Quote from: FingerRod on April 16, 2022, 10:47:10 PM
The supporting sentence to the one you quoted was the nuance I was referring to.

It's clear what you were referring to. It's also clear that your "level of nuance" is having a hard time distinguishing agreement from disagreement.

As for "convictions", I don't buy Yellow myself, but you do you.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 17, 2022, 12:10:47 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on April 16, 2022, 05:31:49 PM
..... My two most recent purchases were from companies I consider yellow.

This is an interesting discussion point. I'll admit I haven't read every post in this thread, but would any here care if we bought stuff on the yellow or red list?

I mean honestly, to me, I'd be It's your money, have at it. I'll continue to buy stuff from some yellow companies if it's something that will fit my game.

Would the argument be if I buy stuff from yellow and red I'm keeping them afloat?

For me, all I've seen the list as, is companies that share/don't share the values I have, and they being very vocal about it.

The list is highly subjective as it is, since it's mostly just one person's assessment on things. You can agree or disagree. The point is to have you make your own judgment. No one's going to slap the dice out of your hand if want to play a game that's fun, even if some fukken retard wrote a page of virtue signaling nonsense in it. For example, I think people are blowing this whole "ancestry v. race" thing out of proportion. PEG uses "race" in other products, including their core rules. If this changes, and they start using ancestry in all their products, then I'll concede the argument and say they were right... but from where I'm standing it just looks like a flavor term.

The other question is if you actually want to spend money on a woke product. Let's face it, it's not that hard to find free stuff on the internet, whether it's a pirated pdf or a "free-to-view" site like Scribd or Anyflip. I'm not advocating for theft, I'm just saying that's an issue to work out with your own personal morals. The way I see it, if someone straight up tells me "Don't buy my book," they shouldn't complain if I "don't buy" their book. Either way, they haven't gotten my money. Morally grey? Sure, but I can live with it.

  I do not have any issue with people buying what they want from whatever list.  One thing seems consistent though, the whole "build your own business if you do not like it" is utter bullshit.  This is plain to see with all the tooth gnashing that Elon Musk created with the implication he would allow a much freer platform once he owned twitter.  Very odd all these free market advocates for build or buy your own suddenly shit their pants.

   Meaning the message is clear, you WILL turn more red no matter the business you are in or you will be marginalized. 

Quote from: Effete on April 17, 2022, 02:30:35 PM
For example, I think people are blowing this whole "ancestry v. race" thing out of proportion. PEG uses "race" in other products, including their core rules. If this changes, and they start using ancestry in all their products, then I'll concede the argument and say they were right... but from where I'm standing it just looks like a flavor term.

This isn't the first thing, what we're starting to see is a pattern. They had Sean Patrick Fannon working for them. They made the change to Deadlands history. They changed some of the artwork, and now this. It's all small things, but it's also all pointing in the same direction. Is it enough to quit playing Savage Worlds if you're already invested in it? I'd say no. But if you haven't started, it might be a sign not to, and look elsewhere instead.

Sadly, there is nothing out there like Savage Worlds. IMHO it is the perfect RPG system.

And fortunately, this current edition, SWADE, is also more or less perfect. If they do go down the Red path, I will still be contented with what's already on the market.

Quote from: migo on April 17, 2022, 04:44:42 PM

This isn't the first thing, what we're starting to see is a pattern. They had Sean Patrick Fannon working for them. They made the change to Deadlands history. They changed some of the artwork, and now this. It's all small things, but it's also all pointing in the same direction. Is it enough to quit playing Savage Worlds if you're already invested in it? I'd say no. But if you haven't started, it might be a sign not to, and look elsewhere instead.

I totally understand that sentiment. I love Savage Worlds, and Adventure Edition is the best version of the rules to date (imho). With that out of the way, I'm not trying to fanboy here. I'm just trying to remain objective. (As I mentioned above, PEG has done plenty of other things that have pushed me away as a consumer.) Did they axe the Confederacy in the new Deadlands? Yes. But there's also an entire thread on their forums discussing how to bring it back and PEG hasn't shut it down. These may indeed be little toe-dips into wokeness, and it may get worse in the future, but as it currently sits, Pinnacle seem pretty open to just letting players play how they want (and even use their forum to talk about it). Heck, I've gotten away with some pretty spicy shitposts by disguising them as "in-setting" discussions, and no one on staff bothered me. Maybe my standards are low, but I call that a win.

Quote from: mudbanks on April 17, 2022, 08:53:15 PM
Sadly, there is nothing out there like Savage Worlds. IMHO it is the perfect RPG system.

And fortunately, this current edition, SWADE, is also more or less perfect. If they do go down the Red path, I will still be contented with what's already on the market.

In terms of being a generic system with excellent setting/3rd party support like GURPS 3e/d20 used to be, I agree. Savage Worlds is the only player. But in terms of mechanics, it's nothing particularly special (that is of course its strength too, it's not trying to be fancy, it's just well tuned). You can find something else that has a similar in feel, particularly depending on what you specifically like about it.

This image just dropped https://imgur.com/a/O0FBTpY

So far my confidence in them has been dropping like a rock. This on top of a massive price increase, constant crowdsourcing, and overall drop in quality. Gameplaywise im noticing power creep like crazy but i cant help but shake the feeling its starting to really feel soulless like their hearts arent in it anymore

Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:31:27 AM
This image just dropped https://imgur.com/a/O0FBTpY

So far my confidence in them has been dropping like a rock. This on top of a massive price increase, constant crowdsourcing, and overall drop in quality. Gameplaywise im noticing power creep like crazy but i cant help but shake the feeling its starting to really feel soulless like their hearts arent in it anymore

Black Roman soldier, and FEMALE Black night in shining armor? I dont mind diversity, but this feels ham-fisted.

Crap. and I love me some Savage Worlds.

Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:31:27 AM
This image just dropped https://imgur.com/a/O0FBTpY

So far my confidence in them has been dropping like a rock. This on top of a massive price increase, constant crowdsourcing, and overall drop in quality. Gameplaywise im noticing power creep like crazy but i cant help but shake the feeling its starting to really feel soulless like their hearts arent in it anymore

  They clearly forgot to include a transperson in that pic.  Something else is missing, but I can not figure out what that is. 

Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 01:14:42 PM

Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:31:27 AM
This image just dropped https://imgur.com/a/O0FBTpY

So far my confidence in them has been dropping like a rock. This on top of a massive price increase, constant crowdsourcing, and overall drop in quality. Gameplaywise im noticing power creep like crazy but i cant help but shake the feeling its starting to really feel soulless like their hearts arent in it anymore

  They clearly forgot to include a transperson in that pic.  Something else is missing, but I can not figure out what that is.

No you biggot, they are ALL trans. See? They CAN pass so well you can't even tell. 

Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 01:14:42 PM

Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:31:27 AM
This image just dropped https://imgur.com/a/O0FBTpY

So far my confidence in them has been dropping like a rock. This on top of a massive price increase, constant crowdsourcing, and overall drop in quality. Gameplaywise im noticing power creep like crazy but i cant help but shake the feeling its starting to really feel soulless like their hearts arent in it anymore

  They clearly forgot to include a transperson in that pic.  Something else is missing, but I can not figure out what that is.

Dragon is clearly Transhuminsitic.  I'm shocked the woman in the red twirling dress made the cut since all the other females have more clothes on than a Victorian baroness.

If the damage to Savage Worlds is limited to the art, I will be happy to delete said art from my PDF copy and move on with my life as art provides little for a generic setting rule book.

Yeah while jarring, it's not a deal-breaker because if I'm not mistaken, these are supposed to be extra archetypes unlocked by stretch goals. Besides, I think the Roman guy is meant to be in the artistic style of Gerard Butler in 300. But maybe I'm just smoking copium here.

However, as I mentioned, some of it is still jarring, and if I wanted to really be picky about it SJW-style, I'd say it borders on racism since it reflects "white man's tokenism", where, out of moral obligation, white people add a token representation of a different ethnic or cultural group for representation in a form that lacks verisimilitude. It's vulgar and insensitive, and I'm thankful they don't have Polynesian or Asian people in there dressed up as knights, because I'd honestly feel insulted.

Some of the characters like the Egyptian-style archer and blade dancer are nice though!

Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:31:27 AM
This image just dropped https://imgur.com/a/O0FBTpY

So far my confidence in them has been dropping like a rock. This on top of a massive price increase, constant crowdsourcing, and overall drop in quality. Gameplaywise im noticing power creep like crazy but i cant help but shake the feeling its starting to really feel soulless like their hearts arent in it anymore

My problem with this kind of "diversity" is that it breaks immersion, and i consider immersion to be the most important thing on a TTRPG.

Even fantasy has to follow some rules if you want it to feel beliavable. To something be beliavable it has to be concise, coherent and cohesive. To portray an antique / medieval world as an melting pot of ethnicities where everyone lives happily without racism, slavery and things like that it's not beliavable, is just bland and boring.

And i know that some of you guys think that the art on TTRPG'S books isn't important because you're supposed to imagine the stuff rather than be shown, but man is good to see some artist's interpretations of characters, creatures and places from our favorites Rpg's and it adds even more value to your book. Don't believe me? Just compare any art from Wayne Reynolds with pieces drawn by generic artists that Wotc hires just because they're cheap.