What are your opinions on it?

For legal reasons, this site can't allow for information regarding how to fileshare to advertised on the forum, but we can have a robust discussion about the issue, as it pertains to RPGs.

RPGPundit

I'm against it.  The amount of geniunely free rpg material on the web makes it pointless.  And I want the people who crank out gaming stuff for my amusement to get paid.

I believe sharing of copyrighted works contrary to the work's license is immoral and betrays a lack of respect for creators.

I also believe it's not really an economic problem, and is blown out of proportion, and creators of all types suffer when they don't realize that they have a primed-and-ready advertising platform in file-sharing.

I used to use Napster and all those things, but do not any more. Like I said, I think that illegally downloading copyrighted material is entirely wrong.

I believe that it's a negative influence, financially.

Not "the end of the world" or anything like it, just another small bad influence in an already often cash-strapped mostly-cottage industry.

This is only an opinion, mind, based mainly on my own reading and my general thinking.  I know more people that fileshare and don't buy than I do that fileshare and then do buy.

So, Clinton; why do you think that it's not a negative financial deal?

Nicking threads from RPGnet pundit? I'm disappointed in you...

Anything that has the potential to take money from my pocket is a bad thing, both to me and my babbies.

Quote from: jrientsI'm against it.  The amount of geniunely free rpg material on the web makes it pointless.  And I want the people who crank out gaming stuff for my amusement to get paid.

You're making two points here:

1. There are Free RPGs, hence it is pointless that non-free RPGs should be pirated.
2. File sharing prevents game designers from being paid for their work.

My response to this, as devil's advocate would be:

1. In the real world, it doesn't work like that. The "point" is that more people have heard of/would like the chance to have D&D's "mysteries of the moonsea", instead of R. Bumquist Nobody's "Free Fantasy Heartbreaker RPG". So whether you are on the side that it is right or wrong, you cannot argue that the fact that there's thousands of free rpgs (some of them good, most of them awful, and almost all of them totally unknown) would make it "pointless" to pirate commercial RPGs.
It'd be kind of like saying that there's no point in downloading the Infinite Crisis novel from a file-sharer because you can get a free Bible from the Gideons. Hey, they're both literature, right?

2. There is no concrete evidence of just how much payment game designers (like music industry figures, or movie theaters) actually lose due to file sharing. There is some evidence that a huge percentage of people who download something are people who would never have bought that something in the first place.  There is also evidence that some of those who download end up buying said product anyways (a kind of "try before you buy", meaning that the argument against this is an argument in favour of customers getting screwed by being stuck with products they didn't really want).  The point is we don't really know; we don't know with the music industry, so we sure as hell don't know with the gaming industry.

RPGPundit, devil's advocate

I don't do it myself, but it doesn't offend me.

I have a friend who plays in my campaign. The first time we played, he surveyed my collection and asked "what books don't you have.." (which I thought was an odd question.) So of course, he showed up at the next session with a CD with several books burned on it.

Did I use it? Well, kinda. I opened the Eberron PDF and checked it out when we started looking into Eberron. It got too frustrating to use the pdf thingy so I went out and got a copy from Amazon. Another player gave me the PHB II for my birthday, and when we recruited him in to join our Eberron campaign, I gave him a second copy of Eberron just because I knew he'd probably never buy it himself.

So there, I was a pirate, and then I bought the damn thing twice.

And now (looks) I've already lost the CD.

EDIT- Hey look, I did what Pundit said in number 2!

Quote from: Clinton R. NixonI believe sharing of copyrighted works contrary to the work's license is immoral and betrays a lack of respect for creators.

I also believe it's not really an economic problem, and is blown out of proportion, and creators of all types suffer when they don't realize that they have a primed-and-ready advertising platform in file-sharing.

I used to use Napster and all those things, but do not any more. Like I said, I think that illegally downloading copyrighted material is entirely wrong.

Your point in the middle is interesting (and I agree with it; trying to put the genie back in the bottle won't work, now you need to try to use filesharing in a way that works, instead of trying to stop what is already unstoppable); but let's look at your first and last paragraph: you say that its "immoral", and "entirely wrong".
But you don't really say why, which is what I'd really like to know?
Why is it "immoral" and "entirely wrong"?

RPGPundit

I think it's a bad thing to do. Semantics aside, to freely share a work that's intented to feed the creator is taking something from them unfairly. OTOH the US laws on copyright have become ridiculous. It's been stretched so far that soon any work will retain it's copyright forever. That would be a very bad thing.

Quote from: One Horse TownNicking threads from RPGnet pundit? I'm disappointed in you...

I'd been thinking of this issue for some time, and its something that has come up on my blog a few times.
The thread on RPG.net was just a reminder that I wanted to post a thread on the same topic here.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JamesVI think it's a bad thing to do. Semantics aside, to freely share a work that's intented to feed the creator is taking something from them unfairly.

Does this mean that Libraries are "bad things to do"? What about Mix Tapes?

QuoteOTOH the US laws on copyright have become ridiculous. It's been stretched so far that soon any work will retain it's copyright forever. That would be a very bad thing.

Yup, to me that's a far greater "evil".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditDoes this mean that Libraries are "bad things to do"? What about Mix Tapes?

I don't really see file-sharing in the same league as a lending library, which is temporary and inconvenient to copy even today, or a mix-tape, which nowadays are often intentionally created by musicians to advertise their product. While some of the stuff on file servers were purchased by the server's owner, there are many places where the files are all copies obtained freely some place else. The super easy replication of files is stumbling block for me.

I've thought some on what a good standard of fair use for legally protected computer files would be, and I don't think there are easy answers.

It doesn't matter what I think, or if I am affected, as the Pundit doesn't believe anything I make qualifies as a real RPG.

Whatever

-clash

Quote from: Abyssal Maw"what books don't you have.."

I've gotten that question a few times, and asked it a few times.  I'm not against filesharing, but I don't use it extensively either.  I've used it to nab a book I wanted to see before I bought, or to grab OOP books.  I've also used it for books I already own, nothing beats an index better than a searchable PDF.  I think it's ridiculuous that publishers don't have good quality PDFs available with a book...should I ever become a publisher, I'd throw in a PDF with every book purchase.  It just makes sense.

I don't make a habit of grabbing books I don't have just to have them.  Now, if there's one rule or two out of a sourcebook and I don't want the whole book...that's different.

I use filesharing as a tool.  I use it for my school books all the damn time (textbooks are WAY too expensive), music from an artist I'd like to hear more of (before I buy the album, I always buy albums), and for missed episodes of TV shows.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou're making two points here:

1. There are Free RPGs, hence it is pointless that non-free RPGs should be pirated.
2. File sharing prevents game designers from being paid for their work.

My response to this, as devil's advocate would be:

1. In the real world, it doesn't work like that. The "point" is that more people have heard of/would like the chance to have D&D's "mysteries of the moonsea", instead of R. Bumquist Nobody's "Free Fantasy Heartbreaker RPG". So whether you are on the side that it is right or wrong, you cannot argue that the fact that there's thousands of free rpgs (some of them good, most of them awful, and almost all of them totally unknown) would make it "pointless" to pirate commercial RPGs.
It'd be kind of like saying that there's no point in downloading the Infinite Crisis novel from a file-sharer because you can get a free Bible from the Gideons. Hey, they're both literature, right?

2. There is no concrete evidence of just how much payment game designers (like music industry figures, or movie theaters) actually lose due to file sharing. There is some evidence that a huge percentage of people who download something are people who would never have bought that something in the first place.  There is also evidence that some of those who download end up buying said product anyways (a kind of "try before you buy", meaning that the argument against this is an argument in favour of customers getting screwed by being stuck with products they didn't really want).  The point is we don't really know; we don't know with the music industry, so we sure as hell don't know with the gaming industry.

RPGPundit, devil's advocate

Actually, I was thinking more along personal rather than policy lines.  Speaking for myself only I find pirating both pointless and counterproductive, in addition to being illegal and of dubious morality.

Legal or not, I don't need to pirate anything because I can get a bunch of stuff for free legitimately.  And some of it is quite good.  The SRD, Fudge, Risus, Encounter Critical.  The list goes on and on.  In an era where you can legally obtain almost the entire core rules of D&D for gratis, pirating seems like the king picking a peasant's pocket.

And I like it when I can support good designers so they produce more material.  I'm one of those crazy cats who sent Vincent Baker a check during the time when he was sending out copies of kpfs for free with a little note "if you like it, maybe send me a fiver".  Did Baker need the $6.66 I sent him?  Probably not, but if I get to choose I want game designers encouraged by sales revenue rather than discouraged by seeing people swiping their stuff.