Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 13, 2021, 10:51:47 AM

Quote from: tenbones on September 13, 2021, 10:47:59 AM
He's another grifter doing what grifters do.

Indeed... One minute saying, how shit and 'racist' wotc are. Then sucks of their teet. Theres principals for you. LOL

That is the classic form of the shakedown.   You bad -> gimme gimme -> okay you okay now but could be better -> gimme gimme you no gimme then you bad again -> gimme gimme -> repeat.

Quote from: Gagarth on September 13, 2021, 05:49:58 PM
It's more than a side bar and the whole tone of it is that it's fine to beat the shit out of not just straight white guy characters but actual SWG's in general.  So you whole contention  is because it is not in the books of the 13th Age they should not be on the Red List. Blah to that.

You might want to read posts more carefully. I never said Pelgrane Press should be taken off red; I specifically listed where that quote came from because it's the sort of thing that should be taken into consideration for a list like this. But the PP entry specifically reads: Pelgrane Press (13th Age). It reads like the quote is from 13th Age, not Cthulhu Confidential.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2021, 09:02:16 PM

Quote from: Plotinus on September 12, 2021, 07:48:15 AM

Quote from: shroomster on September 12, 2021, 12:10:30 AM
Wanted to see about possibly getting Tuesday Knight Games added for Mothership RPG as either yellow or red
No anti-customer/individual behaviour that I am aware of, so maybe not red, just very specific overarching themes across many of its paid materials

Examples:
Dead Planet supplement:
descriptions and themes: "The soldiers of the Defiance's last, and poorly paying, job was crushing a loggers strike on a timber planet, silencing their mewling pleas for basic quality of life protections." (workers rights is a common issue in the game, evil corporations being to blame, never other forms of oppression like big government or totalitarianism)
item descriptions: "ZIPPO: FUCK CAPITALISM" (no "f communism" or f any other left-wing political affiliation), "PIN: Bleed the Pigs"
various other items suggesting current world views (anti-religion, pro-fetishism etc)

Pound of Flesh supplement:
Workers union conflict as a central plot of the module (I haven't read PoF that much tbh, but it is sold in "leftism" section of at least one retailer)

Places of authority/leadership disproportionately occupied by non-males: these are nit-picky, but after purchasing all major books/supplements, its quite noticeable and cringy
Haunting of Ypsilon 14: Sonya, mining station lead (1 out of 1)
Dead Planet: Captain Yancheg of the Alexis, colony leader Malta (2 out of 2, unclear who lead the marines of the Defiance, but they were murderers anyways)
Pound of Flesh: Yandu, crime boss and defacto "leader" of Prospero's Dream (referred to by "they," appears feminine in art)
Gradient Descent: Rachel Kilroy, leader of the Trouble-shooters(badass spec ops soldiers, 1/1 as far as humans "in power")
 
I must say that I don't wish anything negative on anyone who is involved in or likes Mothership and I think games like this should definitely exist, but be more upfront about their world views. It is important to point out that in all my time spent playing it with its discord server peeps, I have always had a polite and decent experience (aside from the pronoun stuff and occasional pro-left rants but that's down to individual preference). This is more of a heads up for customers who might be expecting a variety or non-specificity of world views from the game, but later coming to find out its very specific leanings and in-world politics. Obviously in and of itself this is not a criticism of the material, but as a paying customer I would have liked a more upfront disclosure of its politics since it was marketed as an anti-cannon sci-fi horror rpg.

I also have an interest in Mothership, and I would not consider these in-game setting details sufficient to put TKG in yellow, let alone red. The stuff you mentioned from Dead Planet makes me roll my eyes a little, but I have A Pound of Flesh, and I would not say it belabors the teamsters as morally superior victims of evil capitalist overlords or anything like that. The setting is political in some sense, but in a way that feels natural and organic, not in the sense of a preachy, self-righteous, simplistic allegory for specific 21st century issues. And isn't that exactly what we want?

The creators and writers for Mothership are rampant virulent SJWs. One of the writers (Maeve Geist) has repeatedly threatened in tweets to physically attack me with the explicit intent to kill.

Ah, I see. That's very unfortunate about Maeve Geist. I'm glad the only Mothership product I actually bought doesn't seem to have her name attached to it.

Still, I think if they're all progressive totalitarians, it's remarkable how little of that has shown up explicitly in the Mothership products. If the most anyone can point to in the books is a running "union workers good" theme, a handful of in-game artifacts, and women characters in charge of things, we're a long way from Evil Hat or Paizo territory. I haven't seen any of their products contain long protestations about the evil racist roots of the hobby or the sci-fi genre, or large sections dedicated to safety tools, or telling off the evil "fascists" supposedly lurking under every rock in the RPG hobby. And the TKG website is remarkably free from partisan propaganda. Maybe Sean McCoy despises all of us, but it seems like he plays it fairly close to the chest when the actual products are concerned.

Well, the Mothership-specific products anyway; there's always Dissident Whispers. Though even there, while Dissident Whispers is obviously politically partisan, the text doesn't seem to actively antagonize people who disagree; the introduction is written more like a plea. It's pushy, but not demonizing.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2021, 09:02:16 PM

Quote from: Plotinus on September 12, 2021, 07:48:15 AM

Quote from: shroomster on September 12, 2021, 12:10:30 AM
Wanted to see about possibly getting Tuesday Knight Games added for Mothership RPG as either yellow or red
No anti-customer/individual behaviour that I am aware of, so maybe not red, just very specific overarching themes across many of its paid materials

Examples:
Dead Planet supplement:
descriptions and themes: "The soldiers of the Defiance's last, and poorly paying, job was crushing a loggers strike on a timber planet, silencing their mewling pleas for basic quality of life protections." (workers rights is a common issue in the game, evil corporations being to blame, never other forms of oppression like big government or totalitarianism)
item descriptions: "ZIPPO: FUCK CAPITALISM" (no "f communism" or f any other left-wing political affiliation), "PIN: Bleed the Pigs"
various other items suggesting current world views (anti-religion, pro-fetishism etc)

Pound of Flesh supplement:
Workers union conflict as a central plot of the module (I haven't read PoF that much tbh, but it is sold in "leftism" section of at least one retailer)

Places of authority/leadership disproportionately occupied by non-males: these are nit-picky, but after purchasing all major books/supplements, its quite noticeable and cringy
Haunting of Ypsilon 14: Sonya, mining station lead (1 out of 1)
Dead Planet: Captain Yancheg of the Alexis, colony leader Malta (2 out of 2, unclear who lead the marines of the Defiance, but they were murderers anyways)
Pound of Flesh: Yandu, crime boss and defacto "leader" of Prospero's Dream (referred to by "they," appears feminine in art)
Gradient Descent: Rachel Kilroy, leader of the Trouble-shooters(badass spec ops soldiers, 1/1 as far as humans "in power")
 
I must say that I don't wish anything negative on anyone who is involved in or likes Mothership and I think games like this should definitely exist, but be more upfront about their world views. It is important to point out that in all my time spent playing it with its discord server peeps, I have always had a polite and decent experience (aside from the pronoun stuff and occasional pro-left rants but that's down to individual preference). This is more of a heads up for customers who might be expecting a variety or non-specificity of world views from the game, but later coming to find out its very specific leanings and in-world politics. Obviously in and of itself this is not a criticism of the material, but as a paying customer I would have liked a more upfront disclosure of its politics since it was marketed as an anti-cannon sci-fi horror rpg.

I also have an interest in Mothership, and I would not consider these in-game setting details sufficient to put TKG in yellow, let alone red. The stuff you mentioned from Dead Planet makes me roll my eyes a little, but I have A Pound of Flesh, and I would not say it belabors the teamsters as morally superior victims of evil capitalist overlords or anything like that. The setting is political in some sense, but in a way that feels natural and organic, not in the sense of a preachy, self-righteous, simplistic allegory for specific 21st century issues. And isn't that exactly what we want?

The creators and writers for Mothership are rampant virulent SJWs. One of the writers (Maeve Geist) has repeatedly threatened in tweets to physically attack me with the explicit intent to kill.

  I assume this was on twitter?   What leads people to say things like that?  I have doubts most of these people threatening to attack people have ever been in a single altercation (well, one where they actually did anything past getting shoved around) in their entire lives.

Quote from: Plotinus on September 14, 2021, 02:32:19 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2021, 09:02:16 PM

Quote from: Plotinus on September 12, 2021, 07:48:15 AM

Quote from: shroomster on September 12, 2021, 12:10:30 AM
Wanted to see about possibly getting Tuesday Knight Games added for Mothership RPG as either yellow or red
No anti-customer/individual behaviour that I am aware of, so maybe not red, just very specific overarching themes across many of its paid materials
*snip*

I also have an interest in Mothership, and I would not consider these in-game setting details sufficient to put TKG in yellow, let alone red. The stuff you mentioned from Dead Planet makes me roll my eyes a little, but I have A Pound of Flesh, and I would not say it belabors the teamsters as morally superior victims of evil capitalist overlords or anything like that. The setting is political in some sense, but in a way that feels natural and organic, not in the sense of a preachy, self-righteous, simplistic allegory for specific 21st century issues. And isn't that exactly what we want?

The creators and writers for Mothership are rampant virulent SJWs. One of the writers (Maeve Geist) has repeatedly threatened in tweets to physically attack me with the explicit intent to kill.

Ah, I see. That's very unfortunate about Maeve Geist. I'm glad the only Mothership product I actually bought doesn't seem to have her name attached to it.

Still, I think if they're all progressive totalitarians, it's remarkable how little of that has shown up explicitly in the Mothership products. If the most anyone can point to in the books is a running "union workers good" theme, a handful of in-game artifacts, and women characters in charge of things, we're a long way from Evil Hat or Paizo territory. I haven't seen any of their products contain long protestations about the evil racist roots of the hobby or the sci-fi genre, or large sections dedicated to safety tools, or telling off the evil "fascists" supposedly lurking under every rock in the RPG hobby. And the TKG website is remarkably free from partisan propaganda. Maybe Sean McCoy despises all of us, but it seems like he plays it fairly close to the chest when the actual products are concerned.

Well, the Mothership-specific products anyway; there's always Dissident Whispers. Though even there, while Dissident Whispers is obviously politically partisan, the text doesn't seem to actively antagonize people who disagree; the introduction is written more like a plea. It's pushy, but not demonizing.

To me the point of the list is not to keep people from playing these games or put them in some bad corner, but to inform the paying customer about what they might be in for before they make their purchase. If Mosh themes are fun and non-irritating to you, then by all means have at it, you don't need anyone's validation. A game being yellow or red doesn't mean that people shouldn't play it or that its poorly executed (although I do have mechanical gripes with Mosh as well).

I never said that Mosh designers are progressive totalitarians, just that to me the issues I stated were enough to warrant my disappointment with the game. The layout of TKG Mosh products is impressively dense, naturally lacking in space for verbose disclosure of one's politics. So to me the amounts of it that are there relative to the presence of non-left political views is enough to cringe. Any mention of anti-capitalism or workers rights immediately reminds me of Yuri Bezmenov's disclosure of a marxist indoctrination tactic of destabilizing labour relations, so if the alternative world view is not presented (workers choosing to be lazy, non-nefarious corporations, honourable military etc) its a red flag for me. 

I've also played and ran a lot of Mosh on their discord before I got fed up with the pronoun games and absence of any alternate world views, and can attest to it being full of sjw's, albeit mostly polite and friendly ones. The sense I got was that Mosh was a game by mostly-mellow lefties for other mostly-mellow lefties. If people enjoy their sci-fi with a dose of left-leaning politics, enjoy the company of those that do, or have a high tolerance for it, more power to them, its none of my business, but I'll go play something else. As I covered in my previous posts I just wish they were more upfront about it so I know to put my money elsewhere, like this small retailer clearly categorizes it:

https://www.rookspress.com/collections/leftism
(note Postcards from Cable Street also mentions Mothership by name)

Quote from: shroomster on September 14, 2021, 07:14:16 AM

Quote from: Plotinus on September 14, 2021, 02:32:19 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2021, 09:02:16 PM

Quote from: Plotinus on September 12, 2021, 07:48:15 AM

Quote from: shroomster on September 12, 2021, 12:10:30 AM
Wanted to see about possibly getting Tuesday Knight Games added for Mothership RPG as either yellow or red
No anti-customer/individual behaviour that I am aware of, so maybe not red, just very specific overarching themes across many of its paid materials
*snip*

I also have an interest in Mothership, and I would not consider these in-game setting details sufficient to put TKG in yellow, let alone red. The stuff you mentioned from Dead Planet makes me roll my eyes a little, but I have A Pound of Flesh, and I would not say it belabors the teamsters as morally superior victims of evil capitalist overlords or anything like that. The setting is political in some sense, but in a way that feels natural and organic, not in the sense of a preachy, self-righteous, simplistic allegory for specific 21st century issues. And isn't that exactly what we want?

The creators and writers for Mothership are rampant virulent SJWs. One of the writers (Maeve Geist) has repeatedly threatened in tweets to physically attack me with the explicit intent to kill.

Ah, I see. That's very unfortunate about Maeve Geist. I'm glad the only Mothership product I actually bought doesn't seem to have her name attached to it.

Still, I think if they're all progressive totalitarians, it's remarkable how little of that has shown up explicitly in the Mothership products. If the most anyone can point to in the books is a running "union workers good" theme, a handful of in-game artifacts, and women characters in charge of things, we're a long way from Evil Hat or Paizo territory. I haven't seen any of their products contain long protestations about the evil racist roots of the hobby or the sci-fi genre, or large sections dedicated to safety tools, or telling off the evil "fascists" supposedly lurking under every rock in the RPG hobby. And the TKG website is remarkably free from partisan propaganda. Maybe Sean McCoy despises all of us, but it seems like he plays it fairly close to the chest when the actual products are concerned.

Well, the Mothership-specific products anyway; there's always Dissident Whispers. Though even there, while Dissident Whispers is obviously politically partisan, the text doesn't seem to actively antagonize people who disagree; the introduction is written more like a plea. It's pushy, but not demonizing.

To me the point of the list is not to keep people from playing these games or put them in some bad corner, but to inform the paying customer about what they might be in for before they make their purchase. If Mosh themes are fun and non-irritating to you, then by all means have at it, you don't need anyone's validation. A game being yellow or red doesn't mean that people shouldn't play it or that its poorly executed (although I do have mechanical gripes with Mosh as well).

I never said that Mosh designers are progressive totalitarians, just that to me the issues I stated were enough to warrant my disappointment with the game. The layout of TKG Mosh products is impressively dense, naturally lacking in space for verbose disclosure of one's politics. So to me the amounts of it that are there relative to the presence of non-left political views is enough to cringe. Any mention of anti-capitalism or workers rights immediately reminds me of Yuri Bezmenov's disclosure of a marxist indoctrination tactic of destabilizing labour relations, so if the alternative world view is not presented (workers choosing to be lazy, non-nefarious corporations, honourable military etc) its a red flag for me. 

I've also played and ran a lot of Mosh on their discord before I got fed up with the pronoun games and absence of any alternate world views, and can attest to it being full of sjw's, albeit mostly polite and friendly ones. The sense I got was that Mosh was a game by mostly-mellow lefties for other mostly-mellow lefties. If people enjoy their sci-fi with a dose of left-leaning politics, enjoy the company of those that do, or have a high tolerance for it, more power to them, its none of my business, but I'll go play something else. As I covered in my previous posts I just wish they were more upfront about it so I know to put my money elsewhere, like this small retailer clearly categorizes it:

https://www.rookspress.com/collections/leftism
(note Postcards from Cable Street also mentions Mothership by name)

If only they were so kind as to categorize themselves all the time it would make projects like this pointless lol

Quote from: Aaron_Alexander on September 13, 2021, 06:13:40 AM
I've a candidate for a green entry.

Look up Incel Riot Studios.  They have a card game out called Virtue Signal and they're working on another game called POZ (Portland Occupied Zone).

Both of these games lampoon the hell out of craptivist/woke culture.  Take a look at their trailer for Virtue Signal's expansion called Deplorables.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYoaZdQYuJo

That  might be so but they're not RPGs, are they?

Quote from: Howard on September 13, 2021, 01:07:47 AM
Quote: Green: Amarillo Design Bureau (Prime Directive RPG)

As a long term customer, forum lurker, occasional proofreader (not of their RPG line however), and friend of their RPG person, I can say: she has been apolitical for the decade plus I've known her. Their wargame developers have expressed their politics (but still not in their gaming material) - not woke.

I agree green is the correct category. Polish the above to taste.

Prime Directive was the best Star Trek game ever!

Quote from: Korgoth on September 13, 2021, 09:50:06 AM
It's interesting how disingenuous commenters from other forums are about this list.

It recently made reddit and for example they took "Hiring Daniel Kwan" as "hired an Asian person". For those who don't know, Daniel Kwan is the guy who got several old DnD books to remove PoD and to put up the disclaimer about how racist all WotC products are.

Another interesting fact, Daniel Kwan's company, Dundas west games, is named after a politician who delayed the abolition of slavery. He should change the name or admit his white supremacy and internalized racism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Dundas%2C_1st_Viscount_Melville#Controversy_over_legacy

That's a little ironic, but it's probably just named after the street in Toronto, which is of course named after Henry Dundas.

Kind of a pity for them they aren't on Simcoe street. John Graves Simcoe was the first Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada (what is today Ontario), and he abolished slavery there even before the rest of the British Empire did it.

He's also portrayed as a psychopathic maniac in the (obviously American-made) Revolutionary War spy thriller "Turn":

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 13, 2021, 10:51:47 AM

Quote from: tenbones on September 13, 2021, 10:47:59 AM
He's another grifter doing what grifters do.

Indeed... One minute saying, how shit and 'racist' wotc are. Then sucks of their teet. Theres principals for you. LOL

Not just that, but Khwan's "asian" themed Candlekeep adventure was in no way more in-depth or authentic than what any white guy who watched a lot of kung fu movies could have written. There was literally no difference that justified his argument that only people of Chinese blood could possibly write asian-themed RPG material.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 06:19:19 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2021, 09:02:16 PM

Quote from: Plotinus on September 12, 2021, 07:48:15 AM

Quote from: shroomster on September 12, 2021, 12:10:30 AM
Wanted to see about possibly getting Tuesday Knight Games added for Mothership RPG as either yellow or red
No anti-customer/individual behaviour that I am aware of, so maybe not red, just very specific overarching themes across many of its paid materials

Examples:
Dead Planet supplement:
descriptions and themes: "The soldiers of the Defiance's last, and poorly paying, job was crushing a loggers strike on a timber planet, silencing their mewling pleas for basic quality of life protections." (workers rights is a common issue in the game, evil corporations being to blame, never other forms of oppression like big government or totalitarianism)
item descriptions: "ZIPPO: FUCK CAPITALISM" (no "f communism" or f any other left-wing political affiliation), "PIN: Bleed the Pigs"
various other items suggesting current world views (anti-religion, pro-fetishism etc)

Pound of Flesh supplement:
Workers union conflict as a central plot of the module (I haven't read PoF that much tbh, but it is sold in "leftism" section of at least one retailer)

Places of authority/leadership disproportionately occupied by non-males: these are nit-picky, but after purchasing all major books/supplements, its quite noticeable and cringy
Haunting of Ypsilon 14: Sonya, mining station lead (1 out of 1)
Dead Planet: Captain Yancheg of the Alexis, colony leader Malta (2 out of 2, unclear who lead the marines of the Defiance, but they were murderers anyways)
Pound of Flesh: Yandu, crime boss and defacto "leader" of Prospero's Dream (referred to by "they," appears feminine in art)
Gradient Descent: Rachel Kilroy, leader of the Trouble-shooters(badass spec ops soldiers, 1/1 as far as humans "in power")
 
I must say that I don't wish anything negative on anyone who is involved in or likes Mothership and I think games like this should definitely exist, but be more upfront about their world views. It is important to point out that in all my time spent playing it with its discord server peeps, I have always had a polite and decent experience (aside from the pronoun stuff and occasional pro-left rants but that's down to individual preference). This is more of a heads up for customers who might be expecting a variety or non-specificity of world views from the game, but later coming to find out its very specific leanings and in-world politics. Obviously in and of itself this is not a criticism of the material, but as a paying customer I would have liked a more upfront disclosure of its politics since it was marketed as an anti-cannon sci-fi horror rpg.

I also have an interest in Mothership, and I would not consider these in-game setting details sufficient to put TKG in yellow, let alone red. The stuff you mentioned from Dead Planet makes me roll my eyes a little, but I have A Pound of Flesh, and I would not say it belabors the teamsters as morally superior victims of evil capitalist overlords or anything like that. The setting is political in some sense, but in a way that feels natural and organic, not in the sense of a preachy, self-righteous, simplistic allegory for specific 21st century issues. And isn't that exactly what we want?

The creators and writers for Mothership are rampant virulent SJWs. One of the writers (Maeve Geist) has repeatedly threatened in tweets to physically attack me with the explicit intent to kill.

  I assume this was on twitter?   What leads people to say things like that?  I have doubts most of these people threatening to attack people have ever been in a single altercation (well, one where they actually did anything past getting shoved around) in their entire lives.

This was actually on G+, but for all I know Geist may have repeated it on Twitter, where Geist has me conveniently blocked.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 14, 2021, 10:32:50 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 06:19:19 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2021, 09:02:16 PM

Quote from: Plotinus on September 12, 2021, 07:48:15 AM

Quote from: shroomster on September 12, 2021, 12:10:30 AM
Wanted to see about possibly getting Tuesday Knight Games added for Mothership RPG as either yellow or red
No anti-customer/individual behaviour that I am aware of, so maybe not red, just very specific overarching themes across many of its paid materials

Examples:
Dead Planet supplement:
descriptions and themes: "The soldiers of the Defiance's last, and poorly paying, job was crushing a loggers strike on a timber planet, silencing their mewling pleas for basic quality of life protections." (workers rights is a common issue in the game, evil corporations being to blame, never other forms of oppression like big government or totalitarianism)
item descriptions: "ZIPPO: FUCK CAPITALISM" (no "f communism" or f any other left-wing political affiliation), "PIN: Bleed the Pigs"
various other items suggesting current world views (anti-religion, pro-fetishism etc)

Pound of Flesh supplement:
Workers union conflict as a central plot of the module (I haven't read PoF that much tbh, but it is sold in "leftism" section of at least one retailer)

Places of authority/leadership disproportionately occupied by non-males: these are nit-picky, but after purchasing all major books/supplements, its quite noticeable and cringy
Haunting of Ypsilon 14: Sonya, mining station lead (1 out of 1)
Dead Planet: Captain Yancheg of the Alexis, colony leader Malta (2 out of 2, unclear who lead the marines of the Defiance, but they were murderers anyways)
Pound of Flesh: Yandu, crime boss and defacto "leader" of Prospero's Dream (referred to by "they," appears feminine in art)
Gradient Descent: Rachel Kilroy, leader of the Trouble-shooters(badass spec ops soldiers, 1/1 as far as humans "in power")
 
I must say that I don't wish anything negative on anyone who is involved in or likes Mothership and I think games like this should definitely exist, but be more upfront about their world views. It is important to point out that in all my time spent playing it with its discord server peeps, I have always had a polite and decent experience (aside from the pronoun stuff and occasional pro-left rants but that's down to individual preference). This is more of a heads up for customers who might be expecting a variety or non-specificity of world views from the game, but later coming to find out its very specific leanings and in-world politics. Obviously in and of itself this is not a criticism of the material, but as a paying customer I would have liked a more upfront disclosure of its politics since it was marketed as an anti-cannon sci-fi horror rpg.

I also have an interest in Mothership, and I would not consider these in-game setting details sufficient to put TKG in yellow, let alone red. The stuff you mentioned from Dead Planet makes me roll my eyes a little, but I have A Pound of Flesh, and I would not say it belabors the teamsters as morally superior victims of evil capitalist overlords or anything like that. The setting is political in some sense, but in a way that feels natural and organic, not in the sense of a preachy, self-righteous, simplistic allegory for specific 21st century issues. And isn't that exactly what we want?

The creators and writers for Mothership are rampant virulent SJWs. One of the writers (Maeve Geist) has repeatedly threatened in tweets to physically attack me with the explicit intent to kill.

  I assume this was on twitter?   What leads people to say things like that?  I have doubts most of these people threatening to attack people have ever been in a single altercation (well, one where they actually did anything past getting shoved around) in their entire lives.

This was actually on G+, but for all I know Geist may have repeated it on Twitter, where Geist has me conveniently blocked.

This is why stuff like that needs to be screenshot.

Ok, I've been playing nicely, I've let a lot of things go, but I still have a question. I apologize, please keep an open mind when answering.


This is the reason for a green rating:

Quote from: Ocule on September 12, 2021, 05:41:56 PM
These are entities that have not engaged in any known anti-consumer behavior and generally have remained apolitical.

This is the reason for a yellow rating:

Quote
Entities in this section have engaged in some questionable behavior, taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products. Entities here have not caused any harm or engaged in anti-consumer behavior.

So the difference between green and yellow is that they have engaged in questionable behavior or taken a political stance that alienates a customer or preaches in their products.

You listed multiple entries in the green list that took an Anti-SJW and anti-woke position. (I'll just pick two to make it easy)

Quote

• Kort'thalis Publishing/Venger Satanis (Alpha Blue, Cha'alt) Anti SJW, Strong stance on free speech
• TSR Hobbies Takes a stand to be pro free speech and anti censorship. This is the new incarnation of TSR headed by Justin La Nasa and Ernie Gygax.

TSR hobbies takes strong positions online, Justin LaNasa has actually run for office on those. They also have no products yet, so I wonder about their notability to be included in the list.

And Kort'thalis is listed as "Anti-SJW" and there are customers who have SJW views, so taking a strong opinion against them ... does that not mean that they are alienating those customers?

I mean, I'm not trying to say "don't make them green" but rather that this isn't a case of not alienating people AND remaining apolitical. There's other examples, but I just picked a few.

And so, I'll just pick one entry in the yellow list that surprised me.

Quote

• GURPs/Steve Jackson Games Signed October Surprise/Gamers for Hillary in 2020, which makes the stance official. However their products remain largely apolitical.

Now I knew that Steve Jackson was not as conservative as many of his fellow Texans, but I was unaware of his participation in the october-surprise website. I didn't even know such a thing existed until I searched. And I've been a happy customer of theirs for decades, so honestly, I don't see much reason for them to be on the yellow list. They hire people of lots of different political positions, you'll see a few folks on the list that work on Munchkin and Ogre and other things, but also Philip Reed who does work on GURPS. BUT, you don't see everyone that works on GURPS, they've got a wide variety of political opinions.

Are you saying that a single leftist opinion is a thought crime? Or the owner have a political opinion is one?

And if the list is about being apolitical, why is Mr. Jackson's opinions worthy of yellow and not Mr. LaNasa, who literally ran for office with those opinions?

And if you explain it away with some explanation that says "But the left doesn't believe ... " or "the right wants..." then you're expressing an opinion that is political yourself. People with many political positions are games consumers, and you might not want to buy a product that espouses hatred of you... That doesn't seem to be what you're rating.

You seem to be DIGGING for political opinions expressed by some of the owners and writers, and the ones you agree with get on the green list, and the ones you don't like are yellow or red.

So, you might need to forgive those who see this list as an "enemies list" for drawing that conclusion. Your criteria is stated as merely being about alienating of customers and remaining apolitical, but you are free with a pat on the back and an "attaboy" for those that express the right political opinion and as long as they alienate the right people.

QuoteAre you saying that a single leftist opinion is a thought crime? Or the owner have a political opinion is one?

And if the list is about being apolitical, why is Mr. Jackson's opinions worthy of yellow and not Mr. LaNasa, who literally ran for office with those opinions?

Okay so manageable chunks here as this seems to be the man point of the post. Personally I hate the concept of left and right because they're arbitrary and meaningless these days. So Mr. LaNasa as far as I can tell has not mixed new tsr (which is what it was presented to me in DM I have not heard back if the name has switched to Wonderfilled) and his position in political office. Everything i've seen from new tsr has been pro free speech, anti censorship.

Mr. Jackson's opinions were signed as a pro hillary and anti trump page (August Surprise) while representing his company. I actually think Mr. Jackson from what I've heard is a pretty good guy, and I was meaning to expand why it's in the yellow. I did receive more information privately from a reliable source that wished to remain anonymous, and sharing the details of what was shared with me I felt would jeopardize his anonymity. If not for this I would have likely placed SJG under green, because you are right simply having an opinion on who should be president shouldn't actually have an impact on their placing on this list.

I will be upfront about this part though I am quite a bit harsher on things that would place them in the neo-liberal/post modernist camp. I have no issue with liberals or conservatives but the camp here that I am being critical of is one whose whole existence is based against these principles, so the biggest reason for having a yellow category was supposed to be a caution against a company that might be heading in that direction but otherwise has not yet reached that point.

As far as why anti-sjw and anti-woke are listed as green is largely because of what that position brings to the table. Take RPG Pundit for example, he makes his position known on various issues and has youtube videos dedicated to politics in gaming even here on this forum but anyone can engage in a civil debate and products like Lion and Dragon don't include contemporary politics while not including any of the historical revisionism we see in the post modernist/neoliberal view. Venger Satanis as far as I can tell is in a similar boat where his stance on sjws and post modernists is plainly known and his products like Alpha Blue seem to push the boundries of taboo, which is usually a good sign for artistic expression across the board. The things opposed to this usually involve a very strict purity test. Requiring certain elements be present or omitted from a game, that your art has a certain style to it or be considered halal (look at comics, video games and movies that attractive women are considered taboo now)

So i'm taking into account what such a position entails. If the author of an rpg has a strong post modernist viewpoint, then it would be something to be wary of in the future direction of otherwise good products and conduct. Every single entry under red would have been categorized as yellow at one point, and most of them have only started these behaviors after that ideology in particular has reached a critical mass and is now perceived as okay. Apparently even evil hat/fate used to be awesome until at some point Fred Hicks went completely batshit and now believes in things like deplatforming critics and anti competitive behavior (i know there is a better word for it but it escapes me at the moment. But its when you use your pull in a market to remove competition using dishonest strategies such as getting competition pulled from storefronts by spreading rumors about them or threatening store owners). This is probably the most subjective category of the list.

You can see that there are at least two entries in red, that would be considered right wing by the american left but are included because they fit the description of why other people have found themselves in the red category.

Anyway I hope it clears things up and I really do listen to constructive feedback. The list has actually underwent several changes because of such feedback. An opinion was presented and a case was made and I was convinced. Other things I got wrong and were cleared up either by other posters or the entry in question. Like the Design Mechanism was initially red because of a rumor which also was a bit unfair. They reached out to me and clarified a few things and got placed in green for being awesome. Which btw, Mythras is awesome and their Mythic line of settings actually shot to the top of my list of things to pick up from dtrpg.

Quote from: Ocule on September 14, 2021, 02:11:43 PM

QuoteAre you saying that a single leftist opinion is a thought crime? Or the owner have a political opinion is one?

And if the list is about being apolitical, why is Mr. Jackson's opinions worthy of yellow and not Mr. LaNasa, who literally ran for office with those opinions?

Okay so manageable chunks here as this seems to be the man point of the post. Personally I hate the concept of left and right because they're arbitrary and meaningless these days. So Mr. LaNasa as far as I can tell has not mixed new tsr (which is what it was presented to me in DM I have not heard back if the name has switched to Wonderfilled) and his position in political office. Everything i've seen from new tsr has been pro free speech, anti censorship.

Mr. Jackson's opinions were signed as a pro hillary and anti trump page (August Surprise) while representing his company. I actually think Mr. Jackson from what I've heard is a pretty good guy, and I was meaning to expand why it's in the yellow. I did receive more information privately from a reliable source that wished to remain anonymous, and sharing the details of what was shared with me I felt would jeopardize his anonymity. If not for this I would have likely placed SJG under green, because you are right simply having an opinion on who should be president shouldn't actually have an impact on their placing on this list.

I will be upfront about this part though I am quite a bit harsher on things that would place them in the neo-liberal/post modernist camp. I have no issue with liberals or conservatives but the camp here that I am being critical of is one whose whole existence is based against these principles, so the biggest reason for having a yellow category was supposed to be a caution against a company that might be heading in that direction but otherwise has not yet reached that point.

As far as why anti-sjw and anti-woke are listed as green is largely because of what that position brings to the table. Take RPG Pundit for example, he makes his position known on various issues and has youtube videos dedicated to politics in gaming even here on this forum but anyone can engage in a civil debate and products like Lion and Dragon don't include contemporary politics while not including any of the historical revisionism we see in the post modernist/neoliberal view. Venger Satanis as far as I can tell is in a similar boat where his stance on sjws and post modernists is plainly known and his products like Alpha Blue seem to push the boundries of taboo, which is usually a good sign for artistic expression across the board. The things opposed to this usually involve a very strict purity test. Requiring certain elements be present or omitted from a game, that your art has a certain style to it or be considered halal (look at comics, video games and movies that attractive women are considered taboo now)

So i'm taking into account what such a position entails. If the author of an rpg has a strong post modernist viewpoint, then it would be something to be wary of in the future direction of otherwise good products and conduct. Every single entry under red would have been categorized as yellow at one point, and most of them have only started these behaviors after that ideology in particular has reached a critical mass and is now perceived as okay. Apparently even evil hat/fate used to be awesome until at some point Fred Hicks went completely batshit and now believes in things like deplatforming critics and anti competitive behavior (i know there is a better word for it but it escapes me at the moment. But its when you use your pull in a market to remove competition using dishonest strategies such as getting competition pulled from storefronts by spreading rumors about them or threatening store owners). This is probably the most subjective category of the list.

You can see that there are at least two entries in red, that would be considered right wing by the american left but are included because they fit the description of why other people have found themselves in the red category.

Anyway I hope it clears things up and I really do listen to constructive feedback. The list has actually underwent several changes because of such feedback. An opinion was presented and a case was made and I was convinced. Other things I got wrong and were cleared up either by other posters or the entry in question. Like the Design Mechanism was initially red because of a rumor which also was a bit unfair. They reached out to me and clarified a few things and got placed in green for being awesome. Which btw, Mythras is awesome and their Mythic line of settings actually shot to the top of my list of things to pick up from dtrpg.

I do think there is a double standard being highlighted here though. It seems like if a game is apolitical but the owner/company is woke, then it becomes a yellow or red but if a game is apolitical and the owner is anti-woke then it becomes a green. I think you need to decide if you are evaluating the products they make or the employees of the companies.