Quote from: RPGPunditWhat are your opinions on it?

The core of the issue, to me, is compensating people for their labor.  You can play word games about the meaning of "theft" all you want, but if you take the product of someones labor and give it away for free so that they can't get compensated for their work, then you've robbed them of their compensation and you've benefitted from their work without paying them for it.  

Books, movies, and music all require an up-front investment of time and often other resources in order to produce a product that is essentially information.  Taking that information without payment is like hiring a research assistant, having them produce pages of notes for you, and then refusing to pay them because you are only taking a copy of their notes and letting them keep the originals.  The value lies in the information, not its physical form and taking that information without contributing to the cost of creating that information is theft of a service.

That said, I think information also needs to be allowed to enter the public domain to allow knowledge to be expanded and built upon, thus I would prefer that copyright protection be similar to patent protection and not essentially perpetual.

Now, back to file-sharing, in light of what I said above, is that I personally think it is acceptable for out-of-print games provided the person doesn't use their file-share copy as an excuse not to buy the out-of-print version if the game goes back into print.  Buying a used game does not compensate the author or publisher of that game.  It only enriches middlemen collectors.  But if those with file-share copies refuse to buy a reprint, if it becomes available, that does deny the author compensation for their work.

And, ultimately, if you like the work of an author or other creative artist, don't you want to compensate them for what they've created so they can afford to create more?

Quick clarification for Pundit and Bill: Magic isn't really the game of choice these days, as the price for booster packs and starter decks is ridiculous. Yugi-Oh, though, is extremely popular and affordable ($1-2 per booster, IIRC).

Quote from: JongWKQuick clarification for Pundit and Bill: Magic isn't really the game of choice these days, as the price for booster packs and starter decks is ridiculous. Yugi-Oh, though, is extremely popular and affordable ($1-2 per booster, IIRC).

nope Yugi-Oh is actually one of the spendy ones,. even @ whole sale (potomac) they are $2.70 a pack, retail ~3.50 a pack. Thats about the same as magic these days.

Quote from: RPGPunditI be understanding that if the 16 year old downloader be reading books he copied today, there be a CHANCE that tomorrow he may be buying RPGs and becoming an upright gamer.

If he is going to be at my game table he had better buy a legit copy of the game.  

If he were to come to my game table with a copy he downloaded from file sharing he would be turned away and told to come back when he has purchased a legal copy.

I dont let people with illegal copies of games play at my game table.

Quote from: John MorrowThe core of the issue, to me, is compensating people for their labor.  You can play word games about the meaning of "theft" all you want, but if you take the product of someones labor and give it away for free so that they can't get compensated for their work, then you've robbed them of their compensation and you've benefitted from their work without paying them for it.  

And, ultimately, if you like the work of an author or other creative artist, don't you want to compensate them for what they've created so they can afford to create more?

I totally agree on this point.  I have a few game designs that people I game with think are great.

I was planning on publishing the game but with all the piracy I decided to skip it.   I will finish the games but I they will only be played within my game group and with gamers I know.

It's sad but as you said I expect to be compensated for what I do.

Quote from: Geek MessiahI dont let people with illegal copies of games play at my game table.

Nor would I, but if it is PDF (not a scan) I doubt I would be able to tell it was not payed for by the player.

Quote from: McrowNor would I, but if it is PDF (not a scan) I doubt I would be able to tell it was not payed for by the player.

Well if its paid for I know drivethrurpg marks their games with watermarks.   As for other places I know they don't, so you would have to get into a casual conversation and if they admit it then you turn them away.

Is it 100%?  No.   You do the best you can.  If enough of the game pirates are turned away they will either have to game with eachother or they will be forced to buy legit copies.

Quote from: RPGPunditI be understanding that if the 16 year old downloader be reading books he copied today, there be a CHANCE that tomorrow he may be buying RPGs and becoming an upright gamer.

There is also a CHANCE that he'll laugh in the face of his friends who buy books and convince them that they are fools for paying for something they can get for free.  And, yes, I've seen that dynamic happen.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstThen what have I been playing? :confused:

Ah! You got your In Harm's Way game going? AWESOME! Let me know how it plays out!

BTW, I missed this when you posted it...

-clash

Quote from: hgjsI don't feel that it is inherently wrong, but it is wrong to break the law, and so it is wrong as long as the law forbids it.

So, during the 'good old days' when slavery was legal, you would have said it was wrong to help slaves escape to the morth because it was against the law? You've never seen a law that was so wrong you'd feel it was right to break it and wrong to obey it?

Quote from: RPGPunditYar, I consider civilization a need, not a want. And it be a need not only for ye poor deckhands, but it be OUR need that they receive it easily, if we are ta maintain our civilization and create a better world, yo-ho-ho!

Only two points in this post I really want to address. As I said, you have one view I have another. To me, civilization is not downloading illegal copies so the poor can print them out. A civilization has much more to do witht he peoples culture. To put it in these terms, such people would be much better served by a NFP book relief program that would catch more heat for giving books instead of food but I agree, free books would be a good thing. With illegal downloads followed by paying to print it out, the "cibers" take much more advantage of the poor than us evil coporate types.

BTW- one of the problems we seem to be facing is you keep moving the "poor" marker from subsitance to working poor. In a subsistance existance I would rather see books for education (whether that is entertainment or good old text books) get to children than RPGs. In a perfect world give them all kinds of books that they do not have to pay for that will help them. As for working poor, I would prefer to see a lending library system in place.

Quote from: RPGPunditYar. For ye, perhaps it be personal because you see what ye think may be lost plunder and profit from the copying of yer fine products, I wager. Though I wager that in fact the real cost to ye is little if any.
To me it also be personal, because I have met in my time here many a fine seamen and gamers, who, were the forces of the Crown to stop file sharing, would never be able to have access to games at all, and that makes this old sea dog's heart sad to think it, for the loss would be all of ours.
Let me say too, when I plied the rivers of the North Saskatchewan, I thought a mighty different opinion on this whole issue, but living here in what ye knaves up there call the "third world" has strongly changed my mind, and turned me right around on the whole issue, by thunder! Yar har!

First off, you have me entirely wrong. I will just assume you have not read my posts up until now. I will repeat:

I feel that illegal distribution of a person's creation is wrong and immoral. Not for the arguable loss of profit but from the purely philosophical point that a creator should control the method of distribution of their creation. If they wish to put it on a P2P netowrk for the world to download, then that is an entirely moral act (for all involved). However, if I create something and someone else makes the decision to distribute it to the world ( or their best friends, magnitude does not matter) then it is an immoral and wrong act.

Note: I did not say illegal. There is a difference to me.

Quote from: RPGPunditIt be not that way, matey.  They download ye books at the "ciber", and print them out on the cheap. Some nay have computers at home, and others have computers that ye or I would have called obsolete five years long gone, me bucko!

But really, here I were speakin not of downloading, but of the chance to buy cheaper gamebooks sold specifically to the latinamerican market; lads who perhaps do not even have a computer at home, but can spend $300 pieces of eight to buy a magazine-format RPG at a kiosk as they do in the fair port of Rio De Janeiro.

YARRRPGPundit

Again, the sliding mark of how poor are you talking. The $200 a month poor in Montevideo would probably be considered rich for the starving to death in Nigeria poor.

As for the cheap books, I say again, it is a strategy that HinterWelt is persuing. This market strategy also has appeal in the U.S. believe it or not. Resistance is mostly at the Distro and Retailer levels since they make much more on a $50 sale that a $12.99 sale.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltAs for the cheap books, I say again, it is a strategy that HinterWelt is persuing. This market strategy also has appeal in the U.S. believe it or not. Resistance is mostly at the Distro and Retailer levels since they make much more on a $50 sale that a $12.99 sale.

Bill

So to dovetail this thread with the other related thread, if I'm understanding this correctly, (and leaving out the moral/ethical questions) Pundit would like to see legal products available in South America, and Bill you see the roadblock to printing game products in country as a question of distribution once they are printed?

Quote from: JongWKYou've never been to South America, right? :rolleyes:

Actually, I have, but it was the early 1980s, before the internet.

Quote from: cnath.rmI'm also thinking that he is mixing South America with parts of Asia and Africa.

However, I was responding to RPGPundit, who was talking about would-be roleplayers in "the third world," not South America specifically. Maybe he meant South America, I don't know. I have this funny thing where I respond to what people actually wrote, and don't pretend to psychically know what they meant. "The Third World."

Which approach would be useful to you, since in my example I wrote of "Mtumbe." I'm fairly sure that's not a common South American name.

I stand by what I said: if you can afford internet access, then you can afford rpgs. Does free internet access exist? Yes, even sometimes in the Third World. So do free rpgs. here's a list of 500 free rpgs.

If, among all those, you can't find at least five you think are worth playing, then you a miserable bastard who will never be happy anyway, so there's no sense trying to produce rpgs for you in any language at any price, whether legitimately bought, or scored off p2p. Over 500 free rpgs. Now stop whinging.

Quote from: Dominus NoxSo, during the 'good old days' when slavery was legal, you would have said it was wrong to help slaves escape to the morth because it was against the law? You've never seen a law that was so wrong you'd feel it was right to break it and wrong to obey it?

Copyright is equivalent to slavery?

Let me guess you're a pipe-smoker, too? "Currently smoking: crack"?

Some laws are harmful; some are helpful; some are neither, and some have mixed effects. I think it can be fairly said that a law allowing or enfocing slavery is entirely harmful. A law allowing or enforcing copyright is somewhat harmful, but mostly helpful. A copyright law encourages people to produce new quality stuff; without copyright, less qaulity stuff would be created. Certainly there are many examples of more-or-less copyright-free quality things being produced (like the OpenOffice software I use). But there are many, many more examples of copyrighted qaulity stuff being produced.

Whatever the laws, people will always produce stuff, and other people will always copy and distribute it, with or without their permission. But knowing that once published, you will have proper control of the thing's distribution, and if any money is made from it, it'll go to you - so that we can have professional producers of stuff - that increases the chances of quality stuff coming about.

As always in society, you have to strike a balance in this thing. If between the producer's copyright and the user's distribution rights you focus too much on the producer, then the stuff gets priced out of the market, or made too inconvenient to use, and no-one buys it. If you focus too much on the user's distribution rights, then the producer feels that their product will be out of their control if released, and they can't possibly make money off it - so they don't produce it.

A balance is needed, so that we can have quality products. Arguments about the poor struggling masses of the Third World are simply bullshit; likewise, arguments about some middle-classed kid's "right" to be entertained for free.

If you're truly worried about the poor struggling masses of the Third World having no rpgs, then get off your lazy arse and write and publish one - for free. If you've time to argue about rpgs on the internet, then you've time to write an rpg. Go on, the lot of you. Go write an rpg. At least 500 other people did it, why can't you?

Quote from: JimBobOzI stand by what I said: if you can afford internet access, then you can afford rpgs. Does free internet access exist? Yes, even sometimes in the Third World. So do free rpgs. here's a list of 500 free rpgs.

Very cool!! Going to need to bookmark that link. :bow: I thank you sir.

Yar, in essence what ye be arguing is that the rich should get to play chess, but the poor only checkers, matey. To say that they can choose from any of 500 free RPGs made mostly by amateurs, that nary a salty seaman has ever heard of, but that they be vexed by neptune's fortune if they be wanting to actually play a game like D&D; nay, say ye, that be only for those who can PAY.

It leaves a worse taste in me mouth than wormy biscuits, me swab.

YARRRPGPundit