"The Trouble" of playing as a campaign, that is.

I'll start: Middle Earth.  Yup. Its just too small and too focused on the characters from the movies; unlike say Star Wars (where there's a huge galaxy one can have all kinds of epic things in without stepping on the movie's feet, and various different time periods that would each have a very different feel to them), Middle Earth has always felt to me like you can't really be anything other than non-epic, because Tolkien already took all the good epicness.  Also, outside of the time of the war of the Ring, its a pretty dull place for a fantasy world.

Feel free to debate the point with me, or to just propose some other setting you feel that way about.

RPGPundit

While I am a fan of the show (Firefly) and the movie (Serenity) I just dont think that it has enough to make it work as an RPG.

You fight the Reavers, you trade items, you smuggle people, you fly through space (thus a lull point until you fight reavers again).

It's great as a show and a movie but doesn't have enough substance for a game.

And using a piss poor system doesnt help the matter any.

Middle Earth actually has a long history and a huge geography if you're willing to read all the extra books - it rather dry and obtuse at times.  But a campaign set at the time of LOTR would make the characters overshadowed unless they are in a distant location.  Much earlier or a little later would work.  I haven't explored any of the attempts to see if they provide decent info that for alternative campaigns that still feel like middle earth.


Yea, I Serenity doesn't have a lot of info - you'd pretty much have to wing it and adapt it so another system.


For me Forgotten Realms is just a big mess that I'd never touch.  Too much over the top silliness disguised as drama.  Too many one dimensional uber npcs.  It was never more than decent in the first place - now, it's a joke.

As the man said, "There aint never nothing going on." How hard are you willing to work to make it interesting? To make sure there's stuff going on?

Years ago in the days of early Traveller the received wisdom was that once you had a triangle trade set-up going, you were golden. There was no more reason to play. Quite forgetting the universal applicability of Murphy's Law. To whit, "Any time something can go wrong, it will go wrong."

There aint never nothing going on. There's always the potential for disaster. Wars and riots, brigandage and taxes, official notice, and false accusations. Collapse of the market is a fun one. You don't get to relax and take it easy until you're dead. At which point it becomes sort of mandatory.

Let me put it this way; it's never enough to build your monument, once it's up you have to maintain it.

Middle-earth?
Well I never understood why people all over the place never play the fourth age!
You must rebuild the northern kingdom of mankind for starters, the railroady elves aren´t a power anymore and all kinds of new baddies and epic shit will happen.

Fourth Age must rock.

But everybody always wants to go back to the lame second or the overexplained third. I just don´t get it.

Quote from: SettembriniMiddle-earth?
Well I never understood why people all over the place never play the fourth age!
You must rebuild the northern kingdom of mankind for starters, the railroady elves aren´t a power anymore and all kinds of new baddies and epic shit will happen.

Fourth Age must rock.

But everybody always wants to go back to the lame second or the overexplained third. I just don´t get it.

Well, I think some people aren't happy in messing with a "happily ever after" ending by setting things in a period after the canon fiction.  Also, using a setting which has been thoroughly transformed (i.e. Middle Earth without elves or Sauron, or Star Wars without the Empire) loses some of the point of the familiarity.  

I played in a LotR RPG campaign called The Northern Shadow set in the Lonely Mountain area, post-Hobbit but before LotR.  I had a bunch of problems with other aspects of the game, but I thought the setting was fine.

Quote from: RPGPundit" I'll start: Middle Earth.  Yup. Its just too small and too focused on the characters from the movies; unlike say Star Wars (where there's a huge galaxy one can have all kinds of epic things in without stepping on the movie's feet, and various different time periods that would each have a very different feel to them), Middle Earth has always felt to me like you can't really be anything other than non-epic, because Tolkien already took all the good epicness.  Also, outside of the time of the war of the Ring, its a pretty dull place for a fantasy world.

I agree, except for the Second Age.

I think one could run a rocking, truly original, 2nd Age campaign.

I was going to buy the Serenity RPG, but decided it would be just as easy to use Traveller or D6 Star Wars (Hell GURPS Space would work just as well) for the base rules.  Battle Star Galactica really doesn't need a RPG either as it can also be played with the above systems with very little change.

Dr Who had a couple of attempts at RPGs, but its a universe built around a single character and who would want to play a companion rather than a time lord.

Star Wars vs. Middle Earth? Both had about the same problem, not enough information and background. I think the main difference is that Star Wars is very easy to extend and WEG did a great job with that. Adding stuff to Middle Earth on the other hand is a bit more difficult. Tolkien fans are much more rabid about changes that they think violates the spirit. And they're partly right. Most Middle Earth campaigns won't be "Lord of the Rings" campaigns. No epic journey of old guys to save the world.

The big question for licensed settings is whether the fans are interested in playing something that goes beyond the original. Is the background in its own right good enough for extended use?

I always thought that Middle Earth should've been tackled in a Pendragon way, not in a D&D way. (I do like MERP, but not exactly for the ME part)

I have yet to find a liscenesed seting that i woukd want to actually use. Read, enjoy, rape for ideas (although I rarely do this), and shelve is about all I ever do with such things.

Quote from: SettembriniMiddle-earth?
Well I never understood why people all over the place never play the fourth age!
You must rebuild the northern kingdom of mankind for starters, the railroady elves aren´t a power anymore and all kinds of new baddies and epic shit will happen.

Fourth Age must rock.

But everybody always wants to go back to the lame second or the overexplained third. I just don´t get it.

Same here. There is a ton of stuff to do in the Fourth Age. I even started writing a campaign outline called "The Ruins of Barad-dur," which was set in the Fourth Age. Never came to anything, as I lost my gaming group. Regardless, the Fourth Age is teeming with adventure and campaign hooks. If anyone read my blog here on this site, they'd see I went over campaign possibilities in Fourth Age Middle-earth. Here is a chunk from that blog, which was originally an article I wrote for the defunct Middle-earth d20 site:

Quote from: me, elsewhere on this siteSome thoughts on the running of a Fourth Age Middle Earth campaign

A Fourth Age Middle Earth campaign is a great way to use Tolkien's world as a game setting without having to worry about, or change, canon. Tolkien himself provides a lot of interesting detail about his world after the time of the Lord of the Rings, detail that provides a wealth of campaign hooks and ideas. I'll quote some of this material to show how relevant it is to a DM wanting to run a campaign in Middle Earth.

"For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace. And wherever King Elessar went with war King Eomer went with him; and beyond the Sea of Rhun and on the far fields of the South the thunder of the cavalry of the Mark was heard, and the White Horse upon Green flew in many winds until Eomer grew old."

- The Return of the King, Apendix A, part II, The House of Eorl

This paragraph sets the premise for decades of Fourth Age adventure. It doesn't involve just Men, either. Even though Tolkien makes much of how the Fourth Age is a time of fading for all the peoples of Middle Earth except Men, it is apparent that many of the other races are actually becoming much more gregarious in the Fourth Age. Here are some examples:

"After the fall of Sauron, Gimli brought south a part of the Dwarf-folk of Erebor, and he became Lord of the Glittering Caves. He and his people did great works in Gondor and Rohan. For Minas Tirith they forged gates of mithril and steel to replace those broken by the Witch-king. Legolas his friend brought south Elves out of Greenwood, and they dwelt in Ithilien,
and it became once again the fairest country in all the westlands."

- The Return of the King, Appendix A, part III, Durin's Folk

"Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow had passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

In the North also there had been war and evil. The realm of Thranduil was invaded, and there was long battle under the trees and great ruin of fire; but in the end Thranduil had the victory. And on the day of the New Year of the Elves, Celeborn and Thranduil met in the midst of the forest; and they renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen, The Wood of Greenleaves. Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took all the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lorien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen. But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lorien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadon."

- The Return of the King, Appendix B, The Tale of Years

In addition, it seems that the Fourth Age is a time of renewal and rebuilding. A few brief but significant passages suggest that Elessar seeks to reinvigorate the entire northwestern part of Middle Earth, something which will take a number of hardy individuals performing countless heroic deeds. Here are some examples:

"King Elessar rides north, and dwells for a while by Lake Evendim."
[Fourth Age 14]

- The Return of the King, Appendix B, The Tale of Years

"And Aragorn gave to Faramir Ithilien to be his princedom, and bade him dwell in the hills of Emyn Arnen within sight of the City.'For,' said he, 'Minas Ithil in Morgul Vale shall be utterly destroyed, and though it may in time to come be made clean, no man may dwell there for many long years.'"

- The Return of the King, Book VI, Chapter V: The Steward and the King

As simple as these passages seem, the actual doing of the deeds required to accomplish them is rather difficult. Elessar not only travels to, but actually lives at Annuminas for a while. Seeing that the city was a ruin at the end of the Third Age, abandoned for centuries, and surrounded by wilderness, this implies an enormous effort was made by Gondor. It seems clear that Annuminas is restored, and becomes the chief city of the northern kingdom. It is not difficult to picture that King Elessar also rebuilt Fornost Erain and Tharbad. It is also highly likely, even though unmentioned, that Osgiliath was cleared and rebuilt; given Elessar's desire to rebuild the Dunedain kingdoms, this seems a natural assumption to make.

In addition, the destruction of Minas Ithil, an entire fortress-city the size of Minas Tirith (at least), held by the chief of the Nazgul for centuries and used as a base for a large part of the strength of Mordor, is a task which would have to involve thousands of troops. This is especially true if the city was used as a rallying point and base for some of the remnants of Sauron's armies. It is not hard to imagine that the interior of the city is filled with all manner of evil things - Men, beasts, traps, and a generally unwholesome atmosphere. Very much like a D&D adventure. And speaking of D&D adventures...

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day."

- The Two Towers, Book III, Chapter V: The White Rider

With the Balrog defeated, Sauron gone, and a huge part of the strength of the orcs in the region destroyed, it is quite likely that the Dwarves would at least begin to explore and clean out Moria. This would provide the archetypal dungeon adventure. Especially given that tantalizing glimpse Gandalf gives into a world of darkness and horror far beneath even where the Kings of the Dwarves once dwelled.

Here are a few random, and final, thoughts about possibilities for Fourth Age campaigns:

Mirkwood (renamed Eryn Lasgalen) and Ithilien would likely also remain havens for a time for evil creatures, such as spiders and orcs, until the Elves, woodmen, and Beornings finally rid the forest of them. Shelob still dwells near Cirth Ungol, and the Watcher in the Water still haunts the lake near the west gate of Moria.

Veterans of Celeborn's taking of Dol Guldur would be good candidates for duty in Mordor itself, or any place wherein darkness still holds sway.

There are at least two great Elves still unaccounted for in the 4th Age: Daeron and Maglor. Perhaps one or the other is encountered in the East, or perhaps one or the other returns to western Middle Earth, finally weary of wandering, their pain and sorrow driving them towards the west at last. Perhaps one of them could take up residence in fading Lorien, or even in Rivendell for a time, or take up the kingship of East Lorien once Celeborn leaves.

Quote from: SettembriniMiddle-earth?
Well I never understood why people all over the place never play the fourth age!
You must rebuild the northern kingdom of mankind for starters, the railroady elves aren´t a power anymore and all kinds of new baddies and epic shit will happen.

Fourth Age must rock.

But everybody always wants to go back to the lame second or the overexplained third. I just don´t get it.

I think it's because Tolkien made it very clear that all the magic stuff and the wierd races and such were all fading away in the Fourth Age.  All the stuff that makes it fantasy is all dying.  The elves are gone, the hobbits go back home and don't talk to anyone anymore, the wizards are gone, the Dunedain are all but non-existent, magic is fading from the world, etc., etc.  

Tolkien intended the Fourth Age as beign the transitional period between the fantasy world and a mundane medieval world where tales like LotR are myth and legend.  Our world.

Quote from: J ArcaneI think it's because Tolkien made it very clear that all the magic stuff and the wierd races and such were all fading away in the Fourth Age.  All the stuff that makes it fantasy is all dying.  The elves are gone, the hobbits go back home and don't talk to anyone anymore, the wizards are gone, the Dunedain are all but non-existent, magic is fading from the world, etc., etc.  

Tolkien intended the Fourth Age as beign the transitional period between the fantasy world and a mundane medieval world where tales like LotR are myth and legend.  Our world.

Actually, the elves are not gone. Even Tolkien mentions that the Wood Elves never left Middle-earth, and Thranduil, their king and Legolas' father, seemed inclined to stay also. They just became even more reclusive than they were. Same with Hobbits. Tolkien hints that all these beings - elves, hobbits, goblins - still remain in our world, but are extremely difficult to find.

Quote from: RockViperDr Who had a couple of attempts at RPGs, but its a universe built around a single character and who would want to play a companion rather than a time lord.

Well, technically, you can play multiple TimeLords (even multiple Doctors), but you're right -- as a game, it's good for one-shots and cons stuff, but the default set-up is hell for any kind of "regular" gaming. I'm a huge Who fan, but as much as it pains me to say it, the property is just not well-suited to being a roleplaying game.

The sole exception caveat might be a UNIT campaign (post-Doctor), but you could effectviely do this with a working knowledge of the show and any decent generic game system. You don't really need a whole game for it (although, actually having stats for the myriad of creatures that UNIT would be prone to fight might be nice).

Other properties that don't seem to do it. . .

Girl Genius -- this game isn't out yet, of course, but I suspect that it will have many of the same problems that Dr. Who does and the fact that if you drop the iconic charcters as PCS, any steampunk game will effectively do the setting just fine.

StarShip Troopers -- I love Heinlein's books. I loved the old boardgame. But let's face it -- there isn't anything that the official RPG does that one couldn't do with a copy of the novel and a good set of generic rules. In fact, seeing as how the official RPG borrows more from the non-canon animated series, you could probably do better with a copy of the novel and a good set of generic rules.

Licensed settings that aren't worth the trouble? All of them!