Quote from: soundchaser on November 05, 2021, 02:12:20 PM
It seems comics these days are just SJW porn.

At least the ones from the big 5 are, you can find some good stuff in the new indie market developing, but you need to look for it or have some non-woke people recommend you some. (BTW cyberfrog is shit and it was shit since EVS first created it).

I see things like "a massive success" for a RPG with 8000 sales (ok, a kickstarter with 8000 backers), and I'm just struck with the question of: where did the people who bought RPGs go? When I was in the industry, we were always a small game company, but the print runs on our supplements were 3-5k. Our best selling core book did 30k units. We weren't big. That wasn't a massive success. This is getting close to 20 years ago now, but still, the difference in numbers always astounds me.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 04, 2021, 10:26:42 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 04, 2021, 08:36:54 PM

Quote from: SHARK on November 02, 2021, 06:49:33 PM
Greetings!

Mothership has a fairly well-established fan-base. From what I know, the company that publishes Mothership has been around for  bit, and is a larger operation than Venger Satanis.

I'm not surprised that the Mothership Kickstarter has been wildly successful.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

More importantly, the people who write Mothership were extremely careful NOT to put any sign of their politics in the Kickstarter. Read the whole kickstarter; it has lots of cool looking art, they talk about how long they claim they've been playing RPGs, they put a picture of a D&D box set and a Traveller Box set to make it look like those are favorite games of theirs. There isn't one single mention of their very left wing politics, identity politics, nothing mentioned at all about any leftist themes. The impression is done on purpose to make regular gamers think this is a regular RPG being made for regular gamers.

It's a totally different tactic from the type of things the more Virtue Signaling SJW companies do, it's much more cowardly, it's intentionally DECIEVING potential customers making them think they're buying one type of product when what they'll actually get is a different kind, and its EXACTLY THE REASON for why we need this consumer warning guide.

Anyone who looks at games like Swordsfall or Thirsty Sword Lesbians will immediately realize that those games are ultra-politicized. But the Mothership people LIE TO YOU to make you think it's not.

And that's why tubesock is here. It's freaked out that the deceptive tactics are being exposed.

Another thing, why is it bad that the Mothership guys didn't put politics into their kickstarter? If you agreed with their views, that alone would put them on the "Green" list. I mean, do you include a link to your blog in your products? Because I'll bet you don't. Why are TKG "hiding" something, but you're not? Or Autarch isn't?

To somehow imply that the MASSIVE success of this Kickstarter is all down to gullible rubes who have no idea what the people behind the game believe is some big "sour grapes" energy.

Because the Mothership people represent a political ideology that hates D&D, and yet they put out the white box there as if it's their "favorite game". Their political ideology demands that me and my products be banned, and gamers be controlled.

That's the difference. Ordinary gamers are not giving their money to someone who despises them when they buy my game. They are giving money to someone who despises them when they buy Mothership.

Quote from: Aglondir on November 04, 2021, 10:33:02 PM
Mothership looks great. A simple D100 roll-under chassis, with some really cool ideas bolted on. I love the flowchart style.

But the more I look at it, I think "You could do this with OSR." The special sauce is the Stress Die, but there's plenty of OGL sanity mechanics out there.

The Invisible College has some great sanity mechanics!

Quote from: Anselyn on November 05, 2021, 04:57:26 AM

Quote from: S'mon on November 05, 2021, 03:49:23 AM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on November 04, 2021, 10:26:42 PM

Another thing, why is it bad that the Mothership guys didn't put politics into their kickstarter?

(a) If the Kickstarter is presenting as apolitical but the game itself is political, that's deceptive and bad.
(b) If neither is political then it's good. Like Pundit's own stuff.

Pundit is saying this is a case of (a). I have no idea if he's right or wrong.

I've played a mini-campaign of Mothership and it was OK (@). Politics in the scenario we played was the same as the film Alien - not surprisingly given the obvious sources for the game.  i.e. Some megacorporation cares nothing for the grunts on the ground compared to its profits. That's political if you want it to be - or just regular gaming trope cynical.  I noticed no modern identity politics or the like in the stuff that I saw.

I think it's a (b).

(@) The Ok was because the rules seemed well set up for fighting, fixing things, combat and madness. We played a scenario that was a lot about interacting with crew, colonist and company factions but IIRC there's no skills like persuade/debate/intimidate which wasn't helpful-  but quite OSR (?).

The real politics in Mothership show up in the sourcebook materials. The main book is, from what I gleaned, just standard light-lefty bias which you could argue theoretically fits the genre.

But one of the writers for Mothership literally stated on G+ that I should be hung by piano wire.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 05, 2021, 06:21:24 PM
Because the Mothership people represent a political ideology that hates D&D, and yet they put out the white box there as if it's their "favorite game". Their political ideology demands that me and my products be banned, and gamers be controlled.

That's the difference. Ordinary gamers are not giving their money to someone who despises them when they buy my game. They are giving money to someone who despises them when they buy Mothership.

Sounds like typical Pundit overreach. Not sure the crew at TKG represent anyone or anything but themselves. If you have any statements made by any of them that would indicate that they are the leaders, or even major movers, of any ideological movement (as you hold yourself out to be), or that they "hate" D&D, I'd love to see them. Yes, they have their views, but from what I can see, they don't seem to inject them into their game.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 05, 2021, 06:26:27 PM
The real politics in Mothership show up in the sourcebook materials.

*citation needed* I haven't seen that, and I own several of their full-length adventures. Sure, it's possible that the whole "corporations are evil" shtick from Alien, Blade Runner or Soylent Green are in there as influences, but it's a reach to call anything about their game propaganda.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 05, 2021, 06:26:27 PMBut one of the writers for Mothership literally stated on G+ that I should be hung by piano wire.

Boo fucking hoo. You wrote a blog post telling Cam Banks to kill himself (and before you say "that was SATIRICAL", I sincerely doubt that whoever this was was SERIOUSLY calling for your actual murder). You talk all kinds of shit about people, all the time. But when someone writes mean words about you, you curl up in the fetal position and start sucking your thumb?  Have you tried not being a soft bitch? Don't dish it out if you can't take it in, man, that's day one shit.

Yes, they absolutely did mean it, not satirically. Not in the sense of uttering a death threat, but in the context of a conversation where they admitted to my point that if they had the political power to do so, they wouldn't just censor me and other right-wing gamers, they'd execute them.

And who's being a soft bitch, you cunt? I'm over here supporting a list that is intended to make sure regular gamers know what they are really like and decide not to give money to people who would hang them with piano wire if they just could. The fact that you're on MY site whining about it proves it's fulfilling its intended purpose. 

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha on November 05, 2021, 05:50:49 PM
I see things like "a massive success" for a RPG with 8000 sales (ok, a kickstarter with 8000 backers), and I'm just struck with the question of: where did the people who bought RPGs go? When I was in the industry, we were always a small game company, but the print runs on our supplements were 3-5k. Our best selling core book did 30k units. We weren't big. That wasn't a massive success. This is getting close to 20 years ago now, but still, the difference in numbers always astounds me.

My guess would be that the $80 full color rule book is partially to blame.  Companies see it as a defense against copying as it makes for big files and cheaper than full color printing with an ink jet but it also focuses on the higher end customer and there's fewer of those.  It's become the market standard and people are hugely influenced by production values but it also makes the point of entry unattainable for some.

Another factor is that kickstarter and the ease and availability of digital publishing have massively increased the amount of product out there in the marketplace.

Quote from: David Johansen on November 06, 2021, 10:30:14 AM

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha on November 05, 2021, 05:50:49 PM
I see things like "a massive success" for a RPG with 8000 sales (ok, a kickstarter with 8000 backers), and I'm just struck with the question of: where did the people who bought RPGs go? When I was in the industry, we were always a small game company, but the print runs on our supplements were 3-5k. Our best selling core book did 30k units. We weren't big. That wasn't a massive success. This is getting close to 20 years ago now, but still, the difference in numbers always astounds me.

My guess would be that the $80 full color rule book is partially to blame.  Companies see it as a defense against copying as it makes for big files and cheaper than full color printing with an ink jet but it also focuses on the higher end customer and there's fewer of those.  It's become the market standard and people are hugely influenced by production values but it also makes the point of entry unattainable for some.

Another factor is that kickstarter and the ease and availability of digital publishing have massively increased the amount of product out there in the marketplace.

Here's the thing.  I'm not paying $80 for a hardcover RPG book.  Leatherette covers, bookmarks, etc.  mean nothing to me. The binding *always* fails because they always print and bind in China for higher profit margins  I'll pay $20 for it as a pdf and do a POD as a softcover or break out "Mary, the 3-holer" and punch it and throw it in a binder.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 06, 2021, 12:21:49 AM
Yes, they absolutely did mean it, not satirically. Not in the sense of uttering a death threat, but in the context of a conversation where they admitted to my point that if they had the political power to do so, they wouldn't just censor me and other right-wing gamers, they'd execute them.

And who's being a soft bitch, you cunt? I'm over here supporting a list that is intended to make sure regular gamers know what they are really like and decide not to give money to people who would hang them with piano wire if they just could. The fact that you're on MY site whining about it proves it's fulfilling its intended purpose.

Pics or it didn't happen. If you can prove this with screenshots, please do. Otherwise, it's getting filed under shitthatdidnthappen.txt.

And laughing =/= whining.

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 06, 2021, 10:39:55 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on November 06, 2021, 10:30:14 AM

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha on November 05, 2021, 05:50:49 PM
I see things like "a massive success" for a RPG with 8000 sales (ok, a kickstarter with 8000 backers), and I'm just struck with the question of: where did the people who bought RPGs go? When I was in the industry, we were always a small game company, but the print runs on our supplements were 3-5k. Our best selling core book did 30k units. We weren't big. That wasn't a massive success. This is getting close to 20 years ago now, but still, the difference in numbers always astounds me.

My guess would be that the $80 full color rule book is partially to blame.  Companies see it as a defense against copying as it makes for big files and cheaper than full color printing with an ink jet but it also focuses on the higher end customer and there's fewer of those.  It's become the market standard and people are hugely influenced by production values but it also makes the point of entry unattainable for some.

Another factor is that kickstarter and the ease and availability of digital publishing have massively increased the amount of product out there in the marketplace.

Here's the thing.  I'm not paying $80 for a hardcover RPG book.  Leatherette covers, bookmarks, etc.  mean nothing to me. The binding *always* fails because they always print and bind in China for higher profit margins  I'll pay $20 for it as a pdf and do a POD as a softcover or break out "Mary, the 3-holer" and punch it and throw it in a binder.

That has very little to do with where it's printed, and a hell of a lot to do with the type of binding. The spines of most books are held together with glue, which dries and cracks over time. If you want books that last, they need to be sewn. That's why the original AD&D hardcovers have lasted so well. They're Smyth sewn, which makes them practically indestructible.

Quote from: Pat on November 06, 2021, 12:29:55 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 06, 2021, 10:39:55 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on November 06, 2021, 10:30:14 AM

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha on November 05, 2021, 05:50:49 PM
I see things like "a massive success" for a RPG with 8000 sales (ok, a kickstarter with 8000 backers), and I'm just struck with the question of: where did the people who bought RPGs go? When I was in the industry, we were always a small game company, but the print runs on our supplements were 3-5k. Our best selling core book did 30k units. We weren't big. That wasn't a massive success. This is getting close to 20 years ago now, but still, the difference in numbers always astounds me.

My guess would be that the $80 full color rule book is partially to blame.  Companies see it as a defense against copying as it makes for big files and cheaper than full color printing with an ink jet but it also focuses on the higher end customer and there's fewer of those.  It's become the market standard and people are hugely influenced by production values but it also makes the point of entry unattainable for some.

Another factor is that kickstarter and the ease and availability of digital publishing have massively increased the amount of product out there in the marketplace.

Here's the thing.  I'm not paying $80 for a hardcover RPG book.  Leatherette covers, bookmarks, etc.  mean nothing to me. The binding *always* fails because they always print and bind in China for higher profit margins  I'll pay $20 for it as a pdf and do a POD as a softcover or break out "Mary, the 3-holer" and punch it and throw it in a binder.

That has very little to do with where it's printed, and a hell of a lot to do with the type of binding. The spines of most books are held together with glue, which dries and cracks over time. If you want books that last, they need to be sewn. That's why the original AD&D hardcovers have lasted so well. They're Smyth sewn, which makes them practically indestructible.

Didn't the same process get used with 1e Unearthed Arcana? That's one of the earliest books I recall having a failing binding (buy it wasn't as bad as early prints of Shadowrun).

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 06, 2021, 12:41:57 PM

Quote from: Pat on November 06, 2021, 12:29:55 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 06, 2021, 10:39:55 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on November 06, 2021, 10:30:14 AM

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha on November 05, 2021, 05:50:49 PM
I see things like "a massive success" for a RPG with 8000 sales (ok, a kickstarter with 8000 backers), and I'm just struck with the question of: where did the people who bought RPGs go? When I was in the industry, we were always a small game company, but the print runs on our supplements were 3-5k. Our best selling core book did 30k units. We weren't big. That wasn't a massive success. This is getting close to 20 years ago now, but still, the difference in numbers always astounds me.

My guess would be that the $80 full color rule book is partially to blame.  Companies see it as a defense against copying as it makes for big files and cheaper than full color printing with an ink jet but it also focuses on the higher end customer and there's fewer of those.  It's become the market standard and people are hugely influenced by production values but it also makes the point of entry unattainable for some.

Another factor is that kickstarter and the ease and availability of digital publishing have massively increased the amount of product out there in the marketplace.

Here's the thing.  I'm not paying $80 for a hardcover RPG book.  Leatherette covers, bookmarks, etc.  mean nothing to me. The binding *always* fails because they always print and bind in China for higher profit margins  I'll pay $20 for it as a pdf and do a POD as a softcover or break out "Mary, the 3-holer" and punch it and throw it in a binder.

That has very little to do with where it's printed, and a hell of a lot to do with the type of binding. The spines of most books are held together with glue, which dries and cracks over time. If you want books that last, they need to be sewn. That's why the original AD&D hardcovers have lasted so well. They're Smyth sewn, which makes them practically indestructible.

Didn't the same process get used with 1e Unearthed Arcana? That's one of the earliest books I recall having a failing binding (buy it wasn't as bad as early prints of Shadowrun).

UA was the first AD&D book that didn't use Smyth binding. Which is why it got a reputation for falling apart, though my copy is still fine.

Quote from: Pat on November 06, 2021, 01:33:41 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 06, 2021, 12:41:57 PM

Quote from: Pat on November 06, 2021, 12:29:55 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 06, 2021, 10:39:55 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on November 06, 2021, 10:30:14 AM

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha on November 05, 2021, 05:50:49 PM
I see things like "a massive success" for a RPG with 8000 sales (ok, a kickstarter with 8000 backers), and I'm just struck with the question of: where did the people who bought RPGs go? When I was in the industry, we were always a small game company, but the print runs on our supplements were 3-5k. Our best selling core book did 30k units. We weren't big. That wasn't a massive success. This is getting close to 20 years ago now, but still, the difference in numbers always astounds me.

My guess would be that the $80 full color rule book is partially to blame.  Companies see it as a defense against copying as it makes for big files and cheaper than full color printing with an ink jet but it also focuses on the higher end customer and there's fewer of those.  It's become the market standard and people are hugely influenced by production values but it also makes the point of entry unattainable for some.

Another factor is that kickstarter and the ease and availability of digital publishing have massively increased the amount of product out there in the marketplace.

Here's the thing.  I'm not paying $80 for a hardcover RPG book.  Leatherette covers, bookmarks, etc.  mean nothing to me. The binding *always* fails because they always print and bind in China for higher profit margins  I'll pay $20 for it as a pdf and do a POD as a softcover or break out "Mary, the 3-holer" and punch it and throw it in a binder.

That has very little to do with where it's printed, and a hell of a lot to do with the type of binding. The spines of most books are held together with glue, which dries and cracks over time. If you want books that last, they need to be sewn. That's why the original AD&D hardcovers have lasted so well. They're Smyth sewn, which makes them practically indestructible.

Didn't the same process get used with 1e Unearthed Arcana? That's one of the earliest books I recall having a failing binding (buy it wasn't as bad as early prints of Shadowrun).

UA was the first AD&D book that didn't use Smyth binding. Which is why it got a reputation for falling apart, though my copy is still fine.

Greetings!

Ahh, yes. The 1E AD&D books. I *still* have my original set of books. They are in EXCELLENT condition, even after long and extensive usage. They are beautiful.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak on November 02, 2021, 07:21:58 PM
...
My favourite part is how Manga is curb stomping comics so much that comics people want to include Manga in their sales figures.

Its cute like DnD holding onto the tail of Magic.

It gets real interesting when you consider that D&D has gotten 30%+ growth for several years running, but even then when we take a look at a rough estimate of what D&D makes vs. Magic:

For the end of 2020: According to Forbes, Magic made $581.2 million in 2020. ICv2 notes that WotC made $816 million in sales in 2020. D&D would then be roughly $234.8 million.

D&D had 30%+ growth for several years running, and is still less than Half of what Magic brings in...

Quote from: S'mon on November 03, 2021, 06:10:10 AM
...
Woke does not work well as a mass market marketing strategy, and it does not work well for comics and similar periodicals, but it can work well for a more niche one-off product such as an RPG or a small film.  The product itself does not need to be any good, which always helps. If it's an RPG, no one actually needs to play it. With Woke marketing, no one will interrogate the product on its merits.
...

To me that is the big catch for all these "successful" diversity-oriented woke kickstarter games.

How many people will be actively playing them in 5-10 years?

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha on November 05, 2021, 05:50:49 PM
I see things like "a massive success" for a RPG with 8000 sales (ok, a kickstarter with 8000 backers), and I'm just struck with the question of: where did the people who bought RPGs go? When I was in the industry, we were always a small game company, but the print runs on our supplements were 3-5k. Our best selling core book did 30k units. We weren't big. That wasn't a massive success. This is getting close to 20 years ago now, but still, the difference in numbers always astounds me.

I think that a large part of it has to do with how the industry has changed.

20 years ago the effects of the OGL were not as strong. People in the hobby were more likely to give non d20 system games a shot. And the perennial top two RPGs were not D&D and D&D's clone.

IMHO unless you are 5e D&D, the Clone, or have the RPG license for Conan, Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings; nobody is doing numbers from 20 years ago anymore.

Even publishers of established RPG ip's from the 80's-90's like vampire, shadowrun, and cyberpunk go straight to kickstarter now.