Quote from: RPGPunditIs it still a really great concept? My feeling is yes, absolutely.

I'm happy we talked about our feelings, Pundy. Need a hug?

Quote from: RPGPunditSadly in its current version its worthless. No one is scared of level drainers in 3.x.

Rubbish. They're still one of the only sources of death spirals in D&D. Each hit makes you more susceptible to the next one. And compared to almost any other resource, levels are pretty limited.  A horde of wights or some good two-level drainers will get you down fast.

The only element missing compared to the olden days is long-time damage, in which it has been pretty unique -- and worse than death itself. If monsters need to be made scary by this crutch, the designer has done something wrong. What next, a monster that will result in my character having to sit on the bench for the next two sessions?

D&D is as deadly as ever.
It´s just way more fun to make a new character nowadays.

And honestly Pundit:

Your games were full of resurrections and wishes .
A wish brings back lost levels, even in the RC (and is free there! no XP loss no gold. You sissy.).

So stop your whining, level loss is still around, it still hurts a lot, and restoration, greater is still a 7th level spell with XP cost!

Quote from: DrewSosthenes is right when he calls it "meta-scary". I often found my players were more afraid of level drainers in Basic/Expert D&D than they were of permanent character death. Dying in a sword fight was considered to be a bitch, but part and parcel of what the characters (and more importantly the players) had signed up for. Permanent level depletion on the other hand... let's just say there's something fundamentally wrong about an opponent whose attacks transcend the setting to strike at the games infrastructure. My players really disliked it, claiming that it whiffed of "cheating" at the design level. I was inclined to agree.

QFT, humble sir. I will never use level drains in my campaigns...

I always hated them too, apart from it being utterly unfun to lose your advancement and then suck compared to the rest of the party they always reminded us we were playing a game.

One moment we have this exciting adventure happening, next we're reminded in the starkest terms that our characters are just rules constructs without any actual reality.

They were a shite idea back in the day, and they still are.  I don't see myself ever using them again.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambI agree with you. As a DM, I NEVER used level drain in my games. It always felt wrong to me.

Me As DM: "The vampire bitch-slaps you! You permanently lose 2 levels. :haw:
Player: What?! I thought vampires drained blood! :mad:
Me As DM: Not these vampires. :hehe:

1) In 3e, these drain blood, too.
2) If you want to get a visual of non-bloodsucking touch-draining, watch Ghost Rider.

QuoteI know it sounds lame if I say level-draining sounds "video-gamey" to me, but it does. I hate it when people use that argument to disparage 3e, but it honestly felt "video-gamey" in AD&D as well.

That is lame, considering AD&D was doing it far longer.

Anyways, to the topic:
Eh. I don't like permanently level drain, either. But 3e gives saves to shrug it off, and many options to deal with it otherwise.

But still, I understand the reasons for it. Unless you are going to place a mechanic in the game that compromises player control over the character (an option some players would consider to be just as heinous as level drain), it's a method of getting the player to behave in the presence of a horrifying undead  the way their character should.

Come up with an alternate solution to that problem (and there are some, but YMMV when it comes to who will find it acceptable), then we'll talk about kicking level drain to the door. Otherwise, I'll keep it handy.