Quote from: cnath.rmSo to dovetail this thread with the other related thread, if I'm understanding this correctly, (and leaving out the moral/ethical questions) Pundit would like to see legal products available in South America, and Bill you see the roadblock to printing game products in country as a question of distribution once they are printed?

Yes, definitely. I am not familiar with the printers in South America but others have said that POD style digital printers exist. Printing is usually the easy part. It mostly takes a level of capital and a little leg work.

The major roadblocks, to break them down, would be marketing and distribution. First, marketing. What are similar products that sell in this market? Are there game stores or are they something else? From what Pundit has said, it sure sounds like a kiosk is a popular method for delivery. How can we garner a market share? If Yugioh sells then can we capitalize on that market? What is the price point that would work per unit? $5 - $10 is awfully tight but if there is more tolerence for lower production values then we can work towards a viable ROI. What sells well currently? Sci-Fi? Traditional Euro-Fantasy? D20? Non-d20? In Europe we have been seeing some success because d20 is softer and people are open to other systems.

Second part is distribution. Are there book distributors we could use in South America? I assume so but will it be dozens or one monolithic distributor. I have mixed feeling about this. I operated my stores in a time when there were may 4-5 distributors in the entire U.S. for RPG products. It made some things easier and others much worse. Who do current book stores use for their distributors? For that matter, how do the kiosks get their products? Will there be tarrifs and fees for moving stock? For instance, if I find a POD printer in Uruguay that is easy to work with and has good pricing will it cost me money to shift stock to Brazil? For that matter, is there a market in all of South America in the first place or is it localized to a few places?

There are many questions and some can be answered definitivly while others are only going to be guesses but we would want educated guesses, not just "All my friends game" type answers.

I would also add that if the pirate market is that brazen, questions of the capability to compete in such an environment would be...an issue.

Is that what you are looking for?

Bill

Yarrr, ye best bet would likely be ye companies (there be one or two) that translate and bring over from across the great Pacific ye books of Manga. Ye japanese comics be heartily popular in these here ports, me bucko!  And ye market would be similar.

Yar Harr.

YARRRPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYarrr, ye best bet would likely be ye companies (there be one or two) that translate and bring over from across the great Pacific ye books of Manga. Ye japanese comics be heartily popular in these here ports, me bucko!  And ye market would be similar.

Yar Harr.

YARRRPGPundit

I do not know about your neck of the woods but this does not always translate in the US or Europe. You would think it would but anime and manga along with comics are something of a dicey comparison. There are times when the two will sell side by side but it often takes different models. For instance, anime runs on a movie or comic model of a long series of releases or a monthly subscription. It can be tricky sometimes rolling those buying habits over into a purchase every few months. Now, if you are WOTC and releasing several books a month it can get easier.

What I would prefer to here about is how fantasy/sci-fi novels sell. Don't get me wrong, anime/manga is a good start but we would need to spread out our sampling.

Of course, all this is just me. My experiences are limited to about sixty retailers from across the US and Europe. It may not apply to South America.

Bill

Quote from: Geek MessiahWell if its paid for I know drivethrurpg marks their games with watermarks.   As for other places I know they don't, so you would have to get into a casual conversation and if they admit it then you turn them away.

Is it 100%?  No.   You do the best you can.  If enough of the game pirates are turned away they will either have to game with eachother or they will be forced to buy legit copies.

Well, I have to say that if you basically tried to get me to talk with you just to find out if I had a pirated copy then 'turned me away', I'd never game with you under any circumstances even if I had a legal copy.

You're not the copyright police.

Quote from: RPGPunditYar, in essence what ye be arguing is that the rich should get to play chess, but the poor only checkers, matey. To say that they can choose from any of 500 free RPGs made mostly by amateurs, that nary a salty seaman has ever heard of, but that they be vexed by neptune's fortune if they be wanting to actually play a game like D&D; nay, say ye, that be only for those who can PAY.

Then hurry the fuck up and publish your game, and give it away for free. Quit blathering here about it all, and get on with it.

Enough bullshit, time for action. You're talking like a typical middle-classed kid, chock-a-block with a big ole sense of entitlement.

:enw:

Quote from: HinterWeltI do not know about your neck of the woods but this does not always translate in the US or Europe. You would think it would but anime and manga along with comics are something of a dicey comparison. There are times when the two will sell side by side but it often takes different models. For instance, anime runs on a movie or comic model of a long series of releases or a monthly subscription. It can be tricky sometimes rolling those buying habits over into a purchase every few months. Now, if you are WOTC and releasing several books a month it can get easier.

What I would prefer to here about is how fantasy/sci-fi novels sell. Don't get me wrong, anime/manga is a good start but we would need to spread out our sampling.

Of course, all this is just me. My experiences are limited to about sixty retailers from across the US and Europe. It may not apply to South America.

Bill

Consider that an inevitable part of this business model would be to release a relatively slim main book (since it'd have to be a 100-page or smaller book in softcover or even magazine format), and then regular modules/adventures/sourcematerial/expansions on a monthly or bi-monthly basis.

Essentially, it'd be the "RPG as magazine" format, something that has worked very very well for Tormenta and 3D&T over in Brazil.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JimBobOzThen hurry the fuck up and publish your game, and give it away for free. Quit blathering here about it all, and get on with it.

Enough bullshit, time for action. You're talking like a typical middle-classed kid, chock-a-block with a big ole sense of entitlement.

:enw:

If I gave it away for free, it'd be on that list of "500 free games no one fucking wants".

No, I'm going to release the english version as a PDF, charge for it, and god willing there'll be sufficient public interest that it'll end up being put up in P2P networks and everything!

I have faith that those who can, and wish to honour the work that Forward...To Adventure! represents, will buy a legitimate copy of the PDF or do Print on Demand or whatever. But I certainly won't blame anyone who cannot afford to, and won't resent them getting the PDF by other means; nor will I give a shit about those who choose to get it that way even if they could pay for it, because I know that in all likelihood they would never have paid for it anyways.

As for the Spanish edition, that's still being translated, and the plan is to eventually work out how to release it in exactly the sort of format we're talking about here.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Mcrownope Yugi-Oh is actually one of the spendy ones,. even @ whole sale (potomac) they are $2.70 a pack, retail ~3.50 a pack. Thats about the same as magic these days.

Er, MtG boosters go for like $10 here (haven't checked in a while, it could be more). IIRC, the idiots print them in Europe and bring them here. Yugi-Oh is printed somewhere in Latin America, and thus has a lower price tag.

Quote from: RPGPunditConsider that an inevitable part of this business model would be to release a relatively slim main book (since it'd have to be a 100-page or smaller book in softcover or even magazine format), and then regular modules/adventures/sourcematerial/expansions on a monthly or bi-monthly basis.

Essentially, it'd be the "RPG as magazine" format, something that has worked very very well for Tormenta and 3D&T over in Brazil.

RPGPundit

Hmm, just to share my experience. Obviously you are closer to the actual situation than I am.

Squirrel Attack! is 60 pages in a statement size saddlestitch and retails for 12.99 USD. Color interior but noting extravagent, mostly maps.We are pushing 900 copies now, after gencon. The Pie Incident is the first adventure and it is statement size, color interior (again,mostly for the maps), and retails for 7.99 USD. It released in August and we are already past 200 which is pretty good for small press.

Hmm, I guess my biggest concern would be the release schedule of more than one supplement per month. I think you would need to look at hiring some freelance help. Maybe you have more time than me though and it would all work out in the end. I am just saying that work load has to be part of the consideration.

Good luck,
Bill

Quote from: JongWKEr, MtG boosters go for like $10 here (haven't checked in a while, it could be more). IIRC, the idiots print them in Europe and bring them here. Yugi-Oh is printed somewhere in Latin America, and thus has a lower price tag.

they used to be printed in Belgium, flown to the states and then shipped to the UK!

Quote from: JongWKEr, MtG boosters go for like $10 here (haven't checked in a while, it could be more). IIRC, the idiots print them in Europe and bring them here. Yugi-Oh is printed somewhere in Latin America, and thus has a lower price tag.

I think it may have changed by now, but a part of the problem getting ccg's out to the public when they first hit, was that all of the companies had them printed at Carta Mundi in Belgium. (something about nobody else having the right machines or them having the lowest costs I can't remember.) There were several good games that more or less died on the vine because they couldn't get starters out to the game stores. (Jihad/Vampire: The Etarnal Struggle is supposed to be a great card game, but my local shop only had boosters after the first week, and couldn't get anymore starters.  Had the same problem with M:TG as well.)

Quote from: Dominus NoxWell, I have to say that if you basically tried to get me to talk with you just to find out if I had a pirated copy then 'turned me away', I'd never game with you under any circumstances even if I had a legal copy.

You're not the copyright police.

At my game table I am.  

People who have pirated copies of games are not welcome at my table.  Have a legit copy or you don't play with my group.   Shun the pirates enough they will be forced to buy legit copies and wont have anywhere to play.

Getting the pirates to buy legit copies is better for the industry.

Quote from: Geek MessiahPeople who have pirated copies of games are not welcome at my table.  Have a legit copy or you don't play with my group.   Shun the pirates enough they will be forced to buy legit copies and wont have anywhere to play.

What about people that don't have a copy at all?

That's another thing that gets me about people who claim the pirates are destroying the industry and stealing money from games companies.

In the old days before piracy became an issue, at our games (for anything other than D&D) you'ld be lucky if anyone owned a rulebook other than the GM. I've yet to see anyone run a game from a pirated rulebook, so I'm not seeing where the loss in sales is. I've not seen any player bring a pirated rulebook to the table either.

What I have seen is people using a PDF of the rules to design there character for a game the GM is going to run, so all it seems to have done to change our gaming habits is the GM doesn't need to lend his rulebook out as often.

Quote from: BagpussWhat about people that don't have a copy at all?

That's another thing that gets me about people who claim the pirates are destroying the industry and stealing money from games companies.

In the old days before piracy became an issue, at our games (for anything other than D&D) you'ld be lucky if anyone owned a rulebook other than the GM. I've yet to see anyone run a game from a pirated rulebook, so I'm not seeing where the loss in sales is. I've not seen any player bring a pirated rulebook to the table either.

What I have seen is people using a PDF of the rules to design there character for a game the GM is going to run, so all it seems to have done to change our gaming habits is the GM doesn't need to lend his rulebook out as often.

I am used to there only being one copy (I prefer when a few people have the rule book that way there is more then one person with the rules who can help everyone out and make characters, making getting to play faster.

I encourage people in my group to have a copy.   That way things go easier and its better for the industry (as more books sold means more money for the game companies I like).  They can take that money to stay in business and keep putting out great games.

Quote from: Geek MessiahAt my game table I am.  

People who have pirated copies of games are not welcome at my table.  Have a legit copy or you don't play with my group.  

No big loss then...