Quote from: FingerRod on September 14, 2021, 06:08:43 PM
"But but but...if you make this one little change I will accept it!!!!!!"

I have yet to see someone really have a problem with the list itself, like many people with different politics, posting in yellow that a particular company participated in the october-surprise website doesn't make me want to buy their products any less.

Seeing someone on the green list that is "anti-SJW" doesn't make me want to buy their products either.

And someone in the red list that posts that they're actively seeking out inclusivity might actually be a compelling thing to me.

I'm grateful that Ocule put in there the criteria for the individual entries on why he did what he did, and I was only suggesting that he go through with a thing he had ALREADY thought to do himself, make a separate category for anti-woke/anti-SJW.

But, if he doesn't and the green has both a guy in actively dislikes me mixed and a guy that just makes historical RPGs with no politics, it's not "ruining" the list for me. I don't have any less information than I had yesterday. And he's spending his own time doing whatever he wants to do. I

I have presented my case, Ocule graciously responded, everything is all copacetic. We might not have the same politics, but we're both gamer geeks and eh, rolling dice and telling a story around a table is a commonality.

 I honestly think people saying they are seeking inclusivity is a trash way to just CYA around the shitbirds who are not going to buy your stuff, but could screech about it on twitter.  I must have missed the whole *exclusive* period for rpgs to now see we have to make sure to say the word inclusive all the time.  I guess the good news is the Taliban is now inclusive as well.  They said so.

Oh, and as a bit of info for Ocule about Tenkar. I don't know if this would factor into any thought you have, but here is documenting some issues that he had with Mr. LaNasa

I mean, eh... I don't THINK it would affect your views, but on one hand it's a little de-platformy and on the other, it's just collection of data that was already out there.

https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2021/06/latest-tsr-justin-lanasa-screenshot.html

  I do not know a thing about Tenkar, but a look around the internet does make me think he is a bit of a drama queen.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 06:31:58 PM
I honestly think people saying they are seeking inclusivity is a trash way to just CYA around the shitbirds who are not going to buy your stuff, but could screech about it on twitter.  I must have missed the whole *exclusive* period for rpgs to now see we have to make sure to say the word inclusive all the time.  I guess the good news is the Taliban is now inclusive as well.  They said so.

So, here's where context matters, I put that word in to talk about an example of something that might mark something as yellow or red, that I would find to be a positive. We don't need to discuss the merits or flaws of it, in fact that veers towards the off-topic conversations. I picked it as an example, but a specific example is one publisher is listed as hiring "sensitivity consultants" and that merited a yellow rank.

That is not a negative to me, it's the mark of a publisher willing to put in a little effort to be better. I appreciate things like that. If it were just listed as "yellow" then neither of us have that detail to make our own conclusions.

What we THINK about that fact isn't the point, it's that it's just a fact. You draw your conclusion, I draw mine, and we don't need to go into the logic behind those conclusions in this thread. (to limit off-topic conversations.)

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 14, 2021, 06:39:58 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 06:31:58 PM
I honestly think people saying they are seeking inclusivity is a trash way to just CYA around the shitbirds who are not going to buy your stuff, but could screech about it on twitter.  I must have missed the whole *exclusive* period for rpgs to now see we have to make sure to say the word inclusive all the time.  I guess the good news is the Taliban is now inclusive as well.  They said so.

So, here's where context matters, I put that word in to talk about an example of something that might mark something as yellow or red, that I would find to be a positive. We don't need to discuss the merits or flaws of it, in fact that veers towards the off-topic conversations. I picked it as an example, but a specific example is one publisher is listed as hiring "sensitivity consultants" and that merited a yellow rank.

That is not a negative to me, it's the mark of a publisher willing to put in a little effort to be better. I appreciate things like that. If it were just listed as "yellow" then neither of us have that detail to make our own conclusions.

What we THINK about that fact isn't the point, it's that it's just a fact. You draw your conclusion, I draw mine, and we don't need to go into the logic behind those conclusions in this thread. (to limit off-topic conversations.)

  I think it is just a fucking word.  I think words are cheap,  and people who put too much meaning into some of them have their own reasons for that.  Usually white people who have a lack of racial diversity in the group of people they hang around with. I have doubt the word alone would make anything yellow or red.  I DO feel a heavy handed preaching as to what a person should take it to mean (from that same white dude will an almost all white peer group they hang around with) might get the colors to change a bit.   

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 06:27:57 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 14, 2021, 06:21:49 PM
Oh yes, now you want criteria to be adhered to fairly.

lmao what are you talking about dude?.... Check my post history. I actually put proof in this thread way back when it started.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/msg1183088/#msg1183088

Did not see a word from you when Evil Hat was throwing everyone under the bus but starting yesterday you want fair standards.

I believe you.

The following is me paraphrasing ALL the posts from this individual.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 14, 2021, 04:23:43 PM

"Wah, wah, wah I don't like you guys being against my totalitarian, puritanical, racist, sexist and anti civilization ideology!
I demand any developer that's against my cult to be put into a special list of my choosing!"

Anti-Woke = Pro free speech, pro freedom of asociation, pro free markets, against cancel culture, puritanical, hypocritical, racist, sexist cultists.

That, by definition is so Green it's Super-Green.

Quote from: Shasarak on September 14, 2021, 07:17:31 PM

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 06:27:57 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 14, 2021, 06:21:49 PM
Oh yes, now you want criteria to be adhered to fairly.

lmao what are you talking about dude?.... Check my post history. I actually put proof in this thread way back when it started.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/msg1183088/#msg1183088

Did not see a word from you when Evil Hat was throwing everyone under the bus but starting yesterday you want fair standards.

I believe you.

Dude, first of all my post about being fair was today not yesterday. My other post was from August. I actually did post a negative review about Evil Hat online but you seem to have a strange grudge against me just for wanting things to be clear with standards and well documented. Even the list's author is responding in a sane way and talking about my criticism and why he put him where he did.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 14, 2021, 12:07:38 PM
Ok, I've been playing nicely, I've let a lot of things go, but I still have a question. I apologize, please keep an open mind when answering.


This is the reason for a green rating:

Quote from: Ocule on September 12, 2021, 05:41:56 PM
These are entities that have not engaged in any known anti-consumer behavior and generally have remained apolitical.

This is the reason for a yellow rating:

Quote
Entities in this section have engaged in some questionable behavior, taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products. Entities here have not caused any harm or engaged in anti-consumer behavior.

So the difference between green and yellow is that they have engaged in questionable behavior or taken a political stance that alienates a customer or preaches in their products.

You listed multiple entries in the green list that took an Anti-SJW and anti-woke position. (I'll just pick two to make it easy)

Quote

• Kort'thalis Publishing/Venger Satanis (Alpha Blue, Cha'alt) Anti SJW, Strong stance on free speech
• TSR Hobbies Takes a stand to be pro free speech and anti censorship. This is the new incarnation of TSR headed by Justin La Nasa and Ernie Gygax.

TSR hobbies takes strong positions online, Justin LaNasa has actually run for office on those. They also have no products yet, so I wonder about their notability to be included in the list.

And Kort'thalis is listed as "Anti-SJW" and there are customers who have SJW views, so taking a strong opinion against them ... does that not mean that they are alienating those customers?

I mean, I'm not trying to say "don't make them green" but rather that this isn't a case of not alienating people AND remaining apolitical. There's other examples, but I just picked a few.

And so, I'll just pick one entry in the yellow list that surprised me.

Quote

• GURPs/Steve Jackson Games Signed October Surprise/Gamers for Hillary in 2020, which makes the stance official. However their products remain largely apolitical.

Now I knew that Steve Jackson was not as conservative as many of his fellow Texans, but I was unaware of his participation in the october-surprise website. I didn't even know such a thing existed until I searched. And I've been a happy customer of theirs for decades, so honestly, I don't see much reason for them to be on the yellow list. They hire people of lots of different political positions, you'll see a few folks on the list that work on Munchkin and Ogre and other things, but also Philip Reed who does work on GURPS. BUT, you don't see everyone that works on GURPS, they've got a wide variety of political opinions.

Are you saying that a single leftist opinion is a thought crime? Or the owner have a political opinion is one?

And if the list is about being apolitical, why is Mr. Jackson's opinions worthy of yellow and not Mr. LaNasa, who literally ran for office with those opinions?

And if you explain it away with some explanation that says "But the left doesn't believe ... " or "the right wants..." then you're expressing an opinion that is political yourself. People with many political positions are games consumers, and you might not want to buy a product that espouses hatred of you... That doesn't seem to be what you're rating.

You seem to be DIGGING for political opinions expressed by some of the owners and writers, and the ones you agree with get on the green list, and the ones you don't like are yellow or red.

So, you might need to forgive those who see this list as an "enemies list" for drawing that conclusion. Your criteria is stated as merely being about alienating of customers and remaining apolitical, but you are free with a pat on the back and an "attaboy" for those that express the right political opinion and as long as they alienate the right people.

Defending Free Speech, or loving your country, or believing in democracy, or wanting rule of law to be respected are not "political" views. They are the norms of our civilization.  The left tries to pretend they are contentious views so that they don't look like the absolute freaks they are when they loudly declare their support for banning (or nowadays even burning) books and blocking (or nowadays criminally illegalizing) speech, subverting democracy, creating a two-tiered system of rule of law, and despising their own countries. All of which ARE inherently political views because they stand against the norm of civilization.


Likewise, saying "Gamers are not toxic" or "RPGs are for everyone who just wants to play" or "RPGs should be about adventuring  not about political indoctrination" are NOT political views, they are expressions of the NORM.

The ABNORMAL ones, and therefore the politicized ones, are the people standing against those things.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 15, 2021, 08:45:39 AM
Defending Free Speech, or loving your country, or believing in democracy, or wanting rule of law to be respected are not "political" views. They are the norms of our civilization.  The left tries to pretend they are contentious views so that they don't look like the absolute freaks they are when they loudly declare their support for banning (or nowadays even burning) books and blocking (or nowadays criminally illegalizing) speech, subverting democracy, creating a two-tiered system of rule of law, and despising their own countries. All of which ARE inherently political views because they stand against the norm of civilization.


Likewise, saying "Gamers are not toxic" or "RPGs are for everyone who just wants to play" or "RPGs should be about adventuring  not about political indoctrination" are NOT political views, they are expressions of the NORM.

The ABNORMAL ones, and therefore the politicized ones, are the people standing against those things.

Ah, but that's the point, Pundit. If they don't denigrate and damage these things, they have no leverage with which to push their own utopian ideals.

Whether it's in law, politics, or games.

Quote from: Aaron_Alexander on September 14, 2021, 04:52:40 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 14, 2021, 10:21:05 AM

Quote from: Aaron_Alexander on September 13, 2021, 06:13:40 AM
I've a candidate for a green entry.

Look up Incel Riot Studios.  They have a card game out called Virtue Signal and they're working on another game called POZ (Portland Occupied Zone).

Both of these games lampoon the hell out of craptivist/woke culture.  Take a look at their trailer for Virtue Signal's expansion called Deplorables.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYoaZdQYuJo

That  might be so but they're not RPGs, are they?

I would say it's still tabletop but Steve Jackson Games ain't on the list either.  I'd say let Ocule decide the criteria.  But still Incel Riot deserves some play, the guy running it is an absolute mad lad.

Steve Jackson Games makes RPGs.

Quote from: pawsplay on September 14, 2021, 05:29:47 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 14, 2021, 04:34:06 PM
The reason Anti-Woke is in green is because they're not out to de-platform people for disagreeing with their beliefs while the Woke see nothing wrong with de-platforming anyone who disagrees with their orthodoxy (and the few on the right [for all the good that distinction is these days] who believe similarly are also on the red list) and will even make things up and use sock-puppets to create fake outrage in order to try and de-platform and financially ruin those they dislike.

It's your problem if you can't understand that key difference.

Isn't this a de-platforming list? Isn't this the same as some "woke" person saying you shouldn't buy XYZ, they are alt-right/anti-woke etc?

No, because the creator of the list is not saying "you should not buy from these people".  It's just saying "you should have the right to know what these companies really stand for before you are tricked by marketing into purchasing something".

In a deplatforming list like ALL THE PEOPLE complaining about this list make or support ALL THE TIME, they explicitly say "if you buy from this list you are a racist, homophobe sexist fascist nazi and we will come after YOU too for doing so; and in fact we'll come after you if you don't join us in loud public displays of condemning the people on this list, because silence is violence bigot!"

That's a deplatforming list.

Quote from: pawsplay on September 14, 2021, 05:38:35 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 05:35:25 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on September 14, 2021, 05:29:47 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 14, 2021, 04:34:06 PM
The reason Anti-Woke is in green is because they're not out to de-platform people for disagreeing with their beliefs while the Woke see nothing wrong with de-platforming anyone who disagrees with their orthodoxy (and the few on the right [for all the good that distinction is these days] who believe similarly are also on the red list) and will even make things up and use sock-puppets to create fake outrage in order to try and de-platform and financially ruin those they dislike.

It's your problem if you can't understand that key difference.

Isn't this a de-platforming list? Isn't this the same as some "woke" person saying you shouldn't buy XYZ, they are alt-right/anti-woke etc?

   De platforming is denying the chance to be for sale or seen.  Saying, "hey these stupid motherfuckers hate you," is just informing a customer.  No one is saying these people's products shouldnt be there, or even be bought, just that if you give a stupid motherfucker money who told you he hates you, you may want to rethink how you make decisions.   if you are not one of the people the stupid motherfucker hates, do you.

So by your definition, a lot of "woke" people aren't trying to de-platform anyone.

Of course they are. When they constantly try to harass publishers to drop me or distributors to ban my books or just call for me to be killed, THAT is deplatforming, you lying cunt.

Quote from: FingerRod on September 14, 2021, 06:08:43 PM
"But but but...if you make this one little change I will accept it!!!!!!"

Yeah, the disingenuous bullshit of these sockpuppet posters here acting like they're just trying to get clarification or offer helpful advice when literally nothing short of this list being erased forever and its creator's life ruined would ever be capable bring them to full satisfying orgasm is just fucking sickening. The fact that they're stupid enough to think they're fooling anyone is laughable.