Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 12:20:38 PM


But you said yourself that "popular clichés" can lead people astray. They're just giving a heads up, I wouldn't say it's "beating over the head" anyone. Also, when they say "the game is not for you", I don't read it as an insult or exclusion at all. Just... this is not the setting we wrote for, so you probably don't want to waste money on a product full of NPCs and Antagonists that you wouldn't use, setting lore and maps you'd avoid etc. If anything, I'd find that considerate.

By staing "This game is not for you" that's the definition of Exclusion.  There is no place for that type of context in any game or product. The SJW/Woke crowd uses this terminology to virtue signal to others the amount of Wokeness they have in their products.   You'll notice that other products covering the same topics do not tell people not to buy it and instead let the reader/purchaser decide on their own.

You mistake Courtesy for Virtue Signaling. This is tantamount to shouting at the top of their lungs how "Inclusive and Diverse" the product is by telling a customer "Don't like it, don't buy it".   That never goes over well with any crowd.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 12:20:38 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 24, 2022, 12:03:00 PM
I don't know the history of this entry, but you make a good point here. Medieval Europe was a lot more culturally rich than the popular clichés would lead us to believe. Was it as diverse as 2022 Seattle? No. Was it just a bunch of Normans and Saxons swinging swords at each other? Also, no.

However, the quote demonstrates the typical savior mentality and also aims to exclude people who just want to play Normans and Saxons swinging swords at each other. Britannia Games is not the first to realize that the middle ages were more complex than commonly thought. They know that and we know that. So, if they beat us over the head with this knowledge and at the same time tell a good chunk of the gamer population to pound sand, then it's not wrong for us to read that as some kind of political agenda.[/list]

But you said yourself that "popular clichés" can lead people astray. They're just giving a heads up, I wouldn't say it's "beating over the head" anyone. Also, when they say "the game is not for you", I don't read it as an insult or exclusion at all. Just... this is not the setting we wrote for, so you probably don't want to waste money on a product full of NPCs and Antagonists that you wouldn't use, setting lore and maps you'd avoid etc. If anything, I'd find that considerate.

Don't buy the game, if you don't like the setting -- yeah, that goes without saying. The people who take the effort to say that tend to have a political agenda.

Also, if the product is "full" of that stuff like you suggest, then it's an overcorrection. Is this realistic middle ages or overly politically correct middle ages?

They're yellow to me, and I'd have to read their products to change my opinion.

Quote from: S'mon on November 24, 2022, 01:04:00 PM

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 11:45:00 AM

Quote from: S'mon on November 24, 2022, 10:50:08 AM
What is this, Rules for Radicals day at TheRPGSite? 

Sorry, I'm new to this forum's humour. What do you mean?

You're making good use of #4 "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals

I especially liked:
"tried to deplatform others" Why do you have a problem with this? Isn't the point of this list to boycott these creators and make them go bankrupt? That's pretty much the same, you're telling people "these are the people I won't buy from, and here it is for you to use as a reference.".

That's like telling the Ukraineans "You can't criticise the Russians for shelling you! You're shelling them!"

Hmm. Given the right contexts, I think the radicals are on to something with that rule. Logical consistency is important, after all. For example, blaming the Eukranians for shelling Russians is a little much, for the purposes of self-defense, but glaring at them for using an unsuspecting trucker to blow up a bridge is fairly appropriate. The case is similar here. Explain the important differences, and concede things like the historical issue. Which, on that note, that's a tricky one. Maybe best to call that yellow for that evidence. It's a little much to be using exclusionary language, but on the other hand, that doesn't necessarily mean much. Alas, in text, it's difficult to convey courtesy over screaming.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 09:41:42 AM
"tried to deplatform others" Why do you have a problem with this? Isn't the point of this list to boycott these creators and make them go bankrupt? That's pretty much the same, you're telling people "these are the people I won't buy from, and here it is for you to use as a reference.".

De-platforming is a direct attack on free speech. The list is an exercise in free speech. It simply puts what game designers have said and done in one place for easy reference. Nobody's forcing you to buy "green" games, you could buy "red" games if you want. People talk about red and yellow games here all the time. And nobody scolds them for it. Because the list has nothing in common with de-platforming.

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 24, 2022, 02:29:01 PM
De-platforming is a direct attack on free speech. The list is an exercise in free speech. It simply puts what game designers have said and done in one place for easy reference. Nobody's forcing you to buy "green" games, you could buy "red" games if you want. People talk about red and yellow games here all the time. And nobody scolds them for it. Because the list has nothing in common with de-platforming.

Sorry, that seems slightly naive. The list is made on a forum that (even if users might -wrongly- disagree) mainly consists of people who don't like "woke products". The list is a very obvious way to facilitate others in a boycott. There's the unstated assumption the red guys are bad (I mean, they're in the red part, it's blatant). It doesn't force you to agree, but then again neither does someone saying "this person said a bad thing on X, I'll ask X to remove that thing from their site".

I think there's nothing wrong with a boycott, but I also don't see the important difference with deplatforming. You're not owed a sale and you ain't owed a platform. If people tell, say, facebook to ban your page and they decide it's a good idea, that's their prerogative as a company. Facebook doesn't owe you an account. Just like the customer base doesn't owe WotC any sale.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on November 24, 2022, 01:07:45 PM
By staing "This game is not for you" that's the definition of Exclusion.  There is no place for that type of context in any game or product. The SJW/Woke crowd uses this terminology to virtue signal to others the amount of Wokeness they have in their products.   You'll notice that other products covering the same topics do not tell people not to buy it and instead let the reader/purchaser decide on their own.

You mistake Courtesy for Virtue Signaling. This is tantamount to shouting at the top of their lungs how "Inclusive and Diverse" the product is by telling a customer "Don't like it, don't buy it".   That never goes over well with any crowd.

I mean, if I told a restaurant owner I'm a vegan and they specialize in meat, he could answer me "I'm afraid this isn't the right restaurant for you, because etc. etc.". That wouldn't really seem combative or exclusionary. I don't know, it seems that people here are giving the least charitable reading to it possible. Which... I mean, fair enough, I'm not the one missing on cool games because of two sentences not relevant to gameplay.

Also, thank you to whoever mentioned Rules for Radicals. It seems fascinating.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 02:54:58 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 24, 2022, 02:29:01 PM
De-platforming is a direct attack on free speech. The list is an exercise in free speech. It simply puts what game designers have said and done in one place for easy reference. Nobody's forcing you to buy "green" games, you could buy "red" games if you want. People talk about red and yellow games here all the time. And nobody scolds them for it. Because the list has nothing in common with de-platforming.

Sorry, that seems slightly naive. The list is made on a forum that (even if users might -wrongly- disagree) mainly consists of people who don't like "woke products". The list is a very obvious way to facilitate others in a boycott. There's the unstated assumption the red guys are bad (I mean, they're in the red part, it's blatant). It doesn't force you to agree, but then again neither does someone saying "this person said a bad thing on X, I'll ask X to remove that thing from their site".

I think there's nothing wrong with a boycott, but I also don't see the important difference with deplatforming. You're not owed a sale and you ain't owed a platform. If people tell, say, facebook to ban your page and they decide it's a good idea, that's their prerogative as a company. Facebook doesn't owe you an account. Just like the customer base doesn't owe WotC any sale.

Like I said, people here play and discuss red games and nobody waves the list in their face telling them they shouldn't. De-platforming? Go try to talk about certain games at RPG Net and watch them de-platform you instantly.

I'm not sure where you get red means bad. Do you view color as a strong signifier of morality? To me, red means stop and think about it.

This list lets people make an informed decision.  I don't believe in boycotts.  They rarely work, and defeat its own purpose.  This list does NOT encourage people to boycott,or even engage with woke companies to air grievances.  But it lets players who read the list make their own, personal decisions.  I think the information about SJ Games is important, for instance,when they went from yellow to red.  To me,it's a big difference when they did what they did this summer.  Some people here are not anti-woke,and will use the red list as something to look into buying.  More power to them, but the list is there so gamers can make an informed decision on where their earnings go.

And red on the list is meant to represent "STOP", like in traffic lights.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 02:54:58 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 24, 2022, 02:29:01 PM
De-platforming is a direct attack on free speech. The list is an exercise in free speech. It simply puts what game designers have said and done in one place for easy reference. Nobody's forcing you to buy "green" games, you could buy "red" games if you want. People talk about red and yellow games here all the time. And nobody scolds them for it. Because the list has nothing in common with de-platforming.

Sorry, that seems slightly naive. The list is made on a forum that (even if users might -wrongly- disagree) mainly consists of people who don't like "woke products". The list is a very obvious way to facilitate others in a boycott. There's the unstated assumption the red guys are bad (I mean, they're in the red part, it's blatant). It doesn't force you to agree, but then again neither does someone saying "this person said a bad thing on X, I'll ask X to remove that thing from their site".

I think there's nothing wrong with a boycott, but I also don't see the important difference with deplatforming. You're not owed a sale and you ain't owed a platform. If people tell, say, facebook to ban your page and they decide it's a good idea, that's their prerogative as a company. Facebook doesn't owe you an account. Just like the customer base doesn't owe WotC any sale.

Well, you are correct no one owes you a sale, I'm personally, and I think others might be evaluating likewise, the idea that no one owes you a platform. For the philosophy of freedom of speech to work, you must have a platform from which to speak. Likewise if we extend that philosophy to the sale of speech. In other words, yeah, there has to be some sort of market for the market of ideas to exist.

Let's get to the Yellow section:

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Edge Studios (Star Wars, Genesis RPG) Acquired all of FFG rpg line, they toe the standard line and employ quite a few hardcore post modernists

What does the OP mean by Post-modernist? Are those employees fans of Jorge Borges and Eco? Do they like contemporary philosophical developments?

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Hero Games Hires sensitivity readers, otherwise hard to tell.

Wait, sensitivity readers are woke? What does the word "woke" even mean to you if hiring what is basically a marketing advisor counts?

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Talsorian Games (Cyberpunk 2020, Cyberpunk Red) They lean really heavily into IDIC (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations) it's on their page rules. Lots of pronouns in bios, They haven't gone full crazy just yet. Mike Pondsmith, the owner, has been criticized by the cancel mob for not denouncing all cops and even being supportive of good cops.

But... that's not because they're woke, it's because they're cyberpunk. Isn't the cool thing about cyborgs and robotic augmentations that you can change your body however you want? And if there are people with more metallic parts than visible organic matter, it stands to reason that stating/asking pronouns would become more common.
Look at these (https://www.escapistmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Murderbot1Edited.jpg, https://derpicdn.net/img/2019/10/11/2165735/large.png,https://cdn1.epicgames.com/ue/product/Screenshot/KallariScreenshot4-1920x1080-4423efdeb26a2bd60a4da0ac2287dea6.png?resize=1&w=1920 sorry for the clumsiness) and tell me you'd have no trouble saying what pronouns are right.

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Post Mortem Studios (Tales of Gor, Punk RPG, Grimdark) Visit the storefront, can't imagine them giving a shit what people think

Last commentary of the list. It's weird to say PMS is apolitical. Technically that's true, btw, it's just that Jim is really not apolitical on his YT channel. Not a criticism of the list, just an addendum.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 04:44:10 PM
But... that's not because they're woke, it's because they're cyberpunk. Isn't the cool thing about cyborgs and robotic augmentations that you can change your body however you want? And if there are people with more metallic parts than visible organic matter, it stands to reason that stating/asking pronouns would become more common.

Uh huh. Sure. Even the alphabet people are coming to realize that those obsessed with non-standard pronouns are exceedingly fragile and should probably not be allowed to roam about unsupervised lest they encounter a light breeze and keel over dead.

That said, Talsorian Games should probably be looked at again. I don't see any special pronouns on their website or character sheets. Maybe they're green now.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 04:44:10 PM
Let's get to the Yellow section:

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Edge Studios (Star Wars, Genesis RPG) Acquired all of FFG rpg line, they toe the standard line and employ quite a few hardcore post modernists

What does the OP mean by Post-modernist? Are those employees fans of Jorge Borges and Eco? Do they like contemporary philosophical developments?

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Hero Games Hires sensitivity readers, otherwise hard to tell.

Wait, sensitivity readers are woke? What does the word "woke" even mean to you if hiring what is basically a marketing advisor counts?

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Talsorian Games (Cyberpunk 2020, Cyberpunk Red) They lean really heavily into IDIC (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations) it's on their page rules. Lots of pronouns in bios, They haven't gone full crazy just yet. Mike Pondsmith, the owner, has been criticized by the cancel mob for not denouncing all cops and even being supportive of good cops.

But... that's not because they're woke, it's because they're cyberpunk. Isn't the cool thing about cyborgs and robotic augmentations that you can change your body however you want? And if there are people with more metallic parts than visible organic matter, it stands to reason that stating/asking pronouns would become more common.
Look at these (https://www.escapistmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Murderbot1Edited.jpg, https://derpicdn.net/img/2019/10/11/2165735/large.png,https://cdn1.epicgames.com/ue/product/Screenshot/KallariScreenshot4-1920x1080-4423efdeb26a2bd60a4da0ac2287dea6.png?resize=1&w=1920 sorry for the clumsiness) and tell me you'd have no trouble saying what pronouns are right.

First, on the issue of post-modernist, yeah, I think Ocule is addressing people who have a love of modern philosophical developments. Particularly those that relate to gender, race so on and so forth. Generally speaking, wokists. Now, as for sensitivity readers, they're like marketing consultants, but where consultants lose sight of what makes something work through the numbers, sensitivity readers lose sight of what makes something work through the lens of stereotypes. This especially becomes a problem when they start seeing stereotypes where none is intended, but even outside of that, they still perpetuate harmful stereotyping anyway.

As far as I am considered, all sensitivity readers are no different from Communist apparatchiks or Iranian Revolutionary guard. They ostensibly "protect" the public especially in terms of morals. Their real purpose is to make sure no one steps out of line of the party approved political/ideological orthodoxy. If you do deviate they will use whatever means they can to drag you into the square and force a struggle session apology out of you.

I feel like Pickpocket Press (Low Fantasy Gaming) should be added to the Green section. The author stays apolitical as far as I've seen, and if anything has said he doesn't endorse any SJW sentiments.