Quote from: Daddy Warpig on December 28, 2022, 09:22:19 PM
...
Any discussion of it anywhere?

Absolutely no where.

I'll take some pics of the relevant rules  stuff and do a post about it this weekend.

It is a different way of doing things.

Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2022, 11:02:51 AM
There are definitely people attacking Troll Lord for announcing an apolitical stance.  And yes, "Nazi" has already appeared, lol. 

In my opinion; TLG shouldn't have said anything, or released any kind of statement.

They should have just contacted Vey behind the scenes, told him to PUBLICLY grovel/Apologize, and state in no uncertain terms that anything he said in no way reflects the views of TLG. Then they needed him to publicly say that he will STFU about political stuff as long as he is a TLG staff writer.

Releasing a 'statement' of any kind by the company itself is just chum bait for the Sparkletrolls to swarm to and try to get TLG to kowtow to their sick ideological colonialism.

If they really wanted to maintain a 'no politics' position it was best to give them a blank wall.

Now they are in it. And they will be assigned a side whether they want to be or not.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 30, 2022, 01:59:42 PM
In my opinion; TLG shouldn't have said anything, or released any kind of statement.

They should have just contacted Vey behind the scenes, told him to PUBLICLY grovel/Apologize, and state in no uncertain terms that anything he said in no way reflects the views of TLG. Then they needed him to publicly say that he will STFU about political stuff as long as he is a TLG staff writer.

Releasing a 'statement' of any kind by the company itself is just chum bait for the Sparkletrolls to swarm to and try to get TLG to kowtow to their sick ideological colonialism.

If they really wanted to maintain a 'no politics' position it was best to give them a blank wall.

Now they are in it. And they will be assigned a side whether they want to be or not.

I'm fair certain they have contacted him directly, at the very least about spouting off in public and drawing fire from the Sparkletits Twitter Brigade. He's stated very publicly that he's taking a break from his Twitter, culling his Fb friends list and changing his settings to friends only.

Personally, I cannot see what the Sparkletits are railing on him for on Twitter. I can't really see anything political on his feed, and just see a lot of adverts for Amazing Adventures and the fuckwits are alight over something. Maybe it's already been deleted?

I like TLG and Vey's stuff, so I'm not about complaining or raking him/them over coals. I follow both on Fb and Twitter (and get notifications from them bc I want to know what they are doing next).

Both should definitely be Green, imo.

I'm just about ready to delete my Twitter account too, though I don't care one way or the other about Elon taking the reigns - I just don't like most of the population of pompous asses who take themselves way too seriously as "socially aware" gamers there. Sparkletits, indeed.

And I just can't with WotC any longer, at all. Not that that attitude is uncommon or anything around this corner of the internet or anything. I've tried even through Spelljammer. But I just can't anymore.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 30, 2022, 01:59:42 PM

Quote from: Daddy Warpig on December 28, 2022, 09:22:19 PM
...
Any discussion of it anywhere?

Absolutely no where.

I'll take some pics of the relevant rules  stuff and do a post about it this weekend.

It is a different way of doing things.

Quote from: Two Crows on December 30, 2022, 11:02:51 AM
There are definitely people attacking Troll Lord for announcing an apolitical stance.  And yes, "Nazi" has already appeared, lol. 

In my opinion; TLG shouldn't have said anything, or released any kind of statement.

They should have just contacted Vey behind the scenes, told him to PUBLICLY grovel/Apologize, and state in no uncertain terms that anything he said in no way reflects the views of TLG. Then they needed him to publicly say that he will STFU about political stuff as long as he is a TLG staff writer.

Releasing a 'statement' of any kind by the company itself is just chum bait for the Sparkletrolls to swarm to and try to get TLG to kowtow to their sick ideological colonialism.

If they really wanted to maintain a 'no politics' position it was best to give them a blank wall.

Now they are in it. And they will be assigned a side whether they want to be or not.

Wrong.  If they told him to grovel, it would just encourage more pile-on.  And they are "in it" whether they want to be or not.  Because the moment he bent the knee, the crazies would be demanding TLG to release a statement, and put them "in it" no matter the response.  You don't get to choose to be "in it"; once they decide to target you, you are "in it" until you either capitulate or beat them back.

Your advice is what has gotten us in this situation to begin with.  They want you to cower and capitulate.  It only encourages them to continue.

Well I guess it's time to change Goblinoid Games to Red or Yellow. GG, GG.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/it-s-absolutely-insane-how-suppressive-most-ttrpg-communities-have-become/msg1238106/#msg1238106

QuoteGoblinoid Games' Statement on Politics
I know what you're thinking, "Man, not another ham-fisted statement about politics by a game publisher." Please bear with me.
This is a big discussion with much more nuance than I can capture here. I also don't claim to fully grasp all of the nuance, we can all keep learning. But what I want to say is that there are too many issues dismissed as "politics" to shut down discussion and opinions as if there are two legitimate sides to all of these issues.
What I mean by that is, for example, something like whether we should tax gas at the pump or wrap it into vehicle registration. So in that sense, yes, Goblinoid Games (me) isn't interested in discussing that kind of politics at the game table (though let's face it, game table banter often does stray afield of the task at hand!).
But often what people write off as "merely" politics are actually human rights issues. In that regard, I think those considerations should be taken into account where appropriate.
What that looks like in practice is working to not perpetuate or reinforce lies, bigotry, homophobia etc. To not contribute to the public and systemic forces and beliefs that strive to grind classes of people below an authoritarian boot.
So when I say trans men are men and trans women are women, or black lives matter, I'm not making a political statement. I'm acknowledging that every person should have the freedom to be who they feel they truly are. Or to not be systematically degraded so that society views some people as lesser or inferior.
Because when we refuse to openly discuss those issues we turn a blind eye to the reinforcing behavior that erodes the dignity from people and makes them feel unsafe and rejected by society. Brushing these topics aside because you don't want to tackle them or be self reflective is the same as saying you're content to perpetuate ideas that seek to hurt people. Kill people even. To keep people afraid and uncertain of their places in the world.
Therefore I encourage discussion when these issues come to the foreground, and I hope if I make any missteps people will correct me and I can learn something. Above all I want everyone to know that you are safe here and that I have your back in every way that's in my power. You are valued no matter who you are. You are valued because you are who you are. Human diversity is a beautiful thing when we can embrace it. We should enjoy that richness and enjoy each other.
Thanks for your time.
Dan

Quote from: mudbanks on January 02, 2023, 07:57:40 PM
Well I guess it's time to change Goblinoid Games to Red or Yellow. GG, GG.

I would say so.

It is a little amusing to see the hypocrisy in his statement.

OSE, which is still yellow for me, is a much better product.

Quote from: mudbanks on January 02, 2023, 07:57:40 PM
Well I guess it's time to change Goblinoid Games to Red or Yellow. GG,

Would not bother adding them as they are not hating or discriminating against their player base at this time. He is virtue signaling nothing more.

  Dan is openly stating what he is willing to discuss and  his personal stance.  If he starts saying certain groups shouldnt buy his books or  other sjwery crap then we got some flags to go with. Beyond the above statement has he , or his company, espoused any vitriol toward gamers and the people who buy them?

Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 03, 2023, 07:17:57 AM
Would not bother adding them as they are not hating or discriminating against their player base at this time. He is virtue signaling nothing more.

  Dan is openly stating what he is willing to discuss and  his personal stance.  If he starts saying certain groups shouldnt buy his books or  other sjwery crap then we got some flags to go with. Beyond the above statement has he , or his company, espoused any vitriol toward gamers and the people who buy them?

Yellow: Entities in this section have engaged in some questionable behavior, taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products. Entities here have not caused any harm or engaged in anti-consumer behavior.

Definitely qualifies for that. I think by stating a political stance then claiming it's not political because it's morally true and any disagreement is the pinnacle of immoral behavior is the definition of woke. That's not allowing for any sort of discussion, that is clearly stating that you won't welcome any disagreement because it's a matter of truth, even if it clearly violates fucking simple biology or demonstrable fact.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 03, 2023, 07:17:57 AM

Quote from: mudbanks on January 02, 2023, 07:57:40 PM
Well I guess it's time to change Goblinoid Games to Red or Yellow. GG,

Would not bother adding them as they are not hating or discriminating against their player base at this time. He is virtue signaling nothing more.

  Dan is openly stating what he is willing to discuss and  his personal stance.  If he starts saying certain groups shouldnt buy his books or  other sjwery crap then we got some flags to go with. Beyond the above statement has he , or his company, espoused any vitriol toward gamers and the people who buy them?

QuoteBrushing these topics aside because you don't want to tackle them or be self reflective is the same as saying you're content to perpetuate ideas that seek to hurt people. Kill people even. To keep people afraid and uncertain of their places in the world.

The above quote vilifies those who disagree with him. It's not exactly "vitriol" but it sure sounds exclusionary.

This is virtue signaling as we have seen hundreds of times before.  He's open to discussion as he stated in his post, he's not stating that he will shut down any alternative opinions.  Since he's a one man show that means his company is also Virtue Signaling or we taking this as his personal opinion? he did throw his companies name in the mix.

Ahh this is the Labyrith Lord company that's gone through a shitfest of troubles as of late. 

I'm of two minds on throwing people/companies on the list for actions of one employee ala TLG latest kerfluffle.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig on December 28, 2022, 09:22:19 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on December 15, 2022, 10:00:56 PM
Helveczia is the business. It has the best alignment system I've seen for any game.

Any discussion of it anywhere?

Here's an interview with Gabor Lux, the author: https://youtu.be/oWCeEOSP0vY

Quote from: Validin on December 28, 2022, 05:57:54 PM
I might not know the full story, but from what I know surface-level shouldn't Pinnacle be set to Yellow? They've not insulted their fans, but rewriting their entire setting's history to appease politically correct wokesters as well as supposedly trying to not have "too many" white characters in their book should be, I think, enough to say they've been questionable at best.

For those who may not know, brief rundown is that Deadlands originally did some mundane alt-history with its setting unrelated to the supernatural or horror themes. The biggest change was that Britain intervened on behalf of the Confederacy in the American Civil War under the condition they'd begin working to abolish slavery and this brought the war to a stalemate. Washington D.C. was blockaded and then occupied by British troops, which led the Union and the Confederacy to negotiate a truce. This is based on the popular real-world alt-history question of how the war would've gone had Britain and/or France joined the war, and ongoing tensions between North and South formed a major part of the setting's drama, as well as having the chance for mixed parties of Northern or Southern-supporting characters, but with the overall plot putting an emphasis on uniting to combat the supernatural threats in the West.

This was of course way too offensive for some people, for some reason, and the entire plot was scrapped and anyone holding pro-Confederacy views made into evil villains. A big change to the setting and tone got removed exclusively for woke political reasons.

For Schwalb Entertainment, I think Green is alright, but Schwalb did donate to a BLM-associated group and did the usual "#BLM" spiel on Twitter about it. He also renamed Shadow of the Mad Wizard to Weird Wizard after someone told him it was "ableist" otherwise. These seem to be the only two times he's blended politics with his game, but I think they're worth a mention.

I'd also suggest adding Eden Studios (All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Conspiracy X, Buffy RPG, Unisystem) to the Green section. They're not active anymore, but the owner still runs a game shop in NYC and seems like a cool dude. The games are products of the early 2000s and predate any woke nonsense, but they also keep largely apolitical to early 2000s issues too, as in no tirades about elections, Bush, Gore, Iraq, and so on. Eden's games are still on sale and I think they're worth supporting.

Games Workshop should be listed under Yellow or even Red, as my last opinion in the post. They've taken a strong "anti-fascist" in the modern sense stance in the past few years, supported BLM, and so on. Warhammer itself was always an actively left-leaning game that incorporated real-world politics in its content to varying degrees, though it's gotten more aggressive in the last decade. Lots of pronouns in bios, xy/xyr pronouns in some of the books, and so on.

The Confederates WERE villains. Also, their original setting was idiotic whitewashing of historical facts, to the point that the Civil War didn't end, but you could be a black Confederate Army OFFICER, because in their alternate history the Confederacy just decided to not be racist anymore.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 29, 2022, 06:20:50 AM

Quote from: Validin on December 28, 2022, 05:57:54 PM
I might not know the full story, but from what I know surface-level shouldn't Pinnacle be set to Yellow? They've not insulted their fans, but rewriting their entire setting's history to appease politically correct wokesters as well as supposedly trying to not have "too many" white characters in their book should be, I think, enough to say they've been questionable at best.

Seconded.

They GUTTED their setting for the sake of woke points, to the point where I won't play the new version.

They've also gone down the modern D&D route of changing female combatants from an (already anachronistic) accepted minority, in to female Marshalls, soldiers and gunslingers slapped on every cover and piece of art, and massively upped their frequency as NPCs.

I know it's an alternate history book, but it's basically our world until a little over a decade before the game is set. Are we really supposed to think that half the military officers, law enforcement, and bounty hunters are suddenly women?

The verisimilitude is destroyed, and for no reason apart from back pats.

You know if "Female Marshalls" in the new version of deadlands is versimilitude-breaking to you, but "BLACK CONFEDERATE ARMY OFFICERS" in the old one was not,  you may have a problem.

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 03, 2023, 11:29:53 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 29, 2022, 06:20:50 AM

Quote from: Validin on December 28, 2022, 05:57:54 PM
I might not know the full story, but from what I know surface-level shouldn't Pinnacle be set to Yellow? They've not insulted their fans, but rewriting their entire setting's history to appease politically correct wokesters as well as supposedly trying to not have "too many" white characters in their book should be, I think, enough to say they've been questionable at best.

Seconded.

They GUTTED their setting for the sake of woke points, to the point where I won't play the new version.

They've also gone down the modern D&D route of changing female combatants from an (already anachronistic) accepted minority, in to female Marshalls, soldiers and gunslingers slapped on every cover and piece of art, and massively upped their frequency as NPCs.

I know it's an alternate history book, but it's basically our world until a little over a decade before the game is set. Are we really supposed to think that half the military officers, law enforcement, and bounty hunters are suddenly women?

The verisimilitude is destroyed, and for no reason apart from back pats.

You know if "Female Marshalls" in the new version of deadlands is versimilitude-breaking to you, but "BLACK CONFEDERATE ARMY OFFICERS" in the old one was not,  you may have a problem.

I really like this site, and I don't want to be banned by the person that is, essentially, god here, but your post is a strawman, utterly unworthy of you. It strips my post down to a very basic (and biased) stance, then ridicules me as a person.

The old game had Black officers, and female law enforcement but they were still a minority and at least semi-unusual. Yes women and racial minorities had been accepted in to society at a very unrealistically fast pace in the original game, but that was a conceit necessary to allow those kinds of players to feel included in the setting while making them rare-enough that it didn't make the game seem like D&D 5E.

I also strongly disagree with your last post, and, respectfully, it seems emotionally charged and ignorant of the very real setting benefits of a never ending Cold War (which leads to the events in Wasted West.)

Hopefully I don't disappear in a puff of smoke.

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 03, 2023, 01:04:34 PM
Hopefully I don't disappear in a puff of smoke.

Pundit isn't going to ban you over disagreeing with his assessment of a fictional gaming world IF you're actually arguing over specifics. He just gets bent out of shape when people start making political statements that have nothing to do with gaming whatsoever. I think in this context, any sort of reasonable argument within the confines of the fictional Confederacy of Deadlands as it pertains to verisimilitude is well-within the bounds of this site. HOWEVER, as I only played the game a couple times and don't know all the lore, I'd prefer you made an actual thread so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle.

Quote from: Brad on January 03, 2023, 01:14:27 PM
HOWEVER, as I only played the game a couple times and don't know all the lore, I'd prefer you made an actual thread so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle.

I just may do that as time allows. I think the old lore greatly enriches the setting, and any arguments against retaining it are no different to any other SJW sanitization (for reasons I would expound upon.)