Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2022, 08:45:35 PM

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 02:54:58 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 24, 2022, 02:29:01 PM
De-platforming is a direct attack on free speech. The list is an exercise in free speech. It simply puts what game designers have said and done in one place for easy reference. Nobody's forcing you to buy "green" games, you could buy "red" games if you want. People talk about red and yellow games here all the time. And nobody scolds them for it. Because the list has nothing in common with de-platforming.

Sorry, that seems slightly naive. The list is made on a forum that (even if users might -wrongly- disagree) mainly consists of people who don't like "woke products". The list is a very obvious way to facilitate others in a boycott. There's the unstated assumption the red guys are bad (I mean, they're in the red part, it's blatant). It doesn't force you to agree, but then again neither does someone saying "this person said a bad thing on X, I'll ask X to remove that thing from their site".

I think there's nothing wrong with a boycott, but I also don't see the important difference with deplatforming. You're not owed a sale and you ain't owed a platform. If people tell, say, facebook to ban your page and they decide it's a good idea, that's their prerogative as a company. Facebook doesn't owe you an account. Just like the customer base doesn't owe WotC any sale.

If you don't see the difference between saying "I'm not going to buy this book, and I would suggest you think about not buying it either" and "I don't like this person so I'm going to stop YOU from being able to buy his book, whether you like it or not!" then you have failed at understanding the most basic principles of western civilization, and you are a fascist.

You're also a hypocrite, knowing full well that you are taking advantage of our principles to speak freely on this site, whereas if we were on a site that follows your rules we would be banned. And yet you want to suggest that our position is the evil one.

I think you are being a little too uncharitable here. The argument seems to suggest that drawing a line between boycotts and De-Platforming is inconsistent. Though, to be fair, IAmBecomeTheQueen is also making several logical mistakes in that assertion anyways.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2022, 08:52:58 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

So you would support a company hiring a bunch of Evangelical Christians to review their media and remove anything they find objectionable?

The term isn't "sensitivity reader". It's CENSOR. With an element of Cultural Commissar.

I have no objections at all to a company choosing to publish only Evangelical Christian approved media, and hires consultants to assure that. I suspect that explicitly Christian RPGs probably have already done so, like Dragonraid, Vägen, or the Holy Lands RPG.

Companies should be able to hire whatever authors, editors, and consultants they want to create their products. For example, if Kortthalis Publishing wants to hire Christian consultants for their anti-abortion module, "The Good Syma'arian" - they are free to do so and I have no objection. If a company's own hired editor or consultant changes material, that's the company's business and they have the right to do so. That's what editors are for.

I realize that there are people who are outraged if a company publishes conservative material, and there are also people who are outraged if a company publishes woke material. My ideal is if both exist. There can be some companies that only publish Evangelical Christian RPGs, and that's fine, as long as other companies can publish different material.

Quote from: jhkim on November 26, 2022, 01:40:44 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2022, 08:52:58 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

So you would support a company hiring a bunch of Evangelical Christians to review their media and remove anything they find objectionable?

The term isn't "sensitivity reader". It's CENSOR. With an element of Cultural Commissar.

I have no objections at all to a company choosing to publish only Evangelical Christian approved media, and hires consultants to assure that. I suspect that explicitly Christian RPGs probably have already done so, like Dragonraid, Vägen, or the Holy Lands RPG.

Companies should be able to hire whatever authors, editors, and consultants they want to create their products. For example, if Kortthalis Publishing wants to hire Christian consultants for their anti-abortion module, "The Good Syma'arian" - they are free to do so and I have no objection. If a company's own hired editor or consultant changes material, that's the company's business and they have the right to do so. That's what editors are for.

I realize that there are people who are outraged if a company publishes conservative material, and there are also people who are outraged if a company publishes woke material. My ideal is if both exist. There can be some companies that only publish Evangelical Christian RPGs, and that's fine, as long as other companies can publish different material.

I agree with you.

Quote from: jhkim on November 26, 2022, 01:40:44 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2022, 08:52:58 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

So you would support a company hiring a bunch of Evangelical Christians to review their media and remove anything they find objectionable?

The term isn't "sensitivity reader". It's CENSOR. With an element of Cultural Commissar.

I have no objections at all to a company choosing to publish only Evangelical Christian approved media, and hires consultants to assure that. I suspect that explicitly Christian RPGs probably have already done so, like Dragonraid, Vägen, or the Holy Lands RPG.

Companies should be able to hire whatever authors, editors, and consultants they want to create their products. For example, if Kortthalis Publishing wants to hire Christian consultants for their anti-abortion module, "The Good Syma'arian" - they are free to do so and I have no objection. If a company's own hired editor or consultant changes material, that's the company's business and they have the right to do so. That's what editors are for.

I realize that there are people who are outraged if a company publishes conservative material, and there are also people who are outraged if a company publishes woke material. My ideal is if both exist. There can be some companies that only publish Evangelical Christian RPGs, and that's fine, as long as other companies can publish different material.

I don't want any kind of agenda thrust down my throat. If a company wants to publish games that are decidedly Evangelical Christian, Mormon, or whatever, potential buyers have the right to know so that they can make an informed decision beforehand. The same applies to any wokist material, which is why a guide such as this is certainly helpful.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2022, 08:36:11 PM

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 09:16:01 AM
Some things in the list are a bit weird. Let's try to correct some things and clear stuff up. I'll start by the obvious:

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM
Brittania Games (Chivalry & Sorcery, Land of the Rising Sun for 5e D&D) "... In this edition of the classic medieval fantasy game we have drawn on modern [i.e. Intersectional Marxist] research to present the Middle Ages as they really were; diverse and rich in cultural influences and visitors from outside Europe. If this does not reflect your vision of the Middle Ages, this is not the game for you." and "... In this edition of the classic medieval fantasy game we encourage you to break away from the bland white, male Middle Ages of yesteryear and make your game as rich and varied as the Middle Ages really were. If this does not reflect your vision of the Middle Ages, this is not the game for you" -Marxists automatically go here.

If you're running a Medieval-Authentic game in the Holy Land, or in Byzantium, or some of the Mediterranean areas, you would likely see (in the largest population areas/cities) a mix of various ethnic groups. If you were in northern France or in England, outside of the largest ports, population would be extremely native. The problem with "Brittania Games" is that they're engaging in the ridiculous bullshit of Critical Theory attempts at approaching history, where the goal is from the start to try to claim that western culture was evil (they never care about any of the atrocities of any other culture, nor do they seem to demand that any other culture be multicultural or else it is evil), they try to claim that somehow culture and race are tied together, and then try to claim that people of a given ethnic group have no claim at a "genuine culture" because there "were always people of color" in that society, but often their examples of the "always" not one in five or one in ten, it's not even one in a hundred or one in a thousand. They find the weirdest cases and the rarest exceptions, which they then try to twist into claiming was the medieval norm.

And note, even in those areas where there were cosmopolitan mixtures of ethnicities, what you didn't have was a blended globalist progressive society in the style of 2022 leftism. Which is what they always want to turn settings into, to suggest the end of history, year zero, etc.

Thanks for setting the record straight, Pundit. Medieval Europe didn't have any "diversity" in the modern American sense, especially since everyone was expected to be Christian and the Jews were merely tolerated (and often not even that). However, what was distinctive about pre-modern societies was their strong local and regional identities and peculiarities. It was hard to create a uniform society in a world without social media, television, movies, periodicals, standardized school systems or mass tourism. 

Quote
Thanks for setting the record straight, Pundit. Medieval Europe didn't have any "diversity" in the modern American sense, especially since everyone was expected to be Christian and the Jews were merely tolerated (and often not even that). However, what was distinctive about pre-modern societies was their strong local and regional identities and peculiarities. It was hard to create a uniform society in a world without social media, television, movies, periodicals, standardized school systems or mass tourism.

The Catholic Church, British, Spanish, Dutch, Aztecs, Hindus, Romans, Greeks, Mongols,  and Muslims did not have any issue at all running kingdoms that spanned enormous swathes of land and sea for hundreds of years without Facebook and E-Mail. 

We are now drifting off subject.  So to reel it back in go buy one of Pundit's book and you'll see how a more realistic take on medieval society was back then.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2022, 08:36:11 PM
If you're running a Medieval-Authentic game in the Holy Land, or in Byzantium, or some of the Mediterranean areas, you would likely see (in the largest population areas/cities) a mix of various ethnic groups. If you were in northern France or in England, outside of the largest ports, population would be extremely native. The problem with "Brittania Games" is that they're engaging in the ridiculous bullshit of Critical Theory attempts at approaching history, where the goal is from the start to try to claim that western culture was evil (they never care about any of the atrocities of any other culture, nor do they seem to demand that any other culture be multicultural or else it is evil), they try to claim that somehow culture and race are tied together, and then try to claim that people of a given ethnic group have no claim at a "genuine culture" because there "were always people of color" in that society, but often their examples of the "always" not one in five or one in ten, it's not even one in a hundred or one in a thousand. They find the weirdest cases and the rarest exceptions, which they then try to twist into claiming was the medieval norm.

And note, even in those areas where there were cosmopolitan mixtures of ethnicities, what you didn't have was a blended globalist progressive society in the style of 2022 leftism. Which is what they always want to turn settings into, to suggest the end of history, year zero, etc.

Of course, a black person in, say, 12th century England is exceptional. But then, lots of adventurers are special, aren't they?. Wizards and clerics are supposedly rare in lots of settings, yet the party can choose to play one. The book doesn't say "there are lots of chinese immigrants in medieval London", does it? You're just exaggerating and strawmanning that quote. Unless you can actually show one such sentence.

But then, anyone who claims "Critical Theory attempts at approaching history, where the goal is from the start to try to claim that western culture was evil" and all that other crap is probably not going to change their mind. If you had read any historical CT in good faith, you'd blush at all the nonsense you wrote.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2022, 08:45:35 PM
If you don't see the difference between saying "I'm not going to buy this book, and I would suggest you think about not buying it either" and "I don't like this person so I'm going to stop YOU from being able to buy his book, whether you like it or not!" then you have failed at understanding the most basic principles of western civilization, and you are a fascist.

You're also a hypocrite, knowing full well that you are taking advantage of our principles to speak freely on this site, whereas if we were on a site that follows your rules we would be banned. And yet you want to suggest that our position is the evil one.

Answering this for the benefit of other readers, since again I don't think you're willing to actually examine your beliefs in good faith.
Most people who dislike a certain product on the left simply say "I'm not going to buy this book, and I would suggest you think about not buying it either".
And if a boycott actually gets a dev to go bankrupt, it's also likely other people will have a hard time getting the dev's product. De-platforming and boycotting just aren't that different in their effect, even if you try to say they have different mindsets.

I don't think your position is "evil", just that it's wrong; created by a series of misconceptions, willful ignorance (which you perfectly demonstrated with your little rant about the left) and copious amounts of hidden fear. I don't judge anyone from things that are not actions.
I'm not a hypocrite by asking you to live up to your standards, I'm just weaponizing your compass. The idea that free speech is important, btw, is also one I subscribe to. And in other fora there are many discussions about historical accuracy, political themes vs propaganda etc. They just do that in a more mature way.

Just to give people an example of misinformation:
- "the goal [of Critical Theory applied to history] is from the start to try to claim that western culture was evil": false. Critical theory does not talk about morals, it attempts to delineate power structures. It can also be used to deconstruct things other cultures did, like the Manchurian domination of Han Chinese people.
- "they never care about any of the atrocities of any other culture" this is because you focus on CT in the west, where... western culture is the dominant one.
- "nor do they seem to demand that any other culture be multicultural or else it is evil" Of course, since its goal is not to call people evil. However, the people who attack social power structures in the west tend to oppose them in other countries too (for example, people who are opposed to Asian people's discrimination in the US also tend to oppose racism against foreigners in Japan).
- "they try to claim that somehow culture and race are tied together" Because they are commonly associated in popular thought. It has nothing to do with biology.
- "try to claim that people of a given ethnic group have no claim at a "genuine culture" because there "were always people of color" in that society" In 3 years of hanging out in leftist spaces I've never heard that argument ONCE. What I HAVE heard is that white people in Ireland, France, Italy, Russia, Serbia as well as French immigrants to the US, white Americans of Irish and Italian descent all have pretty different cultural backgrounds, so the attempt by some far right groups to talk about "white culture" (or, when they're smarter, "western civilization", which means nothing and everything because it's so nebulous) is based on misrepresenting history.
So, if anything, it's right wing activist that I've seen lying/cherrypicking about history more often than not.
- "They find the weirdest cases and the rarest exceptions, which they then try to twist into claiming was the medieval norm" Again, wild unsubstantiated claim.
- "what you didn't have was a blended globalist progressive society in the style of 2022 leftism. Which is what they always want to turn settings into, to suggest the end of history, year zero, etc." same as above. Also, to hear someone who (I presume) thinks Capitalism is the best system we have talk about "the end of history" as if it was a left wing concept is hilarious.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 01:11:26 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2022, 08:45:35 PM
If you don't see the difference between saying "I'm not going to buy this book, and I would suggest you think about not buying it either" and "I don't like this person so I'm going to stop YOU from being able to buy his book, whether you like it or not!" then you have failed at understanding the most basic principles of western civilization, and you are a fascist.

You're also a hypocrite, knowing full well that you are taking advantage of our principles to speak freely on this site, whereas if we were on a site that follows your rules we would be banned. And yet you want to suggest that our position is the evil one.

Answering this for the benefit of other readers, since again I don't think you're willing to actually examine your beliefs in good faith.
Most people who dislike a certain product on the left simply say "I'm not going to buy this book, and I would suggest you think about not buying it either".
And if a boycott actually gets a dev to go bankrupt, it's also likely other people will have a hard time getting the dev's product. De-platforming and boycotting just aren't that different in their effect, even if you try to say they have different mindsets.

I don't think your position is "evil", just that it's wrong; created by a series of misconceptions, willful ignorance (which you perfectly demonstrated with your little rant about the left) and copious amounts of hidden fear. I don't judge anyone from things that are not actions.
I'm not a hypocrite by asking you to live up to your standards, I'm just weaponizing your compass. The idea that free speech is important, btw, is also one I subscribe to. And in other fora there are many discussions about historical accuracy, political themes vs propaganda etc. They just do that in a more mature way.

Just to give people an example of misinformation:
- "the goal [of Critical Theory applied to history] is from the start to try to claim that western culture was evil": false. Critical theory does not talk about morals, it attempts to delineate power structures. It can also be used to deconstruct things other cultures did, like the Manchurian domination of Han Chinese people.
- "they never care about any of the atrocities of any other culture" this is because you focus on CT in the west, where... western culture is the dominant one.
- "nor do they seem to demand that any other culture be multicultural or else it is evil" Of course, since its goal is not to call people evil. However, the people who attack social power structures in the west tend to oppose them in other countries too (for example, people who are opposed to Asian people's discrimination in the US also tend to oppose racism against foreigners in Japan).
- "they try to claim that somehow culture and race are tied together" Because they are commonly associated in popular thought. It has nothing to do with biology.
- "try to claim that people of a given ethnic group have no claim at a "genuine culture" because there "were always people of color" in that society" In 3 years of hanging out in leftist spaces I've never heard that argument ONCE. What I HAVE heard is that white people in Ireland, France, Italy, Russia, Serbia as well as French immigrants to the US, white Americans of Irish and Italian descent all have pretty different cultural backgrounds, so the attempt by some far right groups to talk about "white culture" (or, when they're smarter, "western civilization", which means nothing and everything because it's so nebulous) is based on misrepresenting history.
So, if anything, it's right wing activist that I've seen lying/cherrypicking about history more often than not.
- "They find the weirdest cases and the rarest exceptions, which they then try to twist into claiming was the medieval norm" Again, wild unsubstantiated claim.
- "what you didn't have was a blended globalist progressive society in the style of 2022 leftism. Which is what they always want to turn settings into, to suggest the end of history, year zero, etc." same as above. Also, to hear someone who (I presume) thinks Capitalism is the best system we have talk about "the end of history" as if it was a left wing concept is hilarious.

I'm not American and I really don't want to get into this weird "culture war" you guys have going on, I'm neither a sociologist nor a philosopher so most of your musings fall flat to me, what I feel should be pointed out in the current Anglo rpg community is that there is this incredibly stupid tendency to demonize anyone who doesn't comform to the norm and dares to say something different, even if what they say amounts to "I don't care about politics, I'm only here to sling dices and loot dungeons", this site has a lot of weird stuff going on but one thing should be said, nobody will ban you for expressing your opinion, something that other sites like rpgnet do repeatedly and with extreme prejudice.

Deleted; forgot I was threadbanned.

Ooohhh, this is fun. Popcorn and soda ready.

It's fun watching lefties post in this old thread trying to convince of how bad wrong it is. All the time I wonder how long they're going to last.

Exciting

Quote from: Abbo1993 on November 26, 2022, 01:53:21 PM
I'm not American and I really don't want to get into this weird "culture war" you guys have going on, I'm neither a sociologist nor a philosopher so most of your musings fall flat to me, what I feel should be pointed out in the current Anglo rpg community is that there is this incredibly stupid tendency to demonize anyone who doesn't comform to the norm and dares to say something different, even if what they say amounts to "I don't care about politics, I'm only here to sling dices and loot dungeons", this site has a lot of weird stuff going on but one thing should be said, nobody will ban you for expressing your opinion, something that other sites like rpgnet do repeatedly and with extreme prejudice.

Funny that, I'm not American either. I just follow American news for the fun of it. I agree that there's a tendency to polarization, but I'd argue it has not much to do with the anglo community. It's simply the tendency of the internet and general western politics right now to polarize. Countries that don't speak primarily English, Arabic or Chinese have much smaller internet communities, so people often know each other and the reduced anonimity makes people more cautious with their words.

I find that on reddit, for example, mods on /rpg and /osr allow quite the varied and spirited discussion. They simply don't allow bigotry. If you allow that, minorities are naturally going to stay away from your space, so protecting the free speech of bigots means letting that of oppressed people die off.
I recommend this insightful video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FseXEJ7myk4).

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on November 26, 2022, 02:56:22 PM
Ooohhh, this is fun. Popcorn and soda ready.

It's fun watching lefties post in this old thread trying to convince of how bad wrong it is. All the time I wonder how long they're going to last.

Exciting

As long as it's fun to do so, or until I get frustrated by people repeating misinformation they heard somewhere. Which is likely pretty soon, since I have better uses of my time than to argue against people who talk like RPG pundit.
Other funny thing, btw: I never said the list itself was bad. You'll notice you're putting words in my mouth. As others have said, it's actually extremely useful to know which people to support. What I'm pointing out is incoherency, inconsistency, and the general fact that "engages in anti-consumer behaviour" can simply mean "doesn't allow bigoted insults at their gamestores".

Edit: if someone wants sources to learn about leftist theory, free speech and how it interacts with Nazis and the paradox of tolerance, feel free to ask.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 03:00:08 PM

Quote from: Abbo1993 on November 26, 2022, 01:53:21 PM
I'm not American and I really don't want to get into this weird "culture war" you guys have going on, I'm neither a sociologist nor a philosopher so most of your musings fall flat to me, what I feel should be pointed out in the current Anglo rpg community is that there is this incredibly stupid tendency to demonize anyone who doesn't comform to the norm and dares to say something different, even if what they say amounts to "I don't care about politics, I'm only here to sling dices and loot dungeons", this site has a lot of weird stuff going on but one thing should be said, nobody will ban you for expressing your opinion, something that other sites like rpgnet do repeatedly and with extreme prejudice.

Funny that, I'm not American either. I just follow American news for the fun of it. I agree that there's a tendency to polarization, but I'd argue it has not much to do with the anglo community. It's simply the tendency of the internet and general western politics right now to polarize. Countries that don't speak primarily English, Arabic or Chinese have much smaller internet communities, so people often know each other and the reduced anonimity makes people more cautious with their words.

I find that on reddit, for example, mods on /rpg and /osr allow quite the varied and spirited discussion. They simply don't allow bigotry. If you allow that, minorities are naturally going to stay away from your space, so protecting the free speech of bigots means letting that of oppressed people die off.
I recommend this insightful video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FseXEJ7myk4).

The point is, bigotry as the Anglos intend it changes everyday, I got kicked out of a server because I made a dungeon crawl where orcs where classic dumb brutes and one of the players told the mods I was racists for it (he never said anything in game nor did he express discomfort at slaughtering them horribly), another time was when a guy/gal/whatever tried to dox me because I misgendered them ONCE, I understand racism, bigotry yadda yadda but acting this way will only make you appear like a massive twat, sites like rpg net and onyx path are notorious for this kind of stuff, I don't go online to pick fights nor I deliberatly insult people but most of the folks that claim to believe in "social justice" seem like a bunch of bullies with whom I really don't want to interact with, this site is full of yank politics but you can discuss rpgs without getting kicked out because the mods disagree with you.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on November 26, 2022, 08:33:36 AM

Quote
Thanks for setting the record straight, Pundit. Medieval Europe didn't have any "diversity" in the modern American sense, especially since everyone was expected to be Christian and the Jews were merely tolerated (and often not even that). However, what was distinctive about pre-modern societies was their strong local and regional identities and peculiarities. It was hard to create a uniform society in a world without social media, television, movies, periodicals, standardized school systems or mass tourism.

The Catholic Church, British, Spanish, Dutch, Aztecs, Hindus, Romans, Greeks, Mongols,  and Muslims did not have any issue at all running kingdoms that spanned enormous swathes of land and sea for hundreds of years without Facebook and E-Mail. 

We are now drifting off subject.  So to reel it back in go buy one of Pundit's book and you'll see how a more realistic take on medieval society was back then.

Your reply isn't really relevant to my post. Most empires were basically conglomerations of different territories and states. It wasn't really possible to run them otherwise precisely due to the technological limitations and the rulers' dependence on the local elites. But as you say, it is truly remarkable what the colonial empires managed to achieve, given that the Dutch East India Company, for example, often had to wait two years before it could get a reply from Batavia (modern-day Jakarta). However, the Dutch influence on the societies and cultures in the East Indies was quite limited, at least prior to the late 19th century.