Quote from: Abraxus on July 26, 2022, 02:15:54 PM
WTH 🤦‍♂️is it with posters getting ban warnings from Punfit yet posting anyway.

At least one such ban was purportedly for a thread-ban that was several months old. In that case, the poster may have just forgotten.

So, I know I made this point before, I'll make it again.

Is this list about PRODUCTS or about the owners of the company?

Y'all talk about what Steve Jackson said, and who he donates to, and so on...

And the list has multiple entries that have the label "advocate for free speech" as if it is a good thing, ... so wouldn't a dude using his freedom of speech, outside of an actual game, be acceptable?

It has also been repeatedly said in this thread that Ocule isn't making a list of "people who agree with a set of politics" but rather about actual products that push an agenda.

But, ... does you all stand by that goal? Is this a list of products that advance an agenda, or is it a list of products made by people that you disagree with?

In other words, are you doing something that others in this thread claim only that the left does: Making a list of enemies to your cause?

Because, we went through all of this. I've yet to see a Munchkin card or a GURPS book that talks about Roe vs Wade, so I'd be shocked to see how it applies to the original goal.

And despite the fact that other shirts often come with rules for their card game, they intentionally made this one without any. They intentionally made this a piece of clothing and not a TTRPG product.

SO, ... they went out of their way to make it so that you can donate if you like to, but you suffer no issues if you don't wish to. It's not as if you have to donate to keep competitive in a game that ... Well, already is intentionally unbalanced anyhow.

And it's artwork he commissioned for this shirt. So, unless you're worried about the reuse of the mascot or paying an artist to make a political statement, well, that's going to be mess to keep track of.

Lots of artists do work for products that you like and yet make political statements you do not like, lots of mascots are used for all sorts of purposes. I guarantee you that a lot of your greenest of greens on the list will have artwork shared with the reddest of reds.

And, as you say as advocates of free speech, he used his platform that is effectively a blog to make a statement, made a donation using his own money, and beyond that... Why do you care?

So... what is the list about? Because, despite protests, keeping a list of people who make public statements that you disagree with doesn't sound like advocating free speech, it sounds like an enemies list.

Quote from: hoshisabi on July 26, 2022, 09:44:37 PM
So, I know I made this point before, I'll make it again.

Is this list about PRODUCTS or about the owners of the company?

Y'all talk about what Steve Jackson said, and who he donates to, and so on...

But, as you seem to be saying "advocate for free speech" as if it is a good thing, so I would expect that a dude ... exercising his right to free speech wouldn't be an issue.

It has been repeatedly said in this thread that Ocule isn't making a list of "people who agree with a set of politics" but rather about having those politics forced into a product.

But, ... does he stand by that goal? Is this a list of products that advance an agenda, or is it a list of products made by people that you disagree with?

In other words, are you doing something that others in this thread claim only that the left does: Making a list of enemies to your cause?

Because, we went through all of this. I've yet to see a Munchkin card or a GURPS book that talks about Roe vs Wade, so I'd be shocked to see how it applies to the original goal.

And despite the fact that other shirts often come with rules for their card game, they intentionally made this one without any. They intentionally made this a piece of clothing and not a TTRPG product.

SO, ... they went out of their way to make it so that you can donate if you like to, but you suffer no issues if you don't wish to. It's not as if you have to donate to keep competitive in a game that ... Well, already is intentionally unbalanced anyhow.

And it's artwork he commissioned for this shirt. So, unless you're worried about the reuse of the mascot or paying an artist to make a political statement, well, that's going to be mess to keep track of.

Lots of artists do work for products that you like and yet make political statements you do not like, lots of mascots are used for all sorts of purposes. I guarantee you that a lot of your greenest of greens on the list will have artwork shared with the reddest of reds.

And, as you say as advocates of free speech, he used his platform that is effectively a blog to make a statement, made a donation using his own money, and beyond that... Why do you care?

So... what is the list about? Because, despite protests, keeping a list of people who make public statements that you disagree with doesn't sound like advocating free speech, it sounds like an enemies list.

In his post on the Daily Illuminator, Jackson isn't speaking for himself, he is speaking for the company:

QuoteWhat I can do, with the support of the Board of Directors of Steve Jackson Games...
...if someone can bring themselves to chat with any member of the Board...
We are also making a donation to the Lilith Fund. And, because we are who we are, we're doing a T-shirt.

Emphasis mine. This is not Jackson using his blog to make a statement, or using his own money to make a donation. He's speaking on behalf of the company, the company is making the t-shirt, and the company is donating to the Lilith Fund. He did not say I am making a donation, he said We. This has nothing to do with an individual's freedom of speech or an enemies list. It is exactly what Ocule said it was in the first post:

Quotea compilation list of companies and rpgs that are woke... to know what you are getting into before you buy in.

Quote from: Aglondir on July 26, 2022, 10:14:25 PM

Quote from: hoshisabi on July 26, 2022, 09:44:37 PM
So, I know I made this point before, I'll make it again.

Is this list about PRODUCTS or about the owners of the company?

Y'all talk about what Steve Jackson said, and who he donates to, and so on...

But, as you seem to be saying "advocate for free speech" as if it is a good thing, so I would expect that a dude ... exercising his right to free speech wouldn't be an issue.

It has been repeatedly said in this thread that Ocule isn't making a list of "people who agree with a set of politics" but rather about having those politics forced into a product.

But, ... does he stand by that goal? Is this a list of products that advance an agenda, or is it a list of products made by people that you disagree with?

In other words, are you doing something that others in this thread claim only that the left does: Making a list of enemies to your cause?

Because, we went through all of this. I've yet to see a Munchkin card or a GURPS book that talks about Roe vs Wade, so I'd be shocked to see how it applies to the original goal.

And despite the fact that other shirts often come with rules for their card game, they intentionally made this one without any. They intentionally made this a piece of clothing and not a TTRPG product.

SO, ... they went out of their way to make it so that you can donate if you like to, but you suffer no issues if you don't wish to. It's not as if you have to donate to keep competitive in a game that ... Well, already is intentionally unbalanced anyhow.

And it's artwork he commissioned for this shirt. So, unless you're worried about the reuse of the mascot or paying an artist to make a political statement, well, that's going to be mess to keep track of.

Lots of artists do work for products that you like and yet make political statements you do not like, lots of mascots are used for all sorts of purposes. I guarantee you that a lot of your greenest of greens on the list will have artwork shared with the reddest of reds.

And, as you say as advocates of free speech, he used his platform that is effectively a blog to make a statement, made a donation using his own money, and beyond that... Why do you care?

So... what is the list about? Because, despite protests, keeping a list of people who make public statements that you disagree with doesn't sound like advocating free speech, it sounds like an enemies list.

In his post on the Daily Illuminator, Jackson isn't speaking for himself, he is speaking for the company:

QuoteWhat I can do, with the support of the Board of Directors of Steve Jackson Games...
...if someone can bring themselves to chat with any member of the Board...
We are also making a donation to the Lilith Fund. And, because we are who we are, we're doing a T-shirt.

Emphasis mine. This is not Jackson using his blog to make a statement, or using his own money to make a donation. He's speaking on behalf of the company, the company is making the t-shirt, and the company is donating to the Lilith Fund. He did not say I am making a donation, he said We. This has nothing to do with an individual's freedom of speech or an enemies list. It is exactly what Ocule said it was in the first post:

Quotea compilation list of companies and rpgs that are woke... to know what you are getting into before you buy in.

I appreciate your patience, but you're wasting your time.  This poster is just trying to Alinsky you.  No set of rules or principles will always work for every case, and these kinds of arguments are just designed to obfuscate.  They have no desire to understand; they are just trying to undermine.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 26, 2022, 11:17:14 PM
I appreciate your patience, but you're wasting your time.  This poster is just trying to Alinsky you.  No set of rules or principles will always work for every case, and these kinds of arguments are just designed to obfuscate.  They have no desire to understand; they are just trying to undermine.

No, I am not.

I am asking for consistency. The lack of which has been pointed out before.

The man may be speaking for his company, but has his company produced an RPG or card game or something that had "woke politics" in it that you would discern if you didn't have a connection to the Internet?

If not, then I question why they get put in the red from originally being orange, when there exists other items in the list that did not get pushed into the red for having politics that were "not part of the finished product."

"There exists no set of rules that works for every case."

It's not about a set of rules that works for every case, it's simply an acceptance that this is what it has claimed to not be.

A list of folks that disagree. And that's an acceptable statement.

But if you say it's not, then I challenge you to find some Munchkin card that somehow reflects the opinion that SJG stated on the Daily Illuminator. Heck, you're hard-pressed to find many posts from Mr. Jackson. He's mostly retired.

And as folks had pointed out many times in the past, the other posters in the blog have had these opinions and politics all along.

But folks are up in arms NOW as if they can somehow put him more red than red because he has right to free speech.

And you'll notice that here, as in other posts, I am going to explain my points, I'll act like a guest, and I'll eventually bow out since I expect to gain no ground.

Because I keep hearing "For a lib, you sound reasonable." Because a lot of folks do the same thing that I have to remember to not do myself, lump the group of people that disagree with me into one homogenous whole.

I understand that there's going to be a difference between Shark (recently banned) and Ocule in the opinions that are given, and when I fail at it, I will accept that as a criticism. And I've accepted counterarguments in the past. I've gained insights in the past. So, you can claim that I am insincere, but ... hey, I know what is in my head better than you do.

And finally, with regards to the t-shirt being made from the company's money.  It's a self-funding t-shirt being made and the proceeds going towards the fund that the t-shirt was made for. IF you don't want to donate, then don't buy the t-shirt.

The game GURPS won't put one penny towards the Lilith fund, just as the Ukraine t-shirt before it.

And the message about "support of the board" was with regards to them providing money to employees affected by the policies of their state so that they can go to another state, not about donating to the charity.

And as you quoted, this list is about TTRPGs themselves, but if it's about the owners and people who make up the comapny, then the statement on many of the entries about how they keep their politics separate from the products is kind of ... pointless? Is it a measure or not?

Quote from: Timothe on July 26, 2022, 11:46:33 AM
I'm not necessarily going to purchase an RPG product just because the author or publisher is conservative. Being conservative, I still don't know what "Far Right" means (i've never met someone from the KKK or white supremacist groups). Fifty years ago what would be cold Right-wing today was Centrist. We have hippie Boomers to thank for today's Wokeness.

Re Jeffro's comment, I think 50 years ago (1972), talking about "a cabal of Jews, communists, homosexuals, and pedophiles" would be seen as Far Right not Centrist. Not something a 1972 US Republican would say. I'd say this kind of strong concern with purity vs contagion in the social body is a strong marker of Far Right ideology, and anti-Semitism especially.

Quote from: hoshisabi on July 27, 2022, 01:32:20 AM

No, I am not.

I am asking for consistency. The lack of which has been pointed out before.

...

It's not about a set of rules that works for every case, it's simply an acceptance that this is what it has claimed to not be.

...

Because I keep hearing "For a lib, you sound reasonable." Because a lot of folks do the same thing that I have to remember to not do myself, lump the group of people that disagree with me into one homogenous whole.

If you're going to disagree with me, you should probably stop making my points for me.  "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."  Look up the entire Emerson quote, just to show you how far off you are.  You are NOT anything other than a normal leftist.  You don't want to engage; you want a confession.  That way you can take it to your internet friends and say, "See, they admitted that it's just a conservative enemies list.  Everyone can ignore it now."

You are just like every other entitled liberal.  You come into this space and demand that others comply with your interpretation of what they are doing.  This list is Ocule's.  Some of us have found it useful and made suggestions.  You are demanding it abide by your belief in how it should be structured.  Yep, you're just another lefty, doing what you've done since the French Revolution.

You want consistency, huh?  Should M. A. R. Barker be on the list?  Nothing in his RPG has anything to do with his anti-Semitic writing.  Should his RPG works be red?

My only disappointment in this thread is that, because Pundit's ego won't allow him to admit that he acted too hastily, I won't get to see a follow up post from SHARK agreeing and wishing for all lefties to gargle hot napalm like they deserve... 

Quote from: hoshisabi on July 26, 2022, 09:44:37 PM
So, I know I made this point before, I'll make it again.

Is this list about PRODUCTS or about the owners of the company?

Y'all talk about what Steve Jackson said, and who he donates to, and so on...

Because, we went through all of this. I've yet to see a Munchkin card or a GURPS book that talks about Roe vs Wade, so I'd be shocked to see how it applies to the original goal.

someone just revealed about Illuminati 2020, and the "woke" agenda cards on it. 

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 27, 2022, 08:30:02 AM
You are just like every other entitled liberal.  You come into this space and demand that others comply with your interpretation of what they are doing.  This list is Ocule's.  Some of us have found it useful and made suggestions.  You are demanding it abide by your belief in how it should be structured.  Yep, you're just another lefty, doing what you've done since the French Revolution.

You want consistency, huh?  Should M. A. R. Barker be on the list?  Nothing in his RPG has anything to do with his anti-Semitic writing.  Should his RPG works be red?

My only disappointment in this thread is that, because Pundit's ego won't allow him to admit that he acted too hastily, I won't get to see a follow up post from SHARK agreeing and wishing for all lefties to gargle hot napalm like they deserve...

Remember when I said "lumping everyone into the same group." You really have little context for my actual views, but you're assuming them because you think "all liberals." I'm a singular voice in a forum that does not share my point of view, so I obviously am different from all of the folks that wouldn't bother to visit.

The fact is, I've had these discussions with Ocule elsewhere in this thread. I might not have agreed with some of his conclusions, but I've appreciated that he's answered questions from me, and others. I believe he might have even taken a suggestion or two from me, he's been pleasant.

As far as demanding, I haven't demanded a thing: I've pointed out where I consider it inconsistent, and if Ocule disagrees, well he's the one putting in the effort to maintain it. In this case, I don't think that I'm suggesting that it's Ocule who is inconsistent. I think I'm talking about fellow posters, here.

I've been careless in my posts, because I've typed without enough editing. I may have not been very clear about this.

But, SJG was ... Already red. Because of information that Ocule received privately. So, it's not as if we needed to move it "more red."

I was pointing out that other folks in this thread that are making suggestions based on the politics of the owner aren't adhering to the spirit of the list.

Ocule maintains the list, Ocule has his goals. The folks in the thread are the "y'all," not him. Are y'all pushing for the list to be something that Ocule has stated that it is not?

Feel free to ignore me, but do not assume I'm hostile. I am not, at most I may come here and chuckle a little, but I have similar discussions with folks who share many of your opinions in my own playgroup. We used to hang outside of the game store and argue politics while folks had a smoke break. Every now and then I enjoy the debate.

(and as far as MAR Barker -- hey, point it out to Ocule, he can add it if he wishes.)

(and I also recommend against commenting on bans and similar, one of those things that tends to irritate moderators of all stripes.)

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 27, 2022, 08:35:01 AM
someone just revealed about Illuminati 2020, and the "woke" agenda cards on it.

Oh?  I missed that, I'll have to check it out.

Quote from: hoshisabi on July 27, 2022, 10:15:24 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 27, 2022, 08:35:01 AM
someone just revealed about Illuminati 2020, and the "woke" agenda cards on it.

Oh?  I missed that, I'll have to check it out.

That was me. Check the thread about SJG's announcement.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/steve-jackson-games-goes-red-on-the-woke-meter/270/

Earlier in this thread I defended SJG as Green. I argued they were non-political. I pointed out how Phil Reed was slammed by the mods at TBP for trying to explain that the disad "slave mentality" in Gurps has nothing to do with slavery.

But no longer.

Here's what you misunderstand: Ocule's list is about products and companies. Not individuals.

(Edit to add link)

Quote from: Aglondir on July 27, 2022, 11:49:19 AM

Here's what you misunderstand: Ocule's list is about products and companies. Not individuals.

(Edit to add link)

That's another thing to note: The post on SJG's policy was Steve Jackson speaking on behalf of his entire company.  I wondered if any employees felt alienated by that.

Also, the company released a T-Shirt with a pro-abortion bumper sticker slogan, featuring a character from Munchkin.

Quote from: hoshisabi on July 26, 2022, 09:44:37 PM
So, I know I made this point before, I'll make it again.

Is this list about PRODUCTS or about the owners of the company?

Y'all talk about what Steve Jackson said, and who he donates to, and so on...

And the list has multiple entries that have the label "advocate for free speech" as if it is a good thing, ... so wouldn't a dude using his freedom of speech, outside of an actual game, be acceptable?

It has also been repeatedly said in this thread that Ocule isn't making a list of "people who agree with a set of politics" but rather about actual products that push an agenda.

But, ... does you all stand by that goal? Is this a list of products that advance an agenda, or is it a list of products made by people that you disagree with?

In other words, are you doing something that others in this thread claim only that the left does: Making a list of enemies to your cause?

Because, we went through all of this. I've yet to see a Munchkin card or a GURPS book that talks about Roe vs Wade, so I'd be shocked to see how it applies to the original goal.

And despite the fact that other shirts often come with rules for their card game, they intentionally made this one without any. They intentionally made this a piece of clothing and not a TTRPG product.

SO, ... they went out of their way to make it so that you can donate if you like to, but you suffer no issues if you don't wish to. It's not as if you have to donate to keep competitive in a game that ... Well, already is intentionally unbalanced anyhow.

And it's artwork he commissioned for this shirt. So, unless you're worried about the reuse of the mascot or paying an artist to make a political statement, well, that's going to be mess to keep track of.

Lots of artists do work for products that you like and yet make political statements you do not like, lots of mascots are used for all sorts of purposes. I guarantee you that a lot of your greenest of greens on the list will have artwork shared with the reddest of reds.

And, as you say as advocates of free speech, he used his platform that is effectively a blog to make a statement, made a donation using his own money, and beyond that... Why do you care?

So... what is the list about? Because, despite protests, keeping a list of people who make public statements that you disagree with doesn't sound like advocating free speech, it sounds like an enemies list.

I have mixed feelings about the list precisely because it comes off like an "enemies list" regardless of any valid justifications we may provide for it, because essentially it IS an "enemies list". So to outsiders it will always look like just an "enemies list" or "hypocrisy (from the "free speech" crowd)" regardless of any nuanced reasons we may provide for its existence because it just takes too long to provide those reasons and too much thinking to understand them. So it's ultimately just bad optics and most people will just turn away with their opinions made up instead of bothering. And people from our "side" immediately jumping defensively to their own conclusions about the presumed "true" motivations of anyone asking questions about it doesn't help, it just feeds into the cycle.

And that's not even getting into the fact that people in our "side" don't even agree about what should or shouldn't be in that list, as could be observed in the huge spat that ensued in the thread about Tekumel's creator turning out to be a Nazi sympathizer.

One issue with the notion that free speech advocates keeping such a list is hypocritical, though, is that just because you believe in free speech that doesn't mean that you're obligated to financially contribute to people who mean you harm or even with whom you may simply disagree with. Granted, people on the other "side" may claim the same thing in regards to "harm", and that's where things get complicated and outsiders to this conflict phase out. But the reality still remains that people from the other "side" have no real evidence of those claims, while we can provide ample evidence of people from the "left" canceling, not just people from our "side", but even people from their side who fail to toe the line or unwitting commit a faux pas.

And while keeping a list of products not to buy may superficially look like "cancelling", there's orders of magnitude of difference between like-minded people sharing a list amongst ourselves of products we may CHOOSE not to buy if we're concerned about who financially benefits from them (what this list actually does)—with ZERO repercussions for anyone here who still buys them regardless—and people going out of their way to even contact employers or acquaintances of people they disagree with, or companies that provide essential services they rely on to run their business (such as domain registrars or payment processors), to socially and financially ruin them and shame them into silence, or prevent them from even running their business (what people on the "left" do). That last part is what actual "cancelling" or silencing of free speech is. The former is just people choosing not to give their money to people aligned with a political "side" that has shown itself willing to actively work against them.

Expecting free speech advocates in this instance to still financially support such individuals is like saying to a pacifist who fights back or defends himself as he's beaten up in the streets "Why are you being such a hypocrite? You claim to be a pacifist. You're supposed not to fight back!"

And Steven Jackson's statement about Roe vs Wade went beyond merely declaring a particular political stance. He also threw generalized aspersions against the "right" and used language associated with the "woke" left, clearly aligning himself with them. He also involved his company in it, so he went beyond giving his opinion as an individual. Though, I don't much care either way since I wasn't buying SJG products regardless.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 27, 2022, 01:03:36 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on July 27, 2022, 11:49:19 AM

Here's what you misunderstand: Ocule's list is about products and companies. Not individuals.

(Edit to add link)

That's another thing to note: The post on SJG's policy was Steve Jackson speaking on behalf of his entire company.  I wondered if any employees felt alienated by that.

Also, the company released a T-Shirt with a pro-abortion bumper sticker slogan, featuring a character from Munchkin.

And it wasn't just about "we support a right to abortion"...
Oh hell no. 

Instead it was a unhinged hyperbolic rant that made references to gay marriage, a "federal binary standard that ...wipes out transgender treatment" (whatever the hell that means), voter suppression (?), anti second amendment rights, a national tithe (?).

...while referring to anyone who might oppose these opinions as indecent, certain named democratically elected officials as "bought and paid for by the people who brought you Trump and Fox News", accusing the right of "viciously fostering" mass shootings, and of course the references to "theofascist" and "national tithing" indicates a rather infantile view of those who oppose abortion on demand as only religious people.

So much hate.  Disgusting.

Funny that you didn't address the first part of my post.  Just to remind you, you posted this:

Quote from: hoshisabi on July 27, 2022, 01:32:20 AM

It's not about a set of rules that works for every case, it's simply an acceptance that this is what it has claimed to not be.

And I responded:

Quote from: Eirikrautha

You don't want to engage; you want a confession.

All of your response ignores this simple point.  No one has to admit anything, because you don't get to define what this list is, nor what it is claimed to be.  The only reason to do so is to cast aspersions at it.  Period.