Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 11, 2025, 02:06:06 PM

Quote from: Gagarth on March 11, 2025, 01:16:51 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 11, 2025, 11:29:52 AMWhat does it say about religion?

"Christian socialism" is a non-denominational progressive movement that is extremely influential.

That's historical, at least, but I'm not surprised it's what they chose to call out. Any mention of the Oxford Movement?

Yeah but that fact it is the very first thing mentioned in the Religion section speaks volumes. Yes it goes into the different flavours of the Anglican church. All the other Protestant denominations get lumped together
 and of course their is the obligatory section about Catholic "persecution".

Quote from: Gagarth on March 11, 2025, 03:50:18 PMand of course their is the obligatory section about Catholic "persecution".

  The Church definitely wasn't 'respectable' in Victorian England, but the situation was better than in previous centuries, where there wasn't even a Catholic hierarchy in Britain. There were strong anti-Catholic currents in other parts of Europe, and the Papacy's temporal fortunes were at a low ebb, but it's still a stretch to call it "persecution."

  ...Or are they actually implying that the Catholic Church was doing the persecuting?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 11, 2025, 08:14:34 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on March 10, 2025, 10:37:42 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 10, 2025, 12:16:59 PMYou need to go fairly deep into DL lore to pick it up--

I ran a whole DL campaign without going that deep into the lore. 

  Thus highlighting the general irrelevance and uselessness of gully dwarves.

Yup, I ran a multi-year DL campaign and Gully Dwarves......were just not a thing. And I love Dragonlance lore. So take that for what it's worth.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 11, 2025, 06:09:09 PM...Or are they actually implying that the Catholic Church was doing the persecuting?

Knowing the woke left, this is my first guess.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 11, 2025, 08:14:34 AMThus highlighting the general irrelevance and uselessness of gully dwarves.

I just ignored them entirely. 

Oh look, another book I'll never buy.  "Hey Bill, we're writing a book about cosmic horrors that shatter the pathetic, sheltered sanity of a humanity that was never ready for the searing merciless light of the awful truth of the uncaring universe, where's the chapter about Victorian buttsex?"

Quote from: Gagarth on March 11, 2025, 08:46:49 AMCthulhu by Gaslight - Investigator's guide.  Chaosium's new political commissars  Russell A. Smith,  Violet Fenn and VJ Kopacki
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This has a strong "We have always been at war with Eurasia" vibe.

Quote from: Steeldom on March 12, 2025, 01:37:50 AMThis has a strong "We have always been at war with Eurasia" vibe.

   Fundamental premise of the Zeitgeist: Sexual desire/identity is innate, immutable, and unquestionable. Thus, the proportions of people who were "really" LGBTQQIAA2S+ are fixed constants throughout history, and cannot be at all affected by behavior, beliefs, or societal factors.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 12, 2025, 10:31:07 AM

Quote from: Steeldom on March 12, 2025, 01:37:50 AMThis has a strong "We have always been at war with Eurasia" vibe.

   Fundamental premise of the Zeitgeist: Sexual desire/identity is innate, immutable, and unquestionable. Thus, the proportions of people who were "really" LGBTQQIAA2S+ are fixed constants throughout history, and cannot be at all affected by behavior, beliefs, or societal factors.

Regarding Cthulhu by Gaslight - it's very well documented that there were plenty of LGBT people around in Victorian England. I just went to see a play by Oscar Wilde, say, who was a Victorian playwright convicted of homosexuality who died at 46 after being imprisoned.

LGBT advocates generally say that society can put people in the closet - so sexual behavior and identity are affected by society. However, they would say that proclivity is constant. i.e. In Victorian England, homosexuality was illegal - so fewer people were in open homosexual relationships, and many people didn't think of themselves as homosexual even though they felt attraction to others of the same sex. But attraction to other men/women was still there.

I don't have the full text, but describing and coming out against Victorian anti-homosexuality laws doesn't seem like a radical left position to me.

The point is that Victorian anti-homosexuality laws have NOTHING to do with a group of investigators struggling against elder gods that want to devour the world.  There's a reason that Lovecraft's protagonists were generally single reclusive men, apart from the author's grave social anxieties: Interpersonal drama between characters would only dilute a horror tale with pointless chaff.  The protagonists' love lives didn't matter.  The protagonists' opinions on the political clime of the day didn't matter.  Day to day human problems didn't matter because an octopus-faced great old one was coming to eat the city.

It's a testament to the narcissism of the authors, or what they perceive their audience to be, that they feel that the PCs' sex lives should be remotely close to center stage when the species is on the brink of a hellish extinction.

Quote from: Valatar on March 12, 2025, 09:47:42 PMThe point is that Victorian anti-homosexuality laws have NOTHING to do with a group of investigators struggling against elder gods that want to devour the world.  There's a reason that Lovecraft's protagonists were generally single reclusive men, apart from the author's grave social anxieties: Interpersonal drama between characters would only dilute a horror tale with pointless chaff.  The protagonists' love lives didn't matter.  The protagonists' opinions on the political clime of the day didn't matter.  Day to day human problems didn't matter because an octopus-faced great old one was coming to eat the city.

It's a testament to the narcissism of the authors, or what they perceive their audience to be, that they feel that the PCs' sex lives should be remotely close to center stage when the species is on the brink of a hellish extinction.

Those characters were not born knowing the role they would play in an Elder God's story. They presumably had their own backstories that involved love lives, political opinions, and day to day problems. Some players may want to explore the cultural context on what that might have looked like.

Quote from: Valatar on March 12, 2025, 09:47:42 PMThe point is that Victorian anti-homosexuality laws have NOTHING to do with a group of investigators struggling against elder gods that want to devour the world.  There's a reason that Lovecraft's protagonists were generally single reclusive men, apart from the author's grave social anxieties: Interpersonal drama between characters would only dilute a horror tale with pointless chaff.  The protagonists' love lives didn't matter.  The protagonists' opinions on the political clime of the day didn't matter.  Day to day human problems didn't matter because an octopus-faced great old one was coming to eat the city.

It's a testament to the narcissism of the authors, or what they perceive their audience to be, that they feel that the PCs' sex lives should be remotely close to center stage when the species is on the brink of a hellish extinction.

_Call of Cthulhu_ has always put a lot of detail into historical authenticity. The 1981 original Call of Cthulhu book has three pages of biographies of notable people from the 1920s from Emilio Aguinaldo to Emiliano Zapata, along with details on travel times, banking, bribery, the law, and so forth.

Later sourcebooks have greater detail on specific areas and periods. The 1988 original Cthulhu by Gaslight has all sort of locations, from museums to various prominent stores of Victorian London. Actually, looking at my copy, I'm intrigued to see that they include a quarter-page biography of Oscar Wilde in their list of biographies. It's also got a full page on "Royalty and Titles", and another each on "Club Life in London", "Hotels and Lodging", and "Markets and Bazaars".

You can play your _Call of Cthulhu_ ignoring the details of Victorian life, and just be big heroes shooting at monsters, but that's not how the mainstream of CoC modules have always been written.

In my 1920s and Victorian games, I've always played including historical discrimination as one of those details.

After months of facing down cultists and eldritch abominations, Dr. Francis Martindale (Professor of Antiquities Miskatonic University), Great War vet and private eye Jackob "Bootstrap" Johnson, crack photographer/reporter Helen McBride, and playboy/philanthropist Terrance Thorndyke finally are on the brink of piercing the inner sanctum of the cult of Cthulhu of Innsmouth...all speaking in hushed tones...

  Jackob "Bootstrap" Johnson: "Welp...this is it. get ready folks. Remember, just like we planned: bash open the door, me and the doc on the left, Terry and Helen on the right. Blast 'em all until they're not movin'."

Dr. Francis Martindale: "Very well. If we do have a survivor, we must interrogate him. I suspect they may have other followers beyond Innsmouth. The Deep Ones lair is somewhere off the coast...but where?"

Helen McBride: "Whatever doc. Don't expect me to go easy on 'em. Remember what happened yesterday down by the warehouses. ugh! It still gives me the heebee geebees.(shudders)

Jackob "Bootstrap" Johnson: "Terry, you've been unusually quiet. Usually you're jabbering away a mile a minute. Ya know, how nervous you get. What gives?"

Terrance Thorndyke: "Um. Yeah. Um...guys I have a confession to make..."

Dr. Francis Martindale: "What is it, son. Make it quick."

Helen McBride: "if it's about the hooch, don't worry. We all know you've been taking more of your fair share without us looking. No big deal..."

Terrance Thorndyke: "No, no, no. Not that...Oh.. you knew?"

Jackob "Bootstrap" Johnson: "Hey like the prof said, make it quick. What is it?"

Terrance Thorndyke: "Guys...I'm gay."

(all three in unison): "we know."

Terrance Thorndyke: "Wait. What? You KNEW?"

Jackob "Bootstrap" Johnson: "Sure we did. It was quite obvious..."

Dr. Francis Martindale: "Yes, quite so. So, anyway, if we have a prisoner..."

Terrance Thorndyke: "but, but HOW?"

Helen McBride: "Really? Are you serious? How many times I've tried to come onto you when we first met? You were oblivious to it. That's when I turned my attention to Jackob. Right sweetie? (blows Jackob a kiss)"

Jackob "Bootstrap" Johnson: "Right, baby. (wink) Besides, Terry, there were other give-aways."

Terrance Thorndyke: "Like?"

Jackob "Bootstrap" Johnson: "Like your excessive fondness of Broadway musicals."

Dr. Francis Martindale: "Oh, and how you have a particular flair for interior design. Quite so."

Helen McBride: "I did notice a particular lilt in your voice after a while, especially when we were talking and gossiping. I mean, a guy with a lilt voice and likes to gossip with gals? Yeah, kinda gay Terry."

Terrance Thorndyke: "Wow..."

Dr. Francis Martindale: "Oh yes. VERY gay...but not flaming. Right?"

Jackob "Bootstrap" Johnson: "Naw. It's not like you go prancing around in Helen's bloomers!"

Terrance Thorndyke: "And you guys are OK with it?"

Jackob "Bootstrap" Johnson: "Yeah. We're fine. We don't care. It just you. You never made it a thing. Never More than what we're dealing with.

Terrance Thorndyke: "Oh. OK then. Great. Thanks guys."

Jackob "Bootstrap" Johnson: "Sure, no prob. Can we get on with it? It's getting late."

Dr. Francis Martindale: "Quite right."

Terrance Thorndyke: "Hey Helen.."

Helen McBride:"Yeah?"

Terrance Thorndyke: "About those bloomers..."

END

Moral of the story: nobody gives a shit about you being gay. It does nothing for the plot/story.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2025, 02:40:50 AM

Quote from: Valatar on March 12, 2025, 09:47:42 PMThe point is that Victorian anti-homosexuality laws have NOTHING to do with a group of investigators struggling against elder gods that want to devour the world.  There's a reason that Lovecraft's protagonists were generally single reclusive men, apart from the author's grave social anxieties: Interpersonal drama between characters would only dilute a horror tale with pointless chaff.  The protagonists' love lives didn't matter.  The protagonists' opinions on the political clime of the day didn't matter.  Day to day human problems didn't matter because an octopus-faced great old one was coming to eat the city.

It's a testament to the narcissism of the authors, or what they perceive their audience to be, that they feel that the PCs' sex lives should be remotely close to center stage when the species is on the brink of a hellish extinction.

Those characters were not born knowing the role they would play in an Elder God's story. They presumably had their own backstories that involved love lives, political opionions, and day to day problems. Some players may want to explore the cultural context on what that might have looked like.

This is not acceptable behavior in most social settings and the gaming table isn't any different.  Using gaming time to explore your own sexuality, trauma dump, or as some form of ad hoc therapy is abusing the other table members.  Journal it, novelize it, or hire professional help if you really need it but do this kind of shit to other players.

Quote from: BadApple on March 13, 2025, 09:07:41 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2025, 02:40:50 AM

Quote from: Valatar on March 12, 2025, 09:47:42 PMThe point is that Victorian anti-homosexuality laws have NOTHING to do with a group of investigators struggling against elder gods that want to devour the world.  There's a reason that Lovecraft's protagonists were generally single reclusive men, apart from the author's grave social anxieties: Interpersonal drama between characters would only dilute a horror tale with pointless chaff.  The protagonists' love lives didn't matter.  The protagonists' opinions on the political clime of the day didn't matter.  Day to day human problems didn't matter because an octopus-faced great old one was coming to eat the city.

It's a testament to the narcissism of the authors, or what they perceive their audience to be, that they feel that the PCs' sex lives should be remotely close to center stage when the species is on the brink of a hellish extinction.

Those characters were not born knowing the role they would play in an Elder God's story. They presumably had their own backstories that involved love lives, political opionions, and day to day problems. Some players may want to explore the cultural context on what that might have looked like.

This is not acceptable behavior in most social settings and the gaming table isn't any different.  Using gaming time to explore your own sexuality, trauma dump, or as some form of ad hoc therapy is abusing the other table members.  Journal it, novelize it, or hire professional help if you really need it but do this kind of shit to other players.

Exactly. Which is why I lampooned the shit out of it.