Quote from: hoshisabi on September 14, 2021, 04:23:43 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 03:09:47 PM
    I am referring to the dude who keeps attempting to decide where folks put things on the list "so as not to be double standards" when he just wants woke and anti woke in the same category.  These days anti woke is pretty much apolitical.

Ooohhhh... heck no. anti-woke is not apolitical if many "woke" topics are considered political. It's a reaction to a political ideology, a case of "I don't like where this is going and I want to actively have less of it."

When someone asks for your opinion about pizza toppings and you say that you only want plain pizza, you're not some other category. You're still expressing an opinion about pizza toppings.

And while that analogy isn't perfect, getting too much deeper gets into a political discussion that we want to avoid. I just feel that it's pretty easy to point at political opinions in this case when I was able to show an instance of two people with opposing political ideologies as their main distinction, one was listed as green and the other was yellow.

It wasn't speaking of their "woke" versus "anti-woke" stance, merely their political affiliation. So, this list specifically contained an easily identifiable case. And that's no criticism of Ocule. He's taking his own time to categorized things in a way that is useful for himself, and sharing it with others. The fact that others can use it is a by product.

So, I don't want them in the same category. In fact, Ocule and others suggested what I would really like, an alternate category for that specific group. You can call it "blue" or "super green" or whatever. And I'd love to see the same sort of extra justification we've seen for the yellow/red lists, what really places them as not just apolitical but actively anti-woke, so I can decide for myself.

Because there's the merely apolitical, and there's the actively hostile to those with an ideology like my own. Most of the apolitical don't give two cents about my politics, I'm pretty milquetoast and my money is just as green as yours and they're happy to have it. And that's perfect for me.  (just as I'm imagining many of you would feel about a group like SJG, who might have politics you disagree with, but since you never see it in their products, you judge the games by their own merits)

  Many woke topics are not political, they are bat shit insanity.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 04:21:44 PM

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 14, 2021, 04:06:21 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
  If woke means enemy, I am all for it. 

There were a number of regulars on this forum that took exception to it being called an "Enemies List."

You may feel that's acceptable, but this is where I think there is a divide amongst y'all.

When one points at a group that you consider "not us" and say "They all think and act the same, so I will paint them all with the same brush" then it's hard for you to take exception when that same group looks at you, and all of the people standing near you, and claims "You all think and act the same, so I will paint you all with the same brush."

  I say that because it is explicitly NOT an enemies list.  The only sort of person who would view it as an enemies list, would be, well the sort who puts it in quotes and feels some kind of way about the wokes all being red.  I say I am fine with woke being called an enemies list, not because I view anyone on it as such, but the folks on that list damn sure view me as an enemy.  That make sense?  I no more view woke folks as a direct enemy than I think an insane homeless man in my enemy.   Just something I will probably avoid.

I'm going to leave the entire quote intact because -- I was responding to you who explicitly said "if woke means enemy, I'm all for it."

If you're saying "it's not an enemies list" and "woke is no more my enemy than a homeless man" then... I imagine you can see my confusion.

I mean hey, I don't expect you to treat me like an enemy. I am indeed harmless to you. I speak a lot of words, and the worst I can do is force you to read my babbling.

But I am also making a point to be respectful as a guest here. I promise you that I am attempting to have this conversation in earnest. If I suddenly drop from the conversation, it's not out of having not been sincere with the points that I made or trolling or anything of the sort. (Usually it's because I got distracted and then remembered a couple of days later, "Oh, hey, I never did look to see if I got a reply." Folks have indeed been respectful in return, for the most part, and I've appreciated that.)

And while I do occasionally get a little flip with my comments, not of anything rude, but because were we in person this would have been a conversation we could have had over a drink, and laughed a bit, and understood that we were keeping it light and entertaining.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 14, 2021, 04:28:33 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 04:21:44 PM

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 14, 2021, 04:06:21 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
  If woke means enemy, I am all for it. 

There were a number of regulars on this forum that took exception to it being called an "Enemies List."

You may feel that's acceptable, but this is where I think there is a divide amongst y'all.

When one points at a group that you consider "not us" and say "They all think and act the same, so I will paint them all with the same brush" then it's hard for you to take exception when that same group looks at you, and all of the people standing near you, and claims "You all think and act the same, so I will paint you all with the same brush."

  I say that because it is explicitly NOT an enemies list.  The only sort of person who would view it as an enemies list, would be, well the sort who puts it in quotes and feels some kind of way about the wokes all being red.  I say I am fine with woke being called an enemies list, not because I view anyone on it as such, but the folks on that list damn sure view me as an enemy.  That make sense?  I no more view woke folks as a direct enemy than I think an insane homeless man in my enemy.   Just something I will probably avoid.

I'm going to leave the entire quote intact because -- I was responding to you who explicitly said "if woke means enemy, I'm all for it."

If you're saying "it's not an enemies list" and "woke is no more my enemy than a homeless man" then... I imagine you can see my confusion.

I mean hey, I don't expect you to treat me like an enemy. I am indeed harmless to you. I speak a lot of words, and the worst I can do is force you to read my babbling.

But I am also making a point to be respectful as a guest here. I promise you that I am attempting to have this conversation in earnest. If I suddenly drop from the conversation, it's not out of having not been sincere with the points that I made or trolling or anything of the sort. (Usually it's because I got distracted and then remembered a couple of days later, "Oh, hey, I never did look to see if I got a reply." Folks have indeed been respectful in return, for the most part, and I've appreciated that.)

(though I do occasionally get a little flip with my comments, not of anything rude, but because were we in person this would have been a conversation we could have had over a drink, and laughed a bit, and understood that we were keeping it light and entertaining.)

  My point is, you should stop saying "enemies list" and just call it as you see it, as an enemies list.   If you want to define it as such, feel free.  I am saying, it can certainly be viewed from my perspective as a list of people who do in fact see me as their enemy (they say so, ad nausem).  So it is likely a fitting description, but likely only in the sense it is a one way firing range.

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 03:02:47 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
  If woke means enemy, I am all for it.  I see no reason, what so ever, to worry about someone being anti woke.  I am sure the woke people are already super, extra special familiar with anyone anti woke.    I keep seeing "view as an enemies list", which to me means it says more about the person with such a concern than the people making it.  Reality is, we are likely going to end up with two separate economies and products.  Plenty of people will still choose from both, and a good number will likely only buy from one or the other.  So be it.  It is not the hand anyone wanted, but you have to play a hand you are dealt, not the one you want.

That's fine if the definitions of the categories are changed, but as it stands now the yellow is

Quotetaken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products

Several of the green entities have taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers. The fact that you or I may agree with that stance shouldn't change how they are categorized. In my opinion the list should either be rebranded as an explicitly anti-woke list, or their should be no double standard and one of the following solutions should be made.

• Split Green into apolitical and anti-woke
• Downgrade the political entities in green
• Upgrade the Yellows which are political but apolitical in their products

How about.... No.

The reason Anti-Woke is in green is because they're not out to de-platform people for disagreeing with their beliefs while the Woke see nothing wrong with de-platforming anyone who disagrees with their orthodoxy (and the few on the right [for all the good that distinction is these days] who believe similarly are also on the red list) and will even make things up and use sock-puppets to create fake outrage in order to try and de-platform and financially ruin those they dislike.

It's your problem if you can't understand that key difference.

This list should remain as it is.  The people in "Red" have decided anyone who is not politically aligned with the Far Left or whatever passes for that nowadays is an Enemy.  It matters not whether we want or do not want to be at war--war is upon us and we have been deemed "the Enemy."  The Green list are those who are either labeled "the Enemy" along with us, are actively defending us, or at the very worst are neutral.  Yellow have expressed sympathy with those who want us gone but that may have been to prevent their own lands from being devastated and their cities sacked.

I know a lot of people don't like to think of it this way but that's what it is.  We're at war.  We didn't choose this war but when the horde rides into your village and starts burning your home, what you want is irrelevant.  You can either take up arms and defend yourself or watch as everything gets burned down.  This list is simply a tool and the main tactic is attrition.  I, for one, do not want to give money to people who hate me and so I find this list to be useful as it is.  It is simple, straightforward, and doesn't need to be changed in order to function properly.

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 14, 2021, 04:34:06 PM

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 03:02:47 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
  If woke means enemy, I am all for it.  I see no reason, what so ever, to worry about someone being anti woke.  I am sure the woke people are already super, extra special familiar with anyone anti woke.    I keep seeing "view as an enemies list", which to me means it says more about the person with such a concern than the people making it.  Reality is, we are likely going to end up with two separate economies and products.  Plenty of people will still choose from both, and a good number will likely only buy from one or the other.  So be it.  It is not the hand anyone wanted, but you have to play a hand you are dealt, not the one you want.

That's fine if the definitions of the categories are changed, but as it stands now the yellow is

Quotetaken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products

Several of the green entities have taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers. The fact that you or I may agree with that stance shouldn't change how they are categorized. In my opinion the list should either be rebranded as an explicitly anti-woke list, or their should be no double standard and one of the following solutions should be made.

• Split Green into apolitical and anti-woke
• Downgrade the political entities in green
• Upgrade the Yellows which are political but apolitical in their products

How about.... No.

The reason Anti-Woke is in green is because they're not out to de-platform people for disagreeing with their beliefs while the Woke see nothing wrong with de-platforming anyone who disagrees with their orthodoxy (and the few on the right [for all the good that distinction is these days] who believe similarly are also on the red list) and will even make things up and use sock-puppets to create fake outrage in order to try and de-platform and financially ruin those they dislike.

It's your problem if you can't understand that key difference.

Alright.... So all those videos claiming the list is a neutral buying guide are a lie? This list should be changed to be the anti-woke list. I'm not even woke, I just want companies to be fairly and accurately judged.

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 14, 2021, 04:34:06 PM
How about.... No.

The reason Anti-Woke is in green is because they're not out to de-platform people for disagreeing with their beliefs while the Woke see nothing wrong with de-platforming anyone who disagrees with their orthodoxy (and the few on the right [for all the good that distinction is these days] who believe similarly are also on the red list) and will even make things up and use sock-puppets to create fake outrage in order to try and de-platform and financially ruin those they dislike.

It's your problem if you can't understand that key difference.

I don't see that difference. You're using a definition of "woke" that I've yet to see evidence of these individuals living up to.

I do see Tenkar on the green list, and even the list talks about him trying to de-platform someone who disagreed with his orthodoxy.

Quote from the list:

Quote
Tenkar's Tavern/Eric Tenkar (Blog and Community) A "neutral ground" for an rpg community. Had some drama a few years ago about getting something pulled from one book shelf for it's description having ACAB on it, which ruffled some feathers on the anti censorship side however he has contributed so much good to the hobby. He has produced a few supplements on DTRPG

And he's still green.  (and you can go back through the posts in this very topic and see how it was a conversation topic, so everyone involved is AWARE of the fact that this is a fuzzy inclusion.)

So it's not about de-platforming.

I don't see Steve Jackson making sock puppets, I don't see him making fake outrage, I don't see him doing anything of the sort. So, I don't think that is the definition of woke being used here.

I just see him as an average citizen with a political viewpoint that isn't even especially woke. Most of the woke crowd really hated Hillary as much as the right hated her. So in this case, even that political opinion isn't especially woke.

And when we talk about contributing to the hobby, holy cow, not only GURPS but Melee and Magic, Fantasy Trip, Car Wars, Ogre, Illuminati, and recent years, Munchkin, and so so many other things.  (Heck, the original Wasteland, which through sequels and spiritual sequels became Fallout, was going to use the GURPS system.)

Steve Jackson is up there with the greats of the hobby, and you'd be hard-pressed to see anyone who was part of those early years that doesn't speak of him with respect.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 14, 2021, 04:41:42 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 14, 2021, 04:34:06 PM
How about.... No.

The reason Anti-Woke is in green is because they're not out to de-platform people for disagreeing with their beliefs while the Woke see nothing wrong with de-platforming anyone who disagrees with their orthodoxy (and the few on the right [for all the good that distinction is these days] who believe similarly are also on the red list) and will even make things up and use sock-puppets to create fake outrage in order to try and de-platform and financially ruin those they dislike.

It's your problem if you can't understand that key difference.

I don't see that difference. You're using a definition of "woke" that I've yet to see evidence of these individuals living up to.

I do see Tenkar on the green list, and even the list talks about him trying to de-platform someone who disagreed with his orthodoxy.

Quote from the list:

Quote
Tenkar's Tavern/Eric Tenkar (Blog and Community) A "neutral ground" for an rpg community. Had some drama a few years ago about getting something pulled from one book shelf for it's description having ACAB on it, which ruffled some feathers on the anti censorship side however he has contributed so much good to the hobby. He has produced a few supplements on DTRPG

And he's still green.  (and you can go back through the posts in this very topic and see how it was a conversation topic, so everyone involved is AWARE of the fact that this is a fuzzy inclusion.)

So it's not about de-platforming.

I don't see Steve Jackson making sock puppets, I don't see him making fake outrage, I don't see him doing anything of the sort. So, I don't think that is the definition of woke being used here.

I just see him as an average citizen with a political viewpoint that isn't even especially woke. Most of the woke crowd really hated Hillary as much as the right hated her. So in this case, even that political opinion isn't especially woke.

And when we talk about contributing to the hobby, holy cow, not only GURPS but Melee and Magic, Fantasy Trip, Car Wars, Ogre, Illuminati, and recent years, Munchkin, and so so many other things.  (Heck, the original Wasteland, which through sequels and spiritual sequels became Fallout, was going to use the GURPS system.)

Steve Jackson is up there with the greats of the hobby, and you'd be hard-pressed to see anyone who was part of those early years that doesn't speak of him with respect.

It's rules for thee and not for me.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 14, 2021, 10:21:05 AM

Quote from: Aaron_Alexander on September 13, 2021, 06:13:40 AM
I've a candidate for a green entry.

Look up Incel Riot Studios.  They have a card game out called Virtue Signal and they're working on another game called POZ (Portland Occupied Zone).

Both of these games lampoon the hell out of craptivist/woke culture.  Take a look at their trailer for Virtue Signal's expansion called Deplorables.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYoaZdQYuJo

That  might be so but they're not RPGs, are they?

I would say it's still tabletop but Steve Jackson Games ain't on the list either.  I'd say let Ocule decide the criteria.  But still Incel Riot deserves some play, the guy running it is an absolute mad lad.

Quote from: Aaron_Alexander on September 14, 2021, 04:52:40 PM
I would say it's still tabletop but Steve Jackson Games ain't on the list either.  I'd say let Ocule decide the criteria.  But still Incel Riot deserves some play, the guy running it is an absolute mad lad.

Yeah, they're in the yellow section in the latest list, actually. (Due to his participation in the october-surprise.com website, along with several other folks like Steven Marsh and Phillip Reed.)

And they're definitely RPG, even though they tend to make more money from the board/card game genres lately. (I like to think that Steve Jackson will keep GURPS alive as long as he can, as its a labor of love at this point, and moving to mainly PDF publishing lets them get a bit experimental and put out things that might not have sold on a store shelf.)

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 14, 2021, 05:06:10 PM

Quote from: Aaron_Alexander on September 14, 2021, 04:52:40 PM
I would say it's still tabletop but Steve Jackson Games ain't on the list either.  I'd say let Ocule decide the criteria.  But still Incel Riot deserves some play, the guy running it is an absolute mad lad.

Yeah, they're in the yellow section in the latest list, actually. (Due to his participation in the october-surprise.com website, along with several other folks like Steven Marsh and Phillip Reed.)

And they're definitely RPG, even though they tend to make more money from the board/card game genres lately. (I like to think that Steve Jackson will keep GURPS alive as long as he can, as its a labor of love at this point, and moving to mainly PDF publishing lets them get a bit experimental and put out things that might not have sold on a store shelf.)

Despite sjg currently being yellow gurps is among my favorite games. It's criminally underrated

  Ocule made his list, I think he should decide who is where and why.  All lists can have a bit of bias, and all bias has a specific flavor.   I do not mind this list having his bias.

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 14, 2021, 04:34:06 PM
The reason Anti-Woke is in green is because they're not out to de-platform people for disagreeing with their beliefs while the Woke see nothing wrong with de-platforming anyone who disagrees with their orthodoxy (and the few on the right [for all the good that distinction is these days] who believe similarly are also on the red list) and will even make things up and use sock-puppets to create fake outrage in order to try and de-platform and financially ruin those they dislike.

It's your problem if you can't understand that key difference.

Isn't this a de-platforming list? Isn't this the same as some "woke" person saying you shouldn't buy XYZ, they are alt-right/anti-woke etc?

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 04:40:10 PM
Alright.... So all those videos claiming the list is a neutral buying guide are a lie? This list should be changed to be the anti-woke list. I'm not even woke, I just want companies to be fairly and accurately judged.

I'm not really sure what your problem is, here.  This list basically gives the reader information on which companies want to gatekeep him/her out of the hobby.  It enables the reader to make their own decisions by providing information.  If a company is "anti-woke," then it is, by necessity, against gatekeeping people out of the hobby.

I mean, it's time to call a spade a spade and stop pretending the woke crowd has a solid, rational, factual case here.  They are bullies and gatekeepers and this list tells you who is and who isn't.  I don't understand why you want to complicate it.  The Greens largely don't want to gatekeep (except for a few who want to gatekeep the SJWs because they are the actual gatekeepers and bullies).  This list works absolutely fine for me.  I can see, at a glance, what each creator/company thinks of me and everyone else who hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid and I can now go and make my own decisions.

Quote from: pawsplay on September 14, 2021, 05:29:47 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 14, 2021, 04:34:06 PM
The reason Anti-Woke is in green is because they're not out to de-platform people for disagreeing with their beliefs while the Woke see nothing wrong with de-platforming anyone who disagrees with their orthodoxy (and the few on the right [for all the good that distinction is these days] who believe similarly are also on the red list) and will even make things up and use sock-puppets to create fake outrage in order to try and de-platform and financially ruin those they dislike.

It's your problem if you can't understand that key difference.

Isn't this a de-platforming list? Isn't this the same as some "woke" person saying you shouldn't buy XYZ, they are alt-right/anti-woke etc?

   De platforming is denying the chance to be for sale or seen.  Saying, "hey these stupid motherfuckers hate you," is just informing a customer.  No one is saying these people's products shouldnt be there, or even be bought, just that if you give a stupid motherfucker money who told you he hates you, you may want to rethink how you make decisions.   if you are not one of the people the stupid motherfucker hates, do you.