Quote from: Abbo1993 on November 26, 2022, 03:12:40 PM
The point is, bigotry as the Anglos intend it changes everyday, I got kicked out of a server because I made a dungeon crawl where orcs where classic dumb brutes and one of the players told the mods I was racists for it (he never said anything in game nor did he express discomfort at slaughtering them horribly), another time was when a guy/gal/whatever tried to dox me because I misgendered them ONCE, I understand racism, bigotry yadda yadda but acting this way will only make you appear like a massive twat, sites like rpg net and onyx path are notorious for this kind of stuff, I don't go online to pick fights nor I deliberatly insult people but most of the folks that claim to believe in "social justice" seem like a bunch of bullies with whom I really don't want to interact with, this site is full of yank politics but you can discuss rpgs without getting kicked out because the mods disagree with you.

Assholes exist everywhere. Anecdotes are anecdotes. I could reply with stories where "anti-SJW" gamers do horrid stuff. This doesn't change the main point: absolute free speech does not work. If you allow everyone, even Nazis or religious fundamentalists, to say anything they want (including copious insults) then anyone who is their target will eventually leave, because they have to take care of themselves. If you want an accepting and pleasant space, you cannot allow bigotry.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 01:11:26 PM
I'm not a hypocrite by asking you to live up to your standards, I'm just weaponizing your compass.

Hard to believe you've not read your Alinsky! 

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 04:39:00 PM

Quote from: Abbo1993 on November 26, 2022, 03:12:40 PM
The point is, bigotry as the Anglos intend it changes everyday, I got kicked out of a server because I made a dungeon crawl where orcs where classic dumb brutes and one of the players told the mods I was racists for it (he never said anything in game nor did he express discomfort at slaughtering them horribly), another time was when a guy/gal/whatever tried to dox me because I misgendered them ONCE, I understand racism, bigotry yadda yadda but acting this way will only make you appear like a massive twat, sites like rpg net and onyx path are notorious for this kind of stuff, I don't go online to pick fights nor I deliberatly insult people but most of the folks that claim to believe in "social justice" seem like a bunch of bullies with whom I really don't want to interact with, this site is full of yank politics but you can discuss rpgs without getting kicked out because the mods disagree with you.

Assholes exist everywhere. Anecdotes are anecdotes. I could reply with stories where "anti-SJW" gamers do horrid stuff. This doesn't change the main point: absolute free speech does not work. If you allow everyone, even Nazis or religious fundamentalists, to say anything they want (including copious insults) then anyone who is their target will eventually leave, because they have to take care of themselves. If you want an accepting and pleasant space, you cannot allow bigotry.

I agree but I honestly have yet to see this hate mongering assholes everybody is complaining about, most of the bans I see are over political reasons, mostly republican vs democrat things, most are sjws labelling anyone who doesn't agree with them on something, and I mean anything seriously, as transphobes, nazis, fascists whatever, the absolute free speech thing was never true but what this people do is called harrassment and defamation and it could get you charged in my country, it is funny since the Italian or most european discords really don't do this kind of things and would, as a matter of fact, ban anyone who would try to act like most people do on anglo sites, servers whatever, I don't feel safe nor welcome in such enviroments and I'm definitely not someone you would label as a bigot, the unpleasentness and frankly Orwellian atmosphere in these place is genuinelly disturbing.

Quote from: Abbo1993 on November 26, 2022, 05:01:34 PM
I agree but I honestly have yet to see this hate mongering assholes everybody is complaining about, most of the bans I see are over political reasons, mostly republican vs democrat things, most are sjws labelling anyone who doesn't agree with them on something, and I mean anything seriously, as transphobes, nazis, fascists whatever, the absolute free speech thing was never true but what this people do is called harrassment and defamation and it could get you charged in my country, it is funny since the Italian or most european discords really don't do this kind of things and would, as a matter of fact, ban anyone who would try to act like most people do on anglo sites, servers whatever, I don't feel safe nor welcome in such enviroments and I'm definitely not someone you would label as a bigot, the unpleasentness and frankly Orwellian atmosphere in these place is genuinelly disturbing.

Wait wait wait...there's an Italian discord RPG channel?Dove?

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 04:39:00 PM

Quote from: Abbo1993 on November 26, 2022, 03:12:40 PM
The point is, bigotry as the Anglos intend it changes everyday, I got kicked out of a server because I made a dungeon crawl where orcs where classic dumb brutes and one of the players told the mods I was racists for it (he never said anything in game nor did he express discomfort at slaughtering them horribly), another time was when a guy/gal/whatever tried to dox me because I misgendered them ONCE, I understand racism, bigotry yadda yadda but acting this way will only make you appear like a massive twat, sites like rpg net and onyx path are notorious for this kind of stuff, I don't go online to pick fights nor I deliberatly insult people but most of the folks that claim to believe in "social justice" seem like a bunch of bullies with whom I really don't want to interact with, this site is full of yank politics but you can discuss rpgs without getting kicked out because the mods disagree with you.

Assholes exist everywhere. Anecdotes are anecdotes. I could reply with stories where "anti-SJW" gamers do horrid stuff. This doesn't change the main point: absolute free speech does not work. If you allow everyone, even Nazis or religious fundamentalists, to say anything they want (including copious insults) then anyone who is their target will eventually leave, because they have to take care of themselves. If you want an accepting and pleasant space, you cannot allow bigotry.

I think I would rather take the absolute free speech, generally speaking. I'd rather address those who hate me and can only throw insults, rather than address those who hate me and can do far worse damage. It's why, even though I buy red-list products, I have to accept that I will never have a positive impact on their outlook. Whereas, I feel more confident on discussions with the more insult happy crowd. Yes, they'll be quite ruthless. Yes, I'll have to take mental health breaks. Doubly so these days as my melancholy grows worse. That being said, I have that option. I have options. They make their moves, I can make mine freely. One wrong move with someone given power over speech, though...Nothing good comes of it. Simply put, people with power are always more dangerous than people without it. Speech is at least an easily controlled power. The power to make someone disappear from a given circle, especially for speech, though, is far too abusable. Though, sorry. I'm off-topic. For the purposes of the list, my rant does have some applications, though. This is the critical difference between this list, boycotts, and deplatforming. This list is information. Speech is added, and hopefully no one goes bankrupt, or at least no products are lost. Everyone gets to exist. A boycott kind of middles this. I will give you that it could be considered almost a democratic de-platforming, though with how the internet works, even if you're boycott, you'll probably still make sales. That being said, it is capitalism's harshest move. De-platforming though...Well, that circumvents the people, allowing a small elite few to remove product, with no input from anyone else.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 05:33:34 PM

Quote from: Abbo1993 on November 26, 2022, 05:01:34 PM
I agree but I honestly have yet to see this hate mongering assholes everybody is complaining about, most of the bans I see are over political reasons, mostly republican vs democrat things, most are sjws labelling anyone who doesn't agree with them on something, and I mean anything seriously, as transphobes, nazis, fascists whatever, the absolute free speech thing was never true but what this people do is called harrassment and defamation and it could get you charged in my country, it is funny since the Italian or most european discords really don't do this kind of things and would, as a matter of fact, ban anyone who would try to act like most people do on anglo sites, servers whatever, I don't feel safe nor welcome in such enviroments and I'm definitely not someone you would label as a bigot, the unpleasentness and frankly Orwellian atmosphere in these place is genuinelly disturbing.

Wait wait wait...there's an Italian discord RPG channel?Dove?

Ce ne sono parecchi, basta cercare, blood manor games è il più famoso.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 04:39:00 PM

Quote from: Abbo1993 on November 26, 2022, 03:12:40 PM
The point is, bigotry as the Anglos intend it changes everyday, I got kicked out of a server because I made a dungeon crawl where orcs where classic dumb brutes and one of the players told the mods I was racists for it (he never said anything in game nor did he express discomfort at slaughtering them horribly), another time was when a guy/gal/whatever tried to dox me because I misgendered them ONCE, I understand racism, bigotry yadda yadda but acting this way will only make you appear like a massive twat, sites like rpg net and onyx path are notorious for this kind of stuff, I don't go online to pick fights nor I deliberatly insult people but most of the folks that claim to believe in "social justice" seem like a bunch of bullies with whom I really don't want to interact with, this site is full of yank politics but you can discuss rpgs without getting kicked out because the mods disagree with you.

Assholes exist everywhere. Anecdotes are anecdotes. I could reply with stories where "anti-SJW" gamers do horrid stuff. This doesn't change the main point: absolute free speech does not work. If you allow everyone, even Nazis or religious fundamentalists, to say anything they want (including copious insults) then anyone who is their target will eventually leave, because they have to take care of themselves. If you want an accepting and pleasant space, you cannot allow bigotry.

Homophobic slurs? Racist slurs? Bigotry, they should not be allowed BUT governments or corporations shouldn't be allowed to ban them. It should be up to the individual(s) owning the space.

Transphobia isn't real. Stating a man is a man, or a woman is a woman is not bigotry. It is objectively true.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on November 26, 2022, 08:54:48 PM

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 04:39:00 PM

Quote from: Abbo1993 on November 26, 2022, 03:12:40 PM
The point is, bigotry as the Anglos intend it changes everyday, I got kicked out of a server because I made a dungeon crawl where orcs where classic dumb brutes and one of the players told the mods I was racists for it (he never said anything in game nor did he express discomfort at slaughtering them horribly), another time was when a guy/gal/whatever tried to dox me because I misgendered them ONCE, I understand racism, bigotry yadda yadda but acting this way will only make you appear like a massive twat, sites like rpg net and onyx path are notorious for this kind of stuff, I don't go online to pick fights nor I deliberatly insult people but most of the folks that claim to believe in "social justice" seem like a bunch of bullies with whom I really don't want to interact with, this site is full of yank politics but you can discuss rpgs without getting kicked out because the mods disagree with you.

Assholes exist everywhere. Anecdotes are anecdotes. I could reply with stories where "anti-SJW" gamers do horrid stuff. This doesn't change the main point: absolute free speech does not work. If you allow everyone, even Nazis or religious fundamentalists, to say anything they want (including copious insults) then anyone who is their target will eventually leave, because they have to take care of themselves. If you want an accepting and pleasant space, you cannot allow bigotry.

Homophobic slurs? Racist slurs? Bigotry, they should not be allowed BUT governments or corporations shouldn't be allowed to ban them. It should be up to the individual(s) owning the space.

Transphobia isn't real. Stating a man is a man, or a woman is a woman is not bigotry. It is objectively true.

Speaking of weaponizing the compass. The problem with moderating speech is always, who moderates, and why. We can't allow Nazis in the space because they'll offend and drive people away. And we all know that everyone "they" don't like is a Nazi...

IAmBecomeTheQueen,

First, if you want to discuss your leftist delusions, Pundit has a forum dedicated to such discussions.  Start a thread there and I'm sure folks will be happy to demolish you.  But stop crapping up this thread with posts that don't directly address the topic (CRT, letc.) because Pundit has been very clear about the consequences.

Secondly, this list isn't for you.  You are not the target demographic for it.  So don't waste your time writing long criticisms of it, because your opinions on it don't matter.  It's not for you.  Just accept that we don't care what you think about it.  It serves a purpose for us, so your complaints are irrelevant.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 26, 2022, 11:21:15 PM
IAmBecomeTheQueen,

First, if you want to discuss your leftist delusions, Pundit has a forum dedicated to such discussions.  Start a thread there and I'm sure folks will be happy to demolish you.  But stop crapping up this thread with posts that don't directly address the topic (CRT, letc.) because Pundit has been very clear about the consequences.

Secondly, this list isn't for you.  You are not the target demographic for it.  So don't waste your time writing long criticisms of it, because your opinions on it don't matter.  It's not for you.  Just accept that we don't care what you think about it.  It serves a purpose for us, so your complaints are irrelevant.

Now, you see, that's the type of exclusionary language that is generally frowned upon. Also, I don't think IAmBecomeTheQueen has really gone too off topic, though I suppose the freedom of speech conversation should probably find a new home. I'm not sure about the historical conversation as Ocule does challenge a branch of historical analysis in the list directly, even going as far as to have it as a reason for making a company red. This in turn, opens the rabbit hole of discussing that angle to discuss the company's placement. Like it or not, anyone may find value in the list, and I should hope that we strive for some sort of consistency that makes sense to more than just us. I guess that will be up to pundit to make that call as to how off the rails we've gotten.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on November 26, 2022, 03:23:21 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 26, 2022, 01:40:44 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2022, 08:52:58 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

So you would support a company hiring a bunch of Evangelical Christians to review their media and remove anything they find objectionable?

The term isn't "sensitivity reader". It's CENSOR. With an element of Cultural Commissar.

I have no objections at all to a company choosing to publish only Evangelical Christian approved media, and hires consultants to assure that. I suspect that explicitly Christian RPGs probably have already done so, like Dragonraid, Vägen, or the Holy Lands RPG.

Companies should be able to hire whatever authors, editors, and consultants they want to create their products. For example, if Kortthalis Publishing wants to hire Christian consultants for their anti-abortion module, "The Good Syma'arian" - they are free to do so and I have no objection. If a company's own hired editor or consultant changes material, that's the company's business and they have the right to do so. That's what editors are for.

I realize that there are people who are outraged if a company publishes conservative material, and there are also people who are outraged if a company publishes woke material. My ideal is if both exist. There can be some companies that only publish Evangelical Christian RPGs, and that's fine, as long as other companies can publish different material.

I don't want any kind of agenda thrust down my throat. If a company wants to publish games that are decidedly Evangelical Christian, Mormon, or whatever, potential buyers have the right to know so that they can make an informed decision beforehand. The same applies to any wokist material, which is why a guide such as this is certainly helpful.

I'm all for accurate reviews of product content.

As for the guide from the thread, I don't find it useful for my own purchasing, but I'm fine with others using it. Personally, I've bought plenty of Pundit's products and others on the Green list, as well as plenty of products from companies on the Red list. I don't find that categorization correlates to game utility of products for me.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 01:11:26 PM
Answering this for the benefit of other readers, since again I don't think you're willing to actually examine your beliefs in good faith.
Most people who dislike a certain product on the left simply say "I'm not going to buy this book, and I would suggest you think about not buying it either".
And if a boycott actually gets a dev to go bankrupt, it's also likely other people will have a hard time getting the dev's product. De-platforming and boycotting just aren't that different in their effect, even if you try to say they have different mindsets.

I don't think your position is "evil", just that it's wrong; created by a series of misconceptions, willful ignorance (which you perfectly demonstrated with your little rant about the left) and copious amounts of hidden fear. I don't judge anyone from things that are not actions.
I'm not a hypocrite by asking you to live up to your standards, I'm just weaponizing your compass. The idea that free speech is important, btw, is also one I subscribe to. And in other fora there are many discussions about historical accuracy, political themes vs propaganda etc. They just do that in a more mature way.

Just to give people an example of misinformation:
- "the goal [of Critical Theory applied to history] is from the start to try to claim that western culture was evil": false. Critical theory does not talk about morals, it attempts to delineate power structures. It can also be used to deconstruct things other cultures did, like the Manchurian domination of Han Chinese people.
- "they never care about any of the atrocities of any other culture" this is because you focus on CT in the west, where... western culture is the dominant one.
- "nor do they seem to demand that any other culture be multicultural or else it is evil" Of course, since its goal is not to call people evil. However, the people who attack social power structures in the west tend to oppose them in other countries too (for example, people who are opposed to Asian people's discrimination in the US also tend to oppose racism against foreigners in Japan).
- "they try to claim that somehow culture and race are tied together" Because they are commonly associated in popular thought. It has nothing to do with biology.
- "try to claim that people of a given ethnic group have no claim at a "genuine culture" because there "were always people of color" in that society" In 3 years of hanging out in leftist spaces I've never heard that argument ONCE. What I HAVE heard is that white people in Ireland, France, Italy, Russia, Serbia as well as French immigrants to the US, white Americans of Irish and Italian descent all have pretty different cultural backgrounds, so the attempt by some far right groups to talk about "white culture" (or, when they're smarter, "western civilization", which means nothing and everything because it's so nebulous) is based on misrepresenting history.
So, if anything, it's right wing activist that I've seen lying/cherrypicking about history more often than not.
- "They find the weirdest cases and the rarest exceptions, which they then try to twist into claiming was the medieval norm" Again, wild unsubstantiated claim.
- "what you didn't have was a blended globalist progressive society in the style of 2022 leftism. Which is what they always want to turn settings into, to suggest the end of history, year zero, etc." same as above. Also, to hear someone who (I presume) thinks Capitalism is the best system we have talk about "the end of history" as if it was a left wing concept is hilarious.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 04:39:00 PM
Assholes exist everywhere. Anecdotes are anecdotes. I could reply with stories where "anti-SJW" gamers do horrid stuff. This doesn't change the main point: absolute free speech does not work. If you allow everyone, even Nazis or religious fundamentalists, to say anything they want...

Wow...like Fundamentalist Christians and Nazis are on comparable levels and neither are entitled to free speech.  There's a word for that: religious bigotry.

Quote
If you want an accepting and pleasant space, you cannot allow bigotry.

...uh, ...no comment.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 26, 2022, 11:21:15 PM
IAmBecomeTheQueen,

Secondly, this list isn't for you.  You are not the target demographic for it.  So don't waste your time writing long criticisms of it, because your opinions on it don't matter.  It's not for you.  Just accept that we don't care what you think about it.  It serves a purpose for us, so your complaints are irrelevant.

I disagree. The list is extremely important to them so they get a new perspective intsead of an echo chamber.  All parties , regardless of social viewpoints, benefit from open discussion and exploring what companies are promoting and doing.

Perhaps its giving Queen a new list of companies to buy from that reflect their life outlook much like it has shown me who absolutely does not want me to buy from them because of the color of my skin, my religion, and whom i do/not share my bed with.

Just updated Delta Green, already in red but check out the writers Twitter Dennis Detwiller this has to be a record for most degenerate author.

Also this guy Shane Ivey not as bad but still a huge cunt.