Besides that, while Wokists use that mechanic, I don't know about simply counting that as evidence of wokism. Though, that discord cements it if I ever saw something that did... As for that mechanic about allowing the players to choose whether or not their character dies, I like it for the purposes of allowing me as the GM to build fights that are actually very difficult without worrying about a tpk actually breaking the flow of a good story. Though, I say that making an rpg that probably won't use that rule. I might set it up as an optional one, though. I don't know.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 20, 2022, 03:28:29 PM

QuoteThis is nanny-state crap from people who know nothing about your table and are motivated by either the desire to moralize or the fear of having their game getting canceled. Moralizing meta-rules are yellow for me.

General gist was political agenda and anti-client actions.
Promoting certain savoir-vivre at table - is natural and expected part of advice. Gygax did it a lot.
You just prefer his lassez-faire attitude more I guess - but on itself unless those advices include ban racist/fascist/Episcopalian/Asian players - they do not fall under this gist.
Just because they remind you of nanny-state does not matter.

I treat moralizing meta-rules -- beyond they very basic "hey the goal is to have a good time and not be jerks to each other"-- as warning sign that the game or game designers are exclusionary and overtly political. And there seems to be a correlation between a long list of these kinds of meta-rules and overly sensitive, woke people. It's not a perfect correlation, but nothing is perfect. We shouldn't allow it to become normalized.

What other form of entertainment has this kind of nonsense? Film? Board games? No. We shouldn't tolerate it in TTRPGs.

QuoteWhat other form of entertainment has this kind of nonsense? Film? Board games? No. We shouldn't tolerate it in TTRPGs.

Those are of course extremely different modes of entertainment - one with fiction set in stone (and of course films have some security measures - like age ratings) and boardgames being way more mechanised. Roleplaying is very different so of course it's savoir-vivre will be different.

QuoteI treat moralizing meta-rules -- beyond they very basic "hey the goal is to have a good time and not be jerks to each other"-- as warning sign that the game or game designers are exclusionary and overtly political. And there seems to be a correlation between a long list of these kinds of meta-rules and overly sensitive, woke people. It's not a perfect correlation, but nothing is perfect. We shouldn't allow it to become normalized.

I can agree there is probably corelation - nevertheless it still does not fall under list monikers.

Some things in the list are a bit weird. Let's try to correct some things and clear stuff up. I'll start by the obvious:

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Brittania Games (Chivalry & Sorcery, Land of the Rising Sun for 5e D&D) "... In this edition of the classic medieval fantasy game we have drawn on modern [i.e. Intersectional Marxist] research to present the Middle Ages as they really were; diverse and rich in cultural influences and visitors from outside Europe. If this does not reflect your vision of the Middle Ages, this is not the game for you." and "... In this edition of the classic medieval fantasy game we encourage you to break away from the bland white, male Middle Ages of yesteryear and make your game as rich and varied as the Middle Ages really were. If this does not reflect your vision of the Middle Ages, this is not the game for you" -Marxists automatically go here.

How does this fit the red criteria? It doesn't lie about its product, it doesn't take a political stance at all, it just clears up specifics about their fantasy setting. Modern middle age research is not "Marxist", is the person writing this completely historically illiterate? I learned in school about Arabs in Sicily, Spain, Turks in Eastern Europe, Roma people and Jews. No shit medieval Europe was diverse. Arabs helped preserve a lot of Aristotle's work which was thought lost, gave Europeans the Abacus (Al-Bakuk), had military exchanges through piracy, the Crusades etc. Roma people arrived from Asia around the XIth century, and Asian merchants sometimes came to Europe (as Marco Polo went in China) through the silk road. In fact, France was visited by Mongol emissaries, when the Khanates reached the end of Russia.
The middle ages also has many important women, from political figures like Matilda of Canossa and various Queens to mystics like Saint Teresa of Avila (who wrote to the Pope) and intellectuals (like Éloïse, lover of Abelard, and Christine De Pizan) and people who were both (Hildegard from Bingen). I could go on and on (Jeanne D'Arc, anyone? Isabelle of Castille?)

If you take away all non-white (by modern standards) people and women from the middle ages, you ARE losing a lot. But they don't tell you you're a bad person if you do, they just warn you that's not what they're offering. Why are they included???    (BTW: not every historian that uses Marxist analysis or bibliography is a Marxist. Most of them aren't, in fact. They simply find some of Marx's tool to be useful, or some later historian's analysis to be relevant. Just to drive home how ignorant the author of the above paragraph is).

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM
Red
Entities who are categorized as Red may have engaged in anti-consumer behavior, deceptive business practices, interfered with other creators or taken a strong political stance or alienated large portions of potential customers. This also includes actual racists or sexist entities. Let the buyer beware.

• BurningWheelHQ/Luke Crane (Burning Wheel, Torchbearer, Mouseguard) It was painful to put this one here because I remember I sort of enjoyed reading burning wheel back when Burning Wheel Gold first came out, it had some interesting ideas however I cannot ignore the fact that Luke Crane and his company have extremely close ties with Anita Sarkeesian (Feminist Frequency). You can find their selfies together online, as well as a report of her position being official on their old forums and any support of gamergate was forbidden. If you're a masochist here is a link however the old forums are gone and there is no link to the original post however you can easily find the interview with anita on youtube with Luke Crane.

What? The criteria for the red list that seems to apply is "has taken a strong political stance". How is an interview strong? Where does the report come from? Also, if the old forums are gone, why are they relevant? I just don't get how the decision works.

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Evil Hat Productions/Fred Hicks (FATE RPG, Swords in the Dark)- Another poster child for woke gaming. Embedded in everything from their forums, to their products and staff. Also produces Thirsty Sword Lesbians with Gay Spaceship Games. Has gotten products pulled from one bookshelf, and tried to deplatform others. Has official stances on politics and must be intersectional feminist to play his games. Openly tells you if you don't like their politics don't buy their games. Too easy

Why does "produces Thirsty Sword Lesbians with Gay Spaceship Games" matter? Is it taking a strong political stance to make a game with Queer character? How does this relate to anti-consumer behaviour?

"tried to deplatform others" Why do you have a problem with this? Isn't the point of this list to boycott these creators and make them go bankrupt? That's pretty much the same, you're telling people "these are the people I won't buy from, and here it is for you to use as a reference.".

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Green Ronin (Blue Rose, Song of Ice and Fire RPG, Dragon Age RPG) - Chris Pramas is a self described member of ANTIFA Link (see his bio on twitter), has a vitriolic hatred for white people, and his products reflect this. Publishes "Blue Rose", the gay RPG. Proto SJWs, they were making political statements in their games before anyone else was.

Small errata: you can't be a 'member' of ANTIFA, as it's not an organization. You can simply be an ANTIFA or antifascists. There are many groups that put natifa in the name, but there's no central structure (obviously, as there are many kinds of left wing currents who participate in antifascist action and the left's never been good with cohesion).

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Kobold Press Chapter 2 of "Guide to Gamemastering" has a whole section telling the reader to "check your privilege" and the whole thing kind of reads like a gender studies course or something. Actively disparages cis white males. Also known to charge writers for the chance to write for them, and then prides themselves on paying them a penny per word.

Kobold is mentioned in the Yellow and the red list at the same time.

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Paizo (Pathfinder)- starfinder even had an adventure where you needed to get a professor at a university to apologize for being insensitive despite being factually correct. No lie, first adventure path.

Sorry, tried to find it on my own with no success. Can anyone show a link to it pls?

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Pelgrane Press (13th Age) "The thing about SWGs (Straight White Guys) is that they make great punching bags. " Still need a citation for this but for now it's going red. Also published #Feminism

Wait, you included it without citations? What about the presumption of innocence?

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Roll20 (Virtual Tabletop) Strongly supports BLM and woke titles, participates in fund raisers for those causes. Also refused to sponsor a live play by taking20, dawnforged cast and a few others because they "didn't need any more straight white guys." Not sponsering the video isn't the problem here, it's their reason is racist as fuck

How is it racist? If consumers want more hot women in art pictures, a company will draw more. If consumers ask for more diverse creator, how is it anti-consumer to not spend money unefficiently? That's basic Capitalism, babe. Jesus, who wrote this? Also, "sponsor" has no "e".

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Sigil Stone Publishing (Five Torches Deep) Just read the last page in FTD Origins. Titled: "BIOESSENTIALISM, RACISM, AND COLONIALISM

I mean, I haven't got the product, so this tells me zilch. The title might mean any sort of thing, like "if you want to include these themes in your games, here's some ideas". Needs more clarity.

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Stygian Fox (The Things We Leave Behind, Occams Razor, New Tales of the Miskatonic Valley) A transgender owner and fully inclusive team including a sexual and bisexuals. Hires favouring trans, people of colour, IDIC, and other minorities. Each book contains a trigger warning system and most covers has 'for mature gamers'. Produces Lovecraftian horror roleplaying books and often makes statements via twitter of inclusivity and stating 'if you're not like us, don't buy our books'. Definitely Red. Almost infra red. 'Woke' AF.

Again, why so much unrelated stuff? Why does the owner being transgender matter? We're talking about political statements in games and by game companies, right? The sexuality or gender of the devs is irrelevant. Furthermore, how does 'for mature gamers' relate to the list?
Also, some formatting mistakes. The original quote lacks bolding on the company title, and "including a sexual" means nothing.

Alright, I'll wait a bit to do the rest to let others discuss. Btw, is the list still updated?[/list]

What is this, Rules for Radicals day at TheRPGSite? 

Quote from: S'mon on November 24, 2022, 10:50:08 AM
What is this, Rules for Radicals day at TheRPGSite? 

Good one!

Oookay. That's a lot to go through. I'll do my best though on points I feel need responses...
First:

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen
"tried to deplatform others" Why do you have a problem with this? Isn't the point of this list to boycott these creators and make them go bankrupt? That's pretty much the same, you're telling people "these are the people I won't buy from, and here it is for you to use as a reference.".

The differences here are two fold. First, this is not exactly a boycott. Heck, I purchase books from Onyx Path Publishing, armed with the knowledge of what to expect from them. On the matter of Evil Hat specifically, well, they make FATE which is free. For that, they at least earn some respect from me. Second, there's a difference between I don't like something, and It shouldn't be allowed to be sold. This list is more guilty of the first sentiment, while Evil Hat is guilty of the second. Note the lack of calls to go to One Bookshelf to have these people pulled. They are allowed to exist.

Quote from: IAmTheQueen
How is it racist? If consumers want more hot women in art pictures, a company will draw more. If consumers ask for more diverse creator, how is it anti-consumer to not spend money unefficiently? That's basic Capitalism, babe.

Indeed, but basic capitalism has had its limits for a while. One of those limits is that you are not allowed to decide on other people due to protected classes. Race happens to be one of those classes. In this regard, Roll20 is acting in a manner that is textbook racism. Heaven knows the torches and pitchforks would be rightly out if the script were reversed. Furthermore, drawings are generally additive. You can always draw more. Dealing with actual people, though...That's exclusionary by its very nature. You turn people away. Doing so because they are insert race here is not okay. Actually, that also applies to this bit too.

Quote from: ocuul
Hires favouring trans, people of colour, IDIC, and other minorities.

This is their actual issue, I think. The rest is really context. Once again, hiring discrimination is not okay.
Generally speaking, a number of the editorial comments on the list tend to be context, though some people may find that material objectional. They shouldn't in the case of the various identities of authorship and all, but published work definitely makes that list.
Finally, I'm not sure if the multi-post was necessary. It's a little spammy.

Thanks for the reply. I used multiple posts because most people don't like walls of text, I've learned. At least, that's my forum experience. Do you know if the list is still being edited?

I understand some of it is context, but it feels really unnecessary. Like, if someone is guilty of hiring discrimination based on protected classes I don't need more context than that. At that point, detailing the devs being LGBT almost seems to suggest that being gay/bi/trans is itself a political choice.

Quote from: S'mon on November 24, 2022, 10:50:08 AM
What is this, Rules for Radicals day at TheRPGSite? 

Sorry, I'm new to this forum's humour. What do you mean?

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 09:16:01 AM
Some things in the list are a bit weird. Let's try to correct some things and clear stuff up. I'll start by the obvious:

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 12:26:41 PM

• Brittania Games (Chivalry & Sorcery, Land of the Rising Sun for 5e D&D) "... In this edition of the classic medieval fantasy game we have drawn on modern [i.e. Intersectional Marxist] research to present the Middle Ages as they really were; diverse and rich in cultural influences and visitors from outside Europe. If this does not reflect your vision of the Middle Ages, this is not the game for you." and "... In this edition of the classic medieval fantasy game we encourage you to break away from the bland white, male Middle Ages of yesteryear and make your game as rich and varied as the Middle Ages really were. If this does not reflect your vision of the Middle Ages, this is not the game for you" -Marxists automatically go here.

How does this fit the red criteria? It doesn't lie about its product, it doesn't take a political stance at all, it just clears up specifics about their fantasy setting. Modern middle age research is not "Marxist", is the person writing this completely historically illiterate? I learned in school about Arabs in Sicily, Spain, Turks in Eastern Europe, Roma people and Jews. No shit medieval Europe was diverse. Arabs helped preserve a lot of Aristotle's work which was thought lost, gave Europeans the Abacus (Al-Bakuk), had military exchanges through piracy, the Crusades etc. Roma people arrived from Asia around the XIth century, and Asian merchants sometimes came to Europe (as Marco Polo went in China) through the silk road. In fact, France was visited by Mongol emissaries, when the Khanates reached the end of Russia.
The middle ages also has many important women, from political figures like Matilda of Canossa and various Queens to mystics like Saint Teresa of Avila (who wrote to the Pope) and intellectuals (like Éloïse, lover of Abelard, and Christine De Pizan) and people who were both (Hildegard from Bingen). I could go on and on (Jeanne D'Arc, anyone? Isabelle of Castille?)

If you take away all non-white (by modern standards) people and women from the middle ages, you ARE losing a lot. But they don't tell you you're a bad person if you do, they just warn you that's not what they're offering. Why are they included???    (BTW: not every historian that uses Marxist analysis or bibliography is a Marxist. Most of them aren't, in fact. They simply find some of Marx's tool to be useful, or some later historian's analysis to be relevant. Just to drive home how ignorant the author of the above paragraph is).

I don't know the history of this entry, but you make a good point here. Medieval Europe was a lot more culturally rich than the popular clichés would lead us to believe. Was it as diverse as 2022 Seattle? No. Was it just a bunch of Normans and Saxons swinging swords at each other? Also, no.

However, the quote demonstrates the typical savior mentality and also aims to exclude people who just want to play Normans and Saxons swinging swords at each other. Britannia Games is not the first to realize that the middle ages were more complex than commonly thought. They know that and we know that. So, if they beat us over the head with this knowledge and at the same time tell a good chunk of the gamer population to pound sand, then it's not wrong for us to read that as some kind of political agenda.[/list]

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 24, 2022, 12:03:00 PM
I don't know the history of this entry, but you make a good point here. Medieval Europe was a lot more culturally rich than the popular clichés would lead us to believe. Was it as diverse as 2022 Seattle? No. Was it just a bunch of Normans and Saxons swinging swords at each other? Also, no.

However, the quote demonstrates the typical savior mentality and also aims to exclude people who just want to play Normans and Saxons swinging swords at each other. Britannia Games is not the first to realize that the middle ages were more complex than commonly thought. They know that and we know that. So, if they beat us over the head with this knowledge and at the same time tell a good chunk of the gamer population to pound sand, then it's not wrong for us to read that as some kind of political agenda.[/list]

But you said yourself that "popular clichés" can lead people astray. They're just giving a heads up, I wouldn't say it's "beating over the head" anyone. Also, when they say "the game is not for you", I don't read it as an insult or exclusion at all. Just... this is not the setting we wrote for, so you probably don't want to waste money on a product full of NPCs and Antagonists that you wouldn't use, setting lore and maps you'd avoid etc. If anything, I'd find that considerate.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 24, 2022, 11:45:00 AM

Quote from: S'mon on November 24, 2022, 10:50:08 AM
What is this, Rules for Radicals day at TheRPGSite? 

Sorry, I'm new to this forum's humour. What do you mean?

You're making good use of #4 "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals

I especially liked:
"tried to deplatform others" Why do you have a problem with this? Isn't the point of this list to boycott these creators and make them go bankrupt? That's pretty much the same, you're telling people "these are the people I won't buy from, and here it is for you to use as a reference.".

That's like telling the Ukraineans "You can't criticise the Russians for shelling you! You're shelling them!"