Not to mention that somewhere, someone down the line PAID for that original copy that ends up on the P2P; unless you're assuming that the dude shoplifted the CD or book.

You don't "rent" a song, or a gamebook. You BUY it. After that you have the right to make as many copies as you want. Millions, if you want. As long as you don't actually SELL any of those copies. Its not piracy.

Those of you who say its about the creator's right to distribute his work as he sees fit: he IS. He chose to sell a copy of his book. After that, the person he SOLD that book to can do whatever he wants with it, except fraudulently claim it as his own work or sell copies.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYou don't "rent" a song, or a gamebook. You BUY it. After that you have the right to make as many copies as you want. Millions, if you want. As long as you don't actually SELL any of those copies. Its not piracy.

Those of you who say its about the creator's right to distribute his work as he sees fit: he IS. He chose to sell a copy of his book. After that, the person he SOLD that book to can do whatever he wants with it, except fraudulently claim it as his own work or sell copies.

It appears you're trying to talk law. You're wrong.

Read what I wrote: "copyright" is quite literally the right to make copies. Whether you sell the copy for $10, pass it over for free, or even whether you pay someone $50 to read it is irrelevant under the law of copyright; though it'd be relevant in a civil case's settlement (you can't give a share/all of the profits if you didn't make any.. there'd just be plain old punitive damages). If you distribute the copies, you have violated the person's copyright.

That's the law.

What the morality is, that's another matter. But since you made such a big deal of following the law in your first post, I thought you might be interested in it.

COPYRIGHT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COPYRIGHT OWNER'S RIGHT TO MAKE MONEY.

I know it's easy to be confused about this, since so many copyright owners argue that as the issue, offering parallels with outright burglary and so on. But that's not the law about copyright as such.

As always, RPGPundit, you need to read more, and type less: copyright is the right to make copies. If it's your creation, you get to decide how it'll be presented and distributed. The law is indeed that you can make copies of stuff you've bought; you just can't pass them on to anyone else. For the purposes of copyright law, it is not actually a "copy" unless it's distributed.

Profit ain't got nothin' to do with it. I can stop you reproducing and selling my stuff, even if you're going to give every penny to me, and I'm dead broke. It's mine to do with as I see fit.

That's the law. Don't like it? Write your MP.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo's Walt Disney, and yet it seems that thanks to him, a massive corporation is making sure that absolutely nothing will ever enter into the public domain again, ever.
So we'll all be expected to keep paying massive corporations billions of dollars so their CEOs can get rich off of the creative genius of people who died decades (and eventually, centuries) ago.
These shitheads shouldn't be complaining, they should be amazed that no one has strung them up by their own intestines yet.

This really is not what I am talking about. I appreciate it is what you are talking about but I have no response since this is about the laws. On purely a moral ground, I think that a copyright should expire with the author. I do not know enough about copyright law to have an informed opinon on the legal aspect. I doubt many on this board do.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat about individuals who couldn't possibly buy your books otherwise?

RPGPundit

Then too bad? There are many things in this life a person may not be able to afford. Food, housing and medical care come to mind as ranking far higher than a game. If I was selling insulin and I asked people to pay more than they could for my product...yeah, I am a despicable. If I am a writer and I ask that the public pay a far price for my hard work...how am I a bad guy again?

Bill

Quote from: JimBobOzSnip of good points...
Profit ain't got nothin' to do with it. I can stop you reproducing and selling my stuff, even if you're going to give every penny to me, and I'm dead broke. It's mine to do with as I see fit.

This is my understanding of US copyright law as well.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltThis really is not what I am talking about. I appreciate it is what you are talking about but I have no response since this is about the laws. On purely a moral ground, I think that a copyright should expire with the author. I do not know enough about copyright law to have an informed opinon on the legal aspect. I doubt many on this board do.

Then too bad?

Bill

"Too bad" just doesn't cut it sometimes.....

Also, the only possible way to stop file sharing would be to regulate the ninternet to the point no transaction could occur on it without big biz and it's pet government knowing about it, turning the internet into a giant grey concrete mall with constant surveillance. Fuck that, it's a cure worse than the disease.

I'd rather live in a worlds where big biz loses a few cents to file sharing (Boo hoo. How much do they care when they're overcharging for medicine or sending jobs overseas and putting american workers into poverty?) than live in a world where filke sharing was made impossible by total control of the internet.

Quote from: RPGPunditNot to mention that somewhere, someone down the line PAID for that original copy that ends up on the P2P; unless you're assuming that the dude shoplifted the CD or book.

You don't "rent" a song, or a gamebook. You BUY it. After that you have the right to make as many copies as you want. Millions, if you want. As long as you don't actually SELL any of those copies. Its not piracy.

Those of you who say its about the creator's right to distribute his work as he sees fit: he IS. He chose to sell a copy of his book. After that, the person he SOLD that book to can do whatever he wants with it, except fraudulently claim it as his own work or sell copies.

RPGPundit

Pundy's right on this. When I buy a CD or a book, I pay a SALES tax, not a 'lease' tax, so I have BOUGHT the item, not leased it.

As to the "agreements" that we must click on to get some things, like software, to work, those are invalid AFAIC as we really have no valid choice but to click on them or just be out the money we spent on buying the software since most places don;t take software back.

One other note about filesharing: it's a way for people to fuck big biz and the system for a change, and damn, it feels good to dish it out for a change.

Quote from: Dominus Nox"Too bad" just doesn't cut it sometimes.....

Also, the only possible way to stop file sharing would be to regulate the ninternet to the point no transaction could occur on it without big biz and it's pet government knowing about it, turning the internet into a giant grey concrete mall with constant surveillance. Fuck that, it's a cure worse than the disease.

I'd rather live in a worlds where big biz loses a few cents to file sharing (Boo hoo. How much do they care when they're overcharging for medicine or sending jobs overseas and putting american workers into poverty?) than live in a world where filke sharing was made impossible by total control of the internet.

You know, I sometimes feel like I am not part of the conversation and people have an auto-response system. "Can I get a list of the words that set you off Brother?"  

I am not saying file sharing will ever stop. As a business man, I am very pragmatic about it. It will continue despite any efforts on the part of any organization.

As for my "Too Bad" statement...well, yes, it is too bad. If you are so poor you cannot afford a $20-40 purchase once a month FOR A LEISURE ITEM then you have big problems and should be looking at how you will feed yourself. In the end, I do not condone rationalizing immoral acts with poverty. I came from a dirt poor family. My parents could not pay one cent for college. They fell below the poverty line for a family of 3 and we had five people in our family. I know poor. At no point did my father or mother say, "It's o.k to steal because we are poor". I use stealing here as an example of commiting an immoral act not as a comparison. That seems to be what you are saying. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Bill

Quote from: JimBobOzIt appears you're trying to talk law. You're wrong.

Read what I wrote: "copyright" is quite literally the right to make copies. Whether you sell the copy for $10, pass it over for free, or even whether you pay someone $50 to read it is irrelevant under the law of copyright; though it'd be relevant in a civil case's settlement (you can't give a share/all of the profits if you didn't make any.. there'd just be plain old punitive damages). If you distribute the copies, you have violated the person's copyright.

That's the law.

What the morality is, that's another matter. But since you made such a big deal of following the law in your first post, I thought you might be interested in it.

COPYRIGHT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COPYRIGHT OWNER'S RIGHT TO MAKE MONEY.

I know it's easy to be confused about this, since so many copyright owners argue that as the issue, offering parallels with outright burglary and so on. But that's not the law about copyright as such.

As always, RPGPundit, you need to read more, and type less: copyright is the right to make copies. If it's your creation, you get to decide how it'll be presented and distributed. The law is indeed that you can make copies of stuff you've bought; you just can't pass them on to anyone else. For the purposes of copyright law, it is not actually a "copy" unless it's distributed.

Profit ain't got nothin' to do with it. I can stop you reproducing and selling my stuff, even if you're going to give every penny to me, and I'm dead broke. It's mine to do with as I see fit.

That's the law. Don't like it? Write your MP.

The law is pretty irrelevant in this case, given that it hasn't worked that way in reality for decades. It didn't work that way with the audio tape recorder, with the VCR, and it isn't working that way with the internet.

And lets face it, its like you said; no one on the corporate side is talking about principles here, they're all talking about profits.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWeltThen too bad? There are many things in this life a person may not be able to afford. Food, housing and medical care come to mind as ranking far higher than a game. If I was selling insulin and I asked people to pay more than they could for my product...yeah, I am a despicable. If I am a writer and I ask that the public pay a far price for my hard work...how am I a bad guy again?

Bill

Oh, I'd say you're not a bad guy.
But I'd also say that someone from a third-world country who could never be your customer anyways, wouldn't be a "bad guy" for choosing to download your book rather than never getting to read it otherwise by mere virtue of where he was born (and how poor he is, though often the first is as much a factor; there's tons of people here who could afford and would love to buy the more affordable RPG products, if only the RPG companies would deign to sell it to them).
And if you got all offended at said person for choosing to read your book rather than never get to read your book ever through no fault of their own, I'd say you're kind of a dick.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWeltAs for my "Too Bad" statement...well, yes, it is too bad. If you are so poor you cannot afford a $20-40 purchase once a month FOR A LEISURE ITEM then you have big problems and should be looking at how you will feed yourself. In the end, I do not condone rationalizing immoral acts with poverty. I came from a dirt poor family. My parents could not pay one cent for college. They fell below the poverty line for a family of 3 and we had five people in our family. I know poor. At no point did my father or mother say, "It's o.k to steal because we are poor". I use stealing here as an example of commiting an immoral act not as a comparison. That seems to be what you are saying. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Bill

Except, again, its not stealing, its copying. If they were never going to buy the product from you in the first place, and their copy doesn't magically remove a copy of your product from the shelf, then they aren't actually stealing.

Again, in the third world, "poverty" is only half the problem. I know plenty of folks here who earn a middle-class lifestyle here (which would be about $800US a month), something that would technically allow them to buy one or two gaming books a month.  But not if that included the exhorbitant shipping and tariff fees for importing the product from the US, because NO ONE (not even Wizards) actually sells game books in Uruguay.
And though many of them have computers, buying PDFs online is practically impossible as well, because the online payment sites refuse to accept latinamerican-issued Visas or Mastercards (I bet you didn't know that those credit card companies issue "special" versions of their cards in third world countries, versions that do not have most of the privileges of normal cards).

So even people who could in theory buy game books are left with NO option but to either a) buy from pirates, or b) download the pdf themselves through File Sharing.

Never mind that after that you have the folks that really literally can't afford to buy a game book. We're talking about people here in the third world who earn maybe $200US a month, or less. Should their poverty mean they can't play RPGs, or do you just think that they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the same RPGs that those of us "monied" people enjoy?

Meanwhile, there's also the kids in both the 3rd and 1st world, kids we DESPERATELY need in the RPG hobby, who are unable or unwilling to spend over $100 to get into gaming, but might easily become valuable additions to gaming many years down the road.

Again, just like with the recording industry, the gaming industry has themselves at least in part to blame for the filesharing phenomenon. They don't market to third world countries; and they choose to make Ultra-expensive products for nerd Collectors, instead of affordable gaming products for people who can't go around spending $50-100 per book no matter how glossy or full-colour it is, and just want to be able to have rules to Roleplay with.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditExcept, again, its not stealing, its copying. If they were never going to buy the product from you in the first place, and their copy doesn't magically remove a copy of your product from the shelf, then they aren't actually stealing.

Again, in the third world, "poverty" is only half the problem. I know plenty of folks here who earn a middle-class lifestyle here (which would be about $800US a month), something that would technically allow them to buy one or two gaming books a month.  But not if that included the exhorbitant shipping and tariff fees for importing the product from the US, because NO ONE (not even Wizards) actually sells game books in Uruguay.
And though many of them have computers, buying PDFs online is practically impossible as well, because the online payment sites refuse to accept latinamerican-issued Visas or Mastercards (I bet you didn't know that those credit card companies issue "special" versions of their cards in third world countries, versions that do not have most of the privileges of normal cards).

So even people who could in theory buy game books are left with NO option but to either a) buy from pirates, or b) download the pdf themselves through File Sharing.

Never mind that after that you have the folks that really literally can't afford to buy a game book. We're talking about people here in the third world who earn maybe $200US a month, or less. Should their poverty mean they can't play RPGs, or do you just think that they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the same RPGs that those of us "monied" people enjoy?

Meanwhile, there's also the kids in both the 3rd and 1st world, kids we DESPERATELY need in the RPG hobby, who are unable or unwilling to spend over $100 to get into gaming, but might easily become valuable additions to gaming many years down the road.

Again, just like with the recording industry, the gaming industry has themselves at least in part to blame for the filesharing phenomenon. They don't market to third world countries; and they choose to make Ultra-expensive products for nerd Collectors, instead of affordable gaming products for people who can't go around spending $50-100 per book no matter how glossy or full-colour it is, and just want to be able to have rules to Roleplay with.

RPGPundit

Hey Pundy!

We agree completely on this issue.

Are you as scared as I am?:discoball:


(BTW, for those of you who don't get why I put a disco ball smiley after the part about being scared, well, honestly, isn't disco pretty scary?)

Man, what the fuck?

Now you're on the side of the poor oppressed game-less masses? Yes, that's just what the impoverished people living in the shanty towns around Lagos need - a pdf version of an rpg!

If people can't afford to buy an rpg, they can't afford an internet connection, so they can't download pirated stuff anyway.

It's not the impoverished masses of Nigeria or Burma downloading rpgs from p2p networks, it's middle-classed American, Aussie and UK kids, sucking it down along with their pr0n. If they can't afford to buy an rpg, it's because they spent their allowance at McDs.

It doesn't matter, anyway. At the same time as Johnny is downloading his scanned copy of d20 101 Magical Doorknobs, he's downloading Bisexual Pissing Orgy #8. While he's tugging away, it says "download finished" for the pdf. He's not going to stop in mid-wank to look at any rpg. He continues tossing off, messes up his keyboard, and forgets he ever download the pdf.

If you can afford an internet connection, you can afford rpgs. It's just a matter of whether you spent that money already on McDs and the PS3000 or whatever. Computer-mediated piracy of stuff is a middle-classed Western world kid's lark. Your impoverished Third World masses, geez...

"Sorry Mtumbe, I can't help you look through the rubbish tip this afternoon for tin cans, I'm off to the cyber-cafe to download Exalted."
"You, too? Man, my sister was supposed to be hoeing the beans this afternoon, instead she's off downloading Blue Rose. Frickin' rpgs."

Quote from: JimBobOzMan, what the fuck?

It's not the impoverished masses of Nigeria or Burma downloading rpgs from p2p networks, it's middle-classed American, Aussie and UK kids, sucking it down along with their pr0n. If they can't afford to buy an rpg, it's because they spent their allowance at McDs.

off-topic sorry, but classes are slightly different in the UK.

99% of UK people are working class
0.8% are middle class
0.2% are upper class

Quote from: Lawbag99% of UK people are working class
0.8% are middle class
0.2% are upper class

  That's not even remotely true.

Man, I would like to see some sort of stats on that.  Because right now you have me imagining your whole island as a Dickensian nightmare of smokestacks and the coal-streaked faces of youngsters being forced back down into the mines by Prime Minister (now Baroness) Thatcher.  And I can't imagine that sort of change in the few years since I've been there.