Well, blah.

Quote from: tstone on November 17, 2021, 04:23:45 PM
Hi, new to the group and love this thread and group.

I'll also first post this thread.

QuoteOnyx Path is down in Red. ... But as a customer of theirs, I have to disagree.

The reasoning is given in the first post:
"Heavily enforces political requirements in their communities, games are full of post modernist and leftist themes and preaching to no end. "

Doesn't that put them squarely in the category of red?  The description for red (at least these days, older archives have an earlier definition) contains:  "...may have engaged in anti-consumer behavior, deceptive business practices, interfered with other creators or taken a strong political stance or alienated large portions of potential customers..."

That applies, yes?

Here's a podcast by their devs:
https://onyxpathcast.podbean.com/e/episode-108-tired-but-hyped-about-onyx-path-con/
Opens with the statement that white people shouldn't discuss "black concerns" (aka your skin color determines whether your opinion matters), and then they say that there's no debate about their issue of the day (BLM).  This is the devs themselves, on a podcast that no one tricked them into doing- this is their position, and they are proud of it.
Here's a fun thread on content put out by this publisher:
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-masquerade/1385385-v5-racism-sexism-and-other-problematic-content
This is representative of HIGHLY politicized content- you would never expect this kind of thing in a game that wasn't trying to tie into real world racial and other identity politics.

QuoteSome of the fanbase is looney Left

Eh, good for them.  This is about making it public which developers hate us for existing, not about getting in a culture war with other fans.  People have always had political debates in forums or at the table or in bars.  That was never a problem, everyone is absolutely entitled to their own beliefs and speech.  As far as I'm concerned, the problem is that once a general viewpoint became so powerful that arguing with it was enough to get pitchforks out (and usually get you kicked off of marketing platforms, social media platforms, having your mass email service cancel your account, sometimes having your domain seized unilaterally, etc.), it became a serious issue, with these online activists becoming extremely emboldened and intolerant... and it would generally feel good to have a list of companies where your dollars aren't explicitly funding you getting kicked in the teeth.  At least that's my take on why this thread is good.

Quotebut there is a huge portion of conservatives as well as rpgers who love the world and don't have time for the culture war nonsense

So?  Hasbro has huge numbers of players of all political beliefs, but they are willing to put their foot down on their necks constantly.  Would anyone seriously suggest WotC not be in red?

Quote from: Venka on November 17, 2021, 05:50:28 PM
Here's a fun thread on content put out by this publisher:
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-masquerade/1385385-v5-racism-sexism-and-other-problematic-content
This is representative of HIGHLY politicized content- you would never expect this kind of thing in a game that wasn't trying to tie into real world racial and other identity politics.

"Obnoxiously Male". Gotta' love their inclusive language. 'Equality for all' unless your white and male of course - then it's pogrom time.

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on November 17, 2021, 12:27:06 PM
Due to the recent Interface RED release from R. Talsorian Games, I would be inclined to make them Yellow leaning more and more red (ironically). Most recent release essentially includes the Cyberpunk version of the infamous combat wheelchair and caves a bit to the woke.

That wheelchair file has been attached to the pdf of thr core rules for months.

Oh certainly, Venka, the thread is good. I mostly am talking about the games themselves and how well they carry on the tradition established by White Wolf of old. Are some of their devs douches with crap takes? Probably. But as long as the games don't alienate or seek to chase away fanbase based on politics, I question the company being in the red category. More yellow.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 17, 2021, 06:13:24 PM

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on November 17, 2021, 12:27:06 PM
Due to the recent Interface RED release from R. Talsorian Games, I would be inclined to make them Yellow leaning more and more red (ironically). Most recent release essentially includes the Cyberpunk version of the infamous combat wheelchair and caves a bit to the woke.

That wheelchair file has been attached to the pdf of thr core rules for months.

That's almost more upsetting, didn't even notice because I use the physical copy when I run stuff. Guess it's time to see how SWN can run Cyberpunk since the namesake dropped the 'punk'.

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on November 18, 2021, 08:21:44 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 17, 2021, 06:13:24 PM

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on November 17, 2021, 12:27:06 PM
Due to the recent Interface RED release from R. Talsorian Games, I would be inclined to make them Yellow leaning more and more red (ironically). Most recent release essentially includes the Cyberpunk version of the infamous combat wheelchair and caves a bit to the woke.

That wheelchair file has been attached to the pdf of thr core rules for months.

That's almost more upsetting, didn't even notice because I use the physical copy when I run stuff. Guess it's time to see how SWN can run Cyberpunk since the namesake dropped the 'punk'.

Why? If you didn't even notice it, why be upset? Including stuff like this shouldn't be a problem when it's not being shoved down your throat. I don't consider the mere existence of this file to be problem, and adding it without a lot of fanfare is far different from the commonly voiced "they're forcing this into the game" Chicken Little ravings.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 18, 2021, 08:44:24 AM

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on November 18, 2021, 08:21:44 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 17, 2021, 06:13:24 PM

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on November 17, 2021, 12:27:06 PM
Due to the recent Interface RED release from R. Talsorian Games, I would be inclined to make them Yellow leaning more and more red (ironically). Most recent release essentially includes the Cyberpunk version of the infamous combat wheelchair and caves a bit to the woke.

That wheelchair file has been attached to the pdf of thr core rules for months.

That's almost more upsetting, didn't even notice because I use the physical copy when I run stuff. Guess it's time to see how SWN can run Cyberpunk since the namesake dropped the 'punk'.

Why? If you didn't even notice it, why be upset? Including stuff like this shouldn't be a problem when it's not being shoved down your throat. I don't consider the mere existence of this file to be problem, and adding it without a lot of fanfare is far different from the commonly voiced "they're forcing this into the game" Chicken Little ravings.

It's upsetting because, while it isn't in the main book proper at the moment, the fact that they've started to release this means it won't stop them in the future. Like how Goodman went full woke, if it isn't called out early then it'll just grow and grow.

When a company chooses to embrace a thoroughly toxic ideology it doesn't matter if they make it public or not - supporting them only risks metastasis.

More companies for Ocule to add to the Green list:

- Stellagama Publishing (Cepheus, TSAO: These Stars Are Ours!) They seem to be apolitical, or at least not shoving their opinions down one's throat (I've seen Josh Peters posting on this forum too). Plus Cepheus is great.
- Heroic Maps They were part of a bundle where the proceeds went to some bundles related to BLM in 2020, but otherwise seem apolitical. Joe and Sarah are really nice people too.

For the Yellow list:
- Loke Battlemats Have pronouns on their Twitter and had voiced support for BLM before on Facebook (at one point their About section was just "We unequivocally support Black Lives Matter" or something along those lines). I also remember them dropping sponsorship of one guy who had questioned left-wing politics on Twitter and who was a known Trump supporter, though I'm unable to find the tweet where they had publicly declared it. The guy whom they had dropped wasn't even rude in his posts, but the crazies started to spam Matt and Tam about how he was a known fascist (I couldn't find anything that would make him a Nazi, when I did some digging at the time).

I'd just like to add that lots of well meaning, ignorant, folks supported BLM for awhile. I'm sure we will all be in a hundred conversations in the next month explaining that Rittenhouse actually shot three white guys. I have low tolerance for the ignorant that spew but think they don't belong on the red list.

Quote from: mudbanks on November 20, 2021, 08:44:58 AM
- Heroic Maps They were part of a bundle where the proceeds went to some bundles related to BLM in 2020, but otherwise seem apolitical. Joe and Sarah are really nice people too.

I don't know Heroic Maps but support them being added to the Green list if that's the only thing against them.

Quote from: Altered on September 18, 2021, 05:27:01 PM
A few years ago I had some disruptive life experiences.  Realizing I needed a hobby, I remembered some nostalgic fun that would
not only keep my mind busy, but would also encourage my creative side and would encourage me to interact with others again. As such,
I revisited a loved and known commodity from my early years, D&D.

The current version at the time was 5e.  I bought the players handbook and read it from beginning to end. It was a good system. I
bought every book that was released up to that point in time in both hard cover and for my favorite VTT. Note that this
was probably over a thousand dollars of investment. I joined a great group and we had a great time.

Then an unfortunate decision occurred.  WOTC decided that they needed to combine Magic with D&D.  I read about Magic and noted
that magic was inundated with issues and questionable practices . At this point, WOTC also seemed to stop listening to what the fan
base wanted.   

Shortly after, I started realizing that the system resulted in OP characters and no sense of the adventure I experienced in my
younger years. It was so easy to min max everything.  Every group had that one player that could destroy the entire encounter without
sweat or sense of anxiety that made the original so much fun. There were times that every player in the group "skipped" their turn
except for the marysue that could basically do everything.  What fun is that?  Yes, I already know, the DM can controll this. One even tried.
This caused even more issues. People started getting offended.

Pun intended, it got "progressively" worse from there. Orcs became a racist trope. They turned every race into marysue humans.
They basically told me that they didn't want the average person who never even contemplated that an ORC was in any way associated
with a black person to buy their product. They added sections in books on how to behave. Really? The result?  I have now saved
well over 600 dollars I would have spent. Originally, I was hoping to have the entire collection as I now have the money to buy it.
They have released over 7 books since my last purchase in both print and VTT since that point. I have bought 0.

In a nutshell, I don't need a company to tell me how to behave. I don't need a company to tell me what to think. I don't need a company to tell me what
to feel. I don't need some bullshit company to tell me how to treat people or how to play a game.  I had wonderful parents that
taught me those things.  I also grew up with diverse friendships from a very young age. This extended all the way through adulthood, values
that transcended continents. I stress this occurred before "they" decided to try to "teach" me how I was supposed to approach life.
I was actually disappointed that WOTC managed to alter my perspective on TTRPG. These people are ass hats.

As such, despite buying all of the books all the way to MORDENKAINEN'S TOME OF FOES in hardcover and VTT, I found that I could no longer support a TTRPG
company that didn't even seem to understand the fact that TTRPG was always inclusive and always welcoming. What I found most funny was that none of the modern purveyors of TTRPG realize that the people that truly made the
hobby great were the counter culture of the time, the ones ostracized for their interests. There was never a time we could not change the rules for any
given campaign. We could always give various races different characteristics. We did not need permission. Creativity had no bounds.
We explored boundaries. In fact as a kid, we had an Orc join the party before we realized that they were some allegory. The Orc was
lawful and was loved and adopted by the other players.  Enough said!

The Result? I began exploring other rule sets and companies.  In the end, I am actually "thankful" that certain companies followed the path they chose to follow. 
What I found funny was that the ones I gravitated to were in the green list.  A couple of them have now received hundreds of dollars in
support of their products. The others will become the twitter of games, totally lacking in enlightenment or creativity, an echo
chamber of their own making filled with people that can't find games.

Question to RPGPUNDIT. Have you ever considered entering the VTT market.  Thinking your products would sell in that market.

I love Dungeons and Dragons, but for me, the version that truly encapsulated what the game is about, tales of yore, unapologetic, politically incorrect tropes, and heroic action and adventure, as well as thoughts of mystery and mysticism from ages past, were the original editions through 1st edition ADnD, and parts of 2nd. The people who created it knew and loved those stories and literature, history and culture and did not see the need to explain or apologize for any of it, to the religious zealots who came after it and its fans back then, and to the SJW psychos now.

That is the game as it should be. That is the game I will always be a fan of.

Definitely agree about Stellagama publishing.

Dark Wizard Games has remained apolitical. They make the gonzo adventures with a retro feel.

Full disclosure I have worked for this company. This is also how I know the main guy doesn't get into politics and just does his thing. Very nice to work with, polite and not political.

Quote from: bat on November 21, 2021, 07:10:51 PM
Dark Wizard Games has remained apolitical. They make the gonzo adventures with a retro feel.

Full disclosure I have worked for this company. This is also how I know the main guy doesn't get into politics and just does his thing. Very nice to work with, polite and not political.

Yep, classic era homage adventures. Good stuff.