SPECIAL NOTICE
Malicious code was found on the site, which has been removed, but would have been able to access files and the database, revealing email addresses, posts, and encoded passwords (which would need to be decoded). However, there is no direct evidence that any such activity occurred. REGARDLESS, BE SURE TO CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS. And as is good practice, remember to never use the same password on more than one site. While performing housekeeping, we also decided to upgrade the forums.
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

How have RPGs drifted from Tolkien?

Started by jhkim, April 12, 2023, 03:32:28 PM

Previous topic - Next topic
Print
Go Down Pages 1 ... 4 5 6
User actions

Steven Mitchell

#75
April 19, 2023, 03:07:09 PM
Three Hearts and Three Lions, The Broken Sword are the Anderson works that are most influential in D&D.  The elves are positively malicious and almost alien, but are described much closer to D&D elves in appearance than Tolkien elves. 


It's been awhile since I read any Tanith Lee or the Mabinogion.  I've got a vague sense of more primal elves from those, but I may be remembering incorrectly.  With the Mabinogion, it's sometimes hard to separate out what is actually in it, versus what other people have done with as an inspiration.

Trond

#76
April 19, 2023, 03:23:39 PM
Poul Anderson is one of the most underrated writers. He's most known for Sci-Fi but The Broken Sword is excellent saga-based fantasy (and also fairly early in terms of modern fantasy). His elves are more cruel than those of Tolkien. I think this is also based on folklore: people would offer gifts to elves to stay on their good side (alfablot). If pissed off, the elves could punish/curse you in various ways.

GeekyBugle

#77
April 19, 2023, 04:53:19 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 19, 2023, 03:07:09 PM
Three Hearts and Three Lions, The Broken Sword are the Anderson works that are most influential in D&D.  The elves are positively malicious and almost alien, but are described much closer to D&D elves in appearance than Tolkien elves. 


It's been awhile since I read any Tanith Lee or the Mabinogion.  I've got a vague sense of more primal elves from those, but I may be remembering incorrectly.  With the Mabinogion, it's sometimes hard to separate out what is actually in it, versus what other people have done with as an inspiration.

Damn, now I need to get those books to add to my to read pile (probably won't manage to read them all before I hang the meat suit but still.)
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

Baron

#78
April 19, 2023, 04:57:40 PM Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 09:09:03 PM by Baron
My (mostly spoiler-free) review of Three Hearts and Three Lions:

https://themichlinguide.wordpress.com/2022/07/21/review-three-hearts-and-three-lions-a-dd-novel/

I haven't gotten around to reviewing Broken Sword, but I've blogged about other Anderson work, mostly science fiction relevant to Traveller.

El-V

#79
April 19, 2023, 05:35:57 PM
There are also elves and half elves (along with willow the wisps and gnolls) in the pre-Tolkien works of Edward Plunkett, Lord Dunsany - whom Gary Gygax was fond of - especially in the story The King of Elfland's Daughter. Dunsany's elves are more faery than D&D elves, but you can see some of Dunsany's elf DNA in D&D.

Steven Mitchell

#80
April 19, 2023, 06:38:47 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2023, 04:53:19 PM

Damn, now I need to get those books to add to my to read pile (probably won't manage to read them all before I hang the meat suit but still.)

Find a little book called "On Fantasy" which is a collection of short stories and essays by Anderson.  You'll get a broad swatch of the kind of tales he does (though not all of it makes it into novel form).  If you like the more serious stories in that, you'll like his longer works. 

Persimmon

#81
April 19, 2023, 06:47:43 PM
FWIW DCC elves are primarily based on Poul Anderson's writings.  Hence, most are neutral, tricky, and they are allergic to iron.  Personally I find Anderson rather overrated as a writer, but if you're curious in the origins, the books are out there.

GeekyBugle

#82
April 19, 2023, 07:39:54 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 19, 2023, 06:38:47 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2023, 04:53:19 PM

Damn, now I need to get those books to add to my to read pile (probably won't manage to read them all before I hang the meat suit but still.)

Find a little book called "On Fantasy" which is a collection of short stories and essays by Anderson.  You'll get a broad swatch of the kind of tales he does (though not all of it makes it into novel form).  If you like the more serious stories in that, you'll like his longer works.

Thanks! Will do!
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

Ruprecht

#83
April 20, 2023, 09:18:28 PM
The main divergence is hardly anybody sings in D&D while in Tolkien Dwarves and Elves (and even Orcs if you count the Rankin Bass Return of the  King) break into song. You need to make everyone half Bard or something.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. ~Robert E. Howard

Grognard GM

#84
April 20, 2023, 09:42:59 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on April 20, 2023, 09:18:28 PM
The main divergence is hardly anybody sings in D&D while in Tolkien Dwarves and Elves (and even Orcs if you count the Rankin Bass Return of the  King) break into song. You need to make everyone half Bard or something.

You just need to arm them all with whips.

Where there's a whip, there's a way.
I'm a middle aged guy with a lot of free time, looking for similar, to form a group for regular gaming. You should be chill, non-woke, and have time on your hands.

See below:

https://www.therpgsite.com/news-and-adverts/looking-to-form-a-group-of-people-with-lots-of-spare-time-for-regular-games/

Chris24601

#85
April 21, 2023, 08:02:32 AM
Quote from: Ruprecht on April 20, 2023, 09:18:28 PM
The main divergence is hardly anybody sings in D&D while in Tolkien Dwarves and Elves (and even Orcs if you count the Rankin Bass Return of the  King) break into song. You need to make everyone half Bard or something.
Pre-mass media you had to make your own entertainment. Ale houses were known for singing as much as booze. I imagine most pre-industrial societies had fairly robust folk music traditions.

Something to consider when creating your own fantasy settings.

David Johansen

#86
April 21, 2023, 09:05:03 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 20, 2023, 09:42:59 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on April 20, 2023, 09:18:28 PM
The main divergence is hardly anybody sings in D&D while in Tolkien Dwarves and Elves (and even Orcs if you count the Rankin Bass Return of the  King) break into song. You need to make everyone half Bard or something.

You just need to arm them all with whips.

Where there's a whip, there's a way.

So, whip it, whip it good!
Fantasy Adventure Comic, games, and more http://www.uncouthsavage.com

Slambo

#87
April 21, 2023, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 11:56:23 AM
Quote from: Wrath of God on April 19, 2023, 10:14:45 AM
Quote from: SHARK on April 14, 2023, 04:33:34 PM
However, if he ever did say that Tolkien didn't have any influence on D&D, then Gary was lying, or delusional.

As has been mentioned, there could be more motives here for even saying such by Gary--despite the absolute abundance of artistic, flavour, narrative, and stylistic evidence that Tolkien had *IMMENSE* influence on D&D.

Anyone that doesn't think Tolkien had an *IMMENSE* influence on D&D must simply be an obtuse moron, honestly.

I doubt Gary said that Tolkien had no influence. He put Tolkien in Appendix N that's kinda clear.
I think he said his elves and dwarves were not Tolkienian but took from same sources Tolkien took his elves and dwarves - Northern European Folklore, and more inspired by faerie fantasy of Anderson than Tolkien - things like elves having no immortal souls, and living in very elusive enchanted places, and never sleeping - that's not Tolkien.

Does it say in D&D that elves have no immortal souls? I'd be surprised. Elves in Tolkien are known for living in places like Rivendell and Lothlorien, which I'd say count as elusive and enchanted. As for not sleeping -- that is also in Tolkien, which was highlighted when Legolas was chasing after Merry and Pippin, and he could even walk while sleeping.

QuoteHe [Legolas] could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of Elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world.

Without Tolkien, elves in popular culture were known more for making toys at the North Pole or fixing shoes -- not at all using longbows and longswords and fighting orcs. Though to be fair, while I've read some Poul Anderson, I don't recall his elves. Are there any specific works you can suggest that have elves like D&D elves?

Its mentioned under raise dead that elves cant ve resurrected cause they have no souls in Ad&D i dont know if its mentioned in OD&D
Print
Go Up Pages 1 ... 4 5 6
User actions