I know it has been beat to death, but I want to talk about it because I feel like it is related to the cleric issue, and it has to do with designing a game world where the power level's of the NPCs are consistent.
One of the main problems for me is the warrior, lets just start there. In real life, how many men have you met that can beat 3-4 other trained and armed men in a fight? I can think of a lot of strong and aggressive people I've known that can beat up 3-4 regular joes, but I can only think of one or two people, ever, that could actually walk away from a 1 on 4 fight with say, army infantry. In d&d, that would make them about 2nd level.
So in the real world, I've known a lot of 0 levels people, some first level, and maybe one or two 2nd level people. No one higher.
If you put movies into it, in my opinion, guys like William Wallace, Leonidas, The Spaniard from Gladiator, Judge Dread, Jason Borne, whoever, all those guys are about 5th level. You don't see too much about people more powerful than that.
In D&D, it is hard has hell to make an appropriate world because the huge jumps in power you get over the first few levels drive the abilities of the player characters to superhuman proportions very, very quickly. Compare a 5th level wizards invocations to the X-Men's powers and you can catch my drift.
So either your game world is made up of 1st level people almost completely, and a mid level group of player characters can walk all over it, or it is made up of relative super humans, and the 1st level hoplite farmers that make up the bulk of a Greek type world are aware that half the people they know are so good at fighting that they can smash ogres. They would know that in any group of 100 of them going into battle, 12 of them are worth the whole rest of the group. Statistically, those 12 would be the only people alive after the first round of combat and they would probably know it.
Another angle is one that a buddy of mine goes by. He gives massive class levels to everyone. Your typical 25 year old Spartan is no less than 5th level. Same with your Roman legionnaire. A centurion is about 9th level. The people in charge of a legion of 5000 are almost always going to be at least 15th.
In this setting, there is almost no point in being a first level adventurer. What the fuck is your 1st level fighters going to do? There would be no point in even having a character below 5th because literally anyone could go do his job better if they had the gumption. In that setting, the only thing that separates a PC from an NPC is the willingness to go help, but never the ability. I guess that has its own appeal.
How do you do it?
For D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder games, I think the solution for this is something along the lines of what E6 does. While characters continue to earn points to buy feats beyond level six, they are effectively at the top of their profession once level six is achieved. Their BAB, Saves, Hit Points, and other class features are not going to change (except through feats) after that.
Quote from: Cranewings;413120How do you do it?
Speaking about 3.5/Pathfinder specifically, here.
Mostly on a case by case basis, according to the particular background of the NPC concerned. I basically assume that people with PC class levels have some adventuring experience of one type or another. Otherwise they have NPC class levels (Expert, Adept and so on). Adventurers are relatively few and far between, unless we are in huge hubs of adventure of the game world (cities with lots of adventuring opportunities, jobs of hire, Ptolus that sits right on top of a huge dungeon complex that attracts all sorts of delvers from all kinds of areas of the Tarsis Empire, etc).
NPC experience rarely goes beyond 5th level. At this level, you are an expert, veteran in your field. Beyond 5th level you become a true phenomenon. Beyond 10th level and you are a legend in your field with great reknown, possibly across frontiers. Beyond 15th and you're one of the most incredible individuals in the world - virtually impossible to attain (Ptolus is again a particular situation in this case, since the city is a D&D microcosm of its own. There is one 20th level NPC of each character class in the city, for instance, and they are generally very famous in town).
There might be a relationship between the rank of somebody in say, the military, and his level, but not always. Levels are based to me on individual experiences, not on titles. So it is possible to meet a 1st level Noble Duke, or a 5th level Town Guard, depending on the situations.
Cranewings,
Welcome to what I was wrestling with 20-odd years ago that forced me away from d&d, the power curve issues, proximate and long-term.
And BTW, you didn't even TOUCH the magic issue. Which multiplies everything you spoke about.
And understamd, these issues you are coming up with are the reasons that RQ and other lower-power scale (known as 'gritty' in our particular lexicon) games came about.
How do I do it, to answer the exact question? I created a skill based set of rules, where there is consistent and regular growth of skills, combat and non combat, but where weapons/magic/etc do a lot of damage. I have a 16 year Played PC with 52 HP, and that is the most for a PC in the game. The Highest NPC HP I have is 71. Average starting HP for a fighting type seems around 12, average HP for a town guard is the same.
A War hammer does 3d6+20/d4 damage (My religion hates bell curves), and there is a 7% critical chance. So without armor to protect, you can see the damage potential. Armor is absolutely essesntial for survival in combat in GuildSchool.
Larger picture, and before I go off on a complete tangent, D&D plain and simple does a poor job accounting for what you want. It is great game to play, fast and addictive, great for epic level stuff, etc. But you are wandering into areas it does poorly, and into the countryside that has birthed a lot of other variant games.
I don't think guys who can take out 10 or more opponents are unrealistic. A SAS soldier is rated at about 8 regular soldiers, I think.
A very second hand story I've never been able to chase up (my dad swears its true -read it in a Penthouse years ago I think) was that there was once a female gladiator who took on and killed 20 Praetorian guard, retired and married a senator, went back to the arena but was eventually killed by another female gladiator. I've never been able to track this one down, though.
I knew a gamer who was a Nth degree black belt of tae kwon do (or similar martial art, can't be sure). The guy had done the European championships. For real. And he was good guy too, sweet and all. Anyway. The guy was actually forbidden by Law to use his martial techniques if he ever became involved in a street fight or some such. In France, that would have been like using disproportionate weaponry opposed to the actual threat a thug with a knife would have represented to him. It always made me laugh my ass off: the guy was so good he was actually forbidden to use his skills in real life.
Quote from: LordVreeg;413154A War hammer does 3d6+20/d4 damage (My religion hates bell curves), and there is a 7% critical chance.
Is that 3d6+20 divided by 1d4?
Quote from: CRKrueger;413174Is that 3d6+20 divided by 1d4?
yes. you have it.
I've always thought about this as a self-solving problem.
Why don't high level characters run around beating the shit out of those-who-are-lesser? They do!
It's just that they are preyed on by equal or higher level characters as well!
For instance, your 5th level wizard has 5th level wizard problems. You get to be powerful, and the folk you deal with changes. Mo' money, mo' problems.
A 5th level fighter can fend off all those guys, if they are just nerds. But the world is filled with awesome people. The people you interact with are generally in your power band, due to the place / time of your existence.
That same fighter picks a fight with all those guys, and one of them happens to also be 5th level. People tend to be quite varied.
Quote from: Blackhand;413177Why don't high level characters run around beating the shit out of those-who-are-lesser? They do!
That's right, they do. They also take care of each other's plans and conspiracies. Take care of their own. Et cetera. The PCs just don't get to be near these guys all the time to check out what they're doing. In Ptolus, the Iron Mage's (20th level Wizard) goals are never truly understood. He might pop up and just kill a guy in an inn to depart immediately. Whether he aborted some possible future by killing the guy, or knew of something dark about this completely innocuous citizen or whatnot, nobody knows. Dorant Khatru (20th level Fighter) is head of House Khatru in Ptolus. He is busy defending his family's holdings; he is part of the Ptolus Assembly which advises the Commissar and enacts some of the city's policies, is one of the Twelve Commanders serving as the security advisors and lieutenants to the Commissar, and so on, so forth.
Point is, these powerful individuals have their hands full. Pretty much all the time.
Quote from: Benoist;413171I knew a gamer who was a Nth degree black belt of tae kwon do (or similar martial art, can't be sure). The guy had done the European championships. For real. And he was good guy too, sweet and all. Anyway. The guy was actually forbidden by Law to use his martial techniques if he ever became involved in a street fight or some such. In France, that would have been like using disproportionate weaponry opposed to the actual threat a thug with a knife would have represented to him. It always made me laugh my ass off: the guy was so good he was actually forbidden to use his skills in real life.
I don't doubt your friend is really sweet. I've done martial arts my whole adult life and met people who are really good.
I'm just saying that a thug with a knife probably has 8 hp, an ac of 11, and deals 1d4+1damage. If your friend is a second level fighter with 18 hit points, improved unarmed strike, and power attack, he probably deals 1d4+4 and can easily smash this guy. Being higher than 2nd level is really hard in the real world.
Or what was said about the SAS, sure each one is worth 8 guys, but how much of that is better equipment and being on the attack. Put that same guy on the street and have 8 guys attack him, see how he does. Give him the benefit of the doubt and say he is 3rd level. He is really dangerous, and that is about peak human.
I think I'll look up Rune Quest, I've never known anyone toplay it, but I bet Vreg has good taste.
Anyone ever wonder if maybe we over-analyze some of this shit?
are you having fun?
How much detail do you really need worked out?
- Ed C.
Quote from: Cranewings;413181I think I'll look up Rune Quest, I've never known anyone toplay it, but I bet Vreg has good taste.
RuneQuest is good my friend. Trust Vreeg's tastes on this one. ;)
Quote from: Cranewings;413181I think I'll look up Rune Quest, I've never known anyone toplay it, but I bet Vreg has good taste.
You're playing Openquest right now :p OQ is a stripped down version of RQ.
I would add my concordance to Benoist and Vreeg here. RQ and its variants are some of the finest fantasy games ever made, IMHO.
I dig the game we are playing with open quest, does Rune Quest allow more specialized characters, characters without magic?
Quote from: Cranewings;413203I dig the game we are playing with open quest, does Rune Quest allow more specialized characters, characters without magic?
It's doable in all RQ variants, though the baseline assumption is relatively common magic. All you do is say "No battle magic" and leave out that step of character creation. Sorcerers and priests can still get their stuff if they want, but no one else will have magic.
Personally, I don't do it at all. D&D just seems not meant to be used for world simulation. There are games that can easily do this, but D&D is not one of them.
As Koltar suggested, I just ignore this stuff, when I run D&D.
Quote from: Cranewings;413120How do you do it?
In all honesty, I keep in mind that this is a game and within that context it all makes sense. I know that may seem like a cop-out, but that is how I deal with it.
Quote from: jeff37923;413219In all honesty, I keep in mind that this is a game and within that context it all makes sense. I know that may seem like a cop-out, but that is how I deal with it.
Quote from: KoltarAnyone ever wonder if maybe we over-analyze some of this shit?
are you having fun?
How much detail do you really need worked out?
I have two answers here, maybe three.
And they need to be prefaced with the fact that the Rule of Fun is paramount. SO I am not arguing that. We've all played in some games that were run by smart folk who were just lousy GMs, and so the ability to analyze a game does not make it better automatically.
But I will admit that I enjoy the analysis to some degree. Vreeg's First Rule came about when it dawned on my (after trying to shoehorn/kitbash a system to match a setting and game) that different rulesets did different things better and worse, and were better suited to certain types of games (and gamers, for that matter).
The corrollaries are obvious, so I now look through this lens at all setting/game ruleset matchups. Doesn't mean a game is not fun, however, if the mashup is different. 'A good GM makes a good game' is still Rule #1.
Secondly, it depends on the length and seriousness of the game. The 'physics engine dissonance' that I worry about is pretty immaterial in a one-shot or very short group of games. The less the setting is fleshed out and the less time the group has to get into a group-mindset/schemata, the less dissonance.
My main campaign is about to turn 27 years old next month, with 2 live groups and 2 IRC groups, as well as a bunch of older characters on what we call, "Remote Control". I have 3 orignal players from the first groups...27 year players. For those who want a longer campaign, or wonder about what makes campaigns sputter out, there are a lot of answers. But I believe that one of the reasons that has allowed this to go on so long (aside from pure shit luck and other social attributes) is that the ruleset has been built specifically to support this setting and the play style we are looking for.
So is it over analysis? Maybe. But I enjoy the game, I enjoy the overview and the give and take, and I stand by the fact that the longer/deeper the game you want to play, the more the 'Physics Engine Dissonance" matters.