Quote from: flyingmiceWhen I first read this, years ago, I was reduced to helpless tears. The humor is so barbed and vicious that it's painful! This - along with Innocents Abroad and the "skull of Shakespeare as a young man" persuaded me to buy the entire Twain ouvre. Cooper may not be art - though I love him - but Twain's criticism is. My favorite part is the indians dropping off the branch one by one, further and further behind the boat...

-mice

Lord, yes.  That still makes me laugh.   And for Settembrini, may I present "The Awful German Language".
 :heh:

Not to get too far off topic, but The Innocents Abroad, Roughing It, and Life on The Mississippi are 3 of my favorite books of all time.  Sharp humor, a perfect sense of precisely which word will be funniest, and one of the keenest literary eyes of all time make his books still riotous, even well over 100+ years later.

Quote from: flyingmiceIf everything is art, then art is a meaningless word, and the world is better off without it.

I have no idea who said that everything was art, or even most things. Did I miss it somewhere in this thread?

It is certainly not my position that everything is art. My position is that most pf the people in this thread have too narrow a definition of art.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstNot to get too far off topic, but The Innocents Abroad, Roughing It, and Life on The Mississippi are 3 of my favorite books of all time.  Sharp humor, a perfect sense of precisely which word will be funniest, and one of the keenest literary eyes of all time make his books still riotous, even well over 100+ years later.

His description of the coyote in Roughing It still makes me laugh when I think of it...

-mice

Quote from: KrakaJakI enjoy quite a lot of things.

I can't imagine how. Especially considering your very narrow definition of what art and entertainment is.

QuoteHowever there is a difference betweeen ART and ENTERTAINMENT.

Yes. But art can be entertaining can't it? See the problem here is you're assuming we will all accept your very subjective opinion. And maybe some of these wankers will.  And you guys can pat each other on the back and talk about how sart you think you really are, but some of us dissent.

Art does not have to be exclusive from entertaining. In fact, is there any other reason for art for us as consumers? (Obviously as creators it is different, but then I don't expect anyone here to undertsand that.)

QuoteBut unless it has exceeded it's medium then it remains  as it was.

And who judges that? You?

Let me be clear too:

I despise the seemingly careless way many of seem to disregard anything that doesn't meet your own definition of art. Art is subjective-that is what makes it so fascinating and amazing. There is no mathematical equation to what is and isn't art. That is an individual and subjective opinion.

And that's what bugs me about you people. You're assuming your opinions are fact. Carved in stone, set in granite fact.

Forgive me for ranting, but nothing disgusts me more.

Shadowrun is art to me. It has changed my life. I don't expect it to be art for everyone esle. Comic books are art to me. Sex is art to me at times. Pornography, graffitti, archetecture, writing, all of it.

Now maybe you can sit there and make some sort of imaginary line and declare one side art and the other entertainment, but I try to look at the world with out my own biases interfering in that view. I try not to force my own catergorization on others.

None of you, based on your posting, would last five minutes in a game I run. None of you have the imagination. None of you have the ability to look outside of the box. You're the worst kind of gamers to me.

Roll players.

I agree with the late Douglas Adams that the idea of art kills creativity. It's a word laden with all kinds of icky connotations and heaviness that does nothing to encourage anyone - gamer, novelist, painter, musician, whatever - to have a good time making something good.

But given that I distinguish between art and AHHHHT, RPGs are frequently art.

If they try to be AHHHHT, count me the fuck out. And I don't just mean games. My hair is not yet blue enough, my pulse not yet weak enough, for AHHHHT.

QuoteAnd that's what bugs me about you people. You're assuming your opinions are fact. Carved in stone, set in granite fact.

You are ver ignorant and full of your pre-conception on what you want to think about others. I said, right at the start, that ANYTHING can be art. And that I personally laugh about those who view the ACTUAL PLAY as anything worth comparing to great works of art.
Sure, it is a personal thing. Sure there is no bright line.

That's why I personally despise them, for having made an uneducated decision based on sentiment instead of rationality.

People consider American Idol to be art. If it is for them, it is undeniably so. But I, sir, have the total freedom, to think that those people lack in:

1) taste

and

2) perspective

You  relish in one side of cultural relativism. Bear with the other. if it is your personal decision, live with others making a DIFFERENT one, and laughing about you for choosing crumbly cheddar as the "next big thing". If a shadowrun novel is literature for you, go ahead. I know that you don't know what is really good. If art is anything, no value in exclaiming "but it is art" remains.

Quote from: Serious PaulLet me be clear too:

None of you, based on your posting, would last five minutes in a game I run. None of you have the imagination. None of you have the ability to look outside of the box. You're the worst kind of gamers to me.

Roll players.

Classic! Moral relativism and solipsism all balled into one! I feel I must reply in kind!

Well, you're just a poopyhead!



-mice

Quote from: S. John RossIf they try to be AHHHHT, count me the fuck out. And I don't just mean games. My hair is not yet blue enough, my pulse not yet weak enough, for AHHHHT.

Hi S. John! Good to see your smiling face in here!

-mice

Unlike you, however, I don't package my opinions as fact. In fact I preface them with the warning that they are just that: my opinions. Stand upon your soap box, and laugh.

I on the other hand stand by my remarks: you guys are a bunch of stuffed shirts.

You're all welcome to sit at my table and find out what fun really is.

Quote from: flyingmiceHi S. John! Good to see your smiling face in here!

-mice

Heya! Yeah, we'll see how it goes ... I self-banned from RPGnet because theorists and story-people were flooding Open like raw sewage. I recently learned of this RPGpundit character when Googling to catch up on what happened to Nutkinland, and he seems like a kind of kindred spirit, in a warped sort of way. And then I read Jeff's Gameblog and it says there's a forum by the same guy, so here I am.

Here's hopin' I've finally found a forum for gamers who love gaming. If not, no harm done, and I can keep searching, like Diogenes with a wind-up flashlight

Try Animal Ball. At least we don't pretend to be smarter or more fun than all the rest of the geeks like us.

QuoteUnlike you, however, I don't package my opinions as fact.

If I think shadowrun to be consumerist rubbish w/o any higher art in it, it would be a disservice to humanity to not utter that when needed. It's a matter of intellectual hygiene, as is pointing out that reading a newspaper is superiour to watching the Daily Show.

If no one makes a stand for quality and the true greatness of the achievements of civilization, then there can be no discourse, just Jack and his shitty holy ("every sperm is sacred...") statements.

Quote from: Serious PaulYou're all welcome to sit at my table and find out what fun really is.

No thanks, buddy! You're too serious for me. You have so much gravitas light bends around you. I prefer enjoying my fun.

-mice

Quote from: S. John RossHere's hopin' I've finally found a forum for gamers who love gaming. If not, no harm done, and I can keep searching, like Diogenes with a wind-up flashlight

I seldom post at RPGnet much any more, and for the same reasons. I am clutching my trusty wind-up - it plays pop goes the weasel when I wind it - and peering into the darkness too. I'm not holding my breath though.

-mice