Let me state clearly now: Level drains sucks ass.

They should call it "players-having-fun drain".

Erm, seriously, I never understood the reason why this artifact was kept in the current edition of D&D. It might have served well in its time, when all you had that defined your character was the level (and class). Therefore someone who lost a level simply got weaker. Even spells lost could be justified, as you simply didn't have the power anymore to cast them.

But nowadays you've got some heavy multi-classing, skills, feats and class abilities that you suddenly don't remember anymore? But other parts of your memory aren't affected? Give me a break?

I'd say that it was a crock even back in the days, just a mediocre tool to get players scared about one of the things they valued mostly. But in current 3E incarnations, the rules side is just too troublesome.

Throw that motherfucker in the legacy bin.

Quote from: SosthenesLet me state clearly now: Level drains sucks ass.

They should call it "players-having-fun drain".

Erm, seriously, I never understood the reason why this artifact was kept in the current edition of D&D. It might have served well in its time, when all you had that defined your character was the level (and class). Therefore someone who lost a level simply got weaker. Even spells lost could be justified, as you simply didn't have the power anymore to cast them.

But nowadays you've got some heavy multi-classing, skills, feats and class abilities that you suddenly don't remember anymore? But other parts of your memory aren't affected? Give me a break?

I'd say that it was a crock even back in the days, just a mediocre tool to get players scared about one of the things they valued mostly. But in current 3E incarnations, the rules side is just too troublesome.

Throw that motherfucker in the legacy bin.

I agree with you. As a DM, I NEVER used level drain in my games. It always felt wrong to me.

Me As DM: "The vampire bitch-slaps you! You permanently lose 2 levels. :haw:
Player: What?! I thought vampires drained blood! :mad:
Me As DM: Not these vampires. :hehe:

I know it sounds lame if I say level-draining sounds "video-gamey" to me, but it does. I hate it when people use that argument to disparage 3e, but it honestly felt "video-gamey" in AD&D as well. I like my undead to be more subtle and mysterious....:cool:

I agree. They're a direct attack on the central mechanic of character progression. It's not even like they're evocative or flavourful-- it's nothing more than a nonsensical deletion of an abstract guage that's of critical importance to gameplay.

My traditional workaround was to make the effects temporary. That way the monsters who wielded it still had bite, but the players were only fucked for a day or so. It worked quite well in shifting the emphasis of a dungeon bash from high-octane action adventure to survival horror for a while.

I always thought that level drain was ridiculously bad concept.

I never, ever, use the rules as written.

Once in a while, I'll use a level drain creature that causes temporary level drain ( for a few hours or a day), but never permanent. Even so, the logistics of figuring out what level drain actually does are too time consuming for me to use during play, and a general handwave usually works better (OK, you're a -4 to all actions until you receive healing or get a good night's sleep).

Indeed they do. But the threat of them does not.

I loved it. It could be used for dickery, but when used correctly, it presented an awesome challenge to get around.

Level Drains aren't permanent in the current version of D&D. You just get a restoration and it's all good.

By the time your'e in a position to get level-drained, your'e also in a position to afford the cure for a level-drain.

I never had a problem with level drain, neither as a player or DM. In fact I thought it ratcheted up the tension, when a level drainer made the scene the players got together and upped their game, always made for fun memorable fights.
In the current edition they've defanged it too much, , making too easy get around I think, we had some great games trying to restore drained characters back in the day, but even then, things always get tenser and more exciting when a level drainer shows up.

Quote from: Abyssal MawBy the time your'e in a position to get level-drained, your'e also in a position to afford the cure for a level-drain.

This doesn't really change anything, even if it were universally true.
The concept itself remains as silly and cumbersome as before. You still forgot how to be a 1st level Wizard who's able to scribe scrolls and jump a little better, suddenly remembering that doesn't make it any better.

It's meta-scary to players, that's the whole reason behind this rule. Less scary than permanent ability drains, which would be something modelling the effects of some of the monsters better.

At least no one started with "But Frodo!" yet...

Sosthenes is right when he calls it "meta-scary". I often found my players were more afraid of level drainers in Basic/Expert D&D than they were of permanent character death. Dying in a sword fight was considered to be a bitch, but part and parcel of what the characters (and more importantly the players) had signed up for. Permanent level depletion on the other hand... let's just say there's something fundamentally wrong about an opponent whose attacks transcend the setting to strike at the games infrastructure. My players really disliked it, claiming that it whiffed of "cheating" at the design level. I was inclined to agree.

Quote from: SosthenesBut nowadays you've got some heavy multi-classing, skills, feats and class abilities that you suddenly don't remember anymore? But other parts of your memory aren't affected? Give me a break?

Conceptually, it kinda make sense.  Imagine that a bit of your soul is sucked away so you're just not as powerful as you once were.  Literature occasionally describes monsters having this sort of effect.

In terms of mechanics and playing, it sucks.  Losing a level can affect a dozen or more numbers in a minor way.  Skill, feats, BAB, class abilities, and saves all might have to be adjusted until you can be cured.

Quote from: DrewPermanent level depletion on the other hand... let's just say there's something fundamentally wrong about an opponent whose attacks transcend the setting to strike at the games infrastructure.

This is very well-stated.

I, personally, much prefer ability drain than level drain.

Speaking of...  I kinda hate the Enervation spell, too.  Not because it's too tough to manage, but because it's more or less a one-easy-hit, no-save Beam of Impotence for spellcasters.

-O

Quote from: NicephorusConceptually, it kinda make sense.  Imagine that a bit of your soul is sucked away so you're just not as powerful as you once were.  Literature occasionally describes monsters having this sort of effect.

I always thought about the barrow-wights, too. But equating level with soul just sounds wrong to me. For once, even in OD&D, it's just to easy to get back. Fall off the horse, get back on again. Some "humanity" statistic like some cyberpunk or horror games have would probably be better suited for those kinds of ghouls and ghasts.
Ability drain in RuneQuest was rather decent for that, as the game system gave you the opportunity of earning it back. If I remember correctly, the example character in RQ3 went through something like that. Cormac?

Quote from: DrewSosthenes is right when he calls it "meta-scary". I often found my players were more afraid of level drainers in Basic/Expert D&D than they were of permanent character death. Dying in a sword fight was considered to be a bitch, but part and parcel of what the characters (and more importantly the players) had signed up for. Permanent level depletion on the other hand... let's just say there's something fundamentally wrong about an opponent whose attacks transcend the setting to strike at the games infrastructure. My players really disliked it, claiming that it whiffed of "cheating" at the design level. I was inclined to agree.

I look at level drain the same way I look at "save vs. death" when used on PCs.  

I don't mind a little friendly competitive spirit between the players and the GM, but both of those just serve as a reminder that the GM holds all the cards in the end.

It feels cheap, an actual mechanical equivalent to "Rocks fall, everyone dies."

Could there be better ways to handle level draining? For sure.

Is it still a really great concept? My feeling is yes, absolutely.

Sadly in its current version its worthless. No one is scared of level drainers in 3.x.

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