"You do not truly know someone until you fight them." -Sereph, The Matrix Reloaded

For our next D&D session I'm considering letting the players know the AC and Hit Points of monsters once they've engaged them in combat, rather than keeping that as secret info "behind the screen".  I'm also thinking of letting them know the AC and Hit Points of their Retainers once they fought alongside them in combat as well.

I can't think of any good reasons not to share this info (but maybe you can).

What do you think the effects of doing so would be on our game?  Would you do something like this?

I think a "to hit" number is okay (after somebody lands a hit), but hit points are (IMO) better conveyed as description than as a number. The players should never know for certain that the next hit is going to bring down a foe. It will impact their decision making. Just my opinion, though.

Quote from: Aos;291841The players should never know for certain that the next hit is going to bring down a foe. It will impact their decision making.

Why do you think it will impact their decision making in a negative way, rather than a positive one?

I don't reveal AC or HP to players.  If they ask what armor their foe is wearing, I'll describe it.  If they ask how many HP their foe has, I'll describe their foe's condition.

A concrete knowledge of these stats, though, can lead to metagamey action in a place where I don't want metagamey action.

I did experiment once with not revealing even the PCs' hit points to my players.  It actually worked out very well; they were very cautious about entering combat as they could never be sure exactly how close their characters were to death.  Not sure why I abandoned it; I think I needed to pare down my bookkeeping a bit at the time (I was running 2e with a few add-on books and 30+ pages of house rules).

(edit: damn I type slow; 2 posts before I finished this one!)

Quote from: KenHRIf they ask what armor their foe is wearing, I'll describe it. If they ask how many HP their foe has, I'll describe their foe's condition.

You're giving them the info though - just parsing it through descriptive language rather than being more clear with the actual numbers.

Quote from: KenHRA concrete knowledge of these stats, though, can lead to metagamey action in a place where I don't want metagamey action.

This is what I'm wondering about - how will the players use this info in game and if you think it's a bad thing I'm interesting in hearing what you think will happen.

Agreed it gets too metagamy. The whole hey there are 4 of them on less than 5 hps just do that area effect spell that does 5 damage to all enemies within 3 squares.

Gosh I tried to make that 4E ish but I still ended up using the word spell, tsk , tsk

You're absolutely right: descriptive language is still giving the player info.  However, the info is far more fuzzy and subjective than just giving them the numbers.  It's the kind and quality of info they'd be getting if they were there hacking away at the beastie (more or less).

I guess I'm coming at it from, to use a term, an immersionist perspective.  I want players to make decisions based on the situation, not on the numbers.

I do understand that, these being games, the numbers are a large part of the situation.  And I know it's indulging in (to use another far more irritating term) illusionism to an extent when going for description over numbers.  However, for me and every player with whom I've ever had the privilege of sharing a table, that's precisely the draw of the game.

The numbers are needed to run the game, but we like to obscure them as much as possible for the sake of atmosphere.

"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
- Dave Arneson

Quote from: jibbajibbaThe whole hey there are 4 of them on less than 5 hps just do that area effect spell that does 5 damage to all enemies within 3 squares.

We don't use a battlemat, so all positions are abstracted.  Other than casting sleep (HD matter, not HP) or throwing flaming oil, they don't really have area of effect options.  I can see where players might start metagaming more at higher levels with more spells... but then again they already do that.

Quote from: KenHRThe numbers are needed to run the game, but we like to obscure them as much as possible for the sake of atmosphere.

Yes, this is one of the areas where I was unsure of the effect on the game.

Although the players are already dealing with numbers for: PC hit points, AC, weapon damage, and to-hit -- so numbers are already a big part of the mix.

You get all the numbers up-front in a Fighting Fantasy or Solitaire D&D module, and I'm not convinced that hiding that info actually contributes to the immersion.  Certainly if your character spent a minute of melee combat with an enemy they'd have a better appraisal of that enemies strength / weakness in combat than the inevitably vague description I'd probably be offering the player at the table.

If the players knew some of the monsters had higher hit points - maybe they would be more inclined to retreat?  If they knew some of their retainers were better in combat than others, maybe they'd position them differently in the marching order?

Quote from: RandallS;291850"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
- Dave Arneson

Dave is awesome... but his approach to tabletop games might not be the right fit for my group.

I finally found the example of how Dave checked for "surprise":

QuoteAt this point Dave took us into the laundry area of the basement, telling us he wanted to see what we would do. He had us line up in our marching order. Then he turned off the lights saying a sudden wind had blown out our torches. Then we heard some screaming. We generally scattered as best we could. He turned on the lights looked at what we had done and then went back to the other room, telling us that a black blob (like the thing in the classic Japanese horror movie "The Blob" from the 1950's) had killed one of the NPCs who ran into it. We soon found that our weapons dissolving when we struck it. Then we got some torches relit and found that we could fight it with fire. Eventually we killed it losing a couple more men in the process.

:rotfl:

That's awesome... but not something I'm going to emulate.

Quote from: Stuart;291840"You do not truly know someone until you fight them." -Sereph, The Matrix Reloaded

All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him....
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
- Sun Tzu

Quote from: Stuart;291851You get all the numbers up-front in a Fighting Fantasy or Solitaire D&D module, and I'm not convinced that hiding that info actually contributes to the immersion.  Certainly if your character spent a minute of melee combat with an enemy they'd have a better appraisal of that enemies strength / weakness in combat than the inevitably vague description I'd probably be offering the player at the table.

I've never found immersion in Fighting Fantasy books (awesome as they are!) or Solo modules.

I'm perfectly happy to relate any info regarding how the PC perceives the skill/condition of their opponent(s).  But players rarely ask.  So there's one area where providing the numbers up-front might be more (dare I say it?) "realistic" in some ways than hiding them.

I've run games with full open information and other games without.  All I know is, in my experience, hiding the information created a different atmosphere around the table that I preferred.

Quote from: Stuart;291851If the players knew some of the monsters had higher hit points - maybe they would be more inclined to retreat?  If they knew some of their retainers were better in combat than others, maybe they'd position them differently in the marching order?

They can infer that from observation, even before combat starts.  For example, guys with higher hit points tend to look big, nasty and very competent.

During combat, the players know their hit rolls and how much damage they're doing with their weapons.  Information on how tough their enemies are can be very easily derived from that.  If they've hit a gobbie three times in a row and did max damage with their long swords every time and the monster's still standing...well, they know they're dealing with a tough customer.

I think that aspect is a wash either way.

Quote from: KenHR;291858I've never found immersion in Fighting Fantasy books (awesome as they are!) or Solo modules.

My experience is that not so much the Solo modules, but Fighting Fantasy and Choose Your Own Adventures have that "You're In the Story" quality that books in general have to offer.  Not so much during combat, because there's no added description of what's going on - but when you encounter certain monsters and you see their stat block, it makes the difference between "yeah, okay" and "OMG RUN!"

Stuart, run the expirament and see how your groups likes the change. That is probably the best suggestion I can offer because there are too many factors involved (mostly around not knowing your own players or having experienced your own GM style).

For me, I've found that with most groups that wrecks the suspension of disbelief that I was trying to maintain and causes the action to become too metagamey. For a few groups, it doesn't affect it all, but this is definitely a case where Your Mileage May Vary.

Quote from: jeff37923;291863mostly around not knowing your own players or having experienced your own GM style

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