TheRPGSite

What are your opinions on it?

For legal reasons, this site can't allow for information regarding how to fileshare to advertised on the forum, but we can have a robust discussion about the issue, as it pertains to RPGs.

RPGPundit

I'm against it.  The amount of geniunely free rpg material on the web makes it pointless.  And I want the people who crank out gaming stuff for my amusement to get paid.

I believe sharing of copyrighted works contrary to the work's license is immoral and betrays a lack of respect for creators.

I also believe it's not really an economic problem, and is blown out of proportion, and creators of all types suffer when they don't realize that they have a primed-and-ready advertising platform in file-sharing.

I used to use Napster and all those things, but do not any more. Like I said, I think that illegally downloading copyrighted material is entirely wrong.

I believe that it's a negative influence, financially.

Not "the end of the world" or anything like it, just another small bad influence in an already often cash-strapped mostly-cottage industry.

This is only an opinion, mind, based mainly on my own reading and my general thinking.  I know more people that fileshare and don't buy than I do that fileshare and then do buy.

So, Clinton; why do you think that it's not a negative financial deal?

Nicking threads from RPGnet pundit? I'm disappointed in you...;)

Anything that has the potential to take money from my pocket is a bad thing, both to me and my babbies.

Quote from: jrientsI'm against it.  The amount of geniunely free rpg material on the web makes it pointless.  And I want the people who crank out gaming stuff for my amusement to get paid.

You're making two points here:

1. There are Free RPGs, hence it is pointless that non-free RPGs should be pirated.
2. File sharing prevents game designers from being paid for their work.

My response to this, as devil's advocate would be:

1. In the real world, it doesn't work like that. The "point" is that more people have heard of/would like the chance to have D&D's "mysteries of the moonsea", instead of R. Bumquist Nobody's "Free Fantasy Heartbreaker RPG". So whether you are on the side that it is right or wrong, you cannot argue that the fact that there's thousands of free rpgs (some of them good, most of them awful, and almost all of them totally unknown) would make it "pointless" to pirate commercial RPGs.
It'd be kind of like saying that there's no point in downloading the Infinite Crisis novel from a file-sharer because you can get a free Bible from the Gideons. Hey, they're both literature, right?

2. There is no concrete evidence of just how much payment game designers (like music industry figures, or movie theaters) actually lose due to file sharing. There is some evidence that a huge percentage of people who download something are people who would never have bought that something in the first place.  There is also evidence that some of those who download end up buying said product anyways (a kind of "try before you buy", meaning that the argument against this is an argument in favour of customers getting screwed by being stuck with products they didn't really want).  The point is we don't really know; we don't know with the music industry, so we sure as hell don't know with the gaming industry.

RPGPundit, devil's advocate

I don't do it myself, but it doesn't offend me.

I have a friend who plays in my campaign. The first time we played, he surveyed my collection and asked "what books don't you have.." (which I thought was an odd question.) So of course, he showed up at the next session with a CD with several books burned on it.

Did I use it? Well, kinda. I opened the Eberron PDF and checked it out when we started looking into Eberron. It got too frustrating to use the pdf thingy so I went out and got a copy from Amazon. Another player gave me the PHB II for my birthday, and when we recruited him in to join our Eberron campaign, I gave him a second copy of Eberron just because I knew he'd probably never buy it himself.

So there, I was a pirate, and then I bought the damn thing twice.

And now (looks) I've already lost the CD.

EDIT- Hey look, I did what Pundit said in number 2!

Quote from: Clinton R. NixonI believe sharing of copyrighted works contrary to the work's license is immoral and betrays a lack of respect for creators.

I also believe it's not really an economic problem, and is blown out of proportion, and creators of all types suffer when they don't realize that they have a primed-and-ready advertising platform in file-sharing.

I used to use Napster and all those things, but do not any more. Like I said, I think that illegally downloading copyrighted material is entirely wrong.

Your point in the middle is interesting (and I agree with it; trying to put the genie back in the bottle won't work, now you need to try to use filesharing in a way that works, instead of trying to stop what is already unstoppable); but let's look at your first and last paragraph: you say that its "immoral", and "entirely wrong".
But you don't really say why, which is what I'd really like to know?
Why is it "immoral" and "entirely wrong"?

RPGPundit

I think it's a bad thing to do. Semantics aside, to freely share a work that's intented to feed the creator is taking something from them unfairly. OTOH the US laws on copyright have become ridiculous. It's been stretched so far that soon any work will retain it's copyright forever. That would be a very bad thing.

Quote from: One Horse TownNicking threads from RPGnet pundit? I'm disappointed in you...;)

I'd been thinking of this issue for some time, and its something that has come up on my blog a few times.
The thread on RPG.net was just a reminder that I wanted to post a thread on the same topic here.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JamesVI think it's a bad thing to do. Semantics aside, to freely share a work that's intented to feed the creator is taking something from them unfairly.

Does this mean that Libraries are "bad things to do"? What about Mix Tapes?

QuoteOTOH the US laws on copyright have become ridiculous. It's been stretched so far that soon any work will retain it's copyright forever. That would be a very bad thing.

Yup, to me that's a far greater "evil".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditDoes this mean that Libraries are "bad things to do"? What about Mix Tapes?

I don't really see file-sharing in the same league as a lending library, which is temporary and inconvenient to copy even today, or a mix-tape, which nowadays are often intentionally created by musicians to advertise their product. While some of the stuff on file servers were purchased by the server's owner, there are many places where the files are all copies obtained freely some place else. The super easy replication of files is stumbling block for me.

I've thought some on what a good standard of fair use for legally protected computer files would be, and I don't think there are easy answers.

It doesn't matter what I think, or if I am affected, as the Pundit doesn't believe anything I make qualifies as a real RPG.

Whatever

-clash

Quote from: Abyssal Maw"what books don't you have.."

I've gotten that question a few times, and asked it a few times.  I'm not against filesharing, but I don't use it extensively either.  I've used it to nab a book I wanted to see before I bought, or to grab OOP books.  I've also used it for books I already own, nothing beats an index better than a searchable PDF.  I think it's ridiculuous that publishers don't have good quality PDFs available with a book...should I ever become a publisher, I'd throw in a PDF with every book purchase.  It just makes sense.

I don't make a habit of grabbing books I don't have just to have them.  Now, if there's one rule or two out of a sourcebook and I don't want the whole book...that's different.

I use filesharing as a tool.  I use it for my school books all the damn time (textbooks are WAY too expensive), music from an artist I'd like to hear more of (before I buy the album, I always buy albums), and for missed episodes of TV shows.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou're making two points here:

1. There are Free RPGs, hence it is pointless that non-free RPGs should be pirated.
2. File sharing prevents game designers from being paid for their work.

My response to this, as devil's advocate would be:

1. In the real world, it doesn't work like that. The "point" is that more people have heard of/would like the chance to have D&D's "mysteries of the moonsea", instead of R. Bumquist Nobody's "Free Fantasy Heartbreaker RPG". So whether you are on the side that it is right or wrong, you cannot argue that the fact that there's thousands of free rpgs (some of them good, most of them awful, and almost all of them totally unknown) would make it "pointless" to pirate commercial RPGs.
It'd be kind of like saying that there's no point in downloading the Infinite Crisis novel from a file-sharer because you can get a free Bible from the Gideons. Hey, they're both literature, right?

2. There is no concrete evidence of just how much payment game designers (like music industry figures, or movie theaters) actually lose due to file sharing. There is some evidence that a huge percentage of people who download something are people who would never have bought that something in the first place.  There is also evidence that some of those who download end up buying said product anyways (a kind of "try before you buy", meaning that the argument against this is an argument in favour of customers getting screwed by being stuck with products they didn't really want).  The point is we don't really know; we don't know with the music industry, so we sure as hell don't know with the gaming industry.

RPGPundit, devil's advocate

Actually, I was thinking more along personal rather than policy lines.  Speaking for myself only I find pirating both pointless and counterproductive, in addition to being illegal and of dubious morality.

Legal or not, I don't need to pirate anything because I can get a bunch of stuff for free legitimately.  And some of it is quite good.  The SRD, Fudge, Risus, Encounter Critical.  The list goes on and on.  In an era where you can legally obtain almost the entire core rules of D&D for gratis, pirating seems like the king picking a peasant's pocket.

And I like it when I can support good designers so they produce more material.  I'm one of those crazy cats who sent Vincent Baker a check during the time when he was sending out copies of kpfs for free with a little note "if you like it, maybe send me a fiver".  Did Baker need the $6.66 I sent him?  Probably not, but if I get to choose I want game designers encouraged by sales revenue rather than discouraged by seeing people swiping their stuff.

Quote from: RPGPunditThere is also evidence that some of those who download end up buying said product anyways (a kind of "try before you buy", meaning that the argument against this is an argument in favour of customers getting screwed by being stuck with products they didn't really want).  The point is we don't really know; we don't know with the music industry, so we sure as hell don't know with the gaming industry.

I take issue with the whole "wasn't going to buy it anyway" line of reasoning.

If I steal a bottle of cold medicine from the store does that mean that I wasn't going to buy it in the first place? Not if I can get away with walking out the front door with it. If I steal a laptop just to try one out before I buy one I'm sure as fuck not going to give it back even if it's a pile of crap. I mean, if I would have actually bought that laptop and it ended up never using it I would have been screwed right?

I won't condem nor condone file sharing. It seems a lot like jerking off to me. Everyone does it at least once, but they never talk about it.

Quote from: flyingmiceIt doesn't matter what I think, or if I am affected, as the Pundit doesn't believe anything I make qualifies as a real RPG.

Whatever

-clash

Then what have I been playing? :confused:;)

Quote from: RPGPunditBut you don't really say why, which is what I'd really like to know?
Why is it "immoral" and "entirely wrong"?
RPGPundit

Pundit,

First, I'll admit that I'm a strict moralist, so my statements often come out pretty strong to people in today's world of moral relativism.

Why do I feel it's immoral? I believe that creators have the right to decide how their creation is shared with others. (This is different from thinking creators have the right to decide what you do with their work, which is just stupid.) I'm a big proponent of the open-source software and Creative Commons movements. What I believe that a lot of the cretins in those movements don't get, however, is that mutual respect is the key to opening people's minds. By respecting the copyright of others' work, even if I think they make a poor decision by closing off the work to others, I help establish a mutuality where they respect my decision to share my work under certain terms.

Breaking copyright eliminates that mutuality and breaks down the primary motivator for creatives: respect.

It's pointless to debate the matter, really.  There's been a generational shift in the way intellectual property is thought of (IMO) that's resulted in the "if it's on the internet, it's free" meme.

The anime industry, for instance, is fighting tooth and nail against the fansub groups that take wildly popular shows, translate them (poorly) and upload them for free download.  This leads to "fans" who have HDs full of pirated anime and no desire to purchase any of their favorite shows.

There seems to be a fundamental disconnect in their brains that prevents them from seeing the connection between purchasing legitimate product and the continued ability of companies to produce.  For some reason, they perceive entertainment as a free resource produced for the good of all by companies with unlimited resources.

Now, RPGs are a tiny industry.  Most companies consist of a bare handful of people, most of whom are contract labor.  Both the scale and the impact of digital piracy on their bottom lines are smaller than in the above example, granted.

However, anything that breaks the economic chain for good product is a bad thing in my eyes.  Mike Mearls makes good product (for example), therefore I want Mike Mearls to earn as much money for his efforts as the market will give him, giving him reason to make more good product.

Geek points and internet celebrity aren't going to pay the bills.

Now, file sharing can be a vital advertising resource.  How to use that resource, however, will take experimentation in the RPG field.  You can't really iTunes out a rulebook or setting guide.

I just know too many RPG publishers/writers to feel right about doing it, I think.

It is simply immoral to take the work of another and decide to distribute it however you please. Both as a consumer of P2P networks and as a host of one. It amounts to stealing and nothing less. If you are doing your won mix tape that is made from music you legally purchased and for your personal use, this perfectly acceptable. If you want to make a thousand copies of an album for personal use, again no problem. I agree with much of what Clinton said on the matter.

However, I am nothing if not a harsh realist. I appreciate that P2P networks are here to stay and pirating existed long before them. I would protect my IP vigorously from a financial or branding infraction but pirating falls into "is it worth it" category. If appropriate (meaning it costs me little or nothing) then I will persue it. Most of the time, it (persuing pirates) does nto sum up.

Bill

Quote from: JamesVI don't really see file-sharing in the same league as a lending library, which is temporary and inconvenient to copy even today, or a mix-tape, which nowadays are often intentionally created by musicians to advertise their product. While some of the stuff on file servers were purchased by the server's owner, there are many places where the files are all copies obtained freely some place else. The super easy replication of files is stumbling block for me.

I've thought some on what a good standard of fair use for legally protected computer files would be, and I don't think there are easy answers.

So wait, you're saying that you think that the reason why file sharing is wrong is because its too efficient?

RPGPundit

Quote from: flyingmiceIt doesn't matter what I think, or if I am affected, as the Pundit doesn't believe anything I make qualifies as a real RPG.

Whatever

-clash

Actually, I've never heard of a single game you've ever written. Its not that I have looked at your work and chosen to reject you, its that you don't even figure in my reality.

Of course, if you really wanted to you could take steps to change that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jrientsActually, I was thinking more along personal rather than policy lines.  Speaking for myself only I find pirating both pointless and counterproductive, in addition to being illegal and of dubious morality.

Again, I think you need to elaborate a bit more on the "pointless", "counterproductive" and "dubious morality" statements to explain what you mean by them.
The "illegal" part is relatively clear.

QuoteAnd I like it when I can support good designers so they produce more material.  I'm one of those crazy cats who sent Vincent Baker a check during the time when he was sending out copies of kpfs for free with a little note "if you like it, maybe send me a fiver".  Did Baker need the $6.66 I sent him?  Probably not, but if I get to choose I want game designers encouraged by sales revenue rather than discouraged by seeing people swiping their stuff.

Yes, that's a valid point. But the real question is whether the people who download from fileshare programs are any of them people who would otherwise have sent the $5 cheque in the first place?  Or are they mostly people who either would not have or could not have (for financial reasons) done so, anyways?
In which case it seems to become a case of building an extra-tall fence so that lousy kids can't see the drive-in theatre movie without paying.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Mystery ManI take issue with the whole "wasn't going to buy it anyway" line of reasoning.

If I steal a bottle of cold medicine from the store does that mean that I wasn't going to buy it in the first place? Not if I can get away with walking out the front door with it.

Except file sharing doesn't do that. The fact that Jim has downloaded a copy of the D&D PHB onto his computer doesn't mean that there's suddenly magically one copy LESS of the PHB in someone's local gaming store, or even that the Wizards Online store now must sell one less copy of its PDF legally.
Contrary to what the parasites of the RIAA try to tell you, it is NOT theft. Its (illegal) reproduction. Which is different from theft.

QuoteI won't condem nor condone file sharing. It seems a lot like jerking off to me. Everyone does it at least once, but they never talk about it.

Here in the third world, where its virtually impossible for most of the gamers I play with to get games, because (unlike me) they don't have an international credit card, and don't have the money to spend on shipping books from the states even if they did, file sharing is endemic. There's even a REAL piracy industry, not in the sense of just downloading, but dudes downloading the games and offering printed versions of the books for sale.

I don't consider that "wankery", I consider that a MASSIVE failure of the gaming industry to capitalize on a potentially huge market that is starved for gaming books.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditSo wait, you're saying that you think that the reason why file sharing is wrong is because its too efficient?

RPGPundit

It doesn't make it wrong, but it makes it much easier for the wrong to happen. Piracy has probably always been around, but I don't think it's ever been this easy to do. A few clicks, torrents, and hours later and I could have a hard drive full of copyrighted material and spread it around to anyone. This is an incentive for even the laziest amongst us to do it. There isn't really anyone to blame for it, this efficiency is what makes makes computers useful tools, but you can't ignore it as an issue, either. This adds that whole dimension where companies try to integrate DRM into their digital product, and meet the whinging of the masses, because it makes the product  less convenient (See DriveThru RPG). In the end though, DRM development has to continue, because people who wish to create works for sale online need some kind of protection from the yahoos looking to snatch free shit.

I've downloaded copies of books that I already own so I can print out specific charts and whatnot as a reference to be used in-game, but I don't download copies of RPG books I do not already own not because of any personal moral code, but rather because I'm not particularly fond of PDFs.  I like doing my game prep on the couch, surrounded by books with post-its marking all of the pages.  I can't stand having to use references that only exist in a digital format.  Incidentally, I don't buy gaming pdfs either.  It's either paper or nothing for me.

The difference between stealing a bottle of aspirin and pirating a song or a book is that with the aspirin, you've deprived the store owner of the ability to sell that bottle to another customer. Not so with piracy.

From a pragmatic standpoint I don't have a problem with sharing works that have essentially been abandoned by their "owners". It's not much different, IMO, from creating derivative works without permission. If the owner sends you a C&D I'm not going to blame him, and I think in that case you should cease and desist regardless of the owner's ability to carry through with a lawsuit. On the other hand I don't mind telling people that various bits of abandonware are available over the net, even if the owner has never openly released them into the public domain. The chance of a new edition is zero, nothing is being printed or made available by electronic distribution, etc., so the only people harmed by this are collectors, and I don't feel any moral obligation to enforce their right to profit from the copyright regime.

From an academic standpoint, by virtue of living in a country where the Berne Convention is the law, I'm morally obligated not to copy stuff whose creators don't want me to. If I lived in a country that didn't subscribe to international copyright law, though, I'm not sure I would trouble myself over it. Copyright is a contract between creators and society, for the mutual benefit of both, but societies that don't buy into copyright haven't made themselves subject to that contract. I think that contracts should be respected but I'm not sure I see a moral imperative to give a street musician a dollar simply because I walked past while he was playing.

Quote from: RPGPunditActually, I've never heard of a single game you've ever written. Its not that I have looked at your work and chosen to reject you, its that you don't even figure in my reality.

Understood - I assumed that. Small press is small press, after all - I'd have been utterly shocked if you had. So far your references to small press games - at least the ones I have read - have been made with such venom and contempt, without regard to singling out particular publishers or authors in that diverse group, that I considered my games beneath your notice by definition. Thus my comment.

Quote from: RPGPunditOf course, if you really wanted to you could take steps to change that.

RPGPundit

I'd be happy to. Tell me how, and it will be done. I answer PMs if you'd prefer.

-clash

Quote from: Clinton R. NixonPundit,

First, I'll admit that I'm a strict moralist, so my statements often come out pretty strong to people in today's world of moral relativism.

Why do I feel it's immoral? I believe that creators have the right to decide how their creation is shared with others. (This is different from thinking creators have the right to decide what you do with their work, which is just stupid.) I'm a big proponent of the open-source software and Creative Commons movements. What I believe that a lot of the cretins in those movements don't get, however, is that mutual respect is the key to opening people's minds. By respecting the copyright of others' work, even if I think they make a poor decision by closing off the work to others, I help establish a mutuality where they respect my decision to share my work under certain terms.

Breaking copyright eliminates that mutuality and breaks down the primary motivator for creatives: respect.

So let us look at a certain scenario:

Jim owns the Sgt.Pepper album, which he bought at a store for $18 (even though the cd costs less than a dollar to make, and the original artists are getting only pennies from that sale, the store is getting about $4, and a gang of fat fucking parasites in suits are getting the remaining $12.95 as pure profit for a product they had FUCK ALL to do with in any constructive sense).
His buddy Bob can't afford to buy the Sgt. Pepper album, meaning he doesn't have the chance to enjoy it, which is tantamount to a crime against the human spirit.
So Jim makes a tape of the Sgt.Pepper album, so that bob will have one too.

Is that immoral? Is it a lack of respect for the original creator's intentions? Somehow I really don't see John Lennon jumping to the defence of A Republican-voting RIAA fatcat being denied his "right" to earn $12.95 for doing no work. Somehow I don't think George Harrison would have sweated the fact that Bob can get a little beauty in his life, even though George's family won't get those extra three pennies.

I mean shit, we've had this debate before. Most of you might be too young to remember this, but the RIAA once tried desperately to make cassette tapes illegal in the 1970s, because they said making mix tapes was a violation of their copyright laws. They used the exact same fucking argument.  And the TV moguls tried to do the same thing with the VCR in the 1980s.
Why is it different when we do it on Napster? Other than the fact that between back then and now the corporate middlemen have become more powerful; and that between then and now people have apparently become more used to letting big business violate their human freedom and fuck them in the ass at will?

Do copyright owners have a fair right to have their copyright respected? ABSO-fucking-LUTELY.  They have a right to insure that if a gang of crooks try to make illegal copies FOR SALE of their works, those pirated copies should not be sold, and those Pirates prosecuted.
But free copying for personal use is not "piracy". Its just reproduction for personal use.

As long as Jim isn't SELLING that taped copy of Sgt.Pepper's to Jim, I don't think there's any room for the artist to claim the moral high ground; and there sure as fuck isn't room for the middleman corporate parasite to do so.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWeltIt is simply immoral to take the work of another and decide to distribute it however you please. Both as a consumer of P2P networks and as a host of one. It amounts to stealing and nothing less. If you are doing your won mix tape that is made from music you legally purchased and for your personal use, this perfectly acceptable. If you want to make a thousand copies of an album for personal use, again no problem.

Unless you're talking about a P2P program that CHARGES people for its use, that's exactly what P2P does, and nothing more. Its not real Piracy.
Its definitely not stealing. Again; if someone copies the D&D PHB, it doesn't make a D&D PHB on a shelf somewhere magically disappear and become unavailable for sale.

RPGPundit

Quote from: flyingmiceI'd be happy to. Tell me how, and it will be done. I answer PMs if you'd prefer.

-clash

Well, I've made a point of saying that any publisher who sends me sample copies of their products, I will put up a review of that product on my blog.

That's over 1200 people a day's worth of publicity.

Of course, the review might not be positive. It will be my honest opinion, and I usually try to point out the good and bad (unless a product is irredeemably bad). But regardless of good or bad it will still be attention.

PM me if you're interested.

RPGPundit

Those fat fucking parasites paid for a lot before Sgt Pepper hit the streets.  They paid for recording time.  They paid for practice time.  They paid for promotions.  They paid for production.

Ask any band who's still running off their own onesheets how much all that would be worth to them.  If the recording companies were nothing more than parasites that KILL our FUCKING SOULS MAN, then why are so many indie (real indie, still playing bars for free beer) bands cutting their fucking throats trying to get contracts?

Record companies are mostly fuckheads, and greedy fuckheads at that.  But they make their investments and are as entitled to the returns as anyone else who pours cash into a successful venture.  Doesn't make them nice, just makes them capitalists.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe point is we don't really know; we don't know with the music industry, so we sure as hell don't know with the gaming industry.

Given that we don't know one way or another, why should the default assumption be that it doesn't?

I mean, if we really want to do the right thing, and there's room for reasonable doubt, shouldn't we assume for the time being that it does have a negative effect, and act accordingly?

Quote from: RPGPunditUnless you're talking about a P2P program that CHARGES people for its use, that's exactly what P2P does, and nothing more. Its not real Piracy.
Its definitely not stealing. Again; if someone copies the D&D PHB, it doesn't make a D&D PHB on a shelf somewhere magically disappear and become unavailable for sale.

RPGPundit

I would include P2P networks that charge to be even more immoral than those that don't but both are in the wrong. IANAL so I do not care if I am using the proper terminology, Stealing/Copyright Infringement/Illegal Distribution. It does not matter what you call it. I will admit that others may wish to argue the semantics but it is of little import to me.

It boils down to if an artist makes a piece of art, it should be up to them how it is distributed. To make it personal, if I write a book about Roman History and you upload it to a P2P network, it is the same thing as taking my software I work on and distribute and sending free copies to all your friends. In essence, it is abridging my right to control my creation and that is terribly wrong in my book.

Downloading from such networks is only slightly less a transgression. It is the age old debate of "Is it wrong to buy stolen goods?" In this case, the downloaders know very well the sources of the files they download. Knowingly infringing on another persons rights is immoral IMHO.

Bill

Quote from: RPGPunditExcept file sharing doesn't do that. The fact that Jim has downloaded a copy of the D&D PHB onto his computer doesn't mean that there's suddenly magically one copy LESS of the PHB in someone's local gaming store, or even that the Wizards Online store now must sell one less copy of its PDF legally.
Contrary to what the parasites of the RIAA try to tell you, it is NOT theft. Its (illegal) reproduction. Which is different from theft.

Well true, but how does that change the fact that Jim now has a copy of the PHB he didn't pay for?

Quote from: RPGPunditHere in the third world, where its virtually impossible for most of the gamers I play with to get games, because (unlike me) they don't have an international credit card, and don't have the money to spend on shipping books from the states even if they did, file sharing is endemic. There's even a REAL piracy industry, not in the sense of just downloading, but dudes downloading the games and offering printed versions of the books for sale.

I don't consider that "wankery", I consider that a MASSIVE failure of the gaming industry to capitalize on a potentially huge market that is starved for gaming books.

RPGPundit

If they start selling those copies overseas for half the price, I'd bet that would wake some people up. :cool:

Quote from: fonkaygarryThose fat fucking parasites paid for a lot before Sgt Pepper hit the streets.  They paid for recording time.  They paid for practice time.  They paid for promotions.  They paid for production.

Ask any band who's still running off their own onesheets how much all that would be worth to them.  If the recording companies were nothing more than parasites that KILL our FUCKING SOULS MAN, then why are so many indie (real indie, still playing bars for free beer) bands cutting their fucking throats trying to get contracts?

Record companies are mostly fuckheads, and greedy fuckheads at that.  But they make their investments and are as entitled to the returns as anyone else who pours cash into a successful venture.  Doesn't make them nice, just makes them capitalists.

They're entitled to returns. They're not entitled to 1700% returns for all eternity while the artist earns peanuts, and then to subsequently complain when people aren't buying as much as they used to.

RPGPundit

I have purchased a hard, physical, bound copy of every book I've ever used in a game.

With that said, I do grab the odd PDF to check out a book a little bit before making a purchase.  I won't use it for a game.  Not only do I find that impractical, but it tweaks my (admittedly weak) moral compass.  If I find it to be pretty damn cool, or plan to read more than a few pages of it, I'll order a copy off Amazon or whatever.  I know the legalities of the situation, but to me this feels like paging through a book in a bookstore before buying it.

I'll also download PDFs of books I legitimately own.  That way, I can do my game prep on the road with my laptop, or even at work during downtime.  I find it useful to have access to that information all at once without lugging around 20 lbs of books.  Ethically, I see no difference between this and scanning in my own electronic copy (which is permissible under fair use).

-O

In my experience...

1. Filesharing (and other means) seem to keep some old games alive that would otherwise disappear.
2. IP laws are fucked. I think we've pretty much entered the point where nothing can enter the public domain any more and even if stuff does someone who has staked a claim can wave the money bat around and act like they own it anyway.  The international complications despite the Berne convention are still nightmarish.
3. It's going to happen anyway.  I think the growth of the PDF movement shows some understanding, by some parties, that there's a demand there and some people can be won over to paying (less).
4. Most of those that download this stuff won't look at it too much, won't print it and probably won't use it.
5. Most of these people wouldn't pay for this stuff anyway.
6. Those who would might get exposed to something interesting.

My stuff has turned up on filesharing before and if anything it has brought me customers.  I have a paragraph about this piracy in anything I self produce.

Quote from: palehorseGiven that we don't know one way or another, why should the default assumption be that it doesn't?

I mean, if we really want to do the right thing, and there's room for reasonable doubt, shouldn't we assume for the time being that it does have a negative effect, and act accordingly?

Because most of the players involved equate "acting accordingly" with either trampling the rights of consumers with nonsense garbage like DRM, or persecuting soccer moms with 12 years in jail for having a spice girls song on her daughter's PC.

That's not accordant action, that's repression and abuse.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditBecause most of the players involved equate "acting accordingly" with either trampling the rights of consumers with nonsense garbage like DRM, or persecuting soccer moms with 12 years in jail for having a spice girls song on her daughter's PC.

That's not accordant action, that's repression and abuse.

RPGPundit

I'd like to think that "acting accordingly" could also include things like simply not doing it until we can find out with a little more certainty whether or not it's impacting sales one way or another.

Quote from: HinterWeltI would include P2P networks that charge to be even more immoral than those that don't but both are in the wrong. IANAL so I do not care if I am using the proper terminology, Stealing/Copyright Infringement/Illegal Distribution. It does not matter what you call it. I will admit that others may wish to argue the semantics but it is of little import to me.

Only its not a "semantic" difference. Its a REAL difference.

If Da Vinci paints the Mona Lisa, and someone robs it from the Louvre, that's THEFT.
If Da Vinci paints the Mona Lisa, someone else paints a copy and tries to claim its the original, or sells said copy without paying Da Vinci for it, that's PIRACY.
If Da Vinci paints the Mona Lisa, and an art student comes up to the painting and copies it with no intention of selling it, that's reproduction, NOT theft or piracy; EVEN if said art student then gives away that copy to a friend.

QuoteDownloading from such networks is only slightly less a transgression. It is the age old debate of "Is it wrong to buy stolen goods?"

Sure, its exactly like that; except that they aren't stolen and no one is buying them.
So its actually nothing like that at all.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Mystery ManI won't condem nor condone file sharing. It seems a lot like jerking off to me. Everyone does it at least once, but they never talk about it.

If you've only jerked off once, you were doing it wrong.

Quote from: RPGPunditOnly its not a "semantic" difference. Its a REAL difference.

If Da Vinci paints the Mona Lisa, and someone robs it from the Louvre, that's THEFT.
If Da Vinci paints the Mona Lisa, someone else paints a copy and tries to claim its the original, or sells said copy without paying Da Vinci for it, that's PIRACY.
If Da Vinci paints the Mona Lisa, and an art student comes up to the painting and copies it with no intention of selling it, that's reproduction, NOT theft or piracy; EVEN if said art student then gives away that copy to a friend.

Except that Da Vinci isn't selling multiple copies of his Mona Lisa.

BIG difference.

Quote from: JongWKExcept that Da Vinci isn't selling multiple copies of his Mona Lisa.

  It's a completely erroneous set of comparissons.  The whole point about file-sharing and the current debate about copyright is that the details of the activity are completely different.

  In traditional theft you have someone making something and then someone else coming along, stealing it and not only making money out of it but depriving the person who put the effort into making something from the money that they are due.

  In the digital world, someone makes something.  It is then replicated and some people acquire replicated versions rather than buying the original.  So the person doing the acquiring is not making any money from the process and the original person who put the effort in is still free to sell what they made.

  The whole POINT is that 17th century conceptions of private property don't apply in a world where ownership is not a zero sum game.

  I've used P2P to acquire digital copies of games I've already owned but I don't go looking for things online because they never have anything interesting and besides which I've got better things to do with my time than read RPG material.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat are your opinions on it?

For legal reasons, this site can't allow for information regarding how to fileshare to advertised on the forum, but we can have a robust discussion about the issue, as it pertains to RPGs.

RPGPundit

I am against it, I think it's wrong and it's disrespectful to the designer.  Anyone who uses pirated material (downloaded commercial material that wasn't purchased through rpgnow or drivethrurpg or elsewhere IE isn't legit) isnt welcome at my game table and will be shunned until such time as they purchase a legal copy.

It's 2006, the consumer’s still pissed
Won't take it anymore so I’m writing a list
Don't try to resist this paradigm shift
The music revolution cannot be dismissed
$18.98 Iggy Pop CD?
What if I can get it from my sister for free?
It’s all about marketing Clive Davis, see?
If fans buy the shirt then they get the mp3
Music was a product now it is a service
Major record labels why are you trying to hurt us?
Epic’s up in my face like, “Don’t steal our songs Lars,”
While Sony sells the burners that are burning CD-R’s
So Warner, EMI, hear me clearly
Universal Music, update your circuitry
They sue little kids downloading hit songs
They think that makes sense
When they know that it’s wrong

Hey Mr. Record Man
The joke’s on you
Running your label
Like it was 1992
Hey Mr. Record Man,
Your system can’t compete
It’s the New Artist Model
File transfer complete
Download this song!
Download this song!
Download this song!

I know I'm rhyming fast, but the message is clear
You don’t need a million dollars to launch a career
If your style is unique and you practice what you preach
Minor Threat and Jello both have things to teach!
I've got G5 production, concept videos
Touring with a laptop, rocking packed shows
The old-school major deal? It makes no sense
Indentured servitude, the costs are too immense!
Their finger’s in the dam but the crack keeps on growing
Can’t sell bottled water when it’s freely flowing
Record sales slipping, down 8 percent
Increased download sales, you can't prevent
Satellite radio and video games
Changed the terrain, it will never be same
Did you know in ten years labels won't exist?
Goodbye DVD’s, and compact disks!

Hey Mr. Record Man,
What's wrong with you
Still living off your catalogue
From 1982
Hey Mr. Record Man,
Your system can't compete
It's the new artist model
File transfer complete
Download this song!
Download this song!
Download this song!

You know, we just wanted a level playing field.
You’ve overcharged us for music for years, and now we’re
Just trying to find a fair balance. I hate to say it, but…
Welcome to the future.

Download this song!
Download this song!
Download this song!

Hey Mr. Record Man
The joke’s on you
Running your label
Like it was 1992
Hey Mr. Record Man,
Your system can’t compete
It’s the New Artist Model
File transfer complete

Quote from: RPGPunditOnly its not a "semantic" difference. Its a REAL difference.

If Da Vinci paints the Mona Lisa, and someone robs it from the Louvre, that's THEFT.
If Da Vinci paints the Mona Lisa, someone else paints a copy and tries to claim its the original, or sells said copy without paying Da Vinci for it, that's PIRACY.
If Da Vinci paints the Mona Lisa, and an art student comes up to the painting and copies it with no intention of selling it, that's reproduction, NOT theft or piracy; EVEN if said art student then gives away that copy to a friend.

I believe this is what is called a strawman argument and to be truthful, I cannot believe it is being used.

Simply, DaVinci's dead. I could care less about his works. I am not saying it is illegal, I will let courts decide that. I am saying it is immoral. If you upload, download or host file sharing that supports pirated material then you performing an immoral act. Why? Because you are taking an author's work and distributing it in a manner he does not approve. If the author approves and then uploads his file to the P2P networks there is no piracy going on and nothing is immoral. I would assume in that situation nothing illegal would be happening either but as I said, IANAL.

Now, as to your example. If the art student were to reproduce the Mona Lisa, even as a trace, it would still be his own work. He could distribute it as he wishes. It is different from taking a manuscript that I produce, spend money to put art in, write myself, do layout work, hire editors to proof and find ways to distribute it in a manner that will pay and putting it on a P2P network where anyone can download it. Again, more to my point would be to say I choose not to distribute my work in this manner. It is immoral, IMHO, to violate those wishes of any creator to serve the selfish desire of petty individuals.

Now, whether it is illegal is something I am not prepared to discuss right now.

Bill

Quote from: GRIMIn my experience...

1. Filesharing (and other means) seem to keep some old games alive that would otherwise disappear.
2. IP laws are fucked. I think we've pretty much entered the point where nothing can enter the public domain any more and even if stuff does someone who has staked a claim can wave the money bat around and act like they own it anyway.  The international complications despite the Berne convention are still nightmarish.
3. It's going to happen anyway.  I think the growth of the PDF movement shows some understanding, by some parties, that there's a demand there and some people can be won over to paying (less).
4. Most of those that download this stuff won't look at it too much, won't print it and probably won't use it.
5. Most of these people wouldn't pay for this stuff anyway.
6. Those who would might get exposed to something interesting.

My stuff has turned up on filesharing before and if anything it has brought me customers.  I have a paragraph about this piracy in anything I self produce.

My views are much along these lines with the caveat that I do believe it is immoral. I know that may seem contray but it is the difference between seeing reality and what you wish reality was.

Bill

If I'm not mistaken, if you publish a piece of music you do not enjoy the right to prevent it from being performed. Or even performed for recording and then sold. Also, while you are entitled to a royalty in these cases, you have no control over the amount.

I really don't see how creators' rights can be seen as a matter of first principle or natural law, as opposed to contract (though often implied).

Since RPGPundit stole the thread from rpg.net, we may as well have my post again, suitably edited to adjust for the different original post.

People are getting rather excited about the morality and legality of file-sharing. I don't really give a shit about that. Morality is arguable, the law is beyond my control (apart from letters to my MP, which I already wrote), all I care about now is whether it hurts the rpg industry, and stops me and important people like Clash from getting oodles of cash. It doesn't. It's harmless.

The reason is that there are two main types of file-sharing people: collectors, and poor people.

The simple fact is that things which people get for free, they tend not to use much at all. As an example, I had an article On Killing, hosted at a Millenium's End site. In 12 months it was downloaded over 2,000 times, and generated not one single comment or email, except from the site owner. It was free, so they felt they had to take it, along with thirty other files at the site - but they never read it.

I expanded it into Conflict, and a Person's Place In It, took it down from the ME site, and sold the expanded version on RPGNow for five bucks. In month or two it had sold about 50 copies (as far as I recall), and generated comments, reviews, mentions on several rpg discussion boards, several emails, and so on.

When people got it for free, they didn't bother reading it. "Hmmm, maybe later." When they'd paid even five bucks for it, they made the effort to read it because they wanted to get their money's worth.

I know several compulsive file-downloaders. They have entire game lines on their hard drive, and they don't GM, and hardly ever play, and certainly they never print the stuff out and use it in a game session. If there were no file-sharing, would these guys spend money on the things instead? Nope.

A few other file-downloaders I know are simply poor. can't afford a lot of books, but still want to game. Take file-sharing away from them, they wouldn't spend the money either, because they don't have any. These guys are the minority though, there are shitloads more collectors.

None of this has any bearing on whether file-sharing is immoral (I dunno, probably), or illegal (pretty much in all cases, yes). But that isn't relevant to the effects of file-sharing, whether it hurts the rpg industry. It doesn't, because file-sharers are mostly collectors who never read the thing anyway, so wouldn't buy it if there were no file-sharing, or they're poor people who won't have money simply because you stop them file-sharing.

I think file-sharing is probably a different question for the music industry, and I think it almost certainly doesn't help the software industry. But rpgs? Nah. Harmless.

Also, Dana Jorgensen here (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6318848&postcount=172) describes how he's using file-sharing piracy of his stuff as a tax dodge.

Quote from: DJorgensenI've been able to write off the losses at tax time every year for the better part of the decade, and the IRS hasn't had any issue with it thus far. And I've made the point of verifying that each year.

Obviously, the IRS is dumber than dingo shit, and actually believes all those mad collectors of stuff they never read would have bought the stuff if not for file-sharing. What fuckwits! Go Dana! Screw the IRS, screw the public of revenue for services! Woohoo! He must be a fucking libertarian.

I don't believe it costs anyone any money. I also believe that it can make money for a quality product. A gamer might respond so well to a well-done PDF that he decides he wants the hardcopy. He might begin to monitor that creator's other output and later encounter a product that he wants to buy. He might simply decide to give the creator some cash in order to encourage more such work in general.

So economically, I would catagorize its influence as either Neutral or Positive.

As for whether or not it is disrespectful to creators, that's their call. Considering that it's the way of the world now, though, I would suggest that it's probably more productive to not be too insulted by it. Excessive anger over something that can't be changed is immature and without utility. Plus, blood pressure meds are expensive. :)

As for the rest "Morality is arguable, the law is beyond my control" about sums it up for me, too.

"I know several compulsive file-downloaders. They have entire game lines on their hard drive, and they don't GM, and hardly ever play, and certainly they never print the stuff out and use it in a game session. If there were no file-sharing, would these guys spend money on the things instead? Nope."

I'm one of those, more or less.  I don't game regularly, I'm interested in comparing and contrasting the stuff that's available now with the much smaller set of stuff I could afford/had access to as a kid.  It's interesting, some of it's worth reading, some of it I'll probably never get around to reading, and some of it I like enough that if I see it for cheap I'll buy it even though I already have a printed copy.  I'm pretty comfortable with that approach though, if I'm being completely honest, I'd probably spend a very small amount of extra dollars on RPGs if I didn't have access to free downloads - though even then it would be on the second hand or mark down market, which confuses things.

I think, all else being equal, that I'd be a slightly better person if I didn't download anything, though I'd be less happy, or if I did as I do now but made a point of compensating the most deserving writers whose stuff I've got but never paid for.  Equally, I'd be a better person if I never ate battery eggs and if I sponsored a 3rd world child.  I think downlaoding is probably a small moral wrong, but it doesn't (as I do it) breach any absolute moral prohibition.

On the Beatles: pundit, you're wrong to look at the massive returns on that particular artisit and say that it's sufficiently unfair to justify piracy-  the economic model of record companies is that for every artist who succeeds spectacularly you get a couple of dozen who they loose money on.  Sgt Peppers isn't paying for the money spent on the beatles, it's paying for the money spent on the 29 guys you've never heard of.  You can't treat profits on smash hit records as unearned windfalls in an explicitly hit-driven industry, though that doesn't invalidate your other arguments.

You know, it's an interesting situation. I mean if you cannot afford to buy a game book because the government helped big biz ship your job off to a slave labor camp in china and you're working minimum wage and barely getting enough to eat, then you are not going to buy the game book so if you dl a copy you are not hurting anyone. Sure it's illegal, so fucking what? Slavery was legal once, it was once illegal for women to vote. The law changes at social whim. Downloading something you can't afford to buy doesn't hurt anyone.


And don't give me that conservative bullshit about how if you have the time to download you have time to look for a job, it's a load of bullshit when you live in a town where all the jobs have beren sent to china, india and messico to make a few corporate pigs richer while cutting the throats of tens of thousands of working people and their families.

NOW, if your financial situation improves and you have a book you downloaded and use, and like, you should buy it if you get to where you can afford it.

That's how I feel, no amount of neocon snarling about "If you can't afford it get a better job you bum!" will change it.

What really pisses me off is that the government lets big biz screw people with 4$ a gallon gasoline and that's fine. Big biz rips people off on some many issues I can't even count them all, but let soem kid fileshare in his basement and take a penny out of big biz's pocket and oh lawdy! Here come de police, here come de charges, here come de lawyers and here come de judge! (A minor tribute to Flip Wilson.)

Yeah, big biz screws people on gas, medicine and everthing else, and it's all good with the government. Some kids take a few pennies out of big biz's pocket and it's a fucking crimewave.

That's american justice for you.

QuoteThe simple fact is that things which people get for free, they tend not to use much at all. As an example, I had an article On Killing, hosted at a Millenium's End site. In 12 months it was downloaded over 2,000 times, and generated not one single comment or email, except from the site owner. It was free, so they felt they had to take it, along with thirty other files at the site - but they never read it.

I have to disagree with the idea that free = no perceived value.

X-Ray (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1802/) : Price: $0
Total Downloads: 29,258  —  Downloads this Week: 615
Plus about 5,000 downloads a month from my personal site...

I get a lot of comments and email from people all over the world.  The free articles I wrote for ALA and my site also generate tons on traffic, feedback, etc.

Quote from: HinterWeltSimply, DaVinci's dead. I could care less about his works.

Walt Disney's dead, too, man.

When Gygax and Arneson kick it, can I have all the free D&D downloads I want?

Quote from: YamoWalt Disney's dead, too, man.

When Gygax and Arneson kick it, can I have all the free D&D downloads I want?

Morally and as far as I am concerned, if they are the only creators of the work, yes. Legally, IANAL, I would guess no.

Bill

Quote from: JimBobOzSince RPGPundit stole the thread from rpg.net,

Pundit didn't "Steal" the thread since it doesnt deprive anyone at rpg.net a thread.   He simply shared it :D

Quote from: jrientsAnd I like it when I can support good designers so they produce more material.  I'm one of those crazy cats who sent Vincent Baker a check during the time when he was sending out copies of kpfs for free with a little note "if you like it, maybe send me a fiver".  Did Baker need the $6.66 I sent him?  Probably not, but if I get to choose I want game designers encouraged by sales revenue rather than discouraged by seeing people swiping their stuff.

Quote from: fonkaygarryHowever, anything that breaks the economic chain for good product is a bad thing in my eyes.  Mike Mearls makes good product (for example), therefore I want Mike Mearls to earn as much money for his efforts as the market will give him, giving him reason to make more good product.

I would be more likely to be willing to pay full price, or closer to full price, if I knew that the extra was going to the writer.  I've picked up a few used books that were good enough that I wished I knew an address so I could send a couple bucks to the writers directly. :)

Quote from: HinterWeltI believe this is what is called a strawman argument and to be truthful, I cannot believe it is being used.

Simply, DaVinci's dead.

So's Walt Disney, and yet it seems that thanks to him, a massive corporation is making sure that absolutely nothing will ever enter into the public domain again, ever.
So we'll all be expected to keep paying massive corporations billions of dollars so their CEOs can get rich off of the creative genius of people who died decades (and eventually, centuries) ago.
These shitheads shouldn't be complaining, they should be amazed that no one has strung them up by their own intestines yet.

QuoteWhy? Because you are taking an author's work and distributing it in a manner he does not approve. If the author approves and then uploads his file to the P2P networks there is no piracy going on and nothing is immoral. I would assume in that situation nothing illegal would be happening either but as I said, IANAL.

Now, as to your example. If the art student were to reproduce the Mona Lisa, even as a trace, it would still be his own work. He could distribute it as he wishes. It is different from taking a manuscript that I produce, spend money to put art in, write myself, do layout work, hire editors to proof and find ways to distribute it in a manner that will pay and putting it on a P2P network where anyone can download it. Again, more to my point would be to say I choose not to distribute my work in this manner. It is immoral, IMHO, to violate those wishes of any creator to serve the selfish desire of petty individuals.
Bill

What about individuals who couldn't possibly buy your books otherwise?

RPGPundit

Not to mention that somewhere, someone down the line PAID for that original copy that ends up on the P2P; unless you're assuming that the dude shoplifted the CD or book.

You don't "rent" a song, or a gamebook. You BUY it. After that you have the right to make as many copies as you want. Millions, if you want. As long as you don't actually SELL any of those copies. Its not piracy.

Those of you who say its about the creator's right to distribute his work as he sees fit: he IS. He chose to sell a copy of his book. After that, the person he SOLD that book to can do whatever he wants with it, except fraudulently claim it as his own work or sell copies.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYou don't "rent" a song, or a gamebook. You BUY it. After that you have the right to make as many copies as you want. Millions, if you want. As long as you don't actually SELL any of those copies. Its not piracy.

Those of you who say its about the creator's right to distribute his work as he sees fit: he IS. He chose to sell a copy of his book. After that, the person he SOLD that book to can do whatever he wants with it, except fraudulently claim it as his own work or sell copies.

It appears you're trying to talk law. You're wrong.

Read what I wrote: "copyright" is quite literally the right to make copies. Whether you sell the copy for $10, pass it over for free, or even whether you pay someone $50 to read it is irrelevant under the law of copyright; though it'd be relevant in a civil case's settlement (you can't give a share/all of the profits if you didn't make any.. there'd just be plain old punitive damages). If you distribute the copies, you have violated the person's copyright.

That's the law.

What the morality is, that's another matter. But since you made such a big deal of following the law in your first post, I thought you might be interested in it.

COPYRIGHT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COPYRIGHT OWNER'S RIGHT TO MAKE MONEY.

I know it's easy to be confused about this, since so many copyright owners argue that as the issue, offering parallels with outright burglary and so on. But that's not the law about copyright as such.

As always, RPGPundit, you need to read more, and type less: copyright is the right to make copies. If it's your creation, you get to decide how it'll be presented and distributed. The law is indeed that you can make copies of stuff you've bought; you just can't pass them on to anyone else. For the purposes of copyright law, it is not actually a "copy" unless it's distributed.

Profit ain't got nothin' to do with it. I can stop you reproducing and selling my stuff, even if you're going to give every penny to me, and I'm dead broke. It's mine to do with as I see fit.

That's the law. Don't like it? Write your MP.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo's Walt Disney, and yet it seems that thanks to him, a massive corporation is making sure that absolutely nothing will ever enter into the public domain again, ever.
So we'll all be expected to keep paying massive corporations billions of dollars so their CEOs can get rich off of the creative genius of people who died decades (and eventually, centuries) ago.
These shitheads shouldn't be complaining, they should be amazed that no one has strung them up by their own intestines yet.

This really is not what I am talking about. I appreciate it is what you are talking about but I have no response since this is about the laws. On purely a moral ground, I think that a copyright should expire with the author. I do not know enough about copyright law to have an informed opinon on the legal aspect. I doubt many on this board do.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat about individuals who couldn't possibly buy your books otherwise?

RPGPundit

Then too bad? There are many things in this life a person may not be able to afford. Food, housing and medical care come to mind as ranking far higher than a game. If I was selling insulin and I asked people to pay more than they could for my product...yeah, I am a despicable. If I am a writer and I ask that the public pay a far price for my hard work...how am I a bad guy again?

Bill

Quote from: JimBobOzSnip of good points...
Profit ain't got nothin' to do with it. I can stop you reproducing and selling my stuff, even if you're going to give every penny to me, and I'm dead broke. It's mine to do with as I see fit.

This is my understanding of US copyright law as well.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltThis really is not what I am talking about. I appreciate it is what you are talking about but I have no response since this is about the laws. On purely a moral ground, I think that a copyright should expire with the author. I do not know enough about copyright law to have an informed opinon on the legal aspect. I doubt many on this board do.

Then too bad?

Bill

"Too bad" just doesn't cut it sometimes.....

Also, the only possible way to stop file sharing would be to regulate the ninternet to the point no transaction could occur on it without big biz and it's pet government knowing about it, turning the internet into a giant grey concrete mall with constant surveillance. Fuck that, it's a cure worse than the disease.

I'd rather live in a worlds where big biz loses a few cents to file sharing (Boo hoo. How much do they care when they're overcharging for medicine or sending jobs overseas and putting american workers into poverty?) than live in a world where filke sharing was made impossible by total control of the internet.

Quote from: RPGPunditNot to mention that somewhere, someone down the line PAID for that original copy that ends up on the P2P; unless you're assuming that the dude shoplifted the CD or book.

You don't "rent" a song, or a gamebook. You BUY it. After that you have the right to make as many copies as you want. Millions, if you want. As long as you don't actually SELL any of those copies. Its not piracy.

Those of you who say its about the creator's right to distribute his work as he sees fit: he IS. He chose to sell a copy of his book. After that, the person he SOLD that book to can do whatever he wants with it, except fraudulently claim it as his own work or sell copies.

RPGPundit

Pundy's right on this. When I buy a CD or a book, I pay a SALES tax, not a 'lease' tax, so I have BOUGHT the item, not leased it.

As to the "agreements" that we must click on to get some things, like software, to work, those are invalid AFAIC as we really have no valid choice but to click on them or just be out the money we spent on buying the software since most places don;t take software back.

One other note about filesharing: it's a way for people to fuck big biz and the system for a change, and damn, it feels good to dish it out for a change.

Quote from: Dominus Nox"Too bad" just doesn't cut it sometimes.....

Also, the only possible way to stop file sharing would be to regulate the ninternet to the point no transaction could occur on it without big biz and it's pet government knowing about it, turning the internet into a giant grey concrete mall with constant surveillance. Fuck that, it's a cure worse than the disease.

I'd rather live in a worlds where big biz loses a few cents to file sharing (Boo hoo. How much do they care when they're overcharging for medicine or sending jobs overseas and putting american workers into poverty?) than live in a world where filke sharing was made impossible by total control of the internet.

You know, I sometimes feel like I am not part of the conversation and people have an auto-response system. "Can I get a list of the words that set you off Brother?"  

I am not saying file sharing will ever stop. As a business man, I am very pragmatic about it. It will continue despite any efforts on the part of any organization.

As for my "Too Bad" statement...well, yes, it is too bad. If you are so poor you cannot afford a $20-40 purchase once a month FOR A LEISURE ITEM then you have big problems and should be looking at how you will feed yourself. In the end, I do not condone rationalizing immoral acts with poverty. I came from a dirt poor family. My parents could not pay one cent for college. They fell below the poverty line for a family of 3 and we had five people in our family. I know poor. At no point did my father or mother say, "It's o.k to steal because we are poor". I use stealing here as an example of commiting an immoral act not as a comparison. That seems to be what you are saying. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Bill

Quote from: JimBobOzIt appears you're trying to talk law. You're wrong.

Read what I wrote: "copyright" is quite literally the right to make copies. Whether you sell the copy for $10, pass it over for free, or even whether you pay someone $50 to read it is irrelevant under the law of copyright; though it'd be relevant in a civil case's settlement (you can't give a share/all of the profits if you didn't make any.. there'd just be plain old punitive damages). If you distribute the copies, you have violated the person's copyright.

That's the law.

What the morality is, that's another matter. But since you made such a big deal of following the law in your first post, I thought you might be interested in it.

COPYRIGHT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COPYRIGHT OWNER'S RIGHT TO MAKE MONEY.

I know it's easy to be confused about this, since so many copyright owners argue that as the issue, offering parallels with outright burglary and so on. But that's not the law about copyright as such.

As always, RPGPundit, you need to read more, and type less: copyright is the right to make copies. If it's your creation, you get to decide how it'll be presented and distributed. The law is indeed that you can make copies of stuff you've bought; you just can't pass them on to anyone else. For the purposes of copyright law, it is not actually a "copy" unless it's distributed.

Profit ain't got nothin' to do with it. I can stop you reproducing and selling my stuff, even if you're going to give every penny to me, and I'm dead broke. It's mine to do with as I see fit.

That's the law. Don't like it? Write your MP.

The law is pretty irrelevant in this case, given that it hasn't worked that way in reality for decades. It didn't work that way with the audio tape recorder, with the VCR, and it isn't working that way with the internet.

And lets face it, its like you said; no one on the corporate side is talking about principles here, they're all talking about profits.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWeltThen too bad? There are many things in this life a person may not be able to afford. Food, housing and medical care come to mind as ranking far higher than a game. If I was selling insulin and I asked people to pay more than they could for my product...yeah, I am a despicable. If I am a writer and I ask that the public pay a far price for my hard work...how am I a bad guy again?

Bill

Oh, I'd say you're not a bad guy.
But I'd also say that someone from a third-world country who could never be your customer anyways, wouldn't be a "bad guy" for choosing to download your book rather than never getting to read it otherwise by mere virtue of where he was born (and how poor he is, though often the first is as much a factor; there's tons of people here who could afford and would love to buy the more affordable RPG products, if only the RPG companies would deign to sell it to them).
And if you got all offended at said person for choosing to read your book rather than never get to read your book ever through no fault of their own, I'd say you're kind of a dick.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWeltAs for my "Too Bad" statement...well, yes, it is too bad. If you are so poor you cannot afford a $20-40 purchase once a month FOR A LEISURE ITEM then you have big problems and should be looking at how you will feed yourself. In the end, I do not condone rationalizing immoral acts with poverty. I came from a dirt poor family. My parents could not pay one cent for college. They fell below the poverty line for a family of 3 and we had five people in our family. I know poor. At no point did my father or mother say, "It's o.k to steal because we are poor". I use stealing here as an example of commiting an immoral act not as a comparison. That seems to be what you are saying. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Bill

Except, again, its not stealing, its copying. If they were never going to buy the product from you in the first place, and their copy doesn't magically remove a copy of your product from the shelf, then they aren't actually stealing.

Again, in the third world, "poverty" is only half the problem. I know plenty of folks here who earn a middle-class lifestyle here (which would be about $800US a month), something that would technically allow them to buy one or two gaming books a month.  But not if that included the exhorbitant shipping and tariff fees for importing the product from the US, because NO ONE (not even Wizards) actually sells game books in Uruguay.
And though many of them have computers, buying PDFs online is practically impossible as well, because the online payment sites refuse to accept latinamerican-issued Visas or Mastercards (I bet you didn't know that those credit card companies issue "special" versions of their cards in third world countries, versions that do not have most of the privileges of normal cards).

So even people who could in theory buy game books are left with NO option but to either a) buy from pirates, or b) download the pdf themselves through File Sharing.

Never mind that after that you have the folks that really literally can't afford to buy a game book. We're talking about people here in the third world who earn maybe $200US a month, or less. Should their poverty mean they can't play RPGs, or do you just think that they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the same RPGs that those of us "monied" people enjoy?

Meanwhile, there's also the kids in both the 3rd and 1st world, kids we DESPERATELY need in the RPG hobby, who are unable or unwilling to spend over $100 to get into gaming, but might easily become valuable additions to gaming many years down the road.

Again, just like with the recording industry, the gaming industry has themselves at least in part to blame for the filesharing phenomenon. They don't market to third world countries; and they choose to make Ultra-expensive products for nerd Collectors, instead of affordable gaming products for people who can't go around spending $50-100 per book no matter how glossy or full-colour it is, and just want to be able to have rules to Roleplay with.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditExcept, again, its not stealing, its copying. If they were never going to buy the product from you in the first place, and their copy doesn't magically remove a copy of your product from the shelf, then they aren't actually stealing.

Again, in the third world, "poverty" is only half the problem. I know plenty of folks here who earn a middle-class lifestyle here (which would be about $800US a month), something that would technically allow them to buy one or two gaming books a month.  But not if that included the exhorbitant shipping and tariff fees for importing the product from the US, because NO ONE (not even Wizards) actually sells game books in Uruguay.
And though many of them have computers, buying PDFs online is practically impossible as well, because the online payment sites refuse to accept latinamerican-issued Visas or Mastercards (I bet you didn't know that those credit card companies issue "special" versions of their cards in third world countries, versions that do not have most of the privileges of normal cards).

So even people who could in theory buy game books are left with NO option but to either a) buy from pirates, or b) download the pdf themselves through File Sharing.

Never mind that after that you have the folks that really literally can't afford to buy a game book. We're talking about people here in the third world who earn maybe $200US a month, or less. Should their poverty mean they can't play RPGs, or do you just think that they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the same RPGs that those of us "monied" people enjoy?

Meanwhile, there's also the kids in both the 3rd and 1st world, kids we DESPERATELY need in the RPG hobby, who are unable or unwilling to spend over $100 to get into gaming, but might easily become valuable additions to gaming many years down the road.

Again, just like with the recording industry, the gaming industry has themselves at least in part to blame for the filesharing phenomenon. They don't market to third world countries; and they choose to make Ultra-expensive products for nerd Collectors, instead of affordable gaming products for people who can't go around spending $50-100 per book no matter how glossy or full-colour it is, and just want to be able to have rules to Roleplay with.

RPGPundit

Hey Pundy!

We agree completely on this issue.

Are you as scared as I am?:discoball:


(BTW, for those of you who don't get why I put a disco ball smiley after the part about being scared, well, honestly, isn't disco pretty scary?)

Man, what the fuck?

Now you're on the side of the poor oppressed game-less masses? Yes, that's just what the impoverished people living in the shanty towns around Lagos need - a pdf version of an rpg!

If people can't afford to buy an rpg, they can't afford an internet connection, so they can't download pirated stuff anyway.

It's not the impoverished masses of Nigeria or Burma downloading rpgs from p2p networks, it's middle-classed American, Aussie and UK kids, sucking it down along with their pr0n. If they can't afford to buy an rpg, it's because they spent their allowance at McDs.

It doesn't matter, anyway. At the same time as Johnny is downloading his scanned copy of d20 101 Magical Doorknobs, he's downloading Bisexual Pissing Orgy #8. While he's tugging away, it says "download finished" for the pdf. He's not going to stop in mid-wank to look at any rpg. He continues tossing off, messes up his keyboard, and forgets he ever download the pdf.

If you can afford an internet connection, you can afford rpgs. It's just a matter of whether you spent that money already on McDs and the PS3000 or whatever. Computer-mediated piracy of stuff is a middle-classed Western world kid's lark. Your impoverished Third World masses, geez...

"Sorry Mtumbe, I can't help you look through the rubbish tip this afternoon for tin cans, I'm off to the cyber-cafe to download Exalted."
"You, too? Man, my sister was supposed to be hoeing the beans this afternoon, instead she's off downloading Blue Rose. Frickin' rpgs."

Quote from: JimBobOzMan, what the fuck?

It's not the impoverished masses of Nigeria or Burma downloading rpgs from p2p networks, it's middle-classed American, Aussie and UK kids, sucking it down along with their pr0n. If they can't afford to buy an rpg, it's because they spent their allowance at McDs.

off-topic sorry, but classes are slightly different in the UK.

99% of UK people are working class
0.8% are middle class
0.2% are upper class

Quote from: Lawbag99% of UK people are working class
0.8% are middle class
0.2% are upper class

  That's not even remotely true.

Man, I would like to see some sort of stats on that.  Because right now you have me imagining your whole island as a Dickensian nightmare of smokestacks and the coal-streaked faces of youngsters being forced back down into the mines by Prime Minister (now Baroness) Thatcher.  And I can't imagine that sort of change in the few years since I've been there. :)

Quote from: Lawbagoff-topic sorry, but classes are slightly different in the UK.

99% of UK people are working class
0.8% are middle class
0.2% are upper class

As mentioned before not even remotely true.

2003 census data (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBASE/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=7665), puts more than 30% in managerial and professional occupations, which makes them middle class or better.

If anything, I'd say that the middle class practically outnumber the traditional working class.  Between the death of the British manufacturing sector, people buying their old council homes and the explosion in the numbers of university students the UK has undergone, since the 1970's a massive process of embourgeoisement.

If the country really was 99% working class then we'd have gigantic unemployment because the number of traditional working class jobs shrinks every year.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat are your opinions on it?

I don't feel that it is inherently wrong, but it is wrong to break the law, and so it is wrong as long as the law forbids it.

If I was an enterprising rpg company I would hire these pirateers (in the third world) with their fancy printing equipment to print my books, sell them for me, and share the profit. If that sort of thing would get around all of the b.s. customs and international charges that is.

Keep in mind that comment is off the cuff and not at all thought thru being completely ignorant of how things are done out of the country and I don't know if that would make a dent in all of the sticky keyboards out there.

:emot-fap:

Quote from: Mystery ManIf I was an enterprising rpg company I would hire these pirateers (in the third world) with their fancy printing equipment to print my books, sell them for me, and share the profit. If that sort of thing would get around all of the b.s. customs and international charges that is.

Keep in mind that comment is off the cuff and not at all thought thru being completely ignorant of how things are done out of the country and I don't know if that would make a dent in all of the sticky keyboards out there.

:emot-fap:

It is an interesting concept, I wonder if local printing would get around it... :hmm:

To try to clarify Pundit for those who haven't read a number of his blog posts/rants :D (I enjoy them, but don't know that I'd call myself a proxie) He is mixing issues without mentioning the topic changes (though the issues are related) and it is causing confusion I believe.

There are three threads going with Pundit's arguments, (imho)

We have the file sharing issue,
the issue that game companies don't seem to consider South America a market work thier time,
and the lack of a good solid inexpensive rpg for new gamers.

(we know that Pundit is working on a product of his own to try to cover the last two)

Hopefully that will help clarify things, I would deffinitly be interested in reading a thread on the pros/cons of marketing in South America, particularly the idea of having things localy produced.

I didn't see any other threads, so I started one.

Game Companies selling/marketing in South America
http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=27745

Quote from: JimBobOz"Sorry Mtumbe, I can't help you look through the rubbish tip this afternoon for tin cans, I'm off to the cyber-cafe to download Exalted."
"You, too? Man, my sister was supposed to be hoeing the beans this afternoon, instead she's off downloading Blue Rose. Frickin' rpgs."

You've never been to South America, right? :rolleyes:

Quote from: JongWKYou've never been to South America, right? :rolleyes:

I think it's a safe guess. :D  I'm also thinking that he is mixing South America with parts of Asia and Africa.

My take on filesharing is pretty simple.
If I like it, I'll buy it. I haven't done it at all with RPG books. Although I might like to download a PDF of a book I've bought, so I can make player-printouts easier.
As for Music (hey I play music when I play RPG's...sometimes...)
If it's a band I've never heard of, or would like to hear more of. I'll generally check out their album through filesharing. If I dig the Album, I go out and buy it If I don't dig it, I delete it, maybe keeping the one song I like. I don't have a credit card so I can't buy singles on iTunes, or I would probably do that.

Quote from: RPGPunditExcept, again, its not stealing, its copying. If they were never going to buy the product from you in the first place, and their copy doesn't magically remove a copy of your product from the shelf, then they aren't actually stealing.

Sigh. You are either impossibly dense or purposely obtuse. JimBob said it much better than me, copying files/books/product for distribution is illegal. I am not arguing that is what file sharing is about but I am more concerned with the immorality of it since I truly believe that little can be done in reality.

Quote from: RPGPunditAgain, in the third world, "poverty" is only half the problem. I know plenty of folks here who earn a middle-class lifestyle here (which would be about $800US a month), something that would technically allow them to buy one or two gaming books a month.  But not if that included the exhorbitant shipping and tariff fees for importing the product from the US, because NO ONE (not even Wizards) actually sells game books in Uruguay.

Earlier, you espoused on the evil of "Big Corporate^TM". Distribution to Europe, which I handle often, is done through (primarily) one company, Esdevium. There are other (Spiel in Germany and another Italian one) but it is mainly Esdevium. If I did not have Esdevium to deal with I would probably have to charge $12 in shipping just to get my smallest book (Squirrel Attack!) to the U.K. I have infact had todo this for customers in Scotland and England with the books costing close to Twice their MSRP. Not cool. Alternatively, they can go down to their local shop and pick one up for about 10% over MSRP now. Other book are right on the MSRP since I work with POD companies in Europe to print there.

In the end, I would suggest (and I have no information on this) looking at the infrastructure of South America and how much of a market there is for RPGs. "You know a lot of Gamers" does not cut it. You are talking international business with a large amount of expenses and risk. Generally, if you do not have a market for product, no one will develop it.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd though many of them have computers, buying PDFs online is practically impossible as well, because the online payment sites refuse to accept latinamerican-issued Visas or Mastercards (I bet you didn't know that those credit card companies issue "special" versions of their cards in third world countries, versions that do not have most of the privileges of normal cards).

Actually I did. I owned and operated a chain of game stores in the nineties that did a great deal of internation shipping. Two areas I eventually had to stop dealing with was South America and a lot of South East Asia.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo even people who could in theory buy game books are left with NO option but to either a) buy from pirates, or b) download the pdf themselves through File Sharing.

I refuse to equate a leisure item with a staple to live. You always have options even if that option is to not do something and maintain a moral lifestyle. If you want something it does not mean you always get it.

Quote from: RPGPunditNever mind that after that you have the folks that really literally can't afford to buy a game book. We're talking about people here in the third world who earn maybe $200US a month, or less. Should their poverty mean they can't play RPGs, or do you just think that they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the same RPGs that those of us "monied" people enjoy?

It is a leisure item, not medicine or food. This entire argument is rediculous levels of hyperbole. They can play RPGs. When I was young my parents gave us kids baseball gloves for Christmas. They could not afford a bat or ball (yeah, we were that poor) so we improvised. We used a fence brace and a ball of twine. We had a lot of fun. Poverty never excuses immorality.

Quote from: RPGPunditMeanwhile, there's also the kids in both the 3rd and 1st world, kids we DESPERATELY need in the RPG hobby, who are unable or unwilling to spend over $100 to get into gaming, but might easily become valuable additions to gaming many years down the road.

You really do not understandhow business works do you? I really am not trying to be condescending but the above statement reads like some 16 year olds manifesto for world peace. See my statements above about distribution networks. Alternatively, you could organize a NFP RPG relief organization that takes remainders from RPG publishers and ships them to third world countries. I have participated in several that shipped books to schools in the Carribean.

Quote from: RPGPunditAgain, just like with the recording industry, the gaming industry has themselves at least in part to blame for the filesharing phenomenon. They don't market to third world countries; and they choose to make Ultra-expensive products for nerd Collectors, instead of affordable gaming products for people who can't go around spending $50-100 per book no matter how glossy or full-colour it is, and just want to be able to have rules to Roleplay with.

RPGPundit

Well, this "Dick" has been trying an affordable line of books. It has worked out well for us. Squirrel Attack! is 12.99 USD and its first supplement is only 7.99. I doubt there is a way to make those book much cheaper and still make a profit. Again, I think a big part of this is a lack of distribution infrastructure combined with a critical mass of consumers. Now, I can't argue with "I want a $100 Ptolus book fo $5" because it just aint gonna happen. That book probably cost 40-50 to print all by itself much less the publication costs.

Bill

Quote from: JimBobOzMan, what the fuck?

Now you're on the side of the poor oppressed game-less masses? Yes, that's just what the impoverished people living in the shanty towns around Lagos need - a pdf version of an rpg!

If people can't afford to buy an rpg, they can't afford an internet connection, so they can't download pirated stuff anyway.

Yarrr, that's where ye be wrong, landlubber. Around these here ports, the swathy sea-dogs will download their games at the local "cibers", where fer but ten pieces of eight an hour and a paltry twenty more for a CD, they can acquire books to their heart's content.

I nay be talkin about some jungle savages what sail in fisher-boats off the coast of the horn of africa, me hearty! I be talkin of educated people in the lower/"middle" classes of ye ports of ye River Plate, River wide as sea...

And these swabs be earnin some $200US a month or less, which seem a pittance to ye or me, but to them it be enough to pay their bills and have a jolly enough life, if humble; but not enough to warrant the letters of marque ye call "internationally certified credit cards", what be what ye need to buy goods online.  Nor be it enough to spend a jolly king's ransom of $70-80 fer a game book to be shipped down the atlantic coastline to Montevideo Port from the distant american colonies, yo-ho-ho!

Plus there be real pirates on those seas, and I be told in the offices of the Uruguayan post office, and the customs office, so it be an unsure purchase, what yer book may never come or be stopped by customs. Only if ye be a wise sea-dog with many a connection with the guvner's office, could ye easily bring books into this country! Yar har!

QuoteIt's not the impoverished masses of Nigeria or Burma downloading rpgs from p2p networks, it's middle-classed American, Aussie and UK kids, sucking it down along with their pr0n. If they can't afford to buy an rpg, it's because they spent their allowance at McDs.

Yar, aye, it be they too.. and while I agree with the cut of yer jib, that they be all soft fat little landlubbers what could do with six months at sea off the barbary coast as a cabin boy to some oversexed old sea Cap'n, that dinna change the fact that we need more people playing YARRRPGs, and if these scurvy lads would not have bought these books anyhow, I would rather that they be downloading them from a filesharer and playing, than that they be choosing to deep six any thought of taking up the hobby to be briny deep.  We be needing young seamen to join our hobby anyways we can, even if it be chain-ganging them. So if one of them will do it going on the account, then so be it, says I!

QuoteIf you can afford an internet connection, you can afford rpgs. It's just a matter of whether you spent that money already on McDs and the PS3000 or whatever. Computer-mediated piracy of stuff is a middle-classed Western world kid's lark. Your impoverished Third World masses, geez...

YAR; ye have a woman's assertion there, me bucko! Clearly yer assertion has never confronted the massive numbers of Brazilian and Argentine P2P servers! YAR har harhar..

YARRRPGPundit

Quote from: Mystery ManIf I was an enterprising rpg company I would hire these pirateers (in the third world) with their fancy printing equipment to print my books, sell them for me, and share the profit. If that sort of thing would get around all of the b.s. customs and international charges that is.  

YAR, me laddie! Now Here be someone what is thinking with his head! Ye've seen land ho, me bucko, and ye got clear sailing ahead!

If the addled fools what Cap'n the leaky boats of the modern gaming industry realized that they could make a huge market in the third world, and all they'd be needin is local contacts willing to do it, they could take these Pirates on teh account and make them Privateers in the service of their fair enterprise! YAR har har harrr!

The problem was that the foolish swabs at TSR, and later Wizards, sent over big hardcover D&D books, in essence the same PHB as ye see in the American colonies, but translated (and badly, say I) into spanish.
So they flubbed it all, me hearties.  Southamerican gamers want RPG books in English or in good spanish, not in bad translations. And many could not pay for a book what costs them $30-40 dollars, that be $1000 pieces of eight, when they only be earning $5000-10000 per month.  
But if these same game company enterprises were te sell them softcover books, in english or spanish, for $300 pieces of eight, then they would be selling faster than Missis Miggin's Meat Pies, say I! Yar har!

YARRRPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWeltIn the end, I would suggest (and I have no information on this) looking at the infrastructure of South America and how much of a market there is for RPGs. "You know a lot of Gamers" does not cut it. You are talking international business with a large amount of expenses and risk. Generally, if you do not have a market for product, no one will develop it.

Yar, believe me that I have looked into these things, laddy!
I give ye many a point why gaming could do well here IF the scurvy dogs in the gaming companies understood one crucial point: ye cannot just slap a spanish translation on yer glossy full-colour $50 hardcover and think that it will sell here like oranges on a poxy ship.

Nay, what ye need to see be this:
First, pokemon, magic and ye CCGs, blast their hides to a man-jack of them yo-ho, sell mightily well among the little swabs here.  There be just as much appeal for both game and fantasy in the ports of ye River Plate as there be in the American colonies or back in Old Blightey.
Second, there be a massive piracy market. Nuff said.
Third, over in Brazil there already be Brazilian gaming companies. Them portugues-es be makin games like 3D&T or "Tormenta", which they be selling in magazine format in kiosks fer between $5-10 per copy, and have had tremendous success!
There be no difference in the culture between the Brazilians and the cities of the River Plate, excepting that the former speak a different brand of daego-talk, avast!
But if anything, Buenos Aires or Montevideo Port or even Santiago Chile on the Pacific side would all be more natural candiates to have big gaming success, as ye so-called "Southern Cone" be the most prosperous of ye latinamerican nations, shiver me timbers!

QuoteI refuse to equate a leisure item with a staple to live. You always have options even if that option is to not do something and maintain a moral lifestyle. If you want something it does not mean you always get it.

Yar, I be seein it as more immoral that someone not be able to gain some bit of intellectual fulfillment, a BOOK, which in the end a gamebook be; or MUSIC, which in the end an mp3 be; cultural heritage, just because he be poor. In the end, I do not see the willful intellectual deprivation of a class of peoples to be a "moral" choice, me hearty.

I sees it as a tragedy of our modern world. Because it be perpetuating a system of educational and class differences that be causing more misery in this world than any swarthy pirate Cap'n could with even the largest of Corsairs!

QuoteIt is a leisure item, not medicine or food. This entire argument is rediculous levels of hyperbole. They can play RPGs. When I was young my parents gave us kids baseball gloves for Christmas. They could not afford a bat or ball (yeah, we were that poor) so we improvised. We used a fence brace and a ball of twine. We had a lot of fun. Poverty never excuses immorality.

Yar, I see it as just the opposite. Stealing, real theft, is immoral. Ye rob a piece of bread from a grocer and now that poor swab cannot sell that bread, and soon he will be just as poor as ye.
But Ye cannot call copying a book or copying a song THEFT.  It be not Piracy! Piracy be those of us who go on account on the high seas on a jollyboat and sail the spanish main hunting fer gold-boats! Or, alternately, it be them swarthy knaves what copy videos or music or gamebooks to sell cheap imitations in the street.  But it nay be a lanky cabinboy who downloads a book that he may read it, or a song that he may here it, so long as he nay sell it!

QuoteYou really do not understandhow business works do you? I really am not trying to be condescending but the above statement reads like some 16 year olds manifesto for world peace.

I be understanding that if the 16 year old downloader be reading books he copied today, there be a CHANCE that tomorrow he may be buying RPGs and becoming an upright gamer.
Whereas if said 16-year old dinna download and dinna buy, then he will NAY be a gamer, period.
I be caring not a piece of eight fer the short-term business of a company, since what that young laddie does, whether he download or nay, be not affecting yer company at all.  If he download, ye not get paid.
If he dinna download, ye not get paid.
It be the same, yo-ho-ho!

But if he download, perhaps in two or three years time, when the next season comes along and he strikes the high seas and comes back with enough gold in his pockets to buy the books he wants, he may become yer customer, or someone else's. And then he'll be a gamer, to boot! YAR HAR!

QuoteSee my statements above about distribution networks. Alternatively, you could organize a NFP RPG relief organization that takes remainders from RPG publishers and ships them to third world countries. I have participated in several that shipped books to schools in the Carribean.

Yar, it be nay "book charity" what the Carriby and the Southern Cone be needing, me bucko! It be gaming companies coming to sell their wares, but doing it smarty by understanding that they need ta change some of how they market their product to fit the realities of the third-world market.

Think of this, me hearty: pen-and-paper RPGs be the perfect game for the third world. It be a place where the average person STILL dinna have their own computer, and those what do own rickety little jollyboats what can barely manage dialup.  These swabs be nay capable of handling online-MMORPGs. And many lack the money for more expensive entertainments, like a right saucy wench, even though in these parts those fair beauties be also inexpensive!

So gaming be perfect for them: it takes no technology (aside the book, papers, pencils and dice), it cost no further monies beyond the cost of ye books (and dice, if ye be using silly polygonal dice, though the games what will have best success here will be games what use regular D6s, yar har!).

RPGs would be as natural a means of fun down here as the drinkin of grog and the singing of fair shanties, me bucko! Yar har!!

YARRRPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYar, believe me that I have looked into these things, laddy!
I give ye many a point why gaming could do well here IF the scurvy dogs in the gaming companies understood one crucial point: ye cannot just slap a spanish translation on yer glossy full-colour $50 hardcover and think that it will sell here like oranges on a poxy ship.

Nay, what ye need to see be this:
First, pokemon, magic and ye CCGs, blast their hides to a man-jack of them yo-ho, sell mightily well among the little swabs here.  There be just as much appeal for both game and fantasy in the ports of ye River Plate as there be in the American colonies or back in Old Blightey.
Second, there be a massive piracy market. Nuff said.
Third, over in Brazil there already be Brazilian gaming companies. Them portugues-es be makin games like 3D&T or "Tormenta", which they be selling in magazine format in kiosks fer between $5-10 per copy, and have had tremendous success!
There be no difference in the culture between the Brazilians and the cities of the River Plate, excepting that the former speak a different brand of daego-talk, avast!
But if anything, Buenos Aires or Montevideo Port or even Santiago Chile on the Pacific side would all be more natural candiates to have big gaming success, as ye so-called "Southern Cone" be the most prosperous of ye latinamerican nations, shiver me timbers!

Thank you for the information. However, by your own admission foreign companies would have problems competing with local companies for the two reasons you state:
1) a strong piracy market. Why pay when you can get it for free or cheaper.
2) It would be far too expensive to import and sell at an MSRP of $5-10 per unit.

Again, I am not saying impossible but it would be difficult and there are easier markets to be had. If WOTC is making money on Pokemon and their other properties I do not see why they would not expand into other product lines if they see it as profitable. Again, just because you see some kids buying a game does not mean it is a sustainable market. Not saying it isn't but the execs at WOTC are most likely the only ones who know.

Quote from: RPGPunditYar, I be seein it as more immoral that someone not be able to gain some bit of intellectual fulfillment, a BOOK, which in the end a gamebook be; or MUSIC, which in the end an mp3 be; cultural heritage, just because he be poor. In the end, I do not see the willful intellectual deprivation of a class of peoples to be a "moral" choice, me hearty.

Again, hypebole. There are plenty of sources, legal and moral, that people can access their OWN CULTURE's music. No one is denied their culture becuase they are poor. If you are poor, you may not have access to luxuries. If you are really poor you will not have necessities. I assume you are saying someone between needing necessities and wanting luxuries. It is a poor argument of the basest type to make a want into a need. Just because you want a new car does not mean you morally justified in shooting someone in the face and taking there. Whether it is so you can drive around with the wind in your hair or get back and forth to work to feed your family.

Quote from: RPGPunditI sees it as a tragedy of our modern world. Because it be perpetuating a system of educational and class differences that be causing more misery in this world than any swarthy pirate Cap'n could with even the largest of Corsairs!

Please. Class inequity has existed since before history was written. Again with the naive 16 year old view of the world.

Quote from: RPGPunditYar, I see it as just the opposite. Stealing, real theft, is immoral. Ye rob a piece of bread from a grocer and now that poor swab cannot sell that bread, and soon he will be just as poor as ye.
But Ye cannot call copying a book or copying a song THEFT.  It be not Piracy! Piracy be those of us who go on account on the high seas on a jollyboat and sail the spanish main hunting fer gold-boats! Or, alternately, it be them swarthy knaves what copy videos or music or gamebooks to sell cheap imitations in the street.  But it nay be a lanky cabinboy who downloads a book that he may read it, or a song that he may here it, so long as he nay sell it!

I get tired fo repeating myself and I am sure you are likewise. Let ius say that we disagree on this point. To me, it is illegal distribution and an infraction of the most personal nature against the creator of the work. FOr you, it seems to be little more than doing a backup...to a few thousand computers.

Quote from: RPGPunditI be understanding that if the 16 year old downloader be reading books he copied today, there be a CHANCE that tomorrow he may be buying RPGs and becoming an upright gamer.
Whereas if said 16-year old dinna download and dinna buy, then he will NAY be a gamer, period.
I be caring not a piece of eight fer the short-term business of a company, since what that young laddie does, whether he download or nay, be not affecting yer company at all.  If he download, ye not get paid.
If he dinna download, ye not get paid.
It be the same, yo-ho-ho!

But if he download, perhaps in two or three years time, when the next season comes along and he strikes the high seas and comes back with enough gold in his pockets to buy the books he wants, he may become yer customer, or someone else's. And then he'll be a gamer, to boot! YAR HAR!

This seems unlikely but I will yield the point. I think it more likely that if he gets all his gaming needs fulfilled through a FREE P2P network then he will continue to download those files for free. He may be forced to pay at some point but will most likely harbor resentment for what he believes to be "The Man" sticking it to him.

Also, let me say that my philosophical view does not influence what I see as my pragmatic view of the way P2P networks work. I do not think there are people who would have bought my books going to this networks. The people who go there will most likely not buy. This is not to say it does not stimulate sales. Again, getting the word out is good in most cases. However, this does not make it a moral act by my definitions.

Quote from: RPGPunditYar, it be nay "book charity" what the Carriby and the Southern Cone be needing, me bucko! It be gaming companies coming to sell their wares, but doing it smarty by understanding that they need ta change some of how they market their product to fit the realities of the third-world market.

Think of this, me hearty: pen-and-paper RPGs be the perfect game for the third world. It be a place where the average person STILL dinna have their own computer, and those what do own rickety little jollyboats what can barely manage dialup.  These swabs be nay capable of handling online-MMORPGs. And many lack the money for more expensive entertainments, like a right saucy wench, even though in these parts those fair beauties be also inexpensive!

So gaming be perfect for them: it takes no technology (aside the book, papers, pencils and dice), it cost no further monies beyond the cost of ye books (and dice, if ye be using silly polygonal dice, though the games what will have best success here will be games what use regular D6s, yar har!).

RPGs would be as natural a means of fun down here as the drinkin of grog and the singing of fair shanties, me bucko! Yar har!!

YARRRPGPundit

Oh, brother. So, there are all these file downloaders...with no technology. Nevermind. Putting aside the hypocrisy, I agree that PNP games are suited to poor children. It is one of the things that attracted me. My brother and I played on our AD&D books for years. We added some dice but they were a small enough expense we could pay for it out of the money we earned at odd jobs. This I have no problems with. The idea that some kid in a hut is downloading RPGs at a cybercafe so he can take it home (to his hut) and stare at the shiny disk is rather silly.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltThank you for the information. However, by your own admission foreign companies would have problems competing with local companies for the two reasons you state:
1) a strong piracy market. Why pay when you can get it for free or cheaper.
2) It would be far too expensive to import and sell at an MSRP of $5-10 per unit.

Yar, importing might be too expensive, I'll grant ye that. But ye could still import the main books of yer line in limited quantities for profit.  Anytime game books that were real, and nay of ye Pirate variety, have appeared in this fair port of La Ciudad Reconquistadora De Montevideo, they have sold faster than Missis Miggin's Beet and Barley Stew, by gum!

So there be a class that would be able to buy the regular books, in english even for tis a rare and rum fellow here who be a gamer and not read nor speak the King's English (and most prefer their gamebooks in english than ye poor flubbed translations), and that would all be well and good.
But the real trick would be ta print locally, paperback or magazine editions of yer book.  Look at this way, me bucko: a pirate, spiral-bound copy of ye Player's Handbook sells for $300 pieces of eight here, and ye could easily print a book here in uruguay (or in Argentina) that could sell retail for virtually ye same price (between 200-400 pieces of eight).

People, when they have the choice, would rather have ye real books! Indeed, I be the envy of many a scurvy knave here in the River Plate, for my fine collection of real gamebooks! Yar har!

QuoteAgain, I am not saying impossible but it would be difficult and there are easier markets to be had. If WOTC is making money on Pokemon and their other properties I do not see why they would not expand into other product lines if they see it as profitable.

The problem is WoTC (and all ye other gaming company landlubbers) have made a right fine mess of it, me lad! They tried to sell the RPGs in the same format and by the same means that they do in the American Colonies or Old Blightey or The Continent, but they knew not that here it be different, and different means be needed. For someone who did it right, there be great plunder to be had, by thunder!

QuoteAgain, hypebole. There are plenty of sources, legal and moral, that people can access their OWN CULTURE's music. No one is denied their culture becuase they are poor. If you are poor, you may not have access to luxuries. If you are really poor you will not have necessities. I assume you are saying someone between needing necessities and wanting luxuries. It is a poor argument of the basest type to make a want into a need.

Yar, I consider civilization a need, not a want. And it be a need not only for ye poor deckhands, but it be OUR need that they receive it easily, if we are ta maintain our civilization and create a better world, yo-ho-ho!

QuotePlease. Class inequity has existed since before history was written. Again with the naive 16 year old view of the world.

Yar, and I nay be denying that, ye scallywag! I be sayin, however, that we can make things better by making culture accesible! That's why this swarthy old salt be supporting the measure to make sure every child in the world could have access to ye internet, for example! Be it for learning, for porn, or for telling old sea tales on gaming fora, it be by makin universal the means of the promulgation of communication and our collective body of cultural heritage that we be helping combat the forces of ignorance, the scurviest of all the dark corsairs that sail the sea of humanity!
We must construct a new Polis, says I, and all people must be able to access it, yar har har!

QuoteI get tired fo repeating myself and I am sure you are likewise. Let ius say that we disagree on this point. To me, it is illegal distribution and an infraction of the most personal nature against the creator of the work. FOr you, it seems to be little more than doing a backup...to a few thousand computers.

Yar. For ye, perhaps it be personal because you see what ye think may be lost plunder and profit from the copying of yer fine products, I wager. Though I wager that in fact the real cost to ye is little if any.
To me it also be personal, because I have met in my time here many a fine seamen and gamers, who, were the forces of the Crown to stop file sharing, would never be able to have access to games at all, and that makes this old sea dog's heart sad to think it, for the loss would be all of ours.
Let me say too, when I plied the rivers of the North Saskatchewan, I thought a mighty different opinion on this whole issue, but living here in what ye knaves up there call the "third world" has strongly changed my mind, and turned me right around on the whole issue, by thunder! Yar har!

QuoteThis seems unlikely but I will yield the point. I think it more likely that if he gets all his gaming needs fulfilled through a FREE P2P network then he will continue to download those files for free. He may be forced to pay at some point but will most likely harbor resentment for what he believes to be "The Man" sticking it to him.

Nay, lad, nay. There may be some foul swabs who would be like that, perhaps, but I've seen many a lad jump at the chance, once he had the doubloons and the opportunity, buying and owning real gaming books with pride!  Methinks most gamers want the chance, if fortune and opportunities give it, to own real gamebooks, if but their interest be kept, just like many a fine young cabinboy dreams of the day when he might be Cap'n of his own ship, and have his own cabinboys to plough, Yo ho!

QuoteOh, brother. So, there are all these file downloaders...with no technology. Nevermind. Putting aside the hypocrisy, I agree that PNP games are suited to poor children. It is one of the things that attracted me. My brother and I played on our AD&D books for years. We added some dice but they were a small enough expense we could pay for it out of the money we earned at odd jobs. This I have no problems with. The idea that some kid in a hut is downloading RPGs at a cybercafe so he can take it home (to his hut) and stare at the shiny disk is rather silly.

Bill

It be not that way, matey.  They download ye books at the "ciber", and print them out on the cheap. Some nay have computers at home, and others have computers that ye or I would have called obsolete five years long gone, me bucko!

But really, here I were speakin not of downloading, but of the chance to buy cheaper gamebooks sold specifically to the latinamerican market; lads who perhaps do not even have a computer at home, but can spend $300 pieces of eight to buy a magazine-format RPG at a kiosk as they do in the fair port of Rio De Janeiro.

YARRRPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat are your opinions on it?

The core of the issue, to me, is compensating people for their labor.  You can play word games about the meaning of "theft" all you want, but if you take the product of someones labor and give it away for free so that they can't get compensated for their work, then you've robbed them of their compensation and you've benefitted from their work without paying them for it.  

Books, movies, and music all require an up-front investment of time and often other resources in order to produce a product that is essentially information.  Taking that information without payment is like hiring a research assistant, having them produce pages of notes for you, and then refusing to pay them because you are only taking a copy of their notes and letting them keep the originals.  The value lies in the information, not its physical form and taking that information without contributing to the cost of creating that information is theft of a service.

That said, I think information also needs to be allowed to enter the public domain to allow knowledge to be expanded and built upon, thus I would prefer that copyright protection be similar to patent protection and not essentially perpetual.

Now, back to file-sharing, in light of what I said above, is that I personally think it is acceptable for out-of-print games provided the person doesn't use their file-share copy as an excuse not to buy the out-of-print version if the game goes back into print.  Buying a used game does not compensate the author or publisher of that game.  It only enriches middlemen collectors.  But if those with file-share copies refuse to buy a reprint, if it becomes available, that does deny the author compensation for their work.

And, ultimately, if you like the work of an author or other creative artist, don't you want to compensate them for what they've created so they can afford to create more?

Quick clarification for Pundit and Bill: Magic isn't really the game of choice these days, as the price for booster packs and starter decks is ridiculous. Yugi-Oh, though, is extremely popular and affordable ($1-2 per booster, IIRC).

Quote from: JongWKQuick clarification for Pundit and Bill: Magic isn't really the game of choice these days, as the price for booster packs and starter decks is ridiculous. Yugi-Oh, though, is extremely popular and affordable ($1-2 per booster, IIRC).

nope Yugi-Oh is actually one of the spendy ones,. even @ whole sale (potomac) they are $2.70 a pack, retail ~3.50 a pack. Thats about the same as magic these days.

Quote from: RPGPunditI be understanding that if the 16 year old downloader be reading books he copied today, there be a CHANCE that tomorrow he may be buying RPGs and becoming an upright gamer.

If he is going to be at my game table he had better buy a legit copy of the game.  

If he were to come to my game table with a copy he downloaded from file sharing he would be turned away and told to come back when he has purchased a legal copy.

I dont let people with illegal copies of games play at my game table.

Quote from: John MorrowThe core of the issue, to me, is compensating people for their labor.  You can play word games about the meaning of "theft" all you want, but if you take the product of someones labor and give it away for free so that they can't get compensated for their work, then you've robbed them of their compensation and you've benefitted from their work without paying them for it.  

And, ultimately, if you like the work of an author or other creative artist, don't you want to compensate them for what they've created so they can afford to create more?

I totally agree on this point.  I have a few game designs that people I game with think are great.

I was planning on publishing the game but with all the piracy I decided to skip it.   I will finish the games but I they will only be played within my game group and with gamers I know.

It's sad but as you said I expect to be compensated for what I do.

Quote from: Geek MessiahI dont let people with illegal copies of games play at my game table.

Nor would I, but if it is PDF (not a scan) I doubt I would be able to tell it was not payed for by the player.

Quote from: McrowNor would I, but if it is PDF (not a scan) I doubt I would be able to tell it was not payed for by the player.

Well if its paid for I know drivethrurpg marks their games with watermarks.   As for other places I know they don't, so you would have to get into a casual conversation and if they admit it then you turn them away.

Is it 100%?  No.   You do the best you can.  If enough of the game pirates are turned away they will either have to game with eachother or they will be forced to buy legit copies.

Quote from: RPGPunditI be understanding that if the 16 year old downloader be reading books he copied today, there be a CHANCE that tomorrow he may be buying RPGs and becoming an upright gamer.

There is also a CHANCE that he'll laugh in the face of his friends who buy books and convince them that they are fools for paying for something they can get for free.  And, yes, I've seen that dynamic happen.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstThen what have I been playing? :confused:;)

Ah! You got your In Harm's Way game going? AWESOME! Let me know how it plays out! :D

BTW, I missed this when you posted it... :P

-clash

Quote from: hgjsI don't feel that it is inherently wrong, but it is wrong to break the law, and so it is wrong as long as the law forbids it.

So, during the 'good old days' when slavery was legal, you would have said it was wrong to help slaves escape to the morth because it was against the law? You've never seen a law that was so wrong you'd feel it was right to break it and wrong to obey it?

Quote from: RPGPunditYar, I consider civilization a need, not a want. And it be a need not only for ye poor deckhands, but it be OUR need that they receive it easily, if we are ta maintain our civilization and create a better world, yo-ho-ho!

Only two points in this post I really want to address. As I said, you have one view I have another. To me, civilization is not downloading illegal copies so the poor can print them out. A civilization has much more to do witht he peoples culture. To put it in these terms, such people would be much better served by a NFP book relief program that would catch more heat for giving books instead of food but I agree, free books would be a good thing. With illegal downloads followed by paying to print it out, the "cibers" take much more advantage of the poor than us evil coporate types.

BTW- one of the problems we seem to be facing is you keep moving the "poor" marker from subsitance to working poor. In a subsistance existance I would rather see books for education (whether that is entertainment or good old text books) get to children than RPGs. In a perfect world give them all kinds of books that they do not have to pay for that will help them. As for working poor, I would prefer to see a lending library system in place.

Quote from: RPGPunditYar. For ye, perhaps it be personal because you see what ye think may be lost plunder and profit from the copying of yer fine products, I wager. Though I wager that in fact the real cost to ye is little if any.
To me it also be personal, because I have met in my time here many a fine seamen and gamers, who, were the forces of the Crown to stop file sharing, would never be able to have access to games at all, and that makes this old sea dog's heart sad to think it, for the loss would be all of ours.
Let me say too, when I plied the rivers of the North Saskatchewan, I thought a mighty different opinion on this whole issue, but living here in what ye knaves up there call the "third world" has strongly changed my mind, and turned me right around on the whole issue, by thunder! Yar har!

First off, you have me entirely wrong. I will just assume you have not read my posts up until now. I will repeat:

I feel that illegal distribution of a person's creation is wrong and immoral. Not for the arguable loss of profit but from the purely philosophical point that a creator should control the method of distribution of their creation. If they wish to put it on a P2P netowrk for the world to download, then that is an entirely moral act (for all involved). However, if I create something and someone else makes the decision to distribute it to the world ( or their best friends, magnitude does not matter) then it is an immoral and wrong act.

Note: I did not say illegal. There is a difference to me.

Quote from: RPGPunditIt be not that way, matey.  They download ye books at the "ciber", and print them out on the cheap. Some nay have computers at home, and others have computers that ye or I would have called obsolete five years long gone, me bucko!

But really, here I were speakin not of downloading, but of the chance to buy cheaper gamebooks sold specifically to the latinamerican market; lads who perhaps do not even have a computer at home, but can spend $300 pieces of eight to buy a magazine-format RPG at a kiosk as they do in the fair port of Rio De Janeiro.

YARRRPGPundit

Again, the sliding mark of how poor are you talking. The $200 a month poor in Montevideo would probably be considered rich for the starving to death in Nigeria poor.

As for the cheap books, I say again, it is a strategy that HinterWelt is persuing. This market strategy also has appeal in the U.S. believe it or not. Resistance is mostly at the Distro and Retailer levels since they make much more on a $50 sale that a $12.99 sale.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltAs for the cheap books, I say again, it is a strategy that HinterWelt is persuing. This market strategy also has appeal in the U.S. believe it or not. Resistance is mostly at the Distro and Retailer levels since they make much more on a $50 sale that a $12.99 sale.

Bill

So to dovetail this thread with the other related thread, if I'm understanding this correctly, (and leaving out the moral/ethical questions) Pundit would like to see legal products available in South America, and Bill you see the roadblock to printing game products in country as a question of distribution once they are printed?

Quote from: JongWKYou've never been to South America, right? :rolleyes:

Actually, I have, but it was the early 1980s, before the internet.

Quote from: cnath.rmI'm also thinking that he is mixing South America with parts of Asia and Africa.

However, I was responding to RPGPundit, who was talking about would-be roleplayers in "the third world," not South America specifically. Maybe he meant South America, I don't know. I have this funny thing where I respond to what people actually wrote, and don't pretend to psychically know what they meant. "The Third World."

Which approach would be useful to you, since in my example I wrote of "Mtumbe." I'm fairly sure that's not a common South American name.

I stand by what I said: if you can afford internet access, then you can afford rpgs. Does free internet access exist? Yes, even sometimes in the Third World. So do free rpgs. here's a list of 500 free rpgs (http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/).

If, among all those, you can't find at least five you think are worth playing, then you a miserable bastard who will never be happy anyway, so there's no sense trying to produce rpgs for you in any language at any price, whether legitimately bought, or scored off p2p. Over 500 free rpgs. Now stop whinging.

Quote from: Dominus NoxSo, during the 'good old days' when slavery was legal, you would have said it was wrong to help slaves escape to the morth because it was against the law? You've never seen a law that was so wrong you'd feel it was right to break it and wrong to obey it?

Copyright is equivalent to slavery?

Let me guess you're a pipe-smoker, too? "Currently smoking: crack"?

Some laws are harmful; some are helpful; some are neither, and some have mixed effects. I think it can be fairly said that a law allowing or enfocing slavery is entirely harmful. A law allowing or enforcing copyright is somewhat harmful, but mostly helpful. A copyright law encourages people to produce new quality stuff; without copyright, less qaulity stuff would be created. Certainly there are many examples of more-or-less copyright-free quality things being produced (like the OpenOffice software I use). But there are many, many more examples of copyrighted qaulity stuff being produced.

Whatever the laws, people will always produce stuff, and other people will always copy and distribute it, with or without their permission. But knowing that once published, you will have proper control of the thing's distribution, and if any money is made from it, it'll go to you - so that we can have professional producers of stuff - that increases the chances of quality stuff coming about.

As always in society, you have to strike a balance in this thing. If between the producer's copyright and the user's distribution rights you focus too much on the producer, then the stuff gets priced out of the market, or made too inconvenient to use, and no-one buys it. If you focus too much on the user's distribution rights, then the producer feels that their product will be out of their control if released, and they can't possibly make money off it - so they don't produce it.

A balance is needed, so that we can have quality products. Arguments about the poor struggling masses of the Third World are simply bullshit; likewise, arguments about some middle-classed kid's "right" to be entertained for free.

If you're truly worried about the poor struggling masses of the Third World having no rpgs, then get off your lazy arse and write and publish one - for free. If you've time to argue about rpgs on the internet, then you've time to write an rpg. Go on, the lot of you. Go write an rpg. At least 500 other people did it, why can't you?

Quote from: JimBobOzI stand by what I said: if you can afford internet access, then you can afford rpgs. Does free internet access exist? Yes, even sometimes in the Third World. So do free rpgs. here's a list of 500 free rpgs (http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/).

Very cool!! Going to need to bookmark that link. :bow: I thank you sir.

Yar, in essence what ye be arguing is that the rich should get to play chess, but the poor only checkers, matey. To say that they can choose from any of 500 free RPGs made mostly by amateurs, that nary a salty seaman has ever heard of, but that they be vexed by neptune's fortune if they be wanting to actually play a game like D&D; nay, say ye, that be only for those who can PAY.

It leaves a worse taste in me mouth than wormy biscuits, me swab.

YARRRPGPundit

Quote from: cnath.rmSo to dovetail this thread with the other related thread, if I'm understanding this correctly, (and leaving out the moral/ethical questions) Pundit would like to see legal products available in South America, and Bill you see the roadblock to printing game products in country as a question of distribution once they are printed?

Yes, definitely. I am not familiar with the printers in South America but others have said that POD style digital printers exist. Printing is usually the easy part. It mostly takes a level of capital and a little leg work.

The major roadblocks, to break them down, would be marketing and distribution. First, marketing. What are similar products that sell in this market? Are there game stores or are they something else? From what Pundit has said, it sure sounds like a kiosk is a popular method for delivery. How can we garner a market share? If Yugioh sells then can we capitalize on that market? What is the price point that would work per unit? $5 - $10 is awfully tight but if there is more tolerence for lower production values then we can work towards a viable ROI. What sells well currently? Sci-Fi? Traditional Euro-Fantasy? D20? Non-d20? In Europe we have been seeing some success because d20 is softer and people are open to other systems.

Second part is distribution. Are there book distributors we could use in South America? I assume so but will it be dozens or one monolithic distributor. I have mixed feeling about this. I operated my stores in a time when there were may 4-5 distributors in the entire U.S. for RPG products. It made some things easier and others much worse. Who do current book stores use for their distributors? For that matter, how do the kiosks get their products? Will there be tarrifs and fees for moving stock? For instance, if I find a POD printer in Uruguay that is easy to work with and has good pricing will it cost me money to shift stock to Brazil? For that matter, is there a market in all of South America in the first place or is it localized to a few places?

There are many questions and some can be answered definitivly while others are only going to be guesses but we would want educated guesses, not just "All my friends game" type answers.

I would also add that if the pirate market is that brazen, questions of the capability to compete in such an environment would be...an issue.

Is that what you are looking for?

Bill

Yarrr, ye best bet would likely be ye companies (there be one or two) that translate and bring over from across the great Pacific ye books of Manga. Ye japanese comics be heartily popular in these here ports, me bucko!  And ye market would be similar.

Yar Harr.

YARRRPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYarrr, ye best bet would likely be ye companies (there be one or two) that translate and bring over from across the great Pacific ye books of Manga. Ye japanese comics be heartily popular in these here ports, me bucko!  And ye market would be similar.

Yar Harr.

YARRRPGPundit

I do not know about your neck of the woods but this does not always translate in the US or Europe. You would think it would but anime and manga along with comics are something of a dicey comparison. There are times when the two will sell side by side but it often takes different models. For instance, anime runs on a movie or comic model of a long series of releases or a monthly subscription. It can be tricky sometimes rolling those buying habits over into a purchase every few months. Now, if you are WOTC and releasing several books a month it can get easier.

What I would prefer to here about is how fantasy/sci-fi novels sell. Don't get me wrong, anime/manga is a good start but we would need to spread out our sampling.

Of course, all this is just me. My experiences are limited to about sixty retailers from across the US and Europe. It may not apply to South America.

Bill

Quote from: Geek MessiahWell if its paid for I know drivethrurpg marks their games with watermarks.   As for other places I know they don't, so you would have to get into a casual conversation and if they admit it then you turn them away.

Is it 100%?  No.   You do the best you can.  If enough of the game pirates are turned away they will either have to game with eachother or they will be forced to buy legit copies.

Well, I have to say that if you basically tried to get me to talk with you just to find out if I had a pirated copy then 'turned me away', I'd never game with you under any circumstances even if I had a legal copy.

You're not the copyright police.

Quote from: RPGPunditYar, in essence what ye be arguing is that the rich should get to play chess, but the poor only checkers, matey. To say that they can choose from any of 500 free RPGs made mostly by amateurs, that nary a salty seaman has ever heard of, but that they be vexed by neptune's fortune if they be wanting to actually play a game like D&D; nay, say ye, that be only for those who can PAY.

Then hurry the fuck up and publish your game, and give it away for free. Quit blathering here about it all, and get on with it.

Enough bullshit, time for action. You're talking like a typical middle-classed kid, chock-a-block with a big ole sense of entitlement.

:enw:

Quote from: HinterWeltI do not know about your neck of the woods but this does not always translate in the US or Europe. You would think it would but anime and manga along with comics are something of a dicey comparison. There are times when the two will sell side by side but it often takes different models. For instance, anime runs on a movie or comic model of a long series of releases or a monthly subscription. It can be tricky sometimes rolling those buying habits over into a purchase every few months. Now, if you are WOTC and releasing several books a month it can get easier.

What I would prefer to here about is how fantasy/sci-fi novels sell. Don't get me wrong, anime/manga is a good start but we would need to spread out our sampling.

Of course, all this is just me. My experiences are limited to about sixty retailers from across the US and Europe. It may not apply to South America.

Bill

Consider that an inevitable part of this business model would be to release a relatively slim main book (since it'd have to be a 100-page or smaller book in softcover or even magazine format), and then regular modules/adventures/sourcematerial/expansions on a monthly or bi-monthly basis.

Essentially, it'd be the "RPG as magazine" format, something that has worked very very well for Tormenta and 3D&T over in Brazil.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JimBobOzThen hurry the fuck up and publish your game, and give it away for free. Quit blathering here about it all, and get on with it.

Enough bullshit, time for action. You're talking like a typical middle-classed kid, chock-a-block with a big ole sense of entitlement.

:enw:

If I gave it away for free, it'd be on that list of "500 free games no one fucking wants".

No, I'm going to release the english version as a PDF, charge for it, and god willing there'll be sufficient public interest that it'll end up being put up in P2P networks and everything!

I have faith that those who can, and wish to honour the work that Forward...To Adventure! represents, will buy a legitimate copy of the PDF or do Print on Demand or whatever. But I certainly won't blame anyone who cannot afford to, and won't resent them getting the PDF by other means; nor will I give a shit about those who choose to get it that way even if they could pay for it, because I know that in all likelihood they would never have paid for it anyways.

As for the Spanish edition, that's still being translated, and the plan is to eventually work out how to release it in exactly the sort of format we're talking about here.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Mcrownope Yugi-Oh is actually one of the spendy ones,. even @ whole sale (potomac) they are $2.70 a pack, retail ~3.50 a pack. Thats about the same as magic these days.

Er, MtG boosters go for like $10 here (haven't checked in a while, it could be more). IIRC, the idiots print them in Europe and bring them here. Yugi-Oh is printed somewhere in Latin America, and thus has a lower price tag.

Quote from: RPGPunditConsider that an inevitable part of this business model would be to release a relatively slim main book (since it'd have to be a 100-page or smaller book in softcover or even magazine format), and then regular modules/adventures/sourcematerial/expansions on a monthly or bi-monthly basis.

Essentially, it'd be the "RPG as magazine" format, something that has worked very very well for Tormenta and 3D&T over in Brazil.

RPGPundit

Hmm, just to share my experience. Obviously you are closer to the actual situation than I am.

Squirrel Attack! is 60 pages in a statement size saddlestitch and retails for 12.99 USD. Color interior but noting extravagent, mostly maps.We are pushing 900 copies now, after gencon. The Pie Incident is the first adventure and it is statement size, color interior (again,mostly for the maps), and retails for 7.99 USD. It released in August and we are already past 200 which is pretty good for small press.

Hmm, I guess my biggest concern would be the release schedule of more than one supplement per month. I think you would need to look at hiring some freelance help. Maybe you have more time than me though and it would all work out in the end. I am just saying that work load has to be part of the consideration.

Good luck,
Bill

Quote from: JongWKEr, MtG boosters go for like $10 here (haven't checked in a while, it could be more). IIRC, the idiots print them in Europe and bring them here. Yugi-Oh is printed somewhere in Latin America, and thus has a lower price tag.

they used to be printed in Belgium, flown to the states and then shipped to the UK!

Quote from: JongWKEr, MtG boosters go for like $10 here (haven't checked in a while, it could be more). IIRC, the idiots print them in Europe and bring them here. Yugi-Oh is printed somewhere in Latin America, and thus has a lower price tag.

I think it may have changed by now, but a part of the problem getting ccg's out to the public when they first hit, was that all of the companies had them printed at Carta Mundi in Belgium. (something about nobody else having the right machines or them having the lowest costs I can't remember.) There were several good games that more or less died on the vine because they couldn't get starters out to the game stores. (Jihad/Vampire: The Etarnal Struggle is supposed to be a great card game, but my local shop only had boosters after the first week, and couldn't get anymore starters.  Had the same problem with M:TG as well.)

Quote from: Dominus NoxWell, I have to say that if you basically tried to get me to talk with you just to find out if I had a pirated copy then 'turned me away', I'd never game with you under any circumstances even if I had a legal copy.

You're not the copyright police.

At my game table I am.  

People who have pirated copies of games are not welcome at my table.  Have a legit copy or you don't play with my group.   Shun the pirates enough they will be forced to buy legit copies and wont have anywhere to play.

Getting the pirates to buy legit copies is better for the industry.

Quote from: Geek MessiahPeople who have pirated copies of games are not welcome at my table.  Have a legit copy or you don't play with my group.   Shun the pirates enough they will be forced to buy legit copies and wont have anywhere to play.

What about people that don't have a copy at all?

That's another thing that gets me about people who claim the pirates are destroying the industry and stealing money from games companies.

In the old days before piracy became an issue, at our games (for anything other than D&D) you'ld be lucky if anyone owned a rulebook other than the GM. I've yet to see anyone run a game from a pirated rulebook, so I'm not seeing where the loss in sales is. I've not seen any player bring a pirated rulebook to the table either.

What I have seen is people using a PDF of the rules to design there character for a game the GM is going to run, so all it seems to have done to change our gaming habits is the GM doesn't need to lend his rulebook out as often.

Quote from: BagpussWhat about people that don't have a copy at all?

That's another thing that gets me about people who claim the pirates are destroying the industry and stealing money from games companies.

In the old days before piracy became an issue, at our games (for anything other than D&D) you'ld be lucky if anyone owned a rulebook other than the GM. I've yet to see anyone run a game from a pirated rulebook, so I'm not seeing where the loss in sales is. I've not seen any player bring a pirated rulebook to the table either.

What I have seen is people using a PDF of the rules to design there character for a game the GM is going to run, so all it seems to have done to change our gaming habits is the GM doesn't need to lend his rulebook out as often.

I am used to there only being one copy (I prefer when a few people have the rule book that way there is more then one person with the rules who can help everyone out and make characters, making getting to play faster.

I encourage people in my group to have a copy.   That way things go easier and its better for the industry (as more books sold means more money for the game companies I like).  They can take that money to stay in business and keep putting out great games.

Quote from: Geek MessiahAt my game table I am.  

People who have pirated copies of games are not welcome at my table.  Have a legit copy or you don't play with my group.  

No big loss then...

Quote from: Dominus NoxNo big loss then...

You are right.   People who have pirated games not being allowed at my game table is no real loss.

However let me make it clear the situation has never come up yet.   I would only have worry about it if it was someone I didn't know.   None of the gamers I know have pirated copies.

So the chances of me ever having to have that conversations is less the 1%