Is there a more balanced term for SJW? "Overt political agenda"? Yeah, that's a mouthful.

Also, the current iteration of TSR does seem to be on the list for ideological reasons only.

  If woke means enemy, I am all for it.  I see no reason, what so ever, to worry about someone being anti woke.  I am sure the woke people are already super, extra special familiar with anyone anti woke.    I keep seeing "view as an enemies list", which to me means it says more about the person with such a concern than the people making it.  Reality is, we are likely going to end up with two separate economies and products.  Plenty of people will still choose from both, and a good number will likely only buy from one or the other.  So be it.  It is not the hand anyone wanted, but you have to play a hand you are dealt, not the one you want.

 Maybe we need to define enemy, because here is sure looks like some people are trying to stretch the meaning of enemy to = people I do not want to give my hard earned currency to.   That is NOT the definition of enemy.    But, if we all want to start to agree enemies are that, along with the rest of the definition, I guess we can.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
  If woke means enemy, I am all for it.  I see no reason, what so ever, to worry about someone being anti woke.  I am sure the woke people are already super, extra special familiar with anyone anti woke.    I keep seeing "view as an enemies list", which to me means it says more about the person with such a concern than the people making it.  Reality is, we are likely going to end up with two separate economies and products.  Plenty of people will still choose from both, and a good number will likely only buy from one or the other.  So be it.  It is not the hand anyone wanted, but you have to play a hand you are dealt, not the one you want.

That's fine if the definitions of the categories are changed, but as it stands now the yellow is

Quotetaken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products

Several of the green entities have taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers. The fact that you or I may agree with that stance shouldn't change how they are categorized. In my opinion the list should either be rebranded as an explicitly anti-woke list, or their should be no double standard and one of the following solutions should be made.

• Split Green into apolitical and anti-woke
• Downgrade the political entities in green
• Upgrade the Yellows which are political but apolitical in their products

Quote from: Ocule on September 14, 2021, 02:11:43 PM
Which btw, Mythras is awesome and their Mythic line of settings actually shot to the top of my list of things to pick up from dtrpg.

The Mythras core and Mythic PDFs are 40% off for 18 more hours, incidentally.

EDIT: "up to 40%" off, but still.

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 03:02:47 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
  If woke means enemy, I am all for it.  I see no reason, what so ever, to worry about someone being anti woke.  I am sure the woke people are already super, extra special familiar with anyone anti woke.    I keep seeing "view as an enemies list", which to me means it says more about the person with such a concern than the people making it.  Reality is, we are likely going to end up with two separate economies and products.  Plenty of people will still choose from both, and a good number will likely only buy from one or the other.  So be it.  It is not the hand anyone wanted, but you have to play a hand you are dealt, not the one you want.

That's fine if the definitions of the categories are changed, but as it stands now the yellow is

Quotetaken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products

Several of the green entities have taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers. The fact that you or I may agree with that stance shouldn't change how they are categorized. In my opinion the list should either be rebranded as an explicitly anti-woke list, or their should be no double standard and one of the following solutions should be made.

• Split Green into apolitical and anti-woke
• Downgrade the political entities in green
• Upgrade the Yellows which are political but apolitical in their products

    I am referring to the dude who keeps attempting to decide where folks put things on the list "so as not to be double standards" when he just wants woke and anti woke in the same category.  These days anti woke is pretty much apolitical. 

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 03:09:47 PM

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 03:02:47 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
  If woke means enemy, I am all for it.  I see no reason, what so ever, to worry about someone being anti woke.  I am sure the woke people are already super, extra special familiar with anyone anti woke.    I keep seeing "view as an enemies list", which to me means it says more about the person with such a concern than the people making it.  Reality is, we are likely going to end up with two separate economies and products.  Plenty of people will still choose from both, and a good number will likely only buy from one or the other.  So be it.  It is not the hand anyone wanted, but you have to play a hand you are dealt, not the one you want.

That's fine if the definitions of the categories are changed, but as it stands now the yellow is

Quotetaken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products

Several of the green entities have taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers. The fact that you or I may agree with that stance shouldn't change how they are categorized. In my opinion the list should either be rebranded as an explicitly anti-woke list, or their should be no double standard and one of the following solutions should be made.

• Split Green into apolitical and anti-woke
• Downgrade the political entities in green
• Upgrade the Yellows which are political but apolitical in their products

    I am referring to the dude who keeps attempting to decide where folks put things on the list "so as not to be double standards" when he just wants woke and anti woke in the same category.  These days anti woke is pretty much apolitical.

Under the current definition, any entity who expresses a political view point should be put in the yellow category. This is de-legitimizing the list as far as it being a neutral buyer's guide.

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 03:29:15 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 03:09:47 PM

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 03:02:47 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
  If woke means enemy, I am all for it.  I see no reason, what so ever, to worry about someone being anti woke.  I am sure the woke people are already super, extra special familiar with anyone anti woke.    I keep seeing "view as an enemies list", which to me means it says more about the person with such a concern than the people making it.  Reality is, we are likely going to end up with two separate economies and products.  Plenty of people will still choose from both, and a good number will likely only buy from one or the other.  So be it.  It is not the hand anyone wanted, but you have to play a hand you are dealt, not the one you want.

That's fine if the definitions of the categories are changed, but as it stands now the yellow is

Quotetaken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products

Several of the green entities have taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers. The fact that you or I may agree with that stance shouldn't change how they are categorized. In my opinion the list should either be rebranded as an explicitly anti-woke list, or their should be no double standard and one of the following solutions should be made.

• Split Green into apolitical and anti-woke
• Downgrade the political entities in green
• Upgrade the Yellows which are political but apolitical in their products

    I am referring to the dude who keeps attempting to decide where folks put things on the list "so as not to be double standards" when he just wants woke and anti woke in the same category.  These days anti woke is pretty much apolitical.

Under the current definition, any entity who expresses a political view point should be put in the yellow category. This is de-legitimizing the list as far as it being a neutral buyer's guide.

  neutral is in the eyes of the beholder.   

error

Quote from: Ocule on September 14, 2021, 02:11:43 PM
Okay so manageable chunks here as this seems to be the man point of the post.

Someone asked the question I was going to ask as a follow up, so I'll let you respond to that.

BUT, I did want to thank you for taking the time to answer my questions fairly. (and you did cut to the gist of what I was saying -- I have a tendency to use 100 words when 10 would do.)

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
  If woke means enemy, I am all for it. 

There were a number of regulars on this forum that took exception to it being called an "Enemies List."

You may feel that's acceptable, but this is where I think there is a divide amongst y'all.

When one points at a group that you consider "not us" and say "They all think and act the same, so I will paint them all with the same brush" then it's hard for you to take exception when that same group looks at you, and all of the people standing near you, and claims "You all think and act the same, so I will paint you all with the same brush."

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 03:48:58 PM

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 03:29:15 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 03:09:47 PM

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 03:02:47 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
  If woke means enemy, I am all for it.  I see no reason, what so ever, to worry about someone being anti woke.  I am sure the woke people are already super, extra special familiar with anyone anti woke.    I keep seeing "view as an enemies list", which to me means it says more about the person with such a concern than the people making it.  Reality is, we are likely going to end up with two separate economies and products.  Plenty of people will still choose from both, and a good number will likely only buy from one or the other.  So be it.  It is not the hand anyone wanted, but you have to play a hand you are dealt, not the one you want.

That's fine if the definitions of the categories are changed, but as it stands now the yellow is

Quotetaken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products

Several of the green entities have taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers. The fact that you or I may agree with that stance shouldn't change how they are categorized. In my opinion the list should either be rebranded as an explicitly anti-woke list, or their should be no double standard and one of the following solutions should be made.

• Split Green into apolitical and anti-woke
• Downgrade the political entities in green
• Upgrade the Yellows which are political but apolitical in their products

    I am referring to the dude who keeps attempting to decide where folks put things on the list "so as not to be double standards" when he just wants woke and anti woke in the same category.  These days anti woke is pretty much apolitical.

Under the current definition, any entity who expresses a political view point should be put in the yellow category. This is de-legitimizing the list as far as it being a neutral buyer's guide.

  neutral is in the eyes of the beholder.

Maybe in some cases but RPGPundit is not neutral in his politics but his games however are apolitical and he is alright with everyone buying and playing his games. Several of the Yellow entities for example, Catalyst game labs, may have a political position on the outside world, but there is nothing on the list that shows that their games are political. For the list to be fair, they should be treated equally. Either find evidence of Catalyst's game content being political, evidence that they tell customers they shouldn't buy their products unless woke, or re-categorize them fairly.

Quote from: hoshisabi on September 14, 2021, 04:06:21 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
  If woke means enemy, I am all for it. 

There were a number of regulars on this forum that took exception to it being called an "Enemies List."

You may feel that's acceptable, but this is where I think there is a divide amongst y'all.

When one points at a group that you consider "not us" and say "They all think and act the same, so I will paint them all with the same brush" then it's hard for you to take exception when that same group looks at you, and all of the people standing near you, and claims "You all think and act the same, so I will paint you all with the same brush."

  I say that because it is explicitly NOT an enemies list.  The only sort of person who would view it as an enemies list, would be, well the sort who puts it in quotes and feels some kind of way about the wokes all being red.  I say I am fine with woke being called an enemies list, not because I view anyone on it as such, but the folks on that list damn sure view me as an enemy.  That make sense?  I no more view woke folks as a direct enemy than I think an insane homeless man in my enemy.   Just something I will probably avoid.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 03:09:47 PM
    I am referring to the dude who keeps attempting to decide where folks put things on the list "so as not to be double standards" when he just wants woke and anti woke in the same category.  These days anti woke is pretty much apolitical.

Ooohhhh... heck no. anti-woke is not apolitical if many "woke" topics are considered political. It's a reaction to a political ideology, a case of "I don't like where this is going and I want to actively have less of it."

When someone asks for your opinion about pizza toppings and you say that you only want plain pizza, you're not some other category. You're still expressing an opinion about pizza toppings.

And while that analogy isn't perfect, getting too much deeper gets into a political discussion that we want to avoid. I just feel that it's pretty easy to point at political opinions in this case when I was able to show an instance of two people with opposing political ideologies as their main distinction, one was listed as green and the other was yellow.

It wasn't speaking of their "woke" versus "anti-woke" stance, merely their political affiliation. So, this list specifically contained an easily identifiable case. And that's no criticism of Ocule. He's taking his own time to categorized things in a way that is useful for himself, and sharing it with others. The fact that others can use it is a by product.

So, I don't want them in the same category. In fact, Ocule and others suggested what I would really like, an alternate category for that specific group. You can call it "blue" or "super green" or whatever. And I'd love to see the same sort of extra justification we've seen for the yellow/red lists, what really places them as not just apolitical but actively anti-woke, so I can decide for myself.

Because there's the merely apolitical, and there's the actively hostile to those with an ideology like my own. Most of the apolitical don't give two cents about my politics, I'm pretty milquetoast and my money is just as green as yours and they're happy to have it. And that's perfect for me.  (just as I'm imagining many of you would feel about a group like SJG, who might have politics you disagree with, but since you never see it in their products, you judge the games by their own merits)

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 04:11:55 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 03:48:58 PM

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 03:29:15 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 03:09:47 PM

Quote from: Korgoth on September 14, 2021, 03:02:47 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 02:55:31 PM
  If woke means enemy, I am all for it.  I see no reason, what so ever, to worry about someone being anti woke.  I am sure the woke people are already super, extra special familiar with anyone anti woke.    I keep seeing "view as an enemies list", which to me means it says more about the person with such a concern than the people making it.  Reality is, we are likely going to end up with two separate economies and products.  Plenty of people will still choose from both, and a good number will likely only buy from one or the other.  So be it.  It is not the hand anyone wanted, but you have to play a hand you are dealt, not the one you want.

That's fine if the definitions of the categories are changed, but as it stands now the yellow is

Quotetaken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products

Several of the green entities have taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers. The fact that you or I may agree with that stance shouldn't change how they are categorized. In my opinion the list should either be rebranded as an explicitly anti-woke list, or their should be no double standard and one of the following solutions should be made.

• Split Green into apolitical and anti-woke
• Downgrade the political entities in green
• Upgrade the Yellows which are political but apolitical in their products

    I am referring to the dude who keeps attempting to decide where folks put things on the list "so as not to be double standards" when he just wants woke and anti woke in the same category.  These days anti woke is pretty much apolitical.

Under the current definition, any entity who expresses a political view point should be put in the yellow category. This is de-legitimizing the list as far as it being a neutral buyer's guide.

  neutral is in the eyes of the beholder.

Maybe in some cases but RPGPundit is not neutral in his politics but his games however are apolitical and he is alright with everyone buying and playing his games. Several of the Yellow entities for example, Catalyst game labs, may have a political position on the outside world, but there is nothing on the list that shows that their games are political. For the list to be fair, they should be treated equally. Either find evidence of Catalyst's game content being political, evidence that they tell customers they shouldn't buy their products unless woke, or re-categorize them fairly.

  I honestly do not think there should be a yellow.  Green or red.  If there is some incident or the like where someone shouted out or gave someone some money, I think it can be given in a description, and if people want to make a more nuanced decision, so be it.