Quote from: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 07:00:18 PM
Damn near everyone is "a little self-serving" with their public online presence. If they're not, they're doing it wrong.

I mean once again true, the end goal is to sell a product

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on August 05, 2021, 07:06:28 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 07:00:18 PM
Damn near everyone is "a little self-serving" with their public online presence. If they're not, they're doing it wrong.

I mean once again true, the end goal is to sell a product

See almost any video by Pundit for an example. Even when he's reviewing someone else's product,  he's spending at least as much effort trying to sell his own.

I was disappointed with C7's Warhammer 4e wokeness, but it should have come as no surprise really, as C7 seem to be pretty SJW friendly with their other titles.

I loved the original WFRP game as it was completely irreverent and were full of that English black humor.

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 07:10:10 PM

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on August 05, 2021, 07:06:28 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 07:00:18 PM
Damn near everyone is "a little self-serving" with their public online presence. If they're not, they're doing it wrong.

I mean once again true, the end goal is to sell a product

See almost any video by Pundit for an example. Even when he's reviewing someone else's product,  he's spending at least as much effort trying to sell his own.

Yeah, totally, promoting your products on your YT channel at the end of a review is EXACTLY the same as gamming the system to attain gold best seller...

HappyDerp doing the Derp again.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 07:24:05 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 07:10:10 PM

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on August 05, 2021, 07:06:28 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 07:00:18 PM
Damn near everyone is "a little self-serving" with their public online presence. If they're not, they're doing it wrong.

I mean once again true, the end goal is to sell a product

See almost any video by Pundit for an example. Even when he's reviewing someone else's product,  he's spending at least as much effort trying to sell his own.

Yeah, totally, promoting your products on your YT channel at the end of a review is EXACTLY the same as gamming the system to attain gold best seller...

HappyDerp doing the Derp again.

The conversation--specifically the part you quoted--had moved past that point. Do try to keep up.

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 07:37:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 07:24:05 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 07:10:10 PM

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on August 05, 2021, 07:06:28 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 07:00:18 PM
Damn near everyone is "a little self-serving" with their public online presence. If they're not, they're doing it wrong.

I mean once again true, the end goal is to sell a product

See almost any video by Pundit for an example. Even when he's reviewing someone else's product,  he's spending at least as much effort trying to sell his own.

Yeah, totally, promoting your products on your YT channel at the end of a review is EXACTLY the same as gamming the system to attain gold best seller...

HappyDerp doing the Derp again.

The conversation--specifically the part you quoted--had moved past that point. Do try to keep up.

He doesn't need to try to keep up. All you need is the attention span of a fruit fly to recall what you said a couple posts prior. And I disagree with the notion that everybody games the system. Your follow-up example of shilling products during a video equating free copies to boost to gold status is not the same thing.

There are thousands of products and creators. It is lunacy to expect everybody to give away copies to manipulate their sales ranking.

It is lame as fuck.

Look, Fox didn't do shit; he's talking out of his ass. The manager for The Trove has said they're simply reorganizing it.

<Retracted due to enlightenment.>

So, does piracy hurt or help sales? Everyone's got an opinion on that one. Grim Jim on YT seems to think it helps. I don't know... I don't keep track of anyone's sales. I do believe that if you create something and put it up for sale, in whatever form... dead tree, PDF... and you don't want it pirated, then you have every right to say something when someone does it... and the non-publishing armchair yuk-yuks can just run their mouths all they want because they don't matter.

Paying customers matter.

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 05, 2021, 04:47:37 PM

That looked really cool... until I scrolled down and saw the tag line.

Quote from: Semaj Khan on August 05, 2021, 08:45:16 PM
Look, Fox didn't do shit; he's talking out of his ass. The manager for The Trove has said they're simply reorganizing it.

Now, for those of you playing at home saying that Fox is a hypocrite for complaining about piracy all the while he ripped off WHFRP... please use that same argument for Matt Finch, Stuart Marshall and the rest of us who engineered OSRIC. For extra points, also talk shit about LL, OSE, and whatever other OSR games are floating around because they freely "rip off" old TSR material.

Because they could.

Because it's legal.

Because there was a demand.

So, does piracy hurt or help sales? Everyone's got an opinion on that one. Grim Jim on YT seems to think it helps. I don't know... I don't keep track of anyone's sales. I do believe that if you create something and put it up for sale, in whatever form... dead tree, PDF... and you don't want it pirated, then you have every right to say something when someone does it... and the non-publishing armchair yuk-yuks can just run their mouths all they want because they don't matter.

Paying customers matter.

Agreed, that's why I try to buy physical/PDFs whenever I can. Hell, the only reason I've pirated something is just to give a look through to see if I like it because 9/10 times the DriveThru preview is just the Table of Contents (which idk if that's on the publisher or DriveThru). Hence why I own a few copies of DCC, OSRIC in physical, OSE, etc.

The big issue with Fox, at least to me, is that he has an "only I can do this but it's sleazy if someone else does" type of attitude that just rubs me the wrong way. Especially considering that Zweihander is a retroclone to a degree (once again, not super familiar with WFRP).

Quote from: Pat on August 05, 2021, 09:01:24 PM

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 05, 2021, 04:47:37 PM

That looked really cool... until I scrolled down and saw the tag line.

Yeah, I honestly would've used the art and not thought anything of it if it didn't include that bottom bit. Feels like it's starting to become a big ask to just not put politics in RPG books 

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on August 05, 2021, 09:11:03 PM
Agreed, that's why I try to buy physical/PDFs whenever I can. Hell, the only reason I've pirated something is just to give a look through to see if I like it because 9/10 times the DriveThru preview is just the Table of Contents (which idk if that's on the publisher or DriveThru). Hence why I own a few copies of DCC, OSRIC in physical, OSE, etc.

Oh sure. I've done the same thing. Back a couple of years ago, for example, I thought about getting into WH40K. I got pdfs... from the Trove... looked the rules over, and made an informed decision.  Was that illegal? Yes. Did it help GWs sales? Sure did.

QuoteThe big issue with Fox, at least to me, is that he has an "only I can do this but it's sleazy if someone else does" type of attitude that just rubs me the wrong way. Especially considering that Zweihander is a retroclone to a degree (once again, not super familiar with WFRP).

<Retracted due to enlightenment.>

Quote from: Semaj Khan on August 05, 2021, 09:27:54 PM

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on August 05, 2021, 09:11:03 PM
Agreed, that's why I try to buy physical/PDFs whenever I can. Hell, the only reason I've pirated something is just to give a look through to see if I like it because 9/10 times the DriveThru preview is just the Table of Contents (which idk if that's on the publisher or DriveThru). Hence why I own a few copies of DCC, OSRIC in physical, OSE, etc.

Oh sure. I've done the same thing. Back a couple of years ago, for example, I thought about getting into WH40K. I got pdfs... from the Trove... looked the rules over, and made an informed decision.  Was that illegal? Yes. Did it help GWs sales? Sure did.

QuoteThe big issue with Fox, at least to me, is that he has an "only I can do this but it's sleazy if someone else does" type of attitude that just rubs me the wrong way. Especially considering that Zweihander is a retroclone to a degree (once again, not super familiar with WFRP).

Dude, for real? What did I say back up the thread? Why are you equating piracy with retro-cloning?  The first is illegal, the second is perfectly legal. Now, I know people who raised holy hell when OSRIC came out... like that ignorant asshole who had Hackmaster... but it was kicked off by an attorney who did his research and knew it was legal.  That is not the same thing as piracy, and to paint Fox with both brushes is either personal or a lack of understanding. 

Just because ZH didn't spring out of his ass fully formed like some meth head Aphrodite doesn't mean he ripped anyone off, and if you think it's so... then like I said above, you have a lot of others to condemn as well. So spread the love.

Frankly, by resurrecting WHFRP 1E in a new form, I think he did the world a favor because 4E sucks.

How do I know that?

Because I have the goddamned pdf.

Uhhh, I think you have missed his point.  No one I've seen is comparing retro-cloning with piracy.  Fox himself has said that other retro-clones (and adaptations of his material) are intellectual theft.  That's the hypocrisy everyone is referring to.  He's called the OSR theft, when he did the same thing.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 09:34:09 PM

Quote from: Semaj Khan on August 05, 2021, 09:27:54 PM

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on August 05, 2021, 09:11:03 PM
Agreed, that's why I try to buy physical/PDFs whenever I can. Hell, the only reason I've pirated something is just to give a look through to see if I like it because 9/10 times the DriveThru preview is just the Table of Contents (which idk if that's on the publisher or DriveThru). Hence why I own a few copies of DCC, OSRIC in physical, OSE, etc.

Oh sure. I've done the same thing. Back a couple of years ago, for example, I thought about getting into WH40K. I got pdfs... from the Trove... looked the rules over, and made an informed decision.  Was that illegal? Yes. Did it help GWs sales? Sure did.

QuoteThe big issue with Fox, at least to me, is that he has an "only I can do this but it's sleazy if someone else does" type of attitude that just rubs me the wrong way. Especially considering that Zweihander is a retroclone to a degree (once again, not super familiar with WFRP).

Dude, for real? What did I say back up the thread? Why are you equating piracy with retro-cloning?  The first is illegal, the second is perfectly legal. Now, I know people who raised holy hell when OSRIC came out... like that ignorant asshole who had Hackmaster... but it was kicked off by an attorney who did his research and knew it was legal.  That is not the same thing as piracy, and to paint Fox with both brushes is either personal or a lack of understanding. 

Just because ZH didn't spring out of his ass fully formed like some meth head Aphrodite doesn't mean he ripped anyone off, and if you think it's so... then like I said above, you have a lot of others to condemn as well. So spread the love.

Frankly, by resurrecting WHFRP 1E in a new form, I think he did the world a favor because 4E sucks.

How do I know that?

Because I have the goddamned pdf.

Uhhh, I think you have missed his point.  No one I've seen is comparing retro-cloning with piracy.  Fox himself has said that other retro-clones (and adaptations of his material) are intellectual theft.  That's the hypocrisy everyone is referring to.  He's called the OSR theft, when he did the same thing.

That was what I was trying to say, thank you. Seems I didn't quite get the wording right. I wasn't equating the OSR or retroclones to piracy, I was saying it was hypocritical that he does when he quite literally made a retroclone

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 09:34:09 PM

Quote from: Semaj Khan on August 05, 2021, 09:27:54 PM

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on August 05, 2021, 09:11:03 PM
Agreed, that's why I try to buy physical/PDFs whenever I can. Hell, the only reason I've pirated something is just to give a look through to see if I like it because 9/10 times the DriveThru preview is just the Table of Contents (which idk if that's on the publisher or DriveThru). Hence why I own a few copies of DCC, OSRIC in physical, OSE, etc.

Oh sure. I've done the same thing. Back a couple of years ago, for example, I thought about getting into WH40K. I got pdfs... from the Trove... looked the rules over, and made an informed decision.  Was that illegal? Yes. Did it help GWs sales? Sure did.

QuoteThe big issue with Fox, at least to me, is that he has an "only I can do this but it's sleazy if someone else does" type of attitude that just rubs me the wrong way. Especially considering that Zweihander is a retroclone to a degree (once again, not super familiar with WFRP).

Dude, for real? What did I say back up the thread? Why are you equating piracy with retro-cloning?  The first is illegal, the second is perfectly legal. Now, I know people who raised holy hell when OSRIC came out... like that ignorant asshole who had Hackmaster... but it was kicked off by an attorney who did his research and knew it was legal.  That is not the same thing as piracy, and to paint Fox with both brushes is either personal or a lack of understanding. 

Just because ZH didn't spring out of his ass fully formed like some meth head Aphrodite doesn't mean he ripped anyone off, and if you think it's so... then like I said above, you have a lot of others to condemn as well. So spread the love.

Frankly, by resurrecting WHFRP 1E in a new form, I think he did the world a favor because 4E sucks.

How do I know that?

Because I have the goddamned pdf.

Uhhh, I think you have missed his point.  No one I've seen is comparing retro-cloning with piracy.  Fox himself has said that other retro-clones (and adaptations of his material) are intellectual theft.  That's the hypocrisy everyone is referring to.  He's called the OSR theft, when he did the same thing.

AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

See, I did not know that. That is indeed a horse of a different color.

I retract my previous statements then. Thanks for enlightening me.

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on August 05, 2021, 09:48:10 PM

That was what I was trying to say, thank you. Seems I didn't quite get the wording right. I wasn't equating the OSR or retroclones to piracy, I was saying it was hypocritical that he does when he quite literally made a retroclone

Agreed. Previous statements retracted.