My favorite part of noted retard Daniel Kwan is how they focus on the simple description of the Barbarian class and how it wounds them. Its a brief description of a character class to give the player an idea of what role they want to play. They literally spend one hour on a single page of descriptions, not talking about game mechanics because well if you gave them a D20 they'd ask if that is a fully automatic assault 50 cal round. They are doing the equivalent of the exercise I'm sure they were given sometime at college "Why is this pencil racist", instead its why is this book racist.
The best way to describe these two morons as they critique Oriental Adventures is the scene of Zoolander where they try to open up an iMac and they are shown as cave men. It's worth watching just to see how far gone children are when fed a toxic dose of leftardism in their education.
Those looking for a whitepill out of listening to these low grade "morans", AI is removing large number of white collar jobs, it turns out AI does white collar work very well. Blue collar jobs however, AI is having issues replacing. So as time progresses, those idiots getting advanced degrees in jobs that AI replaced, will be hobbled with debt and lack influence, which will encourage more children not to attend college and instead to take up skilled trades. The more that children can be incentivized to bypass college, that is four years of avoiding hard leftwing ideology and a better chance of them starting out debt free and be able to start a family with a good paying career. AI might just help to switch the culture away from nimrodery.
I couldn't get 10 minutes into this shit.
I have over a decade of living in Asia. These two aren't "Asian" they are urban left Americans of Asian decent. There is a big difference.
Yes, these two clowns are the embodiment of what my Chinese wife calls "bananas"; yellow on the outside, but white on the inside. No actual Asian with half a brain is offended or cares about this shit. Nor do they care about the supposedly hegemonic word "Oriental." But here you go, children of white, Western privilege railing against the same.
Quote from: Persimmon on October 26, 2023, 08:39:14 AM
Yes, these two clowns are the embodiment of what my Chinese wife calls "bananas"; yellow on the outside, but white on the inside. ....
That's a good one, I'll steal it (i.e. appropriate it) ;D
I rescind their Asian credentials. I'm full Chinese and am a first generation immigrant. Therefore I have greater moral authority within the progressive stack and can issue such edicts.henceforth, these two will be considered "guilo" and cast out of Asiandom. I will graciously allow them to keep their rice license. I'm not that cruel.
I wish we had a video where experts on European history and folklore criticized D&D for being racist against Europeans. Call it "Two white dudes call out Occidental Adventures for racism!"
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 26, 2023, 02:22:22 PM
I wish we had a video where experts on European history and folklore criticized D&D for being racist against Europeans. Call it "Two white dudes call out Occidental Adventures for racism!"
Here's the thing: those two idiots are by no means "experts" on Asian history or folklore. As someone who is an expert on those things, I can say this unequivocally.
Quote from: Persimmon on October 26, 2023, 02:56:50 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 26, 2023, 02:22:22 PM
I wish we had a video where experts on European history and folklore criticized D&D for being racist against Europeans. Call it "Two white dudes call out Occidental Adventures for racism!"
Here's the thing: those two idiots are by no means "experts" on Asian history or folklore. As someone who is an expert on those things, I can say this unequivocally.
I know. But my idea sounds like it might actually be educational
Quote from: BadApple on October 26, 2023, 07:47:59 AM
These two aren't "Asian" they are urban left Americans of Asian decent. There is a big difference.
I agree. As a Brit listening to them discuss Legend of the Five Rings, I realised that some of the stereotypes that they were concerned about were American ideas of Asian Americans. Some of this is definitely parochial.
Quote from: Hzilong on October 26, 2023, 01:19:48 PM
I rescind their Asian credentials. I'm full Chinese and am a first generation immigrant. Therefore I have greater moral authority within the progressive stack and can issue such edicts.henceforth, these two will be considered "guilo" and cast out of Asiandom. I will graciously allow them to keep their rice license. I'm not that cruel.
Having two Asians bitching about Asians being depicted as Barbarians is the biggest line of crap. Genghis Khan, largest empire in the world, its believed 20M men can be traced just to him. If you want to know what orcs represent from an ancestral memory its Asian steppe barbarians that took whatever they wanted because they were badasses. During WWII, Hun descendants were used by the soviets to torture SS and Waffen soldiers. They ran in terror like little girls. They drug them to their deaths behind their vehicles. When I think of a Barbarian its the Huns.
Quote from: Persimmon on October 26, 2023, 02:56:50 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 26, 2023, 02:22:22 PM
I wish we had a video where experts on European history and folklore criticized D&D for being racist against Europeans. Call it "Two white dudes call out Occidental Adventures for racism!"
Here's the thing: those two idiots are by no means "experts" on Asian history or folklore. As someone who is an expert on those things, I can say this unequivocally.
I am by no means and expert at any level on Asian culture or social structure. I have lived in Asia in 6 different countries and had a lot of exposure to Korean, Japanese, and Various Chinese cultures. (Also Indochina and Malay cultures.) Anyone with even a smidgen of my exposure will see right through these two.
Here's a neat thing about Oriental Adventures. It has been a product that has been largely seen by the Asian gaming community I was exposed to as an invitation for Asians to join the larger community of gaming of western cultures. I have seen no less that three copies in the hands of locals while in Asia and it was held as prized possession. I did get asked by one guy to explain some of the contents (in the nature of confusion of how westerners see some aspects of Asia.) Also, they seemed very warm to the idea of white guys enjoying playing out an interpretation of Asian heroes.
A real direct comparison would be an analysis of Fabula Ultima or Sword World. And, for the record, Japanese gamers are fully aware that their interpretation of western culture in their gaming is by no means representative of actual western cultures
I think it's interesting to look at David Chart's comments on one of these topics. He was line developer for the last version of Ars Magica which is how I know of him.
On his background from https://www.davidchart.com/about-me/: "I was born in Stockport, in the northwest of England, in 1971. [...] I became a Japanese citizen in 2016, and intend to live the rest of my life in Japan."
He will take on work as a sensitivity reader but he notes:
"I am not Japanese-American, and I cannot comment on what they may or may not find offensive. It appears, for example, that a substantial minority of Japanese-Americans are offended by people not of Japanese descent playing dress-up in kimono, while the Japanese overwhelmingly think it is wonderful. Note that, if you are writing in English, it may be more important to avoid offending Japanese-Americans than to avoid offending the Japanese."
I feel - sitting in Europe - that I'm much more interested in what the Japanese think.
Quote from: Anselyn on October 26, 2023, 03:37:08 PM
I think it's interesting to look at David Chart's comments on one of these topics. He was line developer for the last version of Ars Magica which is how I know of him.
On his background from https://www.davidchart.com/about-me/: "I was born in Stockport, in the northwest of England, in 1971. [...] I became a Japanese citizen in 2016, and intend to live the rest of my life in Japan."
He will take on work as a sensitivity reader but he notes:
"I am not Japanese-American, and I cannot comment on what they may or may not find offensive. It appears, for example, that a substantial minority of Japanese-Americans are offended by people not of Japanese descent playing dress-up in kimono, while the Japanese overwhelmingly think it is wonderful. Note that, if you are writing in English, it may be more important to avoid offending Japanese-Americans than to avoid offending the Japanese."
I feel - sitting in Europe - that I'm much more interested in what the Japanese think.
This sums things up quite well. Every real Asian I talk to regarding this kind of stuff thinks it's great that foreigners, especially those of non-Asian descent, find their culture & history fascinating.
None have ever bitched about "cultural appropriation."
What we see in this video is simply a pastime of the perpetually offended.
Quote from: Anselyn on October 26, 2023, 03:37:08 PM
I think it's interesting to look at David Chart's comments on one of these topics. He was line developer for the last version of Ars Magica which is how I know of him.
On his background from https://www.davidchart.com/about-me/: "I was born in Stockport, in the northwest of England, in 1971. [...] I became a Japanese citizen in 2016, and intend to live the rest of my life in Japan."
He will take on work as a sensitivity reader but he notes:
"I am not Japanese-American, and I cannot comment on what they may or may not find offensive. It appears, for example, that a substantial minority of Japanese-Americans are offended by people not of Japanese descent playing dress-up in kimono, while the Japanese overwhelmingly think it is wonderful. Note that, if you are writing in English, it may be more important to avoid offending Japanese-Americans than to avoid offending the Japanese."
I feel - sitting in Europe - that I'm much more interested in what the Japanese think.
This has been my experience with most people around the world I've been exposed to. As a matter of fact, my desire to learn and willingness to share my own culture has been a bridge to some really great friendships.
I find the bulk of *.*-Americans that have been indoctrinated by leftism to be so out of touch with the culture of their forbears that they are insufferable. Even more so, they totally disrespect central elements of those cultures while screeching at people like me about cultural appropriation.
I spent about 18 months in Taiwan where I developed some fairly close relationships with locals. I was taught how to use chopsticks, brew tea, and cook some recipes. (Other things too, but less relevant to this.) Now when I do some of this in the USA, Asian-Americans of strong leftist ideology will freak out at me. I had to explain to a manager once that me eating with chopsticks wasn't me being mocking of Asian culture but in part honoring my friends who patiently taught me.
Also, I find it absolutely laughable that some Asian-Americans believe that they can speak for the entirety of a whole continent and two archipelagos that encompass hundreds of ethnic groups and cultures.
Quote from: BadApple on October 26, 2023, 03:23:02 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on October 26, 2023, 02:56:50 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 26, 2023, 02:22:22 PM
I wish we had a video where experts on European history and folklore criticized D&D for being racist against Europeans. Call it "Two white dudes call out Occidental Adventures for racism!"
Here's the thing: those two idiots are by no means "experts" on Asian history or folklore. As someone who is an expert on those things, I can say this unequivocally.
I am by no means and expert at any level on Asian culture or social structure. I have lived in Asia in 6 different countries and had a lot of exposure to Korean, Japanese, and Various Chinese cultures. (Also Indochina and Malay cultures.) Anyone with even a smidgen of my exposure will see right through these two.
Here's a neat thing about Oriental Adventures. It has been a product that has been largely seen by the Asian gaming community I was exposed to as an invitation for Asians to join the larger community of gaming of western cultures. I have seen no less that three copies in the hands of locals while in Asia and it was held as prized possession. I did get asked by one guy to explain some of the contents (in the nature of confusion of how westerners see some aspects of Asia.) Also, they seemed very warm to the idea of white guys enjoying playing out an interpretation of Asian heroes.
A real direct comparison would be an analysis of Fabula Ultima or Sword World. And, for the record, Japanese gamers are fully aware that their interpretation of western culture in their gaming is by no means representative of actual western cultures
Japanese interpretation of European culture for Anime:
Hot girl in a uniform with massive jugs and drill hair comes to Japan, becomes friends with MC and is second best fighter.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 26, 2023, 03:56:25 PM
Japanese interpretation of European culture for Anime:
Hot girl in a uniform with massive jugs and drill hair comes to Japan, becomes friends with MC and is second best fighter.
Yep, and the guys I spent time with are fully aware of how ridiculous it all is. The best way to understand anime is to look a kabuki and realize that it's an art form that's intentionally way over the top to elicit emotional reactions.
Quote from: BadApple on October 26, 2023, 04:05:08 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 26, 2023, 03:56:25 PM
Japanese interpretation of European culture for Anime:
Hot girl in a uniform with massive jugs and drill hair comes to Japan, becomes friends with MC and is second best fighter.
Yep, and the guys I spent time with are fully aware of how ridiculous it all is. The best way to understand anime is to look a kabuki and realize that it's an art form that's intentionally way over the top to elicit emotional reactions.
Its an overused trope, Zom 101 had I think a German big tittied blonde superfan of japanese culture always telling the downer japanese girl this or that about their culture generally getting the women more nude or drunk and the guys went all in. Of course one of the guys was a nudsist as well with really shitty reasoning. Good anime, but annoying tropes.
Yeah, I only watched a few minutes of the video, during which they said virtually nothing about the Oriental Adventures book. The video is two frickin hours long, so if anyone wants to debate particular points, please cite a timestamp in the video.
I got to the part about the barbarian class which they critiqued as stereotyping and reducing different "barbaric" peoples -- but this doesn't seem to be about Asian prejudice, since they have no comparison to the Western-based barbarian class in D&D.
Quote from: BadApple on October 26, 2023, 03:23:02 PM
It has been a product that has been largely seen by the Asian gaming community I was exposed to as an invitation for Asians to join the larger community of gaming of western cultures. I have seen no less that three copies in the hands of locals while in Asia and it was held as prized possession. I did get asked by one guy to explain some of the contents (in the nature of confusion of how westerners see some aspects of Asia.) Also, they seemed very warm to the idea of white guys enjoying playing out an interpretation of Asian heroes.
A real direct comparison would be an analysis of Fabula Ultima or Sword World. And, for the record, Japanese gamers are fully aware that their interpretation of western culture in their gaming is by no means representative of actual western cultures
I'd be curious about Fabula Ultima and/or Sword World. Have you read them?
Especially, do either of them have a section about life in the West like the "Daily Life" section in Oriental Adventures? I'd be interested in how they generalize what Western life is like.
Quote from: jhkim on October 26, 2023, 05:44:18 PM
I'd be curious about Fabula Ultima and/or Sword World. Have you read them?
Especially, do either of them have a section about life in the West like the "Daily Life" section in Oriental Adventures? I'd be interested in how they generalize what Western life is like.
Sword World has a wiki you can peruse. https://swordworld.fandom.com/wiki/Sword_World_Wiki
Both game rely heavily on world building and are what a lot of fantasy manga/anime are based on. Sword World particularly is what a lot of JRPG video games are based on.
So yes, there's a lot of direct and indirect things about life and society in the games.
Anyone who has ever read a manga or watched anime knows that the stock in trade is cheerfully using stereotypes of European culture with no regard for context. It's just about fun and use of tropes. At this point the Japanese mangaka who cracks open a book or even Wikipedia to find an obscure word to name his demon lord has more knowledge of and respect for Western culture than the typical mind-fucked American.
They do not seem to have any 'likes' for those two videos - maybe even the wokies are too traumatized from having to do a presentation on the required excerpt from Edward Said's Orientalism at their leftist madrassa to dare to give a thumbs up?
I watched 8 minutes of this, shook my magic 8 ball in my brain, and the little triangle through the window read "I have only one rule about evaluating matters hipster: If you ain't wearing a bolo tie then you ain't made the Scene."
Quote from: jhkim on October 26, 2023, 05:44:18 PM
I'd be curious about Fabula Ultima and/or Sword World. Have you read them?
Especially, do either of them have a section about life in the West like the "Daily Life" section in Oriental Adventures? I'd be interested in how they generalize what Western life is like.
Fabula Ultima (literally "Last Fable" in Latin, but "Fabula" can also mean "Fantasy" and "Ultima" can be translated "Final"...) is an Italian game that aims to recreate the JRPG play experience (especially the various Final Fantasy games). There's ton of content about creating the setting for the campaign while keeping to the common themes of Final Fantasy (there's no common or premade setting, the idea being that in session 0 the group will collaboratively create the game world), and of course nothing about "the West": the game is not about that (and the author is Italian).
Saw a video online of a white guy in different ethnic costumes asking people of that culture their opinion and it was universally a positive reaction. Then in costume he asked college students who were universally offended by each.
The kids want to be offended.
This garbage is still floating around? I tried to watch it to better tear it apart once, but didn't have the fortitude to waste my time so.
I remember at the beginning they blame some stuff on Gary Gygax (who was barely involved in the book despite having his name on it) and bemoan the lack of sensitivity readers/Asian involvement. This despite the fact there were Japanese playtesters because TSR actually was concerned about authenticity. These people are credited in the book.
Am I crazy and misremembering?
Quote from: WERDNA on October 30, 2023, 01:05:55 PM
This garbage is still floating around? I tried to watch it to better tear it apart once, but didn't have the fortitude to waste my time so.
I remember at the beginning they blame some stuff on Gary Gygax (who was barely involved in the book despite having his name on it) and bemoan the lack of sensitivity readers/Asian involvement. This despite the fact there were Japanese playtesters because TSR actually was concerned about authenticity. These people are credited in the book.
Am I crazy and misremembering?
It forced WotC to hire one of the retards to write a throwaway adventure. I don't remember if it was Radiant Asshole or Strixhaven: Pooter now in D&D w/o license fee, but those books didn't do well. The more the WotC can be forced to pander, the harder and faster the management team running D&D gets the boot. Winninger is gone, we'll see Brink next.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 01:21:09 PM
Quote from: WERDNA on October 30, 2023, 01:05:55 PM
I remember at the beginning they blame some stuff on Gary Gygax (who was barely involved in the book despite having his name on it) and bemoan the lack of sensitivity readers/Asian involvement. This despite the fact there were Japanese playtesters because TSR actually was concerned about authenticity. These people are credited in the book.
Am I crazy and misremembering?
It forced WotC to hire one of the retards to write a throwaway adventure. I don't remember if it was Radiant Asshole or Strixhaven: Pooter now in D&D w/o license fee, but those books didn't do well. The more the WotC can be forced to pander, the harder and faster the management team running D&D gets the boot. Winninger is gone, we'll see Brink next.
Regarding Oriental Adventures... Yes, there are a credited set of Japanese playtesters for Oriental Adventures. Particularly as a Korean, though, I hate how it uses only Japanese playtesters and primarily Japanese sources, yet often claims to describe the whole of the Orient. Noble warriors are samurai, sneaky rogues are ninja, etc. The "Daily Life" section also has a lot of generalities about the Orient.
To honeydipperdavid - I think you're thinking of "The Book of Inner Alchemy" in the
Candlekeep Mysteries anthology, authored by Daniel Kwan. It seems to be common practice for WotC that if someone has a widely-read criticism of them, then they invite the author to write. For example, RPGPundit was particularly critical of 4th ed, and was invited to consult on 5th edition.
In general, WotC is facing a common RPG problem right now - the edition treadmill. Even the most popular editions always suffer a drop in sales after many years out. There are so many books available, that the buyers for any new book are decreasing, and it's hard to get a new "must buy" book. The only reliable solution is to release a new edition, and ten years is a relatively long time for an edition to last for most RPGs. WotC has been trying to come up with a fix for the edition treadmill by emphasizing subscriptions, but it's unclear how successful that will be or whether it will be any good.
Quote from: jhkim on October 30, 2023, 02:56:02 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 01:21:09 PM
Quote from: WERDNA on October 30, 2023, 01:05:55 PM
I remember at the beginning they blame some stuff on Gary Gygax (who was barely involved in the book despite having his name on it) and bemoan the lack of sensitivity readers/Asian involvement. This despite the fact there were Japanese playtesters because TSR actually was concerned about authenticity. These people are credited in the book.
Am I crazy and misremembering?
It forced WotC to hire one of the retards to write a throwaway adventure. I don't remember if it was Radiant Asshole or Strixhaven: Pooter now in D&D w/o license fee, but those books didn't do well. The more the WotC can be forced to pander, the harder and faster the management team running D&D gets the boot. Winninger is gone, we'll see Brink next.
Regarding Oriental Adventures... Yes, there are a credited set of Japanese playtesters for Oriental Adventures. Particularly as a Korean, though, I hate how it uses only Japanese playtesters and primarily Japanese sources, yet often claims to describe the whole of the Orient. Noble warriors are samurai, sneaky rogues are ninja, etc. The "Daily Life" section also has a lot of generalities about the Orient.
To honeydipperdavid - I think you're thinking of "The Book of Inner Alchemy" in the Candlekeep Mysteries anthology, authored by Daniel Kwan. It seems to be common practice for WotC that if someone has a widely-read criticism of them, then they invite the author to write. For example, RPGPundit was particularly critical of 4th ed, and was invited to consult on 5th edition.
In general, WotC is facing a common RPG problem right now - the edition treadmill. Even the most popular editions always suffer a drop in sales after many years out. There are so many books available, that the buyers for any new book are decreasing, and it's hard to get a new "must buy" book. The only reliable solution is to release a new edition, and ten years is a relatively long time for an edition to last for most RPGs. WotC has been trying to come up with a fix for the edition treadmill by emphasizing subscriptions, but it's unclear how successful that will be or whether it will be any good.
They already did 5.5E where they pulled racial asymetry to equalize the races and its a lead fart. 6E is adding more abilities to player subclasses while they try to find a way to decrease lethality more, ie HP inflation and damage deflation - leading to long slog combat. I haven't see 6E do anything about reducing HP's, increasing lethality and putting in decreasing cability as the damage piles up. Even putting in 2 points, 66% and 33% hp where a player loses capabilities and 50% where monsters loses capabilitis could do somthing for the game. Bounded Accuracy means no +4/+5 and the game designers thinks they don't have to develop high CR versions of monsters - well they do. We are in the harvest phase now where D&D is releasing splat books, they would have had at least 3-5 years if they kept good rules balance, they did not.
Quote from: BadApple on October 26, 2023, 07:47:59 AM
I couldn't get 10 minutes into this shit.
It's a three year old video with comments turned off. The first thing they said was to pretend that Oriental Adventures is problematic, and to imply that people who want to enjoy it without "knowing" that are somehow bad.
I couldn't even get a minute into it, is what I'm saying. Maybe I'll try again later, I'm sure they have some howlers somewhere in there, but it's literal hours of them being mad right?
Quote from: Venka on October 30, 2023, 03:30:39 PM
Quote from: BadApple on October 26, 2023, 07:47:59 AM
I couldn't get 10 minutes into this shit.
It's a three year old video with comments turned off. The first thing they said was to pretend that Oriental Adventures is problematic, and to imply that people who want to enjoy it without "knowing" that are somehow bad.
I couldn't even get a minute into it, is what I'm saying. Maybe I'll try again later, I'm sure they have some howlers somewhere in there, but it's literal hours of them being mad right?
The video is worth watching to give you an introduction to leftard struggle sessions. They cover 1 page of content, stretch it out to 2 hours of lies, suppositions and just pulling stuff out of their asses. If gives you a good idea of the typical marxist thinking. Never take their studies as fact, always counter them with other studies proving them wrong. James Lindsey got a leftist science magazine to review Mein Kamf where they replaced the Jews with men, and they didn't realize it was literally Hitler's writing. After you watch something like that, it gives you an idea of the work that needs to be done to save society.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 03:51:23 PM
If gives you a good idea of the typical marxist thinking. Never take their studies as fact, always counter them with other studies proving them wrong. James Lindsey got a leftist science magazine to review Mein Kamf where they replaced the Jews with men, and they didn't realize it was literally Hitler's writing. After you watch something like that, it gives you an idea of the work that needs to be done to save society.
It sounds to me like you watched someone make this claim on Youtube, but you probably haven't actually read any of the material in question.
First of all, "Affilia: Feminist Inquiry in Social Work" is not in any sense a
science magazine. None of Lindsay's submitted papers were accepted by actual sociology journals, but some were accepted by niche journals like "Fat Studies" and "Sexuality & Culture" - hence the hoaxes being called the "Grievance Studies Affair".
Second, the paper in question is not literally Hitler's words. You can read the actual article here:
http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/our_struggle_is_my_struggle.pdf
or with reviewer commentary:
https://newdiscourses.com/feminist-mein-kampf/
There are references to Hitler's book in it, but it is nowhere close to Hitler's writing. I would agree that the paper is crap that shouldn't be published, but the main thing that I take away is that political zealots will readily pass on claims without critical thinking. The feminist journal "Affilia" readily published the article despite negative reviews, but equally, other gullible souls readily passed on false claims about the article - like it being literally Hitler's writing or "Affilia" being a science journal.
Quote from: jhkim on October 30, 2023, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 03:51:23 PM
If gives you a good idea of the typical marxist thinking. Never take their studies as fact, always counter them with other studies proving them wrong. James Lindsey got a leftist science magazine to review Mein Kamf where they replaced the Jews with men, and they didn't realize it was literally Hitler's writing. After you watch something like that, it gives you an idea of the work that needs to be done to save society.
It sounds to me like you watched someone make this claim on Youtube, but you probably haven't actually read any of the material in question.
First of all, "Affilia: Feminist Inquiry in Social Work" is not in any sense a science magazine. None of Lindsay's submitted papers were accepted by actual sociology journals, but some were accepted by niche journals like "Fat Studies" and "Sexuality & Culture" - hence the hoaxes being called the "Grievance Studies Affair".
Second, the paper in question is not literally Hitler's words. You can read the actual article here:
http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/our_struggle_is_my_struggle.pdf
or with reviewer commentary:
https://newdiscourses.com/feminist-mein-kampf/
There are references to Hitler's book in it, but it is nowhere close to Hitler's writing. I would agree that the paper is crap that shouldn't be published, but the main thing that I take away is that political zealots will readily pass on claims without critical thinking. The feminist journal "Affilia" readily published the article despite negative reviews, but equally, other gullible souls readily passed on false claims about the article - like it being literally Hitler's writing or "Affilia" being a science journal.
I apologize to you, I touched a nerve in you. I read the book, fairly good. They were intersectional journals and they went after them to prove a point that said journals are not following the scientific method and that intersectional papers should be treated highly sceptical and as opinion not fact. IOW, intersectional "science" is more crap than fact.
Quote from: jhkim on October 30, 2023, 04:56:56 PM
First of all, "Affilia: Feminist Inquiry in Social Work" is not in any sense a science magazine. None of Lindsay's submitted papers were accepted by actual sociology journals, but some were accepted by niche journals like "Fat Studies" and "Sexuality & Culture" - hence the hoaxes being called the "Grievance Studies Affair".
That seems cleverly worded to sound as though no science magazines accepted these articles, without actually stating it. There were four articles published under the Grievance Studies Affair:
1. "Human Reactions to Rape Culture and Queer Performativity at Urban Dog Parks in Portland, Oregon". This was published by Gender, Place & Culture: A Journal of Feminist Geography. Geography is indeed a science.
2. "Who Are They to Judge? Overcoming Anthropometry and a Framework for Fat Bodybuilding". This was published by Fat Studies. I'm not sure why you think that Fat Studies isn't part of the social sciences.
3. "Going in Through the Back Door: Challenging Straight Male Homohysteria and Transphobia through Receptive Penetrative Sex Toy Use". This was published by Sexuality & Culture. Not a science magazine.
4. "An Ethnography of Breastaurant Masculinity: Themes of Objectification, Sexual Conquest, Male Control, and Masculine Toughness in a Sexually Objectifying Restaurant". This was published by the science magazine Sex Roles.
Quote from: jhkim on October 30, 2023, 04:56:56 PM
Second, the paper in question is not literally Hitler's words.
Correct. Switching to German and talking about the struggles of the Aryans against the Jews would, hopefully, have been enough of a red flag to tip the reviewers off.
Quote from: jhkim on October 30, 2023, 04:56:56 PM
There are references to Hitler's book in it
Are there? Could you paste them, because I can't find any mention of "Hilter" or "Kampf".
Quote from: jhkim on October 30, 2023, 04:56:56 PM
it is nowhere close to Hitler's writing.
To quote https://newdiscourses.com/feminist-mein-kampf/:
Quote
The last two thirds of this paper is based upon a rewriting of roughly 3600 words of Chapter 12 of Volume 1 of Mein Kampf, by Adolf Hitler, though it diverges significantly from the original. This chapter is the one in which Hitler lays out in a multi-point plan which we partially reproduced why the Nazi Party is needed and what it requires of its members. The first one third of the paper is our own theoretical framing to make this attempt possible.
Quote
Purpose: That we could find Theory to make anything (in this case, part of Chapter 12 of Volume 1 of Mein Kampf with buzzwords switched in) acceptable to journals if we put it in terms of politically fashionable arguments and existing scholarship. Of note, while the original language and intent of Mein Kampf has been significantly changed to make this paper publishable and about feminism, the reliance upon the politics of grievance remains clear, helping to justify our use of the term "grievance studies" for these fields.
Quote from: jhkim on October 30, 2023, 04:56:56 PM
the main thing that I take away is that political zealots will readily pass on claims without critical thinking. The feminist journal "Affilia" readily published the article despite negative reviews, but equally, other gullible souls readily passed on false claims about the article - like it being literally Hitler's writing or "Affilia" being a science journal.
Affilia did accept something based upon Hilter's writings. Science journals did publish equally dubious articles. Honeydipperdavid may have got some details wrong in what he has remembered, but it seems to me that the gist of what he remembered is correct. And to me, the main takeaway is that political zealots defended the publications, rather than questioning the processes by which academic journals, including science journals, allowed these articles to be published.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 05:05:00 PM
I apologize to you, I touched a nerve in you. I read the book, fairly good. They were intersectional journals and they went after them to prove a point that said journals are not following the scientific method and that intersectional papers should be treated highly sceptical and as opinion not fact. IOW, intersectional "science" is more crap than fact.
You're right, that did touch a nerve. I agree that intersectional studies are generally crap. My beef is that something like lumping stuff like intersectional studies is not a general critique of science.
What book are you referring to have read? I've read some papers and articles about the Grievance Studies Affair, but not a book.
I'm coming from the background as a physicist. I'm fine bashing modern grievance studies as appropriate, but I don't like calling it science. Subjects like Women's Studies or Fat Studies are a modern outgrowth of cultural studies, literary interpretation, and art theory.
Reading your post, it seemed unbelievable to me, so I did a quick search, and the journal was clearly not a science magazine, and then looked up the paper in question, which is quite obviously not the literal words of Hitler as claimed.
-----
Quote from: Krazz on October 30, 2023, 06:37:22 PM
That seems cleverly worded to sound as though no science magazines accepted these articles, without actually stating it. There were four articles published under the Grievance Studies Affair:
1. "Human Reactions to Rape Culture and Queer Performativity at Urban Dog Parks in Portland, Oregon". This was published by Gender, Place & Culture: A Journal of Feminist Geography. Geography is indeed a science.
2. "Who Are They to Judge? Overcoming Anthropometry and a Framework for Fat Bodybuilding". This was published by Fat Studies. I'm not sure why you think that Fat Studies isn't part of the social sciences.
3. "Going in Through the Back Door: Challenging Straight Male Homohysteria and Transphobia through Receptive Penetrative Sex Toy Use". This was published by Sexuality & Culture. Not a science magazine.
4. "An Ethnography of Breastaurant Masculinity: Themes of Objectification, Sexual Conquest, Male Control, and Masculine Toughness in a Sexually Objectifying Restaurant". This was published by the science magazine Sex Roles.
I don't want to get too much into semantics here. If you want to argue that "Fat Studies" is technically science, fine. But just about anyone can see an obvious difference between Fat Studies and a more typical discipline like Sociology.
Quote from: Krazz on October 30, 2023, 06:37:22 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 30, 2023, 04:56:56 PM
it is nowhere close to Hitler's writing.
To quote https://newdiscourses.com/feminist-mein-kampf/:
QuoteThe last two thirds of this paper is based upon a rewriting of roughly 3600 words of Chapter 12 of Volume 1 of Mein Kampf, by Adolf Hitler, though it diverges significantly from the original.
Quote from: Krazz on October 30, 2023, 06:37:22 PM
Affilia did accept something based upon Hilter's writings. Science journals did publish equally dubious articles. Honeydipperdavid may have got some details wrong in what he has remembered, but it seems to me that the gist of what he remembered is correct.
I don't agree that this is a minor detail. Again, honeydipperdavid's claim was "
James Lindsey got a leftist science magazine to review Mein Kamf where they replaced the Jews with men, and they didn't realize it was literally Hitler's writing."
In the claim you quote,
part of the paper took
one-quarter of one chapter of the book, that was
completely rewritten, and self-admittedly
diverged significantly from the original.
That is not a minor misremembered detail, and it shows nothing. One can trivially take a 3600 word snippet of Mein Kampf in which Jews aren't even mentioned. Within Vol 1 Ch 12, points #6 through #12 have no mention of Jews, and that is 4034 words. I could trivially take ideas from Hitler's anti-union arguments, for example, and get modern anti-union people to agree with them.
Quote from: jhkim on October 31, 2023, 12:31:31 AM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 05:05:00 PM
I apologize to you, I touched a nerve in you. I read the book, fairly good. They were intersectional journals and they went after them to prove a point that said journals are not following the scientific method and that intersectional papers should be treated highly sceptical and as opinion not fact. IOW, intersectional "science" is more crap than fact.
You're right, that did touch a nerve. I agree that intersectional studies are generally crap. My beef is that something like lumping stuff like intersectional studies is not a general critique of science.
What book are you referring to have read? I've read some papers and articles about the Grievance Studies Affair, but not a book.
I'm coming from the background as a physicist. I'm fine bashing modern grievance studies as appropriate, but I don't like calling it science. Subjects like Women's Studies or Fat Studies are a modern outgrowth of cultural studies, literary interpretation, and art theory.
Reading your post, it seemed unbelievable to me, so I did a quick search, and the journal was clearly not a science magazine, and then looked up the paper in question, which is quite obviously not the literal words of Hitler as claimed.
-----
Quote from: Krazz on October 30, 2023, 06:37:22 PM
That seems cleverly worded to sound as though no science magazines accepted these articles, without actually stating it. There were four articles published under the Grievance Studies Affair:
1. "Human Reactions to Rape Culture and Queer Performativity at Urban Dog Parks in Portland, Oregon". This was published by Gender, Place & Culture: A Journal of Feminist Geography. Geography is indeed a science.
2. "Who Are They to Judge? Overcoming Anthropometry and a Framework for Fat Bodybuilding". This was published by Fat Studies. I'm not sure why you think that Fat Studies isn't part of the social sciences.
3. "Going in Through the Back Door: Challenging Straight Male Homohysteria and Transphobia through Receptive Penetrative Sex Toy Use". This was published by Sexuality & Culture. Not a science magazine.
4. "An Ethnography of Breastaurant Masculinity: Themes of Objectification, Sexual Conquest, Male Control, and Masculine Toughness in a Sexually Objectifying Restaurant". This was published by the science magazine Sex Roles.
I don't want to get too much into semantics here. If you want to argue that "Fat Studies" is technically science, fine. But just about anyone can see an obvious difference between Fat Studies and a more typical discipline like Sociology.
Quote from: Krazz on October 30, 2023, 06:37:22 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 30, 2023, 04:56:56 PM
it is nowhere close to Hitler's writing.
To quote https://newdiscourses.com/feminist-mein-kampf/:
QuoteThe last two thirds of this paper is based upon a rewriting of roughly 3600 words of Chapter 12 of Volume 1 of Mein Kampf, by Adolf Hitler, though it diverges significantly from the original.
Quote from: Krazz on October 30, 2023, 06:37:22 PM
Affilia did accept something based upon Hilter's writings. Science journals did publish equally dubious articles. Honeydipperdavid may have got some details wrong in what he has remembered, but it seems to me that the gist of what he remembered is correct.
I don't agree that this is a minor detail. Again, honeydipperdavid's claim was "James Lindsey got a leftist science magazine to review Mein Kamf where they replaced the Jews with men, and they didn't realize it was literally Hitler's writing."
In the claim you quote, part of the paper took one-quarter of one chapter of the book, that was completely rewritten, and self-admittedly diverged significantly from the original.
That is not a minor misremembered detail, and it shows nothing. One can trivially take a 3600 word snippet of Mein Kampf in which Jews aren't even mentioned. Within Vol 1 Ch 12, points #6 through #12 have no mention of Jews, and that is 4034 words. I could trivially take ideas from Hitler's anti-union arguments, for example, and get modern anti-union people to agree with them.
So social sciences aren't science?
Sorry but (although I do agree) that's not what academia claims.
Quote from: jhkim on October 31, 2023, 12:31:31 AM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 05:05:00 PM
I apologize to you, I touched a nerve in you. I read the book, fairly good. They were intersectional journals and they went after them to prove a point that said journals are not following the scientific method and that intersectional papers should be treated highly sceptical and as opinion not fact. IOW, intersectional "science" is more crap than fact.
You're right, that did touch a nerve. I agree that intersectional studies are generally crap. My beef is that something like lumping stuff like intersectional studies is not a general critique of science.
What book are you referring to have read? I've read some papers and articles about the Grievance Studies Affair, but not a book.
I'm coming from the background as a physicist. I'm fine bashing modern grievance studies as appropriate, but I don't like calling it science. Subjects like Women's Studies or Fat Studies are a modern outgrowth of cultural studies, literary interpretation, and art theory.
Reading your post, it seemed unbelievable to me, so I did a quick search, and the journal was clearly not a science magazine, and then looked up the paper in question, which is quite obviously not the literal words of Hitler as claimed.
-----
Quote from: Krazz on October 30, 2023, 06:37:22 PM
That seems cleverly worded to sound as though no science magazines accepted these articles, without actually stating it. There were four articles published under the Grievance Studies Affair:
1. "Human Reactions to Rape Culture and Queer Performativity at Urban Dog Parks in Portland, Oregon". This was published by Gender, Place & Culture: A Journal of Feminist Geography. Geography is indeed a science.
2. "Who Are They to Judge? Overcoming Anthropometry and a Framework for Fat Bodybuilding". This was published by Fat Studies. I'm not sure why you think that Fat Studies isn't part of the social sciences.
3. "Going in Through the Back Door: Challenging Straight Male Homohysteria and Transphobia through Receptive Penetrative Sex Toy Use". This was published by Sexuality & Culture. Not a science magazine.
4. "An Ethnography of Breastaurant Masculinity: Themes of Objectification, Sexual Conquest, Male Control, and Masculine Toughness in a Sexually Objectifying Restaurant". This was published by the science magazine Sex Roles.
I don't want to get too much into semantics here. If you want to argue that "Fat Studies" is technically science, fine. But just about anyone can see an obvious difference between Fat Studies and a more typical discipline like Sociology.
Quote from: Krazz on October 30, 2023, 06:37:22 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 30, 2023, 04:56:56 PM
it is nowhere close to Hitler's writing.
To quote https://newdiscourses.com/feminist-mein-kampf/:
QuoteThe last two thirds of this paper is based upon a rewriting of roughly 3600 words of Chapter 12 of Volume 1 of Mein Kampf, by Adolf Hitler, though it diverges significantly from the original.
Quote from: Krazz on October 30, 2023, 06:37:22 PM
Affilia did accept something based upon Hilter's writings. Science journals did publish equally dubious articles. Honeydipperdavid may have got some details wrong in what he has remembered, but it seems to me that the gist of what he remembered is correct.
I don't agree that this is a minor detail. Again, honeydipperdavid's claim was "James Lindsey got a leftist science magazine to review Mein Kamf where they replaced the Jews with men, and they didn't realize it was literally Hitler's writing."
In the claim you quote, part of the paper took one-quarter of one chapter of the book, that was completely rewritten, and self-admittedly diverged significantly from the original.
That is not a minor misremembered detail, and it shows nothing. One can trivially take a 3600 word snippet of Mein Kampf in which Jews aren't even mentioned. Within Vol 1 Ch 12, points #6 through #12 have no mention of Jews, and that is 4034 words. I could trivially take ideas from Hitler's anti-union arguments, for example, and get modern anti-union people to agree with them.
They released it on google docs a long time ago as a free book mind you have to do some reading to make sense of it, but its good. A fair bit of those journals do consider themselves scientific, however they are not, and they do not follow the scientific method.
You can read it here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/19tBy_fVlYIHTxxjuVMFxh4pqLHM_en18
Kwan's assessment was pathetic.
As was already said, he barely made a critique of the actual game book itself. He was more crying because of the word 'Oriental', and the main beef seemed to be that one group of playable characters had -1 intelligence. Therefore calling one group 'inferior'. Boo Hoo! Waaaacist'.
Of course, bear in mind that D&D was not a nuanced character simulator, and giving a race or people a -1 intelligence was more about access to education & one's background/culture. I don't remember Orc University.
And what the two dweebs totally skirted around was the fact that there is a disclaimer at the beginning of the book (I'm paraphrasing here) that the creators apologize for melding cultures, and it was never meant to be accurate as they were just trying to make a playable game from the love of the east asian culture.
Kwan is a talentless hack, IMO and his efforts to enter the hobby have been 'meh' to be polite about it.
Funny thing is. Gits like this love to do cultural criticism but coincidentally then offer "paid" cultural consultant services a bit like Liam Stevenson. A mere coincidence I ask? ;D
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on October 31, 2023, 07:57:15 AM
Kwan's assessment was pathetic.
As was already said, he barely made a critique of the actual game book itself. He was more crying because of the word 'Oriental', and the main beef seemed to be that one group of playable characters had -1 intelligence. Therefore calling one group 'inferior'. Boo Hoo! Waaaacist'.
Of course, bear in mind that D&D was not a nuanced character simulator, and giving a race or people a -1 intelligence was more about access to education & one's background/culture. I don't remember Orc University.
And what the two dweebs totally skirted around was the fact that there is a disclaimer at the beginning of the book (I'm paraphrasing here) that the creators apologize for melding cultures, and it was never meant to be accurate as they were just trying to make a playable game from the love of the east asian culture.
Kwan is a talentless hack, IMO and his efforts to enter the hobby have been 'meh' to be polite about it.
Funny thing is. Gits like this love to do cultural criticism but coincidentally then offer "paid" cultural consultant services a bit like Liam Stevenson. A mere coincidence I ask? ;D
Whenever you hear someone stating D&D is racist for having racial stats, now you can have some fun with them and force cognitive dissonance on them.
1st) Ask them to describe Neanderthals to them, everything they know
-Remind them Neanderthals frames were massive compared to homo sapiens. They had a higher concentration of fast twitch muscle fiber. Their brains were smaller comapred to homo sapiens. They existed at the same time as homo sapiens
2nd) Ask them what would happen in a room if you had two rocks each weight 300 lbs and a neanderthal and a homo sapien, the neanderthal could lift it but the human could not, why is that?
Neanderthal Str +2 Human Str 0
3rd) In the same room, you put flint. You ask both the neanderthal and homo sapien to make an arrowhead. Who makes the best arrowhead for killing? The homo sapien makes the arrow head faster and its more lethal than the neanderthal, why is that?
Neanderthal Int -2, Dex -1 Human Int +2, Dex +1
4th) Ask them are neanderthal and homo sapien the same race, you do understand race is an unofficial subset of species.
5th) Ask them now that you have stated there are physical and mental differences between two species, why are you having issues with Elves who lives for thousands of years having different stats from humans who live for 80 years? They are different species with about as much in common as neanderthals and homo sapiens? You follow the science don't you?
Just drop science in at the end, its a gut punch, covid drilled that idiocy into their heads.
I want to play a Samurai in my game. My brother has already played a ninja in a superhero game.
We're not allowed to do that according to these woke control freaks?
Yeah, no. Get bent. We will play anyway we want. The rest of you get no say in it.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 31, 2023, 10:37:41 AM
I want to play a Samurai in my game. My brother has already played a ninja in a superhero game.
We're not allowed to do that according to these woke control freaks?
Yeah, no. Get bent. We will play anyway we want. The rest of you get no say in it.
Has anyone actually played that OA Ninja in the last decade? That is one weird class.
If your game is AD&D and Oriental Adventures is on the table, there's so much cool shit in there that blows past their really strange ninja implementation. Oriental Barbarians are cool as shit, and Kensai are also badass.
Quote from: jhkim on October 30, 2023, 02:56:02 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 01:21:09 PM
Quote from: WERDNA on October 30, 2023, 01:05:55 PM
I remember at the beginning they blame some stuff on Gary Gygax (who was barely involved in the book despite having his name on it) and bemoan the lack of sensitivity readers/Asian involvement. This despite the fact there were Japanese playtesters because TSR actually was concerned about authenticity. These people are credited in the book.
Am I crazy and misremembering?
It forced WotC to hire one of the retards to write a throwaway adventure. I don't remember if it was Radiant Asshole or Strixhaven: Pooter now in D&D w/o license fee, but those books didn't do well. The more the WotC can be forced to pander, the harder and faster the management team running D&D gets the boot. Winninger is gone, we'll see Brink next.
Regarding Oriental Adventures... Yes, there are a credited set of Japanese playtesters for Oriental Adventures. Particularly as a Korean, though, I hate how it uses only Japanese playtesters and primarily Japanese sources, yet often claims to describe the whole of the Orient. Noble warriors are samurai, sneaky rogues are ninja, etc. The "Daily Life" section also has a lot of generalities about the Orient.
To honeydipperdavid - I think you're thinking of "The Book of Inner Alchemy" in the Candlekeep Mysteries anthology, authored by Daniel Kwan. It seems to be common practice for WotC that if someone has a widely-read criticism of them, then they invite the author to write. For example, RPGPundit was particularly critical of 4th ed, and was invited to consult on 5th edition.
In general, WotC is facing a common RPG problem right now - the edition treadmill. Even the most popular editions always suffer a drop in sales after many years out. There are so many books available, that the buyers for any new book are decreasing, and it's hard to get a new "must buy" book. The only reliable solution is to release a new edition, and ten years is a relatively long time for an edition to last for most RPGs. WotC has been trying to come up with a fix for the edition treadmill by emphasizing subscriptions, but it's unclear how successful that will be or whether it will be any good.
I despise the edition treadmill because it just pointlessly repackages old books and forces you to buy the same thing again with minor changes. We live in the age of wikis now. It's absolutely idiotic to keep designing books the way they were designed in the 80s.
Speaking of alchemy, my favorite ttrpg alchemy rules are the ones from Chaosium's
Enlighted Magic book. They're the best alchemy rules ever written, hands down. Fight me.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 31, 2023, 11:44:11 AM
I despise the edition treadmill because it just pointlessly repackages old books and forces you to buy the same thing again with minor changes. We live in the age of wikis now. It's absolutely idiotic to keep designing books the way they were designed in the 80s.
I mean if you make a change like 3.0 was to prior games, you need to rewrite everything. Similar with 4e and 5e. Each edition is made with the goal of doing this, of course, because that's how they make money. A hypothetical 6e will probably be launched with a huge push to attack all competitors- 5e has forumites complaining about martial / caster imbalance and all players complaining about not providing enough guidance for a DM, so promising to fix that could be an attack on 5e, but they would probably also attack other groups- OSR, of course, could be attacked politically. I actually suspect that was an idea taken seriously as recently as a year ago over at Hasbro, based on the strange lefty crap they were doing at the time.
But yes, in general, there's no need to continue recreating base handbooks- but I think we'll see no end of that. After all, if YOU wanted to make your OWN project based in OSR stuff, a core rulebook would be your FIRST priority, right? You wouldn't want, say,
Stars Without Number, which in its first edition was B/X compatible pretty strictly (and remains so with some basic conversions), to be printed as a series of
diffs, right?
QuoteSpeaking of alchemy, my favorite ttrpg alchemy rules are the ones from Chaosium's Enlighted Magic book. They're the best alchemy rules ever written, hands down. Fight me.
Maybe but I'm not giving money to them. Redlist and all.
Quote from: Venka on October 31, 2023, 12:08:10 PM
Maybe but I'm not giving money to them. Redlist and all.
It's OOP and not for sale in PDF, so you're not giving money to them even if you do find it. :)
EDIT: Looks like I was wrong and it is still available in PDF. I wouldn't recommend it, but I found it didn't grab me when I tried to read it, I'm highly dubious of things that try to gamify real-world occultism, and I don't much care for John Snead or current Chaosium management. :)
A fast search shows it's up on their website for sale as a PDF, but again, I'm not gonna bother.
If you want a playable 1e/2e ninja, grab the Griftmaster's Guide to Life's Wildest Dreams for Hackmaster 4e, which has a bunch of thief subclasses, including the yakuza.
Quote from: Venka on October 31, 2023, 12:08:10 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 31, 2023, 11:44:11 AM
I despise the edition treadmill because it just pointlessly repackages old books and forces you to buy the same thing again with minor changes. We live in the age of wikis now. It's absolutely idiotic to keep designing books the way they were designed in the 80s.
I mean if you make a change like 3.0 was to prior games, you need to rewrite everything. Similar with 4e and 5e. Each edition is made with the goal of doing this, of course, because that's how they make money. A hypothetical 6e will probably be launched with a huge push to attack all competitors- 5e has forumites complaining about martial / caster imbalance and all players complaining about not providing enough guidance for a DM, so promising to fix that could be an attack on 5e, but they would probably also attack other groups- OSR, of course, could be attacked politically. I actually suspect that was an idea taken seriously as recently as a year ago over at Hasbro, based on the strange lefty crap they were doing at the time.
But yes, in general, there's no need to continue recreating base handbooks- but I think we'll see no end of that. After all, if YOU wanted to make your OWN project based in OSR stuff, a core rulebook would be your FIRST priority, right? You wouldn't want, say, Stars Without Number, which in its first edition was B/X compatible pretty strictly (and remains so with some basic conversions), to be printed as a series of diffs, right?
QuoteSpeaking of alchemy, my favorite ttrpg alchemy rules are the ones from Chaosium's Enlighted Magic book. They're the best alchemy rules ever written, hands down. Fight me.
Maybe but I'm not giving money to them. Redlist and all.
In general ttrpg rules are just absurdly convoluted. They could stand to be a lot simpler.
Additionally, fluff should really be kept separate from rules. Like, put that in a separate book that doesn't need to be reprinted every edition unless you're making deliberate retcons. Likewise, removing all the fluff scattered haphazardly everywhere keeps the crunch clean and easily understandable.
Quote from: jhkim on October 31, 2023, 12:31:31 AM
Quote from: Krazz on October 30, 2023, 06:37:22 PM
That seems cleverly worded to sound as though no science magazines accepted these articles, without actually stating it. There were four articles published under the Grievance Studies Affair:
1. "Human Reactions to Rape Culture and Queer Performativity at Urban Dog Parks in Portland, Oregon". This was published by Gender, Place & Culture: A Journal of Feminist Geography. Geography is indeed a science.
2. "Who Are They to Judge? Overcoming Anthropometry and a Framework for Fat Bodybuilding". This was published by Fat Studies. I'm not sure why you think that Fat Studies isn't part of the social sciences.
3. "Going in Through the Back Door: Challenging Straight Male Homohysteria and Transphobia through Receptive Penetrative Sex Toy Use". This was published by Sexuality & Culture. Not a science magazine.
4. "An Ethnography of Breastaurant Masculinity: Themes of Objectification, Sexual Conquest, Male Control, and Masculine Toughness in a Sexually Objectifying Restaurant". This was published by the science magazine Sex Roles.
I don't want to get too much into semantics here. If you want to argue that "Fat Studies" is technically science, fine. But just about anyone can see an obvious difference between Fat Studies and a more typical discipline like Sociology.
We're getting far from Oriental Adventures, but the semantics are important, and was the purpose of the "studies". I remember creation "science" trying to pass itself off as science. They had to set up their own universities, because proper ones wouldn't let them in. There were court cases to keep their teachings out of schools, as real scientists defended the meaning of the word. But the grievance studies groups are
already in the real universities. The subjects are
already being taught in schools to children too young to understand what science is. They're calling themselves sciences. To most children raised in this environment, what's the difference in how scientific fat studies and physics are?
Quote from: jhkim on October 31, 2023, 12:31:31 AM
In the claim you quote, part of the paper took one-quarter of one chapter of the book, that was completely rewritten, and self-admittedly diverged significantly from the original.
Based on what you've put in italics, it sounds as though the only valid experiment would have been to submit all 704 pages of Mein Kampf, unedited, in the original German, without any mention of feminism, and not even with a forward to make it look remotely like an academic paper.
Quote from: jhkim on October 31, 2023, 12:31:31 AM
That is not a minor misremembered detail, and it shows nothing. One can trivially take a 3600 word snippet of Mein Kampf in which Jews aren't even mentioned. Within Vol 1 Ch 12, points #6 through #12 have no mention of Jews, and that is 4034 words. I could trivially take ideas from Hitler's anti-union arguments, for example, and get modern anti-union people to agree with them.
But that's nothing like what they did. They worked from a part of the book that did talk about the Jews.
Quote from: Krazz on October 31, 2023, 05:38:13 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 31, 2023, 12:31:31 AM
If you want to argue that "Fat Studies" is technically science, fine. But just about anyone can see an obvious difference between Fat Studies and a more typical discipline like Sociology.
I remember creation "science" trying to pass itself off as science. They had to set up their own universities, because proper ones wouldn't let them in. There were court cases to keep their teachings out of schools, as real scientists defended the meaning of the word. But the grievance studies groups are already in the real universities. The subjects are already being taught in schools to children too young to understand what science is. They're calling themselves sciences. To most children raised in this environment, what's the difference in how scientific fat studies and physics are?
Even today, there are hundreds of universities that have Creation Science studies. Here's a list of 208 creationist colleges, for example:
https://christiananswers.net/q-eden/creationist-schools.html
Note that a majority of private colleges in the U.S. have a religious affiliation. My nephew went to a Lutheran college, for example. Most religious schools are still opposed to Creation Science, but creationists have largely worked with existing religious schools. I suspect there are less than 208 colleges that have a Fat Studies department.
The point is, academia has never been proof against a minority of fringe science and pseudo-science. In the past, there was phrenology, eugenics, parapsychology, and so forth. And by free speech, people who advocate those have a right to be heard. What we can do, though, is not lump these together.
Quote from: Krazz on October 31, 2023, 05:38:13 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 31, 2023, 12:31:31 AM
That is not a minor misremembered detail, and it shows nothing. One can trivially take a 3600 word snippet of Mein Kampf in which Jews aren't even mentioned. Within Vol 1 Ch 12, points #6 through #12 have no mention of Jews, and that is 4034 words. I could trivially take ideas from Hitler's anti-union arguments, for example, and get modern anti-union people to agree with them.
But that's nothing like what they did. They worked from a part of the book that did talk about the Jews.
They self-admittedly took a 3600-word section from Vol 1, Ch 12 -- but they don't specify which 3600 word section. That chapter in general is about the organization and process of the Nazi party, like the split between intellectuals and laborers among its supporters. It is dominated by the 14 numbered points about how the movement should be organized. There are some mention of Jews in scattered sections, but it is not the topic of the chapter.
The hoax paper parallels this with its contrast of mainstream "neoliberal feminism" versus "allyship feminism". As I read it now, I can see where they adapted. For example, Hitler's point #1 (of 14) parallels the paper's point #2 (of 8) -- talking about sacrifices that must be made for the movement's interest. And Hitler's point #3 parallels the paper's point #5 -- speaking against half-measures and the need for focus in the movement. But the feminist paper has no parallel to Hitler's point #5 where he talks about race as central.
They could easily have put in there that feminism needs to remain female, but they deleted it instead.
So what they did was take some bits of Hitler's advice about how to craft a popular movement, took out the parts about race, and then completely rewrote and reorganized it. I would submit that Hitler was extremely successful at organizing a mass popular movement. If one deletes the stuff about race, there is probably some useful information in there.
While this thread is in a lame spot right now, I will say that I find jhkim's argument to be compelling because he references the parts of the book used. I think the only way to go deeper would be to actually find the document that they submitted (which may or may not be available), and then point-by-point compare with
Mein Kamph. Lol.
Anyway here's my two current beliefs on this sub-point:
1- The authors did this to attack the academic leftwing political industry. It uses the false idea that "Hitler equal antisemitism" (versus "Hitler was antisemitic", which is correct), and refuting this requires digging into a reasonably uncomfortable source document, and the IMPLICATION is what the original conservative writers were relying on when they did this. You could have a pretty sizable corpus from fascists without any racism, after all, were you to go look for that. It was used for
headline power, though they had several other papers.
2- Said leftwing political industry really does deal in hate-adjacent topics though, and will print things that would not be tolerated if said about women, or non-white groups, etc. While this particular talking point is a bad-faith attack, there's no shortage of quotes from published documents and people that all but demand government force be applied to groups like "all men" in exchange for some promised social advancement.
I feel anyone could defend (2) pretty easily- just google up incendiary quotes by famous and/or powerful anti-establishment people from decades past, or any random tweets by ludicrous postmodern posters.
Finally, the idea of "we got a journal or group to agree with our stupid position" is an old attack, and it is somewhat valuable for showing that a group is not as serious as their grants and titles would show. It's been used by many who are trying to improve the standards of papers, or point out that the entire industry is a bit too much smoke-and-mirrors.
Here's one about computer stuff:
https://news.mit.edu/2015/how-three-mit-students-fooled-scientific-journals-0414
Generally the three people who did this though really did meet with some success at getting ridiculous stuff through a variety of review processes.
QuoteThe team explained their motivations and methodology: "We set out with three basic rules: (1) we'll focus almost exclusively upon ranked peer-reviewed journals in the field, the higher the better and at the top of their subdisciplines whenever possible; (2) we will not pay to publish any paper; and (3) if we are asked at any point by a journal editor or reviewer (but not a journalist!) if any paper we wrote is an attempted hoax, we will admit it."
Like yes, this was ultimately a troll project, but if you subtract the silly headline it does have some value I think.
The point was that those journals are based on opinions and politics not repeatable scientific facts. They should not be taken into account for citation or scientific in the least bit. It was an attack on the leftist attack on objective truth. Next, the best way to destroy something is to make fun of it, pillory it, and diminish it. Its the one thing that truly terrifies the left. It's why the hoax was so effective at shaking leftists to the bone. They did everything they could to punish the academics, which then bought more attention to the hoax in the first place. It was a nice cycle of negative propaganda towards the left.