One of the side effects of me not pushing a plotline or making the players have a group goal is that there's no reason for the coterie to really be in any scenes together. I can come up with separate mini plotlines based on what I think might interest each character, but you end up with lots of 1:1 disconnected scenes, no sense of building tension, etc.

Too bad Benoist doesn't post here anymore. You probably need an experienced Vampire GM to help with that one.

As for WoD, I ran more Werewolf where the PCs were a pack or emissaries of various packs. In Aeon Trinity (my fav WoD game), it was easier since the PCs were sent by their "clans" to protect humanity (and push agendas).

But my Vampire experience is limited to mostly playing, and GMs I know all cheated - aka, our PCs were assigned a reason by the GM why we were a team so we didn't just go wandering about on our own and backstabbing each other. A common one was the PCs + a couple NPCs were grouped together by a local Prince to act as troubleshooters against threats to his power which allowed the rest of the NPC vamps to go about their intrigues.

But these conceits were set up pre-game. I don't know how useful that may be to "impose" once the campaign has begun. As with any change to a campaign, you need buy in from the players.

Here's a dirty little secret: most missions don't have the group together in an easy, within-close-combat-range scene. Those missions that do are by design lethal, social espionage, or debriefings. Just look at any cloak and dagger movie, like Mission Impossible. Everyone's all split up in different locations, even if they're in the same larger scene.

The elders have their reasons for the PCs coterie. Or they are a coterie formed from mutual convenience or mutual terror. They will face their own problems often without the full force of their allies — that should scare them alone and tone down combat.

As for what scenes to bring them together? The game has that built in: elysium, cathedral, salon, temple, court, etc. Doesn't matter the WoD monster, its clan, or its sect, it will have a formalized, built-in reason to gather en masse. Also there's debriefing sessions among higher ups giving orders.

The players should enjoy their time alone. That way they can keep secrets. Building tension should be from latent paranoia confirmed in percolator drips. Also, when an event happens they will be viewing it from different viewpoints, like that car accident amid bystanders analogy.

Are you trying to build up to a grand campaign with an epic story arc? Like perhaps a midnight siege against their city? I'd let them enjoy normalcy first — makes the deterioration of humanity during a hidden war stand out in contrast. Looks like a normal city with a few weird, tumultuous events, meanwhile PCs are suffering PTSD as they have to test their network's bonds and have no one to really share it with. Now go out there among the kine like nothing's wrong...

It's just a ton more effort to run a sandbox campaign like this! I'm barely creative enough to come up with one plot. Now to get them to do anything I need to come up with a "cookie" to beg each character to do something, and I end up with 5 disconnected plots.

It's definitely easier for a mediocre GM to run a "the party are Players that run X that do Y." I would tell any mediocre GM NEVER to run Vampire the Masquerade!

Yeah, I think one of the big failings of Vampire is that it doesn't have a logical, natural, "default" group concept or set of concepts straight out of the book, though some supplements do offer such things. (For instance, the latest V20 supplement - Dread Names, Red List - has guidelines on running a campaign where the PCs are troubleshooters for the Camarilla, hunting down folks on the Red List.)

Firstly, have you asked the players yet about why they aren't being more proactive about going out and doing stuff? They might not realise that you were counting them on doing this; equally, they may not feel equipped to do so. For instance, I can imagine a situation where as a player I'm quite keen to get involved in the vampiric politics of the city, but I don't have enough details on them to really know where to begin. Part of the reason that relying on player proactivity doesn't save as much time as you might think it would is that for players to be meaningfully proactive, they need to know enough about the in-world situation to make informed decisions - and that means that when they ask you questions about that to get that information you need to either have an answer ready for them or at least have a clear idea of what they need to do IC to find out the answer.

Secondly, it seems to me that in the absent of a positive common agenda, the campaign might feel more cohesive if there were a common threat. If you can't find areas where multiple player characters' interests overlap, try looking for NPCs or factions who would end up screwing up multiple different areas of the players' lives if they got their own way and see about drawing the players' attention to them. If the PCs' agendas would all be wrecked if the Sabbat take over the city, take a look at what the Sabbat are already doing and see if you can amplify it. (If the Sabbat aren't already messing with the city, then I'd say it's high time for a crew of Sabbat wreckers, saboteurs, recruiters and other subversives to roll up to start making trouble.)

As tenbones pointed out in his excellent posts in the other VtM sandbox topic, you already have a built-in "cookie" to motivate players to go outside and do things: hunting for blood.

I could care less if some PCs want to sit around and play video games all night, with the occasional blood snack run. That blood snack run should challenge them to pay attention to their political world and practice their masquerade. If they don't they're stepping on political toes of those who will likely shove back, and if they are truly careless they are a masquerade event unto themselves.

Truly dumb, incautious players die faster in VtM, period. You're a predator among greater predators, who all have to hide from the greatest predator of all — awakened and unified humanity. Make them work for their next HBO binge night. Kill their PCs if they balk, wanting to go back to hand-wavium.

As long as you have your NPCs moving with their agendas, and you offered quest tidbits, you're fine. Sometimes PCs die in sandboxes. Good. Means the freeform nature let's them choose their own adventures.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;841184One of the side effects of me not pushing a plotline or making the players have a group goal is that there's no reason for the coterie to really be in any scenes together. I can come up with separate mini plotlines based on what I think might interest each character, but you end up with lots of 1:1 disconnected scenes, no sense of building tension, etc.

What you need are crossovers:

The simplest type of crossover is a direct crossover. This is where an element or outcome from one scene appears immediately in a different scene. For example, if one group blows up the arms depot then the other group might hear the explosion from across town. Or Colonel Kurtz flees from one group of PCs and ends up running back to his office... which the other PCs are currently searching.

Indirect crossovers are both subtler and more varied. These are common or related elements in each scene which are not identical. For example, you might have Franklin discover a cult manual bearing the sign of a white cobra while, simultaneously, John sees a white cobra painted on the face of his murdered wife.

An indirect crossover might not have any specific connection in the game world whatsoever: For example, Suzy might ask Rick out for a date at the Italian Stallion on Friday night. Simultaneously, in a different scene, Bobby gets ordered by his police lieutenant to arrange surveillance for a mob boss meeting at the same restaurant at the same time. Suzy and Rick have no connection to the mob or the police, but that's still a crossover.

This also demonstrates how crossovers can be used to weave disconnected narratives together: Suzy, Rick, and Bobby are all going to end up at that restaurant at the same time. Franklin and John are both going to be launching separate investigations into the white cobra. It's still not clear exactly how their paths are going to cross, but they've definitely been set on a collision course.

This technique can be particularly effective at the beginning of a scenario or campaign: Instead of having the PCs all meet in a bar, you can instead launch them all into separate scenes and then seed crossovers into those scenes to slowly and organically draw them all together.

Another way of using these techniques is to strengthen the role of player-as-audience-member. You know that moment in a horror movie where the audience doesn't want a character to open a door because they know something the character doesn't? Hard to do in an RPG... unless the table knows it (because it was established in a different scene), but the PC doesn't. (This assumes, of course, that your players are mature enough to handle a separation of PC and player knowledge.)

I think everyone is giving the OP good advice. I think what you need Pencil is some structure.

Something to consider (I don't recall this being brought up yet, and I casually mentioned it) - is Tiers of play.

These are not "hard" set things. They're assumptions based on the general level of Kindred society (or whatever splat you're using) the PC's operate at. And of course I'm saying all of this as a generalization. Take this all with a grain of salt and tweak it to fit your needs.

Tier 1 - the PC's are complete noobs. They should be scrabbling about looking for consistant sources of blood, feeling the impact of how their lives have changed, whether that means they're new to being a vampire and have vestiges of their mortal lives clinging to them. Or they might be newly awakened from torpor and have to come to grips with the new age. The point is they're learning the ropes. This means you need to know who controls what, and what are the real dangers your PC's face on a night-to-night basis.

They should be interfacing with the lowest rung of their respective Clan structures. PC's at this level often are tripping over various political faultlines without even knowing it. So it takes vampires, usually within the members Clan (this depends ENTIRELY on how your Clans operate in your city/region), they might take the PC's under their wing and show them the ropes. What kind of internal Clan traditions do the PC's need to participate in to gain acceptance with the rest of the local Clan? See the hooks here? Having an intense run-in with the local law enforcement is always good for establishing the status-quo.

Suggestions: This is the bottom of the respective barrel for Kindred society. Who in your city benefits from having these rank-and-file scrabblers's support? No one? If not - then you're telling them they have to fend for themselves. Against WHAT? <--- you need to figure that out.

Getting the party together depends on the Clan politics of your city. Generally - blood is always an issue (as mentioned before). But politics - well, if you have a Tremere, a Brujah, a Gangrel and a Toreador in your group... then you have to thread those needles accordingly. Tremere are severely insular, but you're a clever GM, come up with a reason that the Tremere requires "outside assistance" for some long-term project.

Just because vampires are from different clans, who might overall hate one another, doesn't mean every Clan elder hates every member of the other clans. But again, that's up to you. It's a little too cut-and-dry for me to do that.

There's always something for the low-ranking kindred of a city to get involved in - even if it's just for a free night of bloodpoints. Establishing a SECURE HAVEN is paramount. Do not disregard this. If you let your elders be stupid and ignore the fact that the surest way to keep a potential kindred threat in check is knowing where they sleep everyday - you're doing yourself a disservice. Give me a squad of ghouls at high-noon and I'll take on any individual PC vampire.

Introduce some of the mysteries of your city/region here. Why do no vampires go north of Good Hope road? Why do kindred get weird sensations from round hill in the park/woods with the spiral path that winds around it? What is causing the homeless bums to disappear from the Skid Row section of your city? Who is the mysterious Vampire that shows up to give "damn good advice" about their problems, without the young vampire ever revealing their problems to them? Why do the rats of the city/district migrate enmasse every week at a specific time? They come boiling out of the sewers skittering out in wild abandon. etc. etc.

Tier-2 - At this tier the PC's know the lay of the land. They might have an actual permanent haven. They should be known to their respective Clan leaders, maybe even of note to other Clan elders of which they have interacted. Tier-2 means you're part of the system. Your presence or lack thereof, is counted. PC's should have their own territory of size determined by their ability, OR they might be in tight with a powerful patron. Do they officiate any official titles within their Clan (NEVER forget about Clan politics - the more you emphasize it, the richer your game will be. The Tribalism of vampires is a powerful game-motivator. Depending on the Clan, control over resources by a Clan creates a ladder of opportunities by giving the rank and file a set of potential resources that only members of that Clan will enjoy, but can lease out for a price.

This means that the PC's can engage in intra-Clan politics (if necessary) to be the top of their Clan in the city. It's like being a Union leader.

It also means you might have powerful contacts in the mortal world to likewise use to your advantage. Having control of the Porters Guild might give you access to free and SAFE movement during the day. Or ready blood-supply when needed. Or a frothing torch-and-pitchfork carrying mob as needed.

Tier 2 is where all the gruntwork the elders of the city hand down get's executed. Presumeably by your PC's. But it also means when the shit goes down in your city - your actions/inaction will be noted. Never forget that! Every action/inaction, to "civilized" Clans, is a vote.

If you're not part of the establishment - at Tier 2, you're a minor/major shotcaller with the local badasses. Life is tough here, but the same assumptions need to be assessed: blood supply, shelter, influence.

Tier 3 - This tier is for the big mover's and shakers. Policy makers for their respective Clans. PC's might be the ones who have the Prince's ear (or one might be the Prince themselves). Tier 3 is where the rules of order are established and maintained. This also means you're front and center for all the bad problems that occur: Lupine incursion, Sabbat siege, Anarch uprising - and weirder shit. It's also the point where the demarcation between Elder and neonate/ancilla happens and now you're part of the establishment.

The irony being - if your PC's fought and connived their way to this level, they generally feel they've earned it. And invariably become the very thing they hated when they're were in Tier 1 and Tier 2.

And I should mention Diablerie. Contrary to many Vampire GM's, I'm pretty open with Diablerie once the PC's learn of it. I make it understood that Diablerie to Kindred (*regardless* of how the players might feel about it) - is viewed as cannibalism as viewed by us mere mortals. I'm not saying it IS cannibalism - I'm saying among vampires, that's how it's treated to show the degree of stigma attached to it. Generally speaking it's extremely difficult to hide it. I make it more lucrative than in the standard rules too, in order to entice players to do it. Because inevitably the hammer falls down on them.

The only times it's ever sanctioned from the Camarilla perspective, generally is during times of war against the Sabbat or during Bloodhunts. So these things should be morally confusing, and enticing. But it should also remind PC's why being an elder requires a tremendous amount of consideration. Everyone is a potential cannibal waiting to happen, and you're possibly on the menu. So think of your NPC's from that perspective and you'll start to understand the lengths of security measures they'll go through in order to protect themselves.

and yes - I've had many PC's successfully commit Diablerie in my long-standing games, but none have done it more than once, and they have all paid some heinous prices for doing it. Impart that to your players, but I don't recommend disregarding it or neutering it for the sake of your players. It's something that should exist in the game for a powerful reason.

Excellent advice again. I got something even more simple. Make a party based on what they want to do. A coterie of fast-talkers and harpies who want to gain political influence. A coterie of hounds and bonebreakers who just want some action. A group of vampires who are all erudite and are interested in uncovering occult lore. A coterie of deputies who assist the sheriff in investigating cases.

Edit:

The Tiers as written in Danse Macabre are as following:

Tier 1 is about survival. Fighting, fleeing and feeding. Running for your life or maybe running for sunset. This is a party focused game. Tier 2 is about politics. It's about the lay of the land, who controls which domain and how is the hierarchy in the city. This is the default game in Masquerade and Requiem. Tier 3 is about ideology. It is about big struggles sometimes even global struggles. The players are the movers and shakers in this game. The Camarilla-Sabbat war and the influence of ancient vampires on the world are tier 3.

Thanks all.. Here's my latest summary of the awesome advice.

General
Elders have lots of disciplines and backgrounds. They nearly always know everything they need to know about the PCs and other plans. Give them simple goals w/ a good motivation.
Elders have mastery over the city's power structure (e.g., bureacracy). Let the player's feel this
Know the situation of the Prince: how does he keep power, who challenges it, and what are everyone's relationships with him.
Require FEEDING rolls and roleplay out complications. There should be other vampires, hunters, etc. that complicate things.
Make it clear that the elders control everything, even feeding rights, and leave the scraps to everyone else.
There should always be an external threat to the city and an internal threat to the prince.
Make sure there is a common threat to the party (city) that would impact all of them.
Provide the players with an excess of information about the politics of the city.
Humanity is always a threat

Dark Ages Specific:
Pedigree matters
The Anarch revolt is a result of the brutal situation of the middle ages. It is very common for elders to blood bind their child, as part of the law handed down by Caine. Childer were under the iron boots of their elders. This will eventually drive the creation of the Sabbat through the discovery of Vaulderie by Tzimisce.
Life is hard and brutal
Provide

Tiers of Play:
Tier 1 - New. May be new vampires, or just awakened from torpor. They will interact w/ the lowest rungs of Vampire society and have to make themselves useful, and factions will find reasons to use them. Getting blood and maintaining a haven are paramount, particularly w/ feeding rights. Expose them to a large number of tantalizing mysteries of the city.
Tier 2 - Established. Players know the leaders of their clan. Players must interact with (or be interacted by) intra-Clan, intra-Clan, and intra-faction conflict.
Tier 3 - Movers. Players are leaders of their clans, are now part of the establishment, and are responsible for solving major problems.