So, for my Pulp game, I'm including vehicles in the equipment.
I'm of course including: Type, AC, Speed, Cost.
But I started thinking...
Should the vehicle count as armor for the occupants? I mean it might be easier to hit a sedan than you but the bullet might be stoped or deviate and not hit you.
Also, should the speed be a variable?
What about maneuverability?
Due to the time period I'm thinking of speeds from 30 to 120 miles per hour for land vehicles, would this be okay even for a roadster/sport car?
Once this is settled I'll build a table for the bonus/penalization due to SIZ (Size), AC & MAN (maneuverability).
Edited to add:
This of course is for non bullet proof vehicles
i started to think about this when looking over the rules for vehicles in Cyberpunk Red.
I came to the conclusion that while you might hit the CAR, in all likelyhood a bullet would just hit nothing important but air and pass through spending a minimum of its energy and just make a neat hole, doing 1 pt of damage.
If you want to truly stop a vehicle with a regular gun, you need to aim for the Engine, the Wheels or the Driver. All which counts as shots at a specific target location.
I guess you could make a hit location chart, but a regular car would be maybe 40% you hit something vulnerable and 60% it pass through harmlessly.
Of course, the more advanced technolgy of the vehicle, more parts could be considered vulnerable, A WW1 fight is made of string and canvas, with a engine and a driver. Most of it is just air.
With WW2 you could add fuel tanks in the wings but a hit there might only limit the range.
For modern jets I dont know if there is anwywhere you can hit it that doesnt fuck something important up if it wasnt for redundant systems.
But those things are a little outside of what you're asking for.
Should vehicle count as armor? Yes, unless it hits somewhere it doesnt protect, like the windows. But a shot through the car door might at least stop a little bit of damage if it hits a driver or passenger.
I cant tell what you mean by speed being a variable, but if you ask if it can be a dice rather than a number, yes. A car with a speed of D8 would have the same top speed as a car with D6+2, but the latter would have better acceleration since it has a higher average result.
I dont know why the same reasoning couldnt be used to simulate maneuverability as well. A truck would have d4, a car d6-d8, a sports car d10-d12.
And a tank would have d20 because it can spin in place by having the thread go in different directions
A quick google regarding speed of 1930s car yield the result that the fastest sports car in 1930s where the Duesenberg SJ with 140mph so that sounds about right.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 25, 2021, 08:05:16 PM
i started to think about this when looking over the rules for vehicles in Cyberpunk Red.
I came to the conclusion that while you might hit the CAR, in all likelyhood a bullet would just hit nothing important but air and pass through spending a minimum of its energy and just make a neat hole, doing 1 pt of damage.
If you want to truly stop a vehicle with a regular gun, you need to aim for the Engine, the Wheels or the Driver. All which counts as shots at a specific target location.
I guess you could make a hit location chart, but a regular car would be maybe 40% you hit something vulnerable and 60% it pass through harmlessly.
Of course, the more advanced technolgy of the vehicle, more parts could be considered vulnerable, A WW1 fight is made of string and canvas, with a engine and a driver. Most of it is just air.
With WW2 you could add fuel tanks in the wings but a hit there might only limit the range.
For modern jets I dont know if there is anwywhere you can hit it that doesnt fuck something important up if it wasnt for redundant systems.
But those things are a little outside of what you're asking for.
Should vehicle count as armor? Yes, unless it hits somewhere it doesnt protect, like the windows. But a shot through the car door might at least stop a little bit of damage if it hits a driver or passenger.
I cant tell what you mean by speed being a variable, but if you ask if it can be a dice rather than a number, yes. A car with a speed of D8 would have the same top speed as a car with D6+2, but the latter would have better acceleration since it has a higher average result.
I dont know why the same reasoning couldnt be used to simulate maneuverability as well. A truck would have d4, a car d6-d8, a sports car d10-d12.
And a tank would have d20 because it can spin in place by having the thread go in different directions
A quick google regarding speed of 1930s car yield the result that the fastest sports car in 1930s where the Duesenberg SJ with 140mph so that sounds about right.
By speed/maneuverability being a variable I meant to the AC of the vehicle and it's occupants. As in it gives a bonus or penalty to being hit.
Say you're in a car going at 100MH, you're swerving all over the highway, you already got +1/-1 to your AC from the car's body, should you also get something from the speed and the car moving all over the place from left to right? My instinct tells me yes, what do you think?
I'm going with the size of the vehicle makes it easier to hit, thanks for that approx of what you hit on a vehicle, hadn't thought of that. So lets say you start with a roll of =/< 40% to stop the vehicle, then you add/substract bonus/penalties from the size, speed and maneuverability and what the driver is doing and if the shooter is aiming (or trying to). Each gives you a +/- 5% but I will let it to the GM to judge on the spot, because fuck trying to do those tables.
Thanks, for the google-fu, that was my next step.
And thus Car Wars was invented... heh-heh.
Have a look at Autoduel Champions if you have not yet. Its a sort of conversion of gurps Autoduel to fit the Champions system.
If we are talking about just cars then unless moving really fast they tend to be fairly easy to target. But as was noted above. Hitting the car isnt the task. Its hitting something vital. Engine or wheels if trying to stop just the car. Or driver/passengers too if trying to hit them as well. and there is near always the chance of that anyhow.
Speed will make hitting a little harder. But I suspect looking up some military notes will tell better.
I can tell you that hitting things like aeroplanes from aeroplanes is anything but easy.
I think Palladium had the right idea that past a certain point small arms fire will have little to no effect on military grade vehicles.
Quote from: Omega on April 25, 2021, 10:54:03 PM
And thus Car Wars was invented... heh-heh.
Have a look at Autoduel Champions if you have not yet. Its a sort of conversion of gurps Autoduel to fit the Champions system.
If we are talking about just cars then unless moving really fast they tend to be fairly easy to target. But as was noted above. Hitting the car isnt the task. Its hitting something vital. Engine or wheels if trying to stop just the car. Or driver/passengers too if trying to hit them as well. and there is near always the chance of that anyhow.
Speed will make hitting a little harder. But I suspect looking up some military notes will tell better.
I can tell you that hitting things like aeroplanes from aeroplanes is anything but easy.
I think Palladium had the right idea that past a certain point small arms fire will have little to no effect on military grade vehicles.
LOL, sorta, kinda but not quite, I'm thinking that in a Pulp setting vehicle chases are innevitable, and so is firing into moving vehicles, so, besides the chase rules (that I still have to come with something I really like) I need to sort out the chances of bullets doing damage to both the vehicle and the ppl inside.
I'm not including military vehicles, I don't think those are really neccesary, but will include price and benefits of bullet proof armor for your vehicle.
Unless popular demand makes me include SOME military vehicles that is.
As for small arms, my guess would be a .22 has almost zero chance of stoping the vehicle unless it hits the tires, radiator or a hose. Need to check the derringer, see what caliber it was and since it's really short I'm guessing it doesn't hit/pierce the vehicle unles in short range?
But, would a .22 revolver pierce the vehicle? Enough to hit the ppl inside? Not through a window?
Being that here in México we don't own guns my knowledge of such things comes from movies, so not really accurate, but could be good for making the game like the pulp novels tho.
30s era vehicles are metal and heavy glass. They gave good protection from pistol rounds. The primary reason for the development of the .357 magnum was because the .38 and .45 were not powerful enough to penetrate.
.22 is too light and going to bounce right off unless maybe penetrating a window and that brings up bullet deflection. Heavier bullets are deflected less by penetrating objects. Unless you are going for a really granular system I wouldn't worry about deflection and just treat the whole vehicle as a unit.
Generally speaking they were looking for 1000 fps muzzle velocity to penetrate cars. You should be able to look up whatever early 20th century firearm you want and find the ammo specs. If it is less than the speed barrier then just class it as completely ineffective.
Then just fine tune for open top vehicles like roadsters or shooting out tires. (some sort of to hit modifier)
Quote from: moonsweeper on April 25, 2021, 11:30:06 PM
30s era vehicles are metal and heavy glass. They gave good protection from pistol rounds. The primary reason for the development of the .357 magnum was because the .38 and .45 were not powerful enough to penetrate.
.22 is too light and going to bounce right off unless maybe penetrating a window and that brings up bullet deflection. Heavier bullets are deflected less by penetrating objects. Unless you are going for a really granular system I wouldn't worry about deflection and just treat the whole vehicle as a unit.
Generally speaking they were looking for 1000 fps muzzle velocity to penetrate cars. You should be able to look up whatever early 20th century firearm you want and find the ammo specs. If it is less than the speed barrier then just class it as completely ineffective.
Then just fine tune for open top vehicles like roadsters or shooting out tires. (some sort of to hit modifier)
As a total ignoramus regarding firearms I need to ask this: How sure are you of that? I'm getting very diferent opinions from other people.
For the gun nut, if you're out by a grain of powder it's not good enough.
For the combat veteran, if you don't model battlefield psychology it's not good enough
For the action movie fan, if you can be killed by a bullet or mooks can't it's not good enough.
Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 11:45:32 PM
For the gun nut, if you're out by a grain of powder it's not good enough.
For the combat veteran, if you don't model battlefield psychology it's not good enough
For the action movie fan, if you can be killed by a bullet or mooks can't it's not good enough.
LOL, that's correct, which is why I want the more accurate info to do whatever I damn well please and whoever likes it good and whoever doesn't good too.
I'm aiming for a good enough simulation from my POV. Which I'm sure won't be good enough for most, but you can't please everybody so I'm okay with that.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 11:44:48 PM
As a total ignoramus regarding firearms I need to ask this: How sure are you of that? I'm getting very different opinions from other people.
I once told Doc Sammy that I sent him some firearms info in a PM because OSR arguments are nothing compared to firearms arguments. ;D ;D ;D
Most people have emotional ties to one round or another and that can clutter stuff up.
One thing to watch out for is using modern velocities.
Muzzle velocities increased dramatically after WWII.
Since barrel length affects muzzle velocity, handguns specifically were really improved with modern powders.
There is a reason the cops used BARs when they ambushed Bonnie and Clyde...
Quote from: moonsweeper on April 26, 2021, 12:04:03 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 11:44:48 PM
As a total ignoramus regarding firearms I need to ask this: How sure are you of that? I'm getting very different opinions from other people.
I once told Doc Sammy that I sent him some firearms info in a PM because OSR arguments are nothing compared to firearms arguments. ;D ;D ;D
Most people have emotional ties to one round or another and that can clutter stuff up.
One thing to watch out for is using modern velocities.
Muzzle velocities increased dramatically after WWII.
Since barrel length affects muzzle velocity, handguns specifically were really improved with modern powders.
There is a reason the cops used BARs when they ambushed Bonnie and Clyde...
Well, if it's not too much to ask, would you send me that info? It would help me a lot in the making of the game.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 08:41:36 PM
By speed/maneuverability being a variable I meant to the AC of the vehicle and it's occupants. As in it gives a bonus or penalty to being hit.
Say you're in a car going at 100MH, you're swerving all over the highway, you already got +1/-1 to your AC from the car's body, should you also get something from the speed and the car moving all over the place from left to right? My instinct tells me yes, what do you think?
I'm going with the size of the vehicle makes it easier to hit, thanks for that approx of what you hit on a vehicle, hadn't thought of that. So lets say you start with a roll of =/< 40% to stop the vehicle, then you add/substract bonus/penalties from the size, speed and maneuverability and what the driver is doing and if the shooter is aiming (or trying to). Each gives you a +/- 5% but I will let it to the GM to judge on the spot, because fuck trying to do those tables.
Oh I see. Yes. I think so.
In fact, when I made my own vehicle combat house rules for Star wars D20 the players announced the speed they were going at and then they rolled against a difficulty of twice that speed. So faster=harder maneuver.
But speed also added to the AC of their craft. So faster=harder to be hit
A Xwing at speed of 7 would roll at a difficulty of 14 and add +7 to its AC while the Tie fighter at speed 8 would roll at difficulty 16 and increase AC by +8
lastly, simply comparing speed at the end of turn decided if the two fighters moved closer or more apart.
As for maneuverability, in my rules it was used more to decide if the other ship was in front of your forward facing lasers and you could shoot or if the other guy was to your side or your rear in which case you might need turrets.
that would not suit a pulpgame with characters leaning out of windows with tommy guns so I think maneuver would be better as a fixed bonus to driving rolls. However, a driving roll for evasive maneuvers might give a small dodge bonus for that round, I guess.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 26, 2021, 02:42:33 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 08:41:36 PM
By speed/maneuverability being a variable I meant to the AC of the vehicle and it's occupants. As in it gives a bonus or penalty to being hit.
Say you're in a car going at 100MH, you're swerving all over the highway, you already got +1/-1 to your AC from the car's body, should you also get something from the speed and the car moving all over the place from left to right? My instinct tells me yes, what do you think?
I'm going with the size of the vehicle makes it easier to hit, thanks for that approx of what you hit on a vehicle, hadn't thought of that. So lets say you start with a roll of =/< 40% to stop the vehicle, then you add/substract bonus/penalties from the size, speed and maneuverability and what the driver is doing and if the shooter is aiming (or trying to). Each gives you a +/- 5% but I will let it to the GM to judge on the spot, because fuck trying to do those tables.
Oh I see. Yes. I think so.
In fact, when I made my own vehicle combat house rules for Star wars D20 the players announced the speed they were going at and then they rolled against a difficulty of twice that speed. So faster=harder maneuver.
But speed also added to the AC of their craft. So faster=harder to be hit
A Xwing at speed of 7 would roll at a difficulty of 14 and add +7 to its AC while the Tie fighter at speed 8 would roll at difficulty 16 and increase AC by +8
lastly, simply comparing speed at the end of turn decided if the two fighters moved closer or more apart.
As for maneuverability, in my rules it was used more to decide if the other ship was in front of your forward facing lasers and you could shoot or if the other guy was to your side or your rear in which case you might need turrets.
that would not suit a pulpgame with characters leaning out of windows with tommy guns so I think maneuver would be better as a fixed bonus to driving rolls. However, a driving roll for evasive maneuvers might give a small dodge bonus for that round, I guess.
And if you got the skill or feat then you get a +1 to evasive driving.
Yeah, it's taking shape finally, thanks again.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 26, 2021, 02:42:33 AM
In fact, when I made my own vehicle combat house rules for Star wars D20 the players announced the speed they were going at and then they rolled against a difficulty of twice that speed. So faster=harder maneuver.
The original James Bond RPG did something similar. The speed a player chose to go would determine the difficulty of performing a maneuver. This would probably be the simplest system; having a base target number determined by your speed with a maneuvering and size modifier based on the specific vehicle.
One other thing the James Bond did was have a player's speed determine his initiative. So the faster character determined the pace of the chase. Speed was selected by the PCs and the GM secretly so there was a "push your luck" element to using them.
Of course, this is really just about vehicle vs vehicle chases. Using vehicles against a person on foot would be a different story (and, IMO, much more difficult to manage).
Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 26, 2021, 08:12:31 AM
Quote from: Wntrlnd on April 26, 2021, 02:42:33 AM
In fact, when I made my own vehicle combat house rules for Star wars D20 the players announced the speed they were going at and then they rolled against a difficulty of twice that speed. So faster=harder maneuver.
The original James Bond RPG did something similar. The speed a player chose to go would determine the difficulty of performing a maneuver. This would probably be the simplest system; having a base target number determined by your speed with a maneuvering and size modifier based on the specific vehicle.
One other thing the James Bond did was have a player's speed determine his initiative. So the faster character determined the pace of the chase. Speed was selected by the PCs and the GM secretly so there was a "push your luck" element to using them.
Of course, this is really just about vehicle vs vehicle chases. Using vehicles against a person on foot would be a different story (and, IMO, much more difficult to manage).
I actually own a copy of the James Bond system you're talking about
I always thought the most fun pulp-y vehicle combat rules were in Road Hogs (the old TMNT supplement). Once you start moving into Car Wars territory, you've got to decide how important these chases are to the game. You could always use Gaslands or Junkierdrome if they are that important but don't want to spend three hours figuring out a combat.
Quote from: Brad on April 26, 2021, 01:04:29 PM
I always thought the most fun pulp-y vehicle combat rules were in Road Hogs (the old TMNT supplement). Once you start moving into Car Wars territory, you've got to decide how important these chases are to the game. You could always use Gaslands or Junkierdrome if they are that important but don't want to spend three hours figuring out a combat.
Well thanks, now I need to see if I can afford to buy it to check it out. Way I figure it it's likely some campaigns will have some vehicle chase/fight but I don't want Car Wars/Gaslands/etc level of complexity. I want it fun, fast and Pulp-y.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 11:07:57 PM
LOL, sorta, kinda but not quite, I'm thinking that in a Pulp setting vehicle chases are innevitable, and so is firing into moving vehicles, so, besides the chase rules (that I still have to come with something I really like) I need to sort out the chances of bullets doing damage to both the vehicle and the ppl inside.
I'm not including military vehicles, I don't think those are really neccesary, but will include price and benefits of bullet proof armor for your vehicle.
Unless popular demand makes me include SOME military vehicles that is.
TSR's Indiana Jones RPG has some chase rules that might be worth looking at.
Star Frontiers has some pretty solid vehicular combat rules.
Been so long I have noooo idea now what, if any, rules TSR's MSH has for vehicles.
One to take a peek at, bemusingly enough, the Renegade Nuns on Wheels expansion for the Macho Women with Guns wargame.
As for military grade in pulp hero adventures. Actually that is often the go-to solution for a vehicle based villain. Armour the hell out of your vehicle or use some new invention to bulletproof it. Even the heroes do this. Sometimes to the point of being prof vs some military grade armaments.
Vehicle chases happened now and then but outside of serials high speed gunfights tended to be few in the actual books far as ever saw unless the hero or villain were more vehicle based than man-to-man. Or stitched out alot as need presented. The various iterations of the Rocket Man serial for example. Fist fights > gun fights > car fights > rocketship fights.
Quote from: Omega on April 26, 2021, 05:57:18 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 11:07:57 PM
LOL, sorta, kinda but not quite, I'm thinking that in a Pulp setting vehicle chases are innevitable, and so is firing into moving vehicles, so, besides the chase rules (that I still have to come with something I really like) I need to sort out the chances of bullets doing damage to both the vehicle and the ppl inside.
I'm not including military vehicles, I don't think those are really neccesary, but will include price and benefits of bullet proof armor for your vehicle.
Unless popular demand makes me include SOME military vehicles that is.
TSR's Indiana Jones RPG has some chase rules that might be worth looking at.
Star Frontiers has some pretty solid vehicular combat rules.
Been so long I have noooo idea now what, if any, rules TSR's MSH has for vehicles.
One to take a peek at, bemusingly enough, the Renegade Nuns on Wheels expansion for the Macho Women with Guns wargame.
As for military grade in pulp hero adventures. Actually that is often the go-to solution for a vehicle based villain. Armour the hell out of your vehicle or use some new invention to bulletproof it. Even the heroes do this. Sometimes to the point of being prof vs some military grade armaments.
Vehicle chases happened now and then but outside of serials high speed gunfights tended to be few in the actual books far as ever saw unless the hero or villain were more vehicle based than man-to-man. Or stitched out alot as need presented. The various iterations of the Rocket Man serial for example. Fist fights > gun fights > car fights > rocketship fights.
The villain/heroes having an armored vehicle can be handled by the bulletproof rules, the vehicle having some sort of armament can be handled by the gadget/weird science rules.
I know vehicle chases/combat weren't that often, but I still think the rules should be there IF the GM wants to have that sort of thing in his game.
Okay, lets see.
Each vehicle as an AC, which is also determined by it's size because AC determines how easy it is to hit it.
Now, lets say we have a trailer, with AC = 13/6
You hit it on a roll of 13+ or 6-
It also has HP, speaking of our trailer lets say it has 70 HP, it has sustained some damage and it has only 4 HP left, so someone hits it with a Blackjack(1d4) and rolls 4 dmg. and now the trailer is "dead". IMHO this makes no sense.
How to solve it in an easy way? It was sugested to use hardness, not a bad idea, so unarmored land vehicles have a hardness of lets say 1d8, meaning anything with a dmg less than that makes only a scratch/dent but no real structural damage. Unless you managed to hit a tire/window...
How to solve this? Roll 1d6?
1 tires (Roll the dice that matches the vehicle: 1d2 Bycicles, motorcycles, 1d4 vehicles with only 2 axles 4 tires, 1d6 vehicles with 3 axles...)
2-5 body
6 windows (except if the vehicle lacks any of course.) Roll 1d6 to see if you hit any of the passengers.
Thoughts?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 07:16:16 PM
Should the vehicle count as armor for the occupants? I mean it might be easier to hit a sedan than you but the bullet might be stoped or deviate and not hit you.
Depends on the round and the gun. For common rifles (e.g., AR/5.56 or AK/7.62, or common hunting cartridges like .270 Winchester, etc) the occupants of a vehicle would benefit from soft cover, but not hard cover. That is, the rounds will go right through the doors (and often out the other side). It's surprising how little protection a car door, etc. provides. Not sure about pistol rounds, though.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on April 26, 2021, 09:28:56 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 07:16:16 PM
Should the vehicle count as armor for the occupants? I mean it might be easier to hit a sedan than you but the bullet might be stoped or deviate and not hit you.
Depends on the round and the gun. For common rifles (e.g., AR/5.56 or AK/7.62, or common hunting cartridges like .270 Winchester, etc) the occupants of a vehicle would benefit from soft cover, but not hard cover. That is, the rounds will go right through the doors (and often out the other side). It's surprising how little protection a car door, etc. provides. Not sure about pistol rounds, though.
You're talking modern weapons and modern cars, Im asking for vehicles from the 30's with the weapons of the time.
Ah, yes. Well, rifle cartridges from the 30s would be just as powerful. I guess the real question would be things like submachine guns (.45 Thompsons, for example).
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on April 26, 2021, 10:43:10 PM
Ah, yes. Well, rifle cartridges from the 30s would be just a powerful. I guess the real question would be things like submachine guns (.45 Thompsons, for example).
Correct, so far my best info is almost all handguns are useles (exceptions being the 38/44) and most rifles wouldn't stop the car except the BAR and one other similar to it unless they hit the tires, driver, radiator or a hose. Big game rifles would penetrate the body and probably hit the ppl.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2021, 06:40:27 PM
The villain/heroes having an armored vehicle can be handled by the bulletproof rules, the vehicle having some sort of armament can be handled by the gadget/weird science rules.
I know vehicle chases/combat weren't that often, but I still think the rules should be there IF the GM wants to have that sort of thing in his game.
Pretty sure thats how MSH handled vehicles as well. Much like how Star Frontiers did. The article for building vehicles and power armour are much the same in SF, and are the same in MSH.
Another worth looking at, appropriately enough, is TSR's Gangbusters RPG as it has vehicle combat rules for the general pulp era. And my Dragon Magazines are in storage so can not check out Crimefighters.
Ones have heard of but not yet had a chance to look at are Daredevils from FGU and Mercenaries, Spies, & Private Eyes from FB. I thought ICE had sone a Rolemaster Pulp Hero book but not seeing any info on it on a quick look. Might be fan made?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2021, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on April 26, 2021, 10:43:10 PM
Ah, yes. Well, rifle cartridges from the 30s would be just a powerful. I guess the real question would be things like submachine guns (.45 Thompsons, for example).
Correct, so far my best info is almost all handguns are useles (exceptions being the 38/44) and most rifles wouldn't stop the car except the BAR and one other similar to it unless they hit the tires, driver, radiator or a hose. Big game rifles would penetrate the body and probably hit the ppl.
The BAR doesn't fire anything all that different from the rifles of the day. The .308 or 8mm rifle rounds of those days packed a considerable punch.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2021, 06:58:11 PM
because AC determines how easy it is to hit it.
I thought AC represented a composite of how easy/hard it is to hit
and damage something. IOW, a big target might have low AC, but a really resistant target might have high AC. Something like an armored car is both big and resistant, so...
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 27, 2021, 01:41:20 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2021, 06:58:11 PM
because AC determines how easy it is to hit it.
I thought AC represented a composite of how easy/hard it is to hit and damage something. IOW, a big target might have low AC, but a really resistant target might have high AC. Something like an armored car is both big and resistant, so...
That's correct, which is why in the bullet proofing rules there's an increase in AC for the vehicle, but when talking of not armored vehicles it's only their inherent "hardness" and their size.
And it still stands that without an extra rule a staff could deliver the "killing" blow to a trailer. And that's what I'm trying to fix in the post you extracted that quote from.
Lets extrapolate to an armored monster, lets postulate something with a hard shell a giant crab, does it make sense to have a staff deliver the killing blow? When it would not pierce the shell? Same for steel vehicles.
Quote from: Omega on April 27, 2021, 12:58:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2021, 06:40:27 PM
The villain/heroes having an armored vehicle can be handled by the bulletproof rules, the vehicle having some sort of armament can be handled by the gadget/weird science rules.
I know vehicle chases/combat weren't that often, but I still think the rules should be there IF the GM wants to have that sort of thing in his game.
Pretty sure thats how MSH handled vehicles as well. Much like how Star Frontiers did. The article for building vehicles and power armour are much the same in SF, and are the same in MSH.
Another worth looking at, appropriately enough, is TSR's Gangbusters RPG as it has vehicle combat rules for the general pulp era. And my Dragon Magazines are in storage so can not check out Crimefighters.
Ones have heard of but not yet had a chance to look at are Daredevils from FGU and Mercenaries, Spies, & Private Eyes from FB. I thought ICE had sone a Rolemaster Pulp Hero book but not seeing any info on it on a quick look. Might be fan made?
Gangbusters, M,S&P.E. I own, hadn't thought of checking for inspiration or to "borrow" from.
Crimefighters by David Cook?
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 27, 2021, 01:38:40 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2021, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on April 26, 2021, 10:43:10 PM
Ah, yes. Well, rifle cartridges from the 30s would be just a powerful. I guess the real question would be things like submachine guns (.45 Thompsons, for example).
Correct, so far my best info is almost all handguns are useles (exceptions being the 38/44) and most rifles wouldn't stop the car except the BAR and one other similar to it unless they hit the tires, driver, radiator or a hose. Big game rifles would penetrate the body and probably hit the ppl.
The BAR doesn't fire anything all that different from the rifles of the day. The .308 or 8mm rifle rounds of those days packed a considerable punch.
Different enough to crack an engine block.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 27, 2021, 01:58:26 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 27, 2021, 01:38:40 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2021, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on April 26, 2021, 10:43:10 PM
Ah, yes. Well, rifle cartridges from the 30s would be just a powerful. I guess the real question would be things like submachine guns (.45 Thompsons, for example).
Correct, so far my best info is almost all handguns are useles (exceptions being the 38/44) and most rifles wouldn't stop the car except the BAR and one other similar to it unless they hit the tires, driver, radiator or a hose. Big game rifles would penetrate the body and probably hit the ppl.
The BAR doesn't fire anything all that different from the rifles of the day. The .308 or 8mm rifle rounds of those days packed a considerable punch.
Different enough to crack an engine block.
The BAR fired the 30-06 Springfield. That was a standard military rifle round at the time. It's not until later that lighter rifle rounds (like the 5.56mm) become more typical.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 27, 2021, 01:57:03 PM
Gangbusters, M,S&P.E. I own, hadn't thought of checking for inspiration or to "borrow" from.
Crimefighters by David Cook?
Gangbusters and Star Frontiers share a somewhat similar vehicle combat system. SF has the more robust of the two though and covers more than just cars.
And correct Cooks mini-RPG in one of the early issues of Dragon.
BAR was a .30-06...equivalent to a 'modern' .308...it'll kill an engine block.
Quote from: moonsweeper on April 27, 2021, 04:42:27 PM
BAR was a .30-06...equivalent to a 'modern' .308...it'll kill an engine block.
Right. I was objecting to the idea that the BAR used a round that was exceptional for it's era. Most military rifles of that time fire comparable rounds.
Quote from: moonsweeper on April 27, 2021, 04:42:27 PM
BAR was a .30-06...equivalent to a 'modern' .308...it'll kill an engine block.
I'd take a 30-06 over a .308 for stopping power due to a combination of heavier bullets and more powder. In gaming terms, 30-06 is going to incur slightly more encumbrance but do slightly more damage.
Quote from: Omega on April 27, 2021, 04:27:29 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 27, 2021, 01:57:03 PM
Gangbusters, M,S&P.E. I own, hadn't thought of checking for inspiration or to "borrow" from.
Crimefighters by David Cook?
Gangbusters and Star Frontiers share a somewhat similar vehicle combat system. SF has the more robust of the two though and covers more than just cars.
And correct Cooks mini-RPG in one of the early issues of Dragon.
I've got that mini-RPG... Somewhere.
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 27, 2021, 05:07:09 PM
Quote from: moonsweeper on April 27, 2021, 04:42:27 PM
BAR was a .30-06...equivalent to a 'modern' .308...it'll kill an engine block.
Right. I was objecting to the idea that the BAR used a round that was exceptional for it's era. Most military rifles of that time fire comparable rounds.
Yeah it was a standard military round. I actually didn't see your post when I made mine. (I hadn't gotten to the next page yet.)