Quote from: Hzilong on November 24, 2022, 06:55:22 PM
As far as I am considered, all sensitivity readers are no different from Communist apparatchiks or Iranian Revolutionary guard. They ostensibly "protect" the public especially in terms of morals. Their real purpose is to make sure no one steps out of line of the party approved political/ideological orthodoxy. If you do deviate they will use whatever means they can to drag you into the square and force a struggle session apology out of you.

I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on November 24, 2022, 06:55:22 PM
As far as I am considered, all sensitivity readers are no different from Communist apparatchiks or Iranian Revolutionary guard. They ostensibly "protect" the public especially in terms of morals. Their real purpose is to make sure no one steps out of line of the party approved political/ideological orthodoxy. If you do deviate they will use whatever means they can to drag you into the square and force a struggle session apology out of you.

I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

Why was PotSP pulled?

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, there were no external consultants, just more editorial oversight. And they definitely did not *have* to pull it. From the first hand accounts, the pulling of Palace seems more like an attack on Jean Wells by a bunch of pretty sexist men who thought she was Gygax's darling. They were looking for an excuse to attack her.

Quote from: S'mon on November 25, 2022, 03:35:29 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, there were no external consultants, just more editorial oversight. And they definitely did not *have* to pull it. From the first hand accounts, the pulling of Palace seems more like an attack on Jean Wells by a bunch of pretty sexist men who thought she was Gygax's darling. They were looking for an excuse to attack her.

Back in the day, there was a rumor that the original printing of Palace of the Silver Princess got recalled because it showed bare breasts on the front cover. This got some women pretty irate. I personally thought it was rather funny.

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

Pulling that module is generally viewed today as a mistake or overreaction, which is exactly how the sensitively readers of today will be viewed in 20 years.

Anyone who hires sensitively readers should be on the red list.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 02:59:33 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on November 24, 2022, 01:07:45 PM
By staing "This game is not for you" that's the definition of Exclusion.  There is no place for that type of context in any game or product. The SJW/Woke crowd uses this terminology to virtue signal to others the amount of Wokeness they have in their products.   You'll notice that other products covering the same topics do not tell people not to buy it and instead let the reader/purchaser decide on their own.

You mistake Courtesy for Virtue Signaling. This is tantamount to shouting at the top of their lungs how "Inclusive and Diverse" the product is by telling a customer "Don't like it, don't buy it".   That never goes over well with any crowd.

I mean, if I told a restaurant owner I'm a vegan and they specialize in meat, he could answer me "I'm afraid this isn't the right restaurant for you, because etc. etc.". That wouldn't really seem combative or exclusionary. I don't know, it seems that people here are giving the least charitable reading to it possible. Which... I mean, fair enough, I'm not the one missing on cool games because of two sentences not relevant to gameplay.

Also, thank you to whoever mentioned Rules for Radicals. It seems fascinating.

If you went into a resteraunt before looking at the menu and then said "Oh i can't eat any of this I'm a veagan"  shows an absolute lack of common sense and disdain for the establishment because you couldn't be so aresed as to look before you wasted everyone's time.  Try going into the French Laundry in shorts without a resevation. See how far that gets you.

Using this analogy further to stay on topic.   The menu would be this list. The resteraunt goer would be "You". And the chef would be the Writer of the product.   

One does not walk into a steak resteraunt and order fish. If you have special "needs" you look for products that suit your needs. 


Hiring Sensativity readers is something large companies do to cover their ass. It's a checkmark in a box and if anyone asks they can say "Oh we did this" and move on.   It's tantamount to holding products hostage as well as grifting at it's finest.   Larry Correia, a best selling author and all round awesome human,  goes into great detail on how these readers are trash here:
https://monsterhunternation.com/2019/03/01/sensitivity-readers-are-bullshit-and-you-are-a-sucker-if-you-believe-them/


Hiring a historian, a researcher, or someone who has intimate detail on a subject due to length of study or work in the field is fine.  Hiring a "Cultural Reader" just because they check a box due to their skin color, sexual preference, or gender is another form of grift that the SJW's have weedled into this hobby for.  WOTC is now letting the "Cultural Reader's" dictate what can or cannot be written before it's written.  That's now how it's done and will do nothing but muddle down a product to less than camp gruel with it looking twice as terrible and tasting like a cow's asshole.

There needs to be a special colour or badge for "Attacked by the Woke and didn't backdown".

Quote from: zincmoat on November 25, 2022, 10:37:54 AM
There needs to be a special colour or badge for "Attacked by the Woke and didn't backdown".

Yes, good idea. And that color should be black.

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on November 24, 2022, 06:55:22 PM
As far as I am considered, all sensitivity readers are no different from Communist apparatchiks or Iranian Revolutionary guard. They ostensibly "protect" the public especially in terms of morals. Their real purpose is to make sure no one steps out of line of the party approved political/ideological orthodoxy. If you do deviate they will use whatever means they can to drag you into the square and force a struggle session apology out of you.

I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

Quote from: Aglondir on November 24, 2022, 10:30:45 PM
Why was PotSP pulled?

Supposedly for the racy illustrations and caricatures in the module. Here's an article with quotes from various people who were around at the time:

https://www.wired.com/story/racy-dandd-module-oral-history/

As rytrasmi points out, there wasn't broad agreement that it should be pulled.

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 25, 2022, 08:52:23 AM
Pulling that module is generally viewed today as a mistake or overreaction, which is exactly how the sensitively readers of today will be viewed in 20 years.

I'm not disagreeing. Hzilong was characterizing it as communist or theocratic, though, when I see it as a cynical business move by management intended to help sales, regardless of whether it is a mistake or not.

Quote from: jhkim on November 25, 2022, 02:22:01 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on November 24, 2022, 06:55:22 PM
As far as I am considered, all sensitivity readers are no different from Communist apparatchiks or Iranian Revolutionary guard. They ostensibly "protect" the public especially in terms of morals. Their real purpose is to make sure no one steps out of line of the party approved political/ideological orthodoxy. If you do deviate they will use whatever means they can to drag you into the square and force a struggle session apology out of you.

I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

Quote from: Aglondir on November 24, 2022, 10:30:45 PM
Why was PotSP pulled?

Supposedly for the racy illustrations and caricatures in the module. Here's an article with quotes from various people who were around at the time:

https://www.wired.com/story/racy-dandd-module-oral-history/

As rytrasmi points out, there wasn't broad agreement that it should be pulled.

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 25, 2022, 08:52:23 AM
Pulling that module is generally viewed today as a mistake or overreaction, which is exactly how the sensitively readers of today will be viewed in 20 years.

I'm not disagreeing. Hzilong was characterizing it as communist or theocratic, though, when I see it as a cynical business move by management intended to help sales, regardless of whether it is a mistake or not.

I thought Palace of the Silver Princess was pulled because of the caricatures, that the artists were mocking some people at TSR. Not because of who might read it but because those guys didnt like getting made fun of

Quote from: Ocule on November 25, 2022, 02:48:16 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 25, 2022, 02:22:01 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on November 24, 2022, 06:55:22 PM
As far as I am considered, all sensitivity readers are no different from Communist apparatchiks or Iranian Revolutionary guard. They ostensibly "protect" the public especially in terms of morals. Their real purpose is to make sure no one steps out of line of the party approved political/ideological orthodoxy. If you do deviate they will use whatever means they can to drag you into the square and force a struggle session apology out of you.

I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

Quote from: Aglondir on November 24, 2022, 10:30:45 PM
Why was PotSP pulled?

Supposedly for the racy illustrations and caricatures in the module. Here's an article with quotes from various people who were around at the time:

https://www.wired.com/story/racy-dandd-module-oral-history/

As rytrasmi points out, there wasn't broad agreement that it should be pulled.

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 25, 2022, 08:52:23 AM
Pulling that module is generally viewed today as a mistake or overreaction, which is exactly how the sensitively readers of today will be viewed in 20 years.

I'm not disagreeing. Hzilong was characterizing it as communist or theocratic, though, when I see it as a cynical business move by management intended to help sales, regardless of whether it is a mistake or not.

I thought Palace of the Silver Princess was pulled because of the caricatures, that the artists were mocking some people at TSR. Not because of who might read it but because those guys didnt like getting made fun of

Yes.  But jhkim's modus operandi is to loudly proclaim "It's always been like this!" to deflect criticism of his ideological bedmates.  We all know that pulling a module because it mocked some employees of the company (and/or had sexually suggestive illustrations) is nothing like bringing in outside consultants to determine if the racial, sex, and political characteristics of the module fit the leftist narrative.  But he continues to try and gaslight anyway.  It's funny to watch him declare "There's no difference " and "Small differences matter" on the very same thread...

Quote from: jhkim on November 25, 2022, 02:22:01 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on November 24, 2022, 06:55:22 PM
As far as I am considered, all sensitivity readers are no different from Communist apparatchiks or Iranian Revolutionary guard. They ostensibly "protect" the public especially in terms of morals. Their real purpose is to make sure no one steps out of line of the party approved political/ideological orthodoxy. If you do deviate they will use whatever means they can to drag you into the square and force a struggle session apology out of you.

I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

Quote from: Aglondir on November 24, 2022, 10:30:45 PM
Why was PotSP pulled?

Supposedly for the racy illustrations and caricatures in the module. Here's an article with quotes from various people who were around at the time:

https://www.wired.com/story/racy-dandd-module-oral-history/

As rytrasmi points out, there wasn't broad agreement that it should be pulled.

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 25, 2022, 08:52:23 AM
Pulling that module is generally viewed today as a mistake or overreaction, which is exactly how the sensitively readers of today will be viewed in 20 years.

I'm not disagreeing. Hzilong was characterizing it as communist or theocratic, though, when I see it as a cynical business move by management intended to help sales, regardless of whether it is a mistake or not.

Hmm, this all makes me think this was the ever lovely Chickites....Meaning, completely theocratic. Something that would see TSR on yellow at least for bending the knee to the cancel mob, no? Actually, that brings me to the overarching thesis on the woke/post modernist/intersectionalist or what have you cause. I suspect they are the direct successors to the religious right. They just changed targets. The tactics are pretty much one for one, and if the Chickites got into these companies, we'd see similar problems.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 09:16:01 AM
Some things in the list are a bit weird. Let's try to correct some things and clear stuff up. I'll start by the obvious:

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM
Brittania Games (Chivalry & Sorcery, Land of the Rising Sun for 5e D&D) "... In this edition of the classic medieval fantasy game we have drawn on modern [i.e. Intersectional Marxist] research to present the Middle Ages as they really were; diverse and rich in cultural influences and visitors from outside Europe. If this does not reflect your vision of the Middle Ages, this is not the game for you." and "... In this edition of the classic medieval fantasy game we encourage you to break away from the bland white, male Middle Ages of yesteryear and make your game as rich and varied as the Middle Ages really were. If this does not reflect your vision of the Middle Ages, this is not the game for you" -Marxists automatically go here.

If you're running a Medieval-Authentic game in the Holy Land, or in Byzantium, or some of the Mediterranean areas, you would likely see (in the largest population areas/cities) a mix of various ethnic groups. If you were in northern France or in England, outside of the largest ports, population would be extremely native. The problem with "Brittania Games" is that they're engaging in the ridiculous bullshit of Critical Theory attempts at approaching history, where the goal is from the start to try to claim that western culture was evil (they never care about any of the atrocities of any other culture, nor do they seem to demand that any other culture be multicultural or else it is evil), they try to claim that somehow culture and race are tied together, and then try to claim that people of a given ethnic group have no claim at a "genuine culture" because there "were always people of color" in that society, but often their examples of the "always" not one in five or one in ten, it's not even one in a hundred or one in a thousand. They find the weirdest cases and the rarest exceptions, which they then try to twist into claiming was the medieval norm.

And note, even in those areas where there were cosmopolitan mixtures of ethnicities, what you didn't have was a blended globalist progressive society in the style of 2022 leftism. Which is what they always want to turn settings into, to suggest the end of history, year zero, etc.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 02:54:58 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 24, 2022, 02:29:01 PM
De-platforming is a direct attack on free speech. The list is an exercise in free speech. It simply puts what game designers have said and done in one place for easy reference. Nobody's forcing you to buy "green" games, you could buy "red" games if you want. People talk about red and yellow games here all the time. And nobody scolds them for it. Because the list has nothing in common with de-platforming.

Sorry, that seems slightly naive. The list is made on a forum that (even if users might -wrongly- disagree) mainly consists of people who don't like "woke products". The list is a very obvious way to facilitate others in a boycott. There's the unstated assumption the red guys are bad (I mean, they're in the red part, it's blatant). It doesn't force you to agree, but then again neither does someone saying "this person said a bad thing on X, I'll ask X to remove that thing from their site".

I think there's nothing wrong with a boycott, but I also don't see the important difference with deplatforming. You're not owed a sale and you ain't owed a platform. If people tell, say, facebook to ban your page and they decide it's a good idea, that's their prerogative as a company. Facebook doesn't owe you an account. Just like the customer base doesn't owe WotC any sale.

If you don't see the difference between saying "I'm not going to buy this book, and I would suggest you think about not buying it either" and "I don't like this person so I'm going to stop YOU from being able to buy his book, whether you like it or not!" then you have failed at understanding the most basic principles of western civilization, and you are a fascist.

You're also a hypocrite, knowing full well that you are taking advantage of our principles to speak freely on this site, whereas if we were on a site that follows your rules we would be banned. And yet you want to suggest that our position is the evil one.

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on November 24, 2022, 06:55:22 PM
As far as I am considered, all sensitivity readers are no different from Communist apparatchiks or Iranian Revolutionary guard. They ostensibly "protect" the public especially in terms of morals. Their real purpose is to make sure no one steps out of line of the party approved political/ideological orthodoxy. If you do deviate they will use whatever means they can to drag you into the square and force a struggle session apology out of you.

I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

So you would support a company hiring a bunch of Evangelical Christians to review their media and remove anything they find objectionable?

The term isn't "sensitivity reader". It's CENSOR. With an element of Cultural Commissar.