Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 06, 2021, 11:26:27 AM
Uhhhhh.........okay. The good old brigaders are here. Hurrah.

To bring this back to the topic, which is one of pundits rules. I noticed on big purp that the Avatar airbender kickstarter has thrown a wrench in the works. Starting on page 60 of the massive thread. The final stretch goal is an actual play. One of the people reportedly involved is Satine Phoenix, who as you know, has been associated with ZakS. And it's now a problem for some of the big purp comrades.

So, yeah, what is it about content and creators again?

JFC that's bound to be a cesspool already.

It's also funny the people getting upset about this are still playing the same dishonest word games and throwing every -ism in the book at it. It only reinforces the idea that this is doing a lot of good. If they can seriously sit here and defend behavior like doxxing and harassment campaigns or getting books and people banned from just about everywhere whilst denouncing those who don't stand for it. These can't be real people

Quote from: mathew6987 on September 06, 2021, 11:12:26 AM
@ocule I cant believe you would post something like this showing the world that you are a such a bad person on the inside.

Thanks for posting this I really needed a good belly laugh...

I dunno.  I have a lot of friends, many of them ardent RPG buyers.  The list is valuable to us and it will cost the red and yellow team a not-insignificant amount of sales.  So laugh away in your total ignorance of why we find your attitudes offensive enough to alter our buying decisions.  As usual, you have demonstrated you fail to understand what we mean when we say 'cancel culture' (it is cancelling on the basis of false information or the interpretation of a spoken truth as a falsehood - there I helped you).  As usual, you have indicated you fail to understand the inevitable and destructive consequences of your philosophy for the very people you believe you are protecting. 

Quote from: mathew6987 on September 06, 2021, 11:12:26 AM
@ocule I cant believe you would post something like this showing the world that you are a such a bad person on the inside. You literally must be lacking in all morals to think that being kind to people is a bad thing. You are the reason the world is a worse place than it needs to be. You only bring anger, and sadness to this world. Remember all anger comes from fear so you need to look inside and find out what you are really afraid of.

If you honestly think being "woke" is about being kind to people, you're naive or just plain deluded. It's about gatekeeping, bigotry and creating easy enemies. It's modern-day nerd bullying. Go take a look at the Twitter responses to this list and tell me who's bringing anger.

QuoteThis list is a cry for help from a scared little guy who thinks that big bad different man/woman is gonna come and take all his privileges that he didn't earn himself. He knows without those he will be even more left out than he is now b/c he cant do life unless everyone thinks he is special. I mean seriously when did you become so weak and small that this is what matters to you?

Lots of assumptions and ad hominem about the OP here. You sound like a nice person.

QuoteYour list is an act of hate. You are not fighting against anything except the inclusion of others into this great hobby. And you are right Companies hate you just like the rest of us do. we all want you and your hateful kind to just go away forever and never speak again you are the worst of us and make the whole hobby look bad with your ignorance and just plain stupidity.

This hobby has always been inclusive. Most companies on the Red list are the ones being exclusive. The vast majority of people you're attacking are normal, accepting and inclusive, but because they don't toe the line, they push back against censorship, they don't like politics in their escapism, or just simply because of their race and gender, they've become easy targets for people like you to demonize and try to push out of the hobby entirely. As I mentioned earlier: modern-day bullying.

QuoteBE A GOOD PERSON!!

Practice what you preach.

Quote from: Ocule on September 06, 2021, 11:31:20 AM
JFC that's bound to be a cesspool already.

It's also funny the people getting upset about this are still playing the same dishonest word games and throwing every -ism in the book at it. It only reinforces the idea that this is doing a lot of good. If they can seriously sit here and defend behavior like doxxing and harassment campaigns or getting books and people banned from just about everywhere whilst denouncing those who don't stand for it. These can't be real people

Bingo. My thoughts exactly.

Quote from: Marcelus14 on September 06, 2021, 10:17:20 AM
Agreed, if the game is good the game is good.

Except a lot of folks don't believe that. You might be but a seeming majority aren't. When a creator's politics or personal beliefs come up that "taints" their content. Look at Orson Scott Card, the poster child for 'cancelling'. His personal beliefs on same sex marriage 'caused' (free to speak, not free from consequences) his 'cancellation'. Or the most recent comments by Sandy Peterson, now people won't buy from Chaosium.

Your argument is weak.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 06, 2021, 12:33:37 PM

Quote from: Marcelus14 on September 06, 2021, 10:17:20 AM
Agreed, if the game is good the game is good.

Except a lot of folks don't believe that. You might be but a seeming majority aren't. When a creator's politics or personal beliefs come up that "taints" their content. Look at Orson Scott Card, the poster child for 'cancelling'. His personal beliefs on same sex marriage 'caused' (free to speak, not free from consequences) his 'cancellation'. Or the most recent comments by Sandy Peterson, now people won't buy from Chaosium.

Your argument is weak.

My argument that I believe "if a game is good, then a game is good" is weak because Sandy Peterson and Orson Scott Card were cancelled. Ok. Trying to understand what that has to do with my belief.

Is my argument weak? Or is the argument you have built up in your head as mine weak?

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 06, 2021, 12:33:37 PMWhen a creator's politics or personal beliefs come up that "taints" their content. Look at Orson Scott Card, the poster child for 'cancelling'. His personal beliefs on same sex marriage 'caused' (free to speak, not free from consequences) his 'cancellation'.

Looking at the list here, the green list is publishers who produce works which are apolitical. The yellow list is for publishers who dabble in politics socially, but which produce works which are either unaffected, or affected in a very small amount. The red list is for people who can't help themselves and attack/insult/berate customers for their political beliefs or which produce works so seeped in a political mindset as to make the resulting work inseparable from it.

By these definitions, Orson Scott Card would be squarely in the yellow. His political beliefs don't affect his work (or didn't, last time I checked years ago) and as I remember it, he wasn't going out of his way to force others to agree with him. It was just his personal beliefs that he shared because someone asked (I believe it originally came out in an interview, but he wrote a blog about it afterwards). Please correct me if I'm wrong, it has been a very long time.

My point is, the woke crowd is more than happy to cancel those in the yellow, while the - whatever is the opposite of woke is... normal? - crowd consider the yellow to be a warning that they could cross the line and become untenable in the future.

It seems like the normal crowd is far more tolerant of different opinions - though there are certainly limits to what is tolerable. The woke crowd can not tolerate any deviation from the stated tenets of wokeness, and will attack viciously anybody who even slightly disagrees with them. They literally see disagreement, however minor, as morally evil. And then for them to come here and accuse the normal crowd of being intolerant...

I am enjoying the list you posted.  The list is good thing for tabletop gamers to have.  I also like see signing up to this site just to attack the list.

I should have known that Pazio was woke when they I found out that they had a transgendered dwarf.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 06, 2021, 12:33:37 PM

Quote from: Marcelus14 on September 06, 2021, 10:17:20 AM
Agreed, if the game is good the game is good.

Except a lot of folks don't believe that. You might be but a seeming majority aren't. When a creator's politics or personal beliefs come up that "taints" their content. Look at Orson Scott Card, the poster child for 'cancelling'. His personal beliefs on same sex marriage 'caused' (free to speak, not free from consequences) his 'cancellation'. Or the most recent comments by Sandy Peterson, now people won't buy from Chaosium.

Your argument is weak.

His argument is as strong as yours. You don't fight nonsensical partisanship by doubling down.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 06, 2021, 12:33:37 PM
Except a lot of folks don't believe that. You might be but a seeming majority aren't. When a creator's politics or personal beliefs come up that "taints" their content. Look at Orson Scott Card, the poster child for 'cancelling'. His personal beliefs on same sex marriage 'caused' (free to speak, not free from consequences) his 'cancellation'.

One thing about Orsen Scott Card. It was way more than just his opinions on homosexuality. I mean, he's actively campaigning and funding against gay marriage. If you look into it he's a total scum bag. I would vehemently oppose his views on homosexuality.

On the cancel culture thing... I hold myself to the same standards that I apply to others. So, I have no problem with people not buying my future products, etc. And I'll do the same to creators I dislike. I'm all about consumer choice at the end of the day. Assuming that it's based on fact. I'll usually do my own research - so I don't miss anything.

If the 'cancellation', on either side is done purely based on rumor or here-say, then that's total bullshit as far as I'm concerned.

As I've said previously, I personally don't give a frag who votes for who. It's all about the area of censorship or stuff they want you to shoehorn into 'your' game.

In the interest of fairness, I will have to addend my previous claim of no one being mad about the red list because apparently someone conflated the existence of a list with the existence of evil earlier in this thread (after I wrote my point).

Which is annoying. But I recognize that I can't speak for all so I wont.

What I will say instead is "not everyone, and I would like to believe a majority, of people are not seething with anger at the existence of a red list."

Quote from: Marcelus14 on September 06, 2021, 01:10:04 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 06, 2021, 12:33:37 PM

Quote from: Marcelus14 on September 06, 2021, 10:17:20 AM
Agreed, if the game is good the game is good.

Except a lot of folks don't believe that. You might be but a seeming majority aren't. When a creator's politics or personal beliefs come up that "taints" their content. Look at Orson Scott Card, the poster child for 'cancelling'. His personal beliefs on same sex marriage 'caused' (free to speak, not free from consequences) his 'cancellation'. Or the most recent comments by Sandy Peterson, now people won't buy from Chaosium.

Your argument is weak.

My argument that I believe "if a game is good, then a game is good" is weak because Sandy Peterson and Orson Scott Card were cancelled. Ok. Trying to understand what that has to do with my belief.

Is my argument weak? Or is the argument you have built up in your head as mine weak?

Fair enough. I see your point. My point, which I hope came across, is that the majority does not separate creator from content. Pundit's products have, as far as the products I have, no modern political statements in them. But because pundit is vocal people won't buy his games, despite them being good games, as you said yourself. So if pundits or vengers games are good people still won't buy them. Heck, Arrows of Indra has a trans person on the cover.

Contrast that with WotC, who are actively, and admittedly, changing games for modern political reasons.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 06, 2021, 01:52:08 PM
Pundit's products have, as far as the products I have, no modern political statements in them. But because pundit is vocal people won't buy his games, despite them being good games, as you said yourself. So if pundits or vengers games are good people still won't buy them.

Oh, I totally agree with you. The SJWs seem to speak from both sides of their mouths as needed, either to try and win argument or get the all-round virtue signalling black slaps.

So a 'fair shake of the stick' is not something I ever expect from them.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 06, 2021, 01:13:07 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 06, 2021, 12:33:37 PM

Quote from: Marcelus14 on September 06, 2021, 10:17:20 AM
Agreed, if the game is good the game is good.

Except a lot of folks don't believe that. You might be but a seeming majority aren't. When a creator's politics or personal beliefs come up that "taints" their content. Look at Orson Scott Card, the poster child for 'cancelling'. His personal beliefs on same sex marriage 'caused' (free to speak, not free from consequences) his 'cancellation'. Or the most recent comments by Sandy Peterson, now people won't buy from Chaosium.

Your argument is weak.

His argument is as strong as yours. You don't fight nonsensical partisanship by doubling down.

I agree....but it's what happens.