Quote from: RPGPundit on February 16, 2022, 09:28:53 PM

"never allowing them into the hobby in the first place" is not a realistic or workable position in the first place, but more like an emotional response to a situation we had no way of even predicting would end up this way until it actually happened. Arguably the first "woke" people in the hobby (or at least the most notable ones, depending on WTF you even mean with the poorly defined term "woke") was White Wolf, which was the game company that published Vampire the Masquerade, Werewolf the Apocalypse, etc. back in the 90s.

How exactly were we supposed to keep them out of the hobby? Show up at their company headquarters and close them down by force under our nonexistent authority to close businesses down? Show up at the game table of people playing Vampire and trashing their game books?

And all of this rests on a loose interpretation of WTF "woke" even means, considering that "wokeness" wasn't even a thing until the past decade or so, but precursors of it have arguably been around since the 90s, and the ideologies that eventually led to it have been around since decades before that. And by the time that "wokeness" came to manifest in its full glory and became truly apparent, the people who would be "woke" were already deeply entrenched into the hobby.

Hell, I used to be on the "woke" side of politics before this whole mess and I'm not anymore precisely because I'm not "woke", not because my political views changed radically, but because these people became insane. And pushing for forced diversity or calling everyone who disagreed with your fallacious arguments and spurious accusations "racist" wasn't exactly a central part of progressive left-wing politics till around a decade or so. But the moment it did, I fled, while the people who clung to their "left-wing" label became "woke" in the strictest sense of the word.
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As Ive stated before WW Products were "Woke", but really came out as Woke after Rein-Hagen Left...lets not even discuss the current Black Onyx publishing "Book of the Fallen" that goes on a diatrabe about Trump and His supporters being more evil than Nephandi...screams about people hunting gays in the streets...and says if you support Trump or are a republican/conservative your not "Wanted" in their game space...not "Dont buy this" which is shitty attitude...BUT YOUR NOT WANTED...which is fucking Gate keeping at its best (but no we need to keep the moral high ground while they burn the hobby)...the company and writers DONT WANT YOU...but me suggesting gate keeping is bad is "Da Debil"

So how do you gatekeep them...simple...kick them the fuck out your gaming groups...if you own a store and they come in preaching about their bullshit, kick them out the store....you hear the words "Safe space" tell the moron uttering to get the fuck out...

Thats IF you want this hobby to not be destroyed...if you do...keep doing what your doing cause thats working quite well

Quote from: mudbanks on February 18, 2022, 01:02:49 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on February 17, 2022, 03:46:01 PM
Then there are the "normal gamers" that don't like the extreme "woke" positions but also don't buy deeply into this kind of gatekeeping bullshit (see the guy that just posted about those "that should never have been allowed into the hobby"). This kind of shit makes things worse, not better.

I used to be of this position (anti-gatekeeping) until I legit ran into idiots who ruined our game because we tried to be as nice and welcoming as possible. Some were from the wokescold crowd, others were just being assholes. Point is, gatekeeping has a purpose. It's not puritanical, it's not bigotry, it's simply filtering who you want to play with.

as the great warrior poet Dalton once said "Be nice, until it's time to not be nice"

Being warm and welcoming is acceptable but you must be that iron fist in the velvet glove or else you become as bad as the rest.

Quote from: VisionStorm on February 18, 2022, 07:42:20 AM
Hell, I used to be on the "woke" side of politics before this whole mess and I'm not anymore precisely because I'm not "woke", not because my political views changed radically, but because these people became insane. And pushing for forced diversity or calling everyone who disagreed with your fallacious arguments and spurious accusations "racist" wasn't exactly a central part of progressive left-wing politics till around a decade or so. But the moment it did, I fled, while the people who clung to their "left-wing" label became "woke" in the strictest sense of the word.

Same. The moment I realised what being on the "tolerant left" really entailed was when some crazy LGBTQBBQ supporter on twatter railed at me for talking about inclusivity in a manner that he/she/it didn't like even though I didn't see an issue with what I was saying. I decided that was that, and never went back to that echo chamber shithole.

  I completely gate keep the gaming table.  If I am running the game, no way I have anyone with radically different political or societal views from me play at that table.   I do not use a gaming table to make friends.  I use the gaming table to enjoy my time with friends.  I do not play with strangers, I only play with friends and family.  We can talk about what ever we want, and only rule I have is no phones or electronic devices at the table while we are playing (I find setting a 50 minute timer with 10 min breaks every 50 minutes helps everyone stay on game during "game time" and keeps the off topic/phone addiction to the 10 min break). 

    This is because life is short, and I have no interest finding out someone is a completely intolerable ass hat after starting a game and getting a few sessions in.   The reality is, you are simply not going to be my friend if you have a radically different view than I do.  Different is fine, but I have no time to be around someone where there is going to be friction for the sake of friction.  I think this is a pretty easy means to gatekeep, and probably the best. 

  Edited to add: If the first time we meet (in person) and I know where you stand politically in the first minute, we are probably not going to be friends.  People that obsessed either way are IME not going to make my time on this ball of mud more enjoyable.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 18, 2022, 10:32:14 AM
  I completely gate keep the gaming table.  If I am running the game, no way I have anyone with radically different political or societal views from me play at that table.   I do not use a gaming table to make friends.  I use the gaming table to enjoy my time with friends.  I do not play with strangers, I only play with friends and family.  We can talk about what ever we want, and only rule I have is no phones or electronic devices at the table while we are playing (I find setting a 50 minute timer with 10 min breaks every 50 minutes helps everyone stay on game during "game time" and keeps the off topic/phone addiction to the 10 min break). 

    This is because life is short, and I have no interest finding out someone is a completely intolerable ass hat after starting a game and getting a few sessions in.   The reality is, you are simply not going to be my friend if you have a radically different view than I do.  Different is fine, but I have no time to be around someone where there is going to be friction for the sake of friction.  I think this is a pretty easy means to gatekeep, and probably the best. 

  Edited to add: If the first time we meet (in person) and I know where you stand politically in the first minute, we are probably not going to be friends.  People that obsessed either way are IME not going to make my time on this ball of mud more enjoyable.

Bingo! I have no problem with people who disagree with me. I have a problem with people who wrap their entire life around their political opinions, and become very disagreeable if you don't agree with them. Even if I agree with them 95% that 5% becomes a game breaker for them and they spend all their time trying to convince me I am wrong, and then start insulting me when that does not work. And that is while we are trying to play a game!!!! They refuse to just live and let live, and let it go.

That said, I have found this to happen more often with Leftists, but a few MAGA guys have fit into that category too.

I am sure if this is the right place to ask this.  What makes RPG Companies go woke in the first place?

Quote from: TheTechnomancer on February 20, 2022, 06:53:38 PM
I am sure if this is the right place to ask this.  What makes RPG Companies go woke in the first place?

I don't know if it is the right place either, but it is a good question. First, however, you would have to define what you mean by 'woke', because I am not entirely sure myself. Fortunately, Mr RPGPundit recently gave us a definition as far as this list goes:

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 17, 2022, 03:21:34 PM
...which game companies/designers have strong wokist political views to the point of hostility to most normal gamers.

The second bit seems the important part there (though you would have to talk about what constitutes a 'normal' gamer, as I am pretty sure most gamers are squarely in the middle of this divide - they broadly support woke but not to the point of hostility, as Mr RPGPundit defined it).

In which case, I would suggest one of two answers to your question:

a) Probably more for the larger companies, an assessment has been made is that there are more people supporting ideas that are described as 'woke' than those who are dead set against them. It is my feeling that, by and large, they are probably right.

b) And probably more for the smaller companies, because they genuinely believe they are doing the right thing. Just like a lot of the people here - they are simply approaching things from a different point of view.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on February 21, 2022, 04:29:58 AM

Quote from: TheTechnomancer on February 20, 2022, 06:53:38 PM
I am sure if this is the right place to ask this.  What makes RPG Companies go woke in the first place?

I don't know if it is the right place either, but it is a good question. First, however, you would have to define what you mean by 'woke', because I am not entirely sure myself. Fortunately, Mr RPGPundit recently gave us a definition as far as this list goes:

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 17, 2022, 03:21:34 PM
...which game companies/designers have strong wokist political views to the point of hostility to most normal gamers.

The second bit seems the important part there (though you would have to talk about what constitutes a 'normal' gamer, as I am pretty sure most gamers are squarely in the middle of this divide - they broadly support woke but not to the point of hostility, as Mr RPGPundit defined it).

In which case, I would suggest one of two answers to your question:

a) Probably more for the larger companies, an assessment has been made is that there are more people supporting ideas that are described as 'woke' than those who are dead set against them. It is my feeling that, by and large, they are probably right.

b) And probably more for the smaller companies, because they genuinely believe they are doing the right thing. Just like a lot of the people here - they are simply approaching things from a different point of view.

To be the contrary voice, I actually feel as though the "woke" argument is more of a statist/socialist view while the anti-woke is more individualist/libertarian. It is this conflict which seems to be driving a wedge between the "woke" and the "awake", as one freedom protestor beautifully put it. When companies attempt to put social values above individual values, it can make individualists feel a little ignored. Most individualists are used to this feeling, however, having had better emotional responses to being criticized, insulted, or "offended" than many of today's younger generations incapable of allowing other perspectives and opinions beyond those they've been socialized into. When individualists are outright attacked by these companies, often for only expressing themselves in a supposedly public forum, we have some problems.

Why do companies become woke? Because, to borrow the metaphor of Saruman the White being the Wokest of Them All, it seems "wise" to do so. They see the way that mainstream media and government are treating the libertarians/individualists/anti-woke, and they choose not to be in with them because of their fear of backlash. In other words, they try to gauge the way the social winds are blowing... but there is a bit of a difficulty here as mainstream media hasn't done anything but spew government and social agenda propaganda for the past decade at least, so the companies that base their decisions off of mainstream media and what the government tells them are not really acting with all the information. They are responding to twitter feeds and other social media outlets where it seems like society in general is tending in one direction. Interestingly enough, these echo chambers will continually become more and more echoing as the anti-woke are banned from the platforms.

That, in a nutshell, is what I think is going on. At least at a social level.

  Supporting "woke" seems to requires shitloads of propaganda and constant innuendo of a threatening nature to get its support.  So I think it is untrue to say "most people" support its ideas, like BLM.  Lots of corporations gave money very quickly to BLM (though many, like Amazon have quietly removed them from their charity list after more info comes to light) to simply avoid their ire.  Saying most people support the gang that burns your business down or de-persons people is like saying most people support paying protection money to the mob.   

   

QuoteWhy do companies become woke? Because, to borrow the metaphor of Saruman the White being the Wokest of Them All, it seems "wise" to do so. They see the way that mainstream media and government are treating the libertarians/individualists/anti-woke, and they choose not to be in with them because of their fear of backlash. In other words, they try to gauge the way the social winds are blowing... but there is a bit of a difficulty here as mainstream media hasn't done anything but spew government and social agenda propaganda for the past decade at least, so the companies that base their decisions off of mainstream media and what the government tells them are not really acting with all the information. They are responding to twitter feeds and other social media outlets where it seems like society in general is tending in one direction. Interestingly enough, these echo chambers will continually become more and more echoing as the anti-woke are banned from the platforms.

I found this to be interesting.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on February 21, 2022, 04:29:58 AM
a) Probably more for the larger companies, an assessment has been made is that there are more people supporting ideas that are described as 'woke' than those who are dead set against them. It is my feeling that, by and large, they are probably right.

I think it's more the theory of the intolerant minority at work rather than any type of majority in play.

Basically, if 80% prefer Non-woke to Woke games, but 20% will only play games if they're Woke, then unless 21+% of the rest makss a battle out of keeping politics out of games then the game developers will produce only Woke stuff since not enough are willing to not buy Woke products relative to those who will only buy Woke stuff.

Which is, in part, why this list has some of the Woke true-believers' panties in a twist; because it provides not just a list of the Woke, but an easy list of alternatives all in one place. It's a lot easier for parts of that 80% to walk away if they see a viable alternative.

Do you think the companies go woke as deliberately calculated business decisions, or is it from personal decisions made by heads of companies that then seep into their companies?

In some cases I expect there would be companies with woke owners and leaders who's just been waiting for the day when it wouldn't destroy their business.  In other cases there will be companies who's leader's position has shifted.  I think these might be the worst offenders because they're like the fat kid who lost weight or the guy who just stopped smoking.  There are probably, also, entirely cynical folks who've decided they can see which way the wind is blowing.

Sorry to interrupt the discussions here, but I wanted to check to see if anyone had some details on Old Guard Games? I am interested in backing their Kickstarter, but I'd like to know where they fall in the rankings (Red/Yellow/Green) before I back it.

Tim Kask's Curse of the Weaver Queen | Expanded Box Set
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/oldguardgames/curse-of-the-weaver-queen?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=Old%20guard%20games

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks

Quote from: aztecman on February 21, 2022, 02:54:53 PM
Sorry to interrupt the discussions here, but I wanted to check to see if anyone had some details on Old Guard Games? I am interested in backing their Kickstarter, but I'd like to know where they fall in the rankings (Red/Yellow/Green) before I back it.

Tim Kask's Curse of the Weaver Queen | Expanded Box Set
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/oldguardgames/curse-of-the-weaver-queen?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=Old%20guard%20games

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks

  I will give you my honest feedback.  If that is something you really think you would like to have and play, back it.   I know that goes against some of the grain, but reality is I find it easy to separate artist and art.  Unless someone has gone on a mile long tirade about hating me, I can overlook some bullshit.  Just my 2 cents.  I can say if it is on kickstarter, there is a good chance it had to pass through their "screeners", so yellow would be a bet in the dark from me.

  Edited to add:  Tim Kask seems as old school as it gets, for what that is worth.