Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 08, 2021, 10:14:14 AM
Just a quick query about the list.

How do you handle a situation where you dislike an rpg's creator, for his public and toxic woke insanity but think the company, that could be publishing several different creators, is actually okay (AKA - not woke)?

How do you guys think that should be handled? Do you think there's a point to calling out specific product lines - If created by that toxic/woke person who is detrimental to the hobby as a whole?

Interested to hear your thoughts, Ta'.

Perhaps put the publisher as yellow (for knowingly working with the insane), but then a specific call out to the author/products in red?

This list is a good thing. Nice work! I've long been on the fence about stuff like this, but reading the vitriolic reaction by woke types and the calm and collected thoughts of regular people (aka, this site and a few other internet nooks), I'm not on the fence any more.

It's obvious how a company can go from green to yellow and red. How does a company move the other way? Do they need to renounce their past doings or does time heal all wounds? Just an idle thought. I suppose we all have an interest in keeping it up to date and that will happen organically.

Quote from: wmarshal on September 08, 2021, 09:26:51 AM
As far as I know there isn't a list of "hate sites" at TBP that users are forbidden linking to. PLT at may be why the poster didn't catch a ban. However, if TBP is now identifying some gaming sites as hate sites I wouldn't be surprised if they're looking into doing a purge of their members that are also members here under their rule 0. If they can ban a member for working for ICE I don't see what stops them from banning folks who are members here.

I would like to note that Thorn Drumheller ate a permaban from TBP for ... well, who the fuck knows. No post was referenced in the ban notice.

But we should move this digression to the TBP thread if we continue it

Quote from: rytrasmi on September 08, 2021, 10:31:02 AM
It's obvious how a company can go from green to yellow and red. How does a company move the other way? Do they need to renounce their past doings or does time heal all wounds?

Redemption can happen in the OSR.

Quote from: Ocule on September 08, 2021, 09:10:34 AM

Quote from: Pat on September 08, 2021, 08:04:57 AM

Quote from: Hopladamus on September 08, 2021, 07:58:24 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on September 08, 2021, 04:32:32 AM
Is it possible to land on the Red list by being a full-on Nazi? People talk about "normal" gamers but I see a lot of right, far-right, and eccentric attitudes expressed in this thread that don't fly with "normal gamers" insofar as that's a thing. So I'm really wondering if being apolitical is the Green standard here, or if this is just a deck shuffle to really say right-wing, conservative, or retrograde politics.
Oh, and thank you, posters with less than 10 posts, for showing up and registering to post the absolute worst takes on everything.

I and Ocule have touched upon this subject a bit. Basically, I suggested that we separate the neutral/undecided/unknown and anti-SJW list as well as the SJW and alt-right list. The only people on the Anti-SJW list would be the people who have explicitly stated that they are opposed to SJWs, not the people that we suspect of being anti-SJWs. I have also listed a couple of more names for the neutral list as well as a couple of names for the hypothetical alt-right list. Unfortunately, I still haven't heard back from Ocule regarding this idea. Hopefully, he sees this post.

It's a terrible idea. If the list is to maintain any fairness, it needs to address bad actors, not political alignments. Red should be those who exclude, not just those who are the Sharp Point on Political Axis X. Green should be the companies who welcome anyone of any political stripe, as long as they meet some basic standards of decency.

Myfarog guy should definitely be red.

Sorry comments are hard to keep up with, this thread is so active. I was thinking about this for the past few days and I agree, I'm going to add MyFarog and a the judges guild guy to red. The guide should encompass overall practices as a buyers guide. Like a buyers beware this will involve changing some of the language I initially used to categorize the various entities. Of course the spiel of "if you don't like our politics or voted for x don't buy our games" will still be categorized as red. Yellow should be a bit more defined as well.

New definitions might shift some of the yellows around as well to either green or red. Though I predict mostly towards green. My goal is to make it so only an absolute tard could possibly mistake it for a hate list or black list

Don't forget to add Vox Day to one of these lists. He could be Red cause he's alt-right or green cause he publishes works from anyone, even people he vehemently disagrees with (Such as Ken Burnside). Maybe the yellow list would be a good compromise from him. Glenn Rahman and Ken St. Andre should go on Green for the reasons that I provided. Tenkar should go on the green list (for now) with a footnote that he did do some unsavory things in the past (or at least put him on the yellow list).

I maintain that the anti-SJW and neutral lists should be separated so as to avoid problems for the neutrals. I have suggested that only people that openly declare themselves to be anti-SJWs should be on the Anti-SJW list. It would be stupid to antagonize any neutrals over this. If anyone remembers the people who were suggested as replacements for Grim Jim after he left IC, then let me and Ocule know.

I also agree that only designers of some note should be on this list so as to avoid attention seekers hoping to gain fame/infamy.

Quote from: rytrasmi on September 08, 2021, 10:31:02 AM
This list is a good thing. Nice work! I've long been on the fence about stuff like this, but reading the vitriolic reaction by woke types and the calm and collected thoughts of regular people (aka, this site and a few other internet nooks), I'm not on the fence any more.

It's obvious how a company can go from green to yellow and red. How does a company move the other way? Do they need to renounce their past doings or does time heal all wounds? Just an idle thought. I suppose we all have an interest in keeping it up to date and that will happen organically.

Talk would be nice, but still cheap.  Action is what changes things.  I'd like to see currently woke companies speak out against radical-leftist policies and programs, renounce organizations like Antifa and BLM, be more inclusive to regular gamers (even if they are straight, white, and male), and actually have a sense of humor, instead of the typical sarcasm masquerading as humor.

I suggest a 4th category, with some drab color, maybe "brown", that is "not enough information to decide".  Likely, people won't stay there for long, but you need a dumping ground for a few entries to note that they've been considered but no determination made.  Also, will annoy the hell out of a few SJW companies if they end up there, causing them to out themselves.

Okay so I just put up some major changes to language, added a forward, moved some entries around who were probably miscategorized and fixed some descriptions and added links to certain things. Also added Vikernes and Bob Bledsaw II to the guide as well

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RlX78Yw9lbUMk2QwAZdpwNRGAd4Xe69eFgnFymWz6M0/edit?usp=sharing

Quote from: Ocule on September 08, 2021, 11:36:18 AM
Okay so I just put up some major changes to language, added a forward, moved some entries around who were probably miscategorized and fixed some descriptions and added links to certain things. Also added Vikernes and Bob Bledsaw II to the guide as well

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RlX78Yw9lbUMk2QwAZdpwNRGAd4Xe69eFgnFymWz6M0/edit?usp=sharing

Did you remember to lock the fucking document against editing this time?

(Yeah, you're gonna be getting flak for that one for a while, buddy.)

Related news, TBP has opted to not allow specific discussion of the list. Dawgstar's comment:

QuoteNo. After discussion backstage the mods have decided if you want to talk about companies that are doing well on some issues (or doing poorly), feel free. There is no need to reference or lend any credence or validity to a list put together by a bunch of hatemongers.

With the question answered, thread closed.

Which one of us is the hatemonger, Dawggy-boy? The one who says 'Don't buy this because they hate you and have said so', or the one who says 'This person is problematic and should be driven out of the hobby and their ability to do business ruined'?

Personally I can forgive people a hell of a lot easier than I can forgive companies.

So while I might buy from a person who has reformed I'm much more resistant from buying anything from a company who has crossed the line.

Came here from Twitter, signed up here to say awesome list! Keep up the good work.

Nice update and well-written neutral preamble.

Good to see that there are enough great games on the green list to occupy me for several lifetimes.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 08, 2021, 11:45:45 AM

Quote from: Ocule on September 08, 2021, 11:36:18 AM
Okay so I just put up some major changes to language, added a forward, moved some entries around who were probably miscategorized and fixed some descriptions and added links to certain things. Also added Vikernes and Bob Bledsaw II to the guide as well

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RlX78Yw9lbUMk2QwAZdpwNRGAd4Xe69eFgnFymWz6M0/edit?usp=sharing

Did you remember to lock the fucking document against editing this time?

(Yeah, you're gonna be getting flak for that one for a while, buddy.)

Related news, TBP has opted to not allow specific discussion of the list. Dawgstar's comment:

QuoteNo. After discussion backstage the mods have decided if you want to talk about companies that are doing well on some issues (or doing poorly), feel free. There is no need to reference or lend any credence or validity to a list put together by a bunch of hatemongers.

With the question answered, thread closed.

Which one of us is the hatemonger, Dawggy-boy? The one who says 'Don't buy this because they hate you and have said so', or the one who says 'This person is problematic and should be driven out of the hobby and their ability to do business ruined'?

Lol I figured, it was my fault. At first I thought I was hacked but I didnt know suggestions still show on the actual page. So yeah it's read only, ill be looking at feedback from here. I've really enjoyed a lot of the praise it has gotten, but I will say some of the legitimate criticisms like from Grim Jim really helped as well. I saw how it could really just come off as a blacklist or just be out of malice. When I first started typing it was such a small group I really didnt give a fuck, a random discussion thread and if people found it useful then great, if not it would be forgotten and buried under more interesting threads. But since people are actually using it I wanted to make it a bit more quality than just a random post.

Quote from: Gameogre on September 08, 2021, 11:51:36 AM
Personally I can forgive people a hell of a lot easier than I can forgive companies.

So while I might buy from a person who has reformed I'm much more resistant from buying anything from a company who has crossed the line.

And yeah I agree. If anyone on this guide has been doing good things i'd especially like to hear em. I removed alot of descriptions of the entities in the green category because they were just a waste of space. They're neutral or haven't done anything wrong. And if someone who was categorized as yellow or red does something redeeming or at least recognizes mistakes they've made i'd love to move em into a higher category. If we are lucky then this sort of attention of that kind of behavior can discourage people or companies from engaging in it. Like I've been trying to stress in the forward though, i'd rather focus on the good actors rather than the bad ones.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 08, 2021, 10:14:14 AM
Just a quick query about the list.

How do you handle a situation where you dislike an rpg's creator, for his public and toxic woke insanity but think the company, that could be publishing several different creators, is actually okay (AKA - not woke)?

How do you guys think that should be handled? Do you think there's a point to calling out specific product lines - If created by that toxic/woke person who is detrimental to the hobby as a whole?

Interested to hear your thoughts, Ta'.

So far I'm thinking to take it into account depending on their level of involvement. If they're exclusively a publishing house I'd say they probably shouldn't get much blame for things their creators do. But some names are synonymous with their associated companies like Fred hicks and evil hat

Quote from: Ocule on September 08, 2021, 11:36:18 AM
Okay so I just put up some major changes to language, added a forward, moved some entries around who were probably miscategorized and fixed some descriptions and added links to certain things. Also added Vikernes and Bob Bledsaw II to the guide as well

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RlX78Yw9lbUMk2QwAZdpwNRGAd4Xe69eFgnFymWz6M0/edit?usp=sharing

Should probably remove the rumor about Diogo wanting to punch Venger. He denied it on Pundit's video and there doesn't seem to be any evidence that he did say it.