Quote from: oggsmash on April 15, 2022, 10:00:55 PM

Quote from: Effete on April 15, 2022, 09:53:24 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on April 15, 2022, 09:44:28 PM

Quote from: Effete on April 15, 2022, 09:20:36 PM
I'm in the same boat. Savage Worlds is one of my favorite systems to run because of how flexible and simple the rules are, but I held off on backing the Fantasy Comp when I saw the price points. $25 bucks for a digital book?! I'm not sure how they can justify that. I understand the higher price on a physical copy because of all the stupid shit happening in the economy, but a pdf should no more than $15. Less if PEG sticks with their weird 96 page limit.

As for the whole "ancestries" thing, that started with the Pathfinder partnership. I'm assuming they kept it the same for interchangeability purposes. :shrug: At least PEG isn't telling people on their forums to stop using "race", or preventing those in the licencee programs from writing what they want (as long as it adheres to a general "PG13" rating). Still, not sure if this makes the yellow.

  The old fantasy companion is 156 pages, and the Rifts world books are 192 pages, so I would expect it to be in that range (192), though I agree the digital price seems steep.

Oops. Yeah, I mistyped. 196 page limit. For "printing cost" purposes, PEG doesn't go any higher.

Thanks for catching that.

  I do not think you are wrong though, they have a whole bunch of books that were 96 pages.  Fantasy companion was quite a bit thicker than most of their other stuff during that time.  I had no idea they were limited to 196 pages these days, but the reasoning makes sense.

Aww crap, I think I WAS right the first time. LOL Both the Scifi companion and Supers companion (Deluxe - I didn't buy the new one) are 96 pages. I should probably double check this, but I think supplements are limited to 96 pages and full books to 192 (or 96×2). I just remember there was this whole discussion a while back about PEG having to cut content from one of their books to make the page count.

Quote from: Effete on April 15, 2022, 10:12:05 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on April 15, 2022, 10:00:55 PM

Quote from: Effete on April 15, 2022, 09:53:24 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on April 15, 2022, 09:44:28 PM

Quote from: Effete on April 15, 2022, 09:20:36 PM
I'm in the same boat. Savage Worlds is one of my favorite systems to run because of how flexible and simple the rules are, but I held off on backing the Fantasy Comp when I saw the price points. $25 bucks for a digital book?! I'm not sure how they can justify that. I understand the higher price on a physical copy because of all the stupid shit happening in the economy, but a pdf should no more than $15. Less if PEG sticks with their weird 96 page limit.

As for the whole "ancestries" thing, that started with the Pathfinder partnership. I'm assuming they kept it the same for interchangeability purposes. :shrug: At least PEG isn't telling people on their forums to stop using "race", or preventing those in the licencee programs from writing what they want (as long as it adheres to a general "PG13" rating). Still, not sure if this makes the yellow.

  The old fantasy companion is 156 pages, and the Rifts world books are 192 pages, so I would expect it to be in that range (192), though I agree the digital price seems steep.

Oops. Yeah, I mistyped. 196 page limit. For "printing cost" purposes, PEG doesn't go any higher.

Thanks for catching that.

  I do not think you are wrong though, they have a whole bunch of books that were 96 pages.  Fantasy companion was quite a bit thicker than most of their other stuff during that time.  I had no idea they were limited to 196 pages these days, but the reasoning makes sense.

Aww crap, I think I WAS right the first time. LOL Both the Scifi companion and Supers companion (Deluxe - I didn't buy the new one) are 96 pages. I should probably double check this, but I think supplements are limited to 96 pages and full books to 192 (or 96×2). I just remember there was this whole discussion a while back about PEG having to cut content from one of their books to make the page count.

Heh, well either way 25 bucks digital is steep.  I just would expect the FC to be on the thicker end since the old one was thicker than their other supplements at the time.  I only have one book from back then, the Hellfrost bestiary (which makes for a great fantasy monster manual for SW) and it was on the thinner side for full on books...so I have no idea as to their printing standards between books and perfect paperback supplements.   I still want the Savage Pathfinder books, but it seems it is taking a really long time to get the print versions of those out.

Quote from: oggsmash on April 15, 2022, 10:29:07 PM
Heh, well either way 25 bucks digital is steep.  I just would expect the FC to be on the thicker end since the old one was thicker than their other supplements at the time.  I only have one book from back then, the Hellfrost bestiary (which makes for a great fantasy monster manual for SW) and it was on the thinner side for full on books...so I have no idea as to their printing standards between books and perfect paperback supplements.   I still want the Savage Pathfinder books, but it seems it is taking a really long time to get the print versions of those out.

Hellfrost is by a third party (Triple Ace Games) so I don't know if they're bound to the same printing standards as "in-house" settings like Deadlands, Holler, Last Parsec, Rifts, Pathfinder, etc.

Sorry about those books, man. The PF kickstarter closed over a year ago, didn't it? I gotta say, though, having been a fan of SW for the last 10+ years, the company really seems to be slipping. It seems their go-to method for writing is to slap some shit together, throw it to backers, and use them as free proofreaders to find all the typos and inconsistencies. I feel real bad for all those poor suckers that backed SWADE at the highest level. They got a fancy special edition hardcover, full of misprinted words and rules that aren't used anymore.

It's why I'll never back a physical copy. Many times errata still comes out a year after the book's been printed. Just last month Sean Roberson announced new changes to some old Rifts stuff because he wrote things for Atlantis that apparently stepped on some toes of other mechanics. FFS!

Yeah, I know, this has nothing to do with a company going "woke," but it is about a company going to shit for completely different reasons. PEG is definitely in Yellow if the criteria is quality and consistency.

Quote from: Effete on April 16, 2022, 01:36:31 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on April 15, 2022, 10:29:07 PM
Heh, well either way 25 bucks digital is steep.  I just would expect the FC to be on the thicker end since the old one was thicker than their other supplements at the time.  I only have one book from back then, the Hellfrost bestiary (which makes for a great fantasy monster manual for SW) and it was on the thinner side for full on books...so I have no idea as to their printing standards between books and perfect paperback supplements.   I still want the Savage Pathfinder books, but it seems it is taking a really long time to get the print versions of those out.

Hellfrost is by a third party (Triple Ace Games) so I don't know if they're bound to the same printing standards as "in-house" settings like Deadlands, Holler, Last Parsec, Rifts, Pathfinder, etc.

Sorry about those books, man. The PF kickstarter closed over a year ago, didn't it? I gotta say, though, having been a fan of SW for the last 10+ years, the company really seems to be slipping. It seems their go-to method for writing is to slap some shit together, throw it to backers, and use them as free proofreaders to find all the typos and inconsistencies. I feel real bad for all those poor suckers that backed SWADE at the highest level. They got a fancy special edition hardcover, full of misprinted words and rules that aren't used anymore.

It's why I'll never back a physical copy. Many times errata still comes out a year after the book's been printed. Just last month Sean Roberson announced new changes to some old Rifts stuff because he wrote things for Atlantis that apparently stepped on some toes of other mechanics. FFS!

Yeah, I know, this has nothing to do with a company going "woke," but it is about a company going to shit for completely different reasons. PEG is definitely in Yellow if the criteria is quality and consistency.

  I did not back their kickstarter, I just figured they would have a print book at some point.  I do not know if the KS backers have a physical book yet (I do not back any KS any more), and I agree, Pinnacle should be well past the need for KS to get a project rolling.    I prefer a print book though, and I tend to wait on the physical book before buying, often getting the PDF as well after the fact.

Quote from: oggsmash on April 16, 2022, 01:59:04 AM
  I did not back their kickstarter, I just figured they would have a print book at some point.  I do not know if the KS backers have a physical book yet (I do not back any KS any more), and I agree, Pinnacle should be well past the need for KS to get a project rolling.    I prefer a print book though, and I tend to wait on the physical book before buying, often getting the PDF as well after the fact.

I didn't back the PF KS either, and I'm not really following that property all that closely, so I don't know the status of the books. It doesn't help that PEG tends to use fakebook almost exclusively for all they news updates, despite having their own frickin website. Did I mention they're a screwy company?

Quote from: Effete on April 15, 2022, 09:53:24 PM

Oops. Yeah, I mistyped. 196 page limit. For "printing cost" purposes, PEG doesn't go any higher.

Thanks for catching that.

This seems to be a thing of the past—Holler and the Fantasy Companion have both gone over 200.

Quote from: FingerRod on April 15, 2022, 01:40:58 PM
Always great to see resolve and conviction melt away when it is a product people like.

I am averse to people telling ME I need to avoid the word "Race" (either directly, or indirectly through virtue signaling), and I have no doubt that SW is either doing just that with this move, or capitulating to those who would. Either way, it's gross. (For the record, I have zero attachment to SW ... never played it, and not particularly enamored of the descriptions I've heard.)

That's all an entirely separate issue from whether "Ancestry" is a useful term in itself for gaming of course. I'd say definitely so, your opinion may differ.

If your "convictions" are to hate everything anything remotely adjacent to an SJW talking point, then go for it. Some of us have more nuanced "convictions", and prefer not to be controlled by whatever the latest nonsense is that SJWs are spouting.

Quote from: Zalman on April 16, 2022, 11:03:16 AM
That's all an entirely separate issue from whether "Ancestry" is a useful term in itself for gaming of course. I'd say definitely so, your opinion may differ.

It depends on what you mean. In a sci-fi setting "species" is the better word. In a fantasy campaign, I think "kin" is a good alternative. "Ancestry" might be OK with a generic system, but it gets a bit fuzzy, and it's annoying to use that word when they could use "race" instead.

Quote from: Zalman on April 16, 2022, 11:03:16 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on April 15, 2022, 01:40:58 PM
Always great to see resolve and conviction melt away when it is a product people like.

I am averse to people telling ME I need to avoid the word "Race" (either directly, or indirectly through virtue signaling), and I have no doubt that SW is either doing just that with this move, or capitulating to those who would. Either way, it's gross. (For the record, I have zero attachment to SW ... never played it, and not particularly enamored of the descriptions I've heard.)

That's all an entirely separate issue from whether "Ancestry" is a useful term in itself for gaming of course. I'd say definitely so, your opinion may differ.

If your "convictions" are to hate everything anything remotely adjacent to an SJW talking point, then go for it. Some of us have more nuanced "convictions", and prefer not to be controlled by whatever the latest nonsense is that SJWs are spouting.

You seemed to have inferred a lot there. There is enough smoke around PEG for them to be yellow. You don't agree, that's fine.

You could not be more wrong about my level of nuance around this. My two most recent purchases were from companies I consider yellow.

Quote from: FingerRod on April 16, 2022, 05:31:49 PM

Quote from: Zalman on April 16, 2022, 11:03:16 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on April 15, 2022, 01:40:58 PM
Always great to see resolve and conviction melt away when it is a product people like.

I am averse to people telling ME I need to avoid the word "Race" (either directly, or indirectly through virtue signaling), and I have no doubt that SW is either doing just that with this move, or capitulating to those who would. Either way, it's gross. (For the record, I have zero attachment to SW ... never played it, and not particularly enamored of the descriptions I've heard.)

That's all an entirely separate issue from whether "Ancestry" is a useful term in itself for gaming of course. I'd say definitely so, your opinion may differ.

If your "convictions" are to hate everything anything remotely adjacent to an SJW talking point, then go for it. Some of us have more nuanced "convictions", and prefer not to be controlled by whatever the latest nonsense is that SJWs are spouting.

You seemed to have inferred a lot there. There is enough smoke around PEG for them to be yellow. You don't agree, that's fine.

You could not be more wrong about my level of nuance around this. My two most recent purchases were from companies I consider yellow.

I kind of agree, I really just want to see this upcoming release. Far as business practices are, i think we are starting to see an actual pattern right now

Quote from: Zalman on April 16, 2022, 11:03:16 AM
I am averse to people telling ME I need to avoid the word "Race" (either directly, or indirectly through virtue signaling), and I have no doubt that SW is either doing just that with this move, or capitulating to those who would. Either way, it's gross.

Quote from: FingerRod on April 16, 2022, 05:31:49 PM
There is enough smoke around PEG for them to be yellow. You don't agree, that's fine.

Quote from: FingerRod on April 16, 2022, 05:31:49 PM
You could not be more wrong about my level of nuance around this.

Excerpted to illuminate the ironic parts. I do love a good irony.

Quote from: Zalman on April 16, 2022, 07:28:25 PM

Quote from: Zalman on April 16, 2022, 11:03:16 AM
I am averse to people telling ME I need to avoid the word "Race" (either directly, or indirectly through virtue signaling), and I have no doubt that SW is either doing just that with this move, or capitulating to those who would. Either way, it's gross.

Quote from: FingerRod on April 16, 2022, 05:31:49 PM
There is enough smoke around PEG for them to be yellow. You don't agree, that's fine.

Quote from: FingerRod on April 16, 2022, 05:31:49 PM
You could not be more wrong about my level of nuance around this.

Excerpted to illuminate the ironic parts. I do love a good irony.

That was in reply to you claiming I was overreacting to anything SJW adjacent. The supporting sentence to the one you quoted was the nuance I was referring to.

Quote from: FingerRod on April 16, 2022, 05:31:49 PM
..... My two most recent purchases were from companies I consider yellow.

This is an interesting discussion point. I'll admit I haven't read every post in this thread, but would any here care if we bought stuff on the yellow or red list?

I mean honestly, to me, I'd be It's your money, have at it. I'll continue to buy stuff from some yellow companies if it's something that will fit my game.

Would the argument be if I buy stuff from yellow and red I'm keeping them afloat?

For me, all I've seen the list as, is companies that share/don't share the values I have, and they being very vocal about it.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 17, 2022, 12:10:47 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on April 16, 2022, 05:31:49 PM
..... My two most recent purchases were from companies I consider yellow.

This is an interesting discussion point. I'll admit I haven't read every post in this thread, but would any here care if we bought stuff on the yellow or red list?

I mean honestly, to me, I'd be It's your money, have at it. I'll continue to buy stuff from some yellow companies if it's something that will fit my game.

Would the argument be if I buy stuff from yellow and red I'm keeping them afloat?

For me, all I've seen the list as, is companies that share/don't share the values I have, and they being very vocal about it.

The way I see it a yellow company - or one that should be yellow - is a risky purchase. There's past behaviour that indicates they could turn red. And if you've invested into a system from a company that turns red, you might find it to be a drag buying anything more from them or continuing to play it.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 17, 2022, 12:10:47 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on April 16, 2022, 05:31:49 PM
..... My two most recent purchases were from companies I consider yellow.

This is an interesting discussion point. I'll admit I haven't read every post in this thread, but would any here care if we bought stuff on the yellow or red list?

I mean honestly, to me, I'd be It's your money, have at it. I'll continue to buy stuff from some yellow companies if it's something that will fit my game.

Would the argument be if I buy stuff from yellow and red I'm keeping them afloat?

For me, all I've seen the list as, is companies that share/don't share the values I have, and they being very vocal about it.

Yes, anyone that does such must report to the Kulture Kommissar to be evaluated and probably sent to a re-education camp comrade!