Quote from: SettembriniThe problem with the whole thing is:

WHY would anybody insist on calling it art, AND have that acknowledged by everybody else? What are the motives behind that?

Agreed.

Although I will say that I feel art can take many different forms, and doesn't require audience, in my humblest of opinions, or acknowledgement.

I see my Game Mastering as art form. I put a lot of love, and care, and creativity into it. I make maps by hand, I create worlds from nothing. To me it's an art, even if it isn't high art.

IIRC Gary Gygax asks a rhetorical question at the front of the original Dungeon Master's Guide:
 "DMing, is it an art or a science?"

I'm a big fan of the man, but my answer to the question is "Neither, trying to shoehorn this new activity into either or both labels does a disservice to all three.  Let DMing stand or fall on its own merits, not whether it falls into some pre-existing category of highly regarded human activity."

Quote from: SettembriniWriting anything can be art. As can be the crafting of anything. Using the artifact is not.

Gotcha!

So what a playwright does can be described as art, but what the cast and the director of the play do cannot?

QuoteSo what a playwright does can be described as art, but what the cast and the director of the play do cannot?

Basically, yes. There are times, when there is creative freedom, there can be an imrovised artistic expression. But only the playwright is actually an artist.

EDIT: Maybe there is a language problem involved in our discussion. Your "gotcha" makes me think you were totally sure in your point. I'm abit puzzled, as for me it is totally clear, that a director is not an artist most of the time.

I just checked, and there are a lot of words in english, which have "artist" in them, where I never would have thought:

con
graphic
make up
tatoo
comic-strip

-artists.

So maybe the word has a broader meaning.

Settembrini, I think one could argue that 'artist' is so prevalent in English because the word is being diluted to mean any practioner of a skill or craft.

Quote from: jrientsSettembrini, I think one could argue that 'artist' is so prevalent in English because the word is being diluted to mean any practioner of a skill or craft.

Yeah, but with the exception of con and make-up artists, I think the suffix can more than apply to the rest of Settimbrini's list.

I'm sure you can find make-up artists that will take umbrage at your statement.

As would con artists.

Quote from: jrientsSettembrini, I think one could argue that 'artist' is so prevalent in English because the word is being diluted to mean any practioner of a skill or craft.

I don't think the word is diluted so much as there is probably some historical language connection between 'artist' and 'artisan', the latter of which has been used to describe folks like the furniture maker, stonemason and craftsmen of the sort.

Quote from: SettembriniBasically, yes. There are times, when there is creative freedom, there can be an imrovised artistic expression. But only the playwright is actually an artist.

EDIT: Maybe there is a language problem involved in our discussion. Your "gotcha" makes me think you were totally sure in your point. I'm abit puzzled, as for me it is totally clear, that a director is not an artist most of the time.

Yeah, there must be a language problem.  I know a number of theatrical professionals who (some actors, one director) who consider what they do to be art.

Do you have any idea of how many ways you can say "To be, or not to be..."?  How many ways Hamlet has been staged?

I think a game could be art. At their core games are interactive. There is something interesting about a piece of art that, because of its interactivity, reveals something about the human condition. It's one thing to read a book and understand what an author has to say. It's another to, through your own actions, form a deeper understanding of the world or come across an insight into the human condition.

I think that, right now, the typical RPG has as much to with art as a corporate PowerPoint presentation or a grade school teacher's math lesson. Sure, they all involve writing and interaction, but is this anything more than an exchange of information?

Show me an RPG that could, say, convert a Christian to Islam, or turn a pro-death penalty advocate against his cause, and then maybe I'll talk about an RPG that is art. Until then, RPGs serve primarily as entertainment and to reinforce already existing beliefs, beliefs usually founded on the lofty tenet of conspicuous consumption.

Quote from: mearlsShow me an RPG that could, say, convert a Christian to Islam, or turn a pro-death penalty advocate against his cause, and then maybe I'll talk about an RPG that is art.

Nice one.  RPGs haven't had their Shakespeare, their Voltaire or their El Greco yet.  Perhaps they never will

However, because they encourage you to put yourself inside the mind of another character, to view things from their perspective, the capacity of RPGs to alter the way that the consumer views the world should, in theory, be greater than most mediums.

To the best of my knowledge, the only game that has explicitly tried to do this is DragonRaid, though some of the oWoD games (particularly Werewolf and Mage) have a strong anti-technology, pro-environment bias.  I haven't read the game myself, but, unless the Pundit is completely mis-representing Blue Rose, that game might be another.

Something to think about guys.  BADD could be right - we really could be warping the fragile minds of teenagers

Here's my obtuse reply: I don't even consider RPG art as art. It's illustration.

-mice

How about this:

* role playing game design can be art.  A well-designed RPG system and setting can have an internal logical beauty akin to a superb piece of computer programming or a piece of architecture.

* roleplaying games use the tools of art--performance, imagination, improvisation, etc.--that can enable artistic expression within a gaming session.  It isn't a lasting kind of art, but a particularly inspired bit of performance on the part of a gamer could be artistic if judged according to the impact of the acting and effect on the other participants.

* That said, roleplaying games are tools for art rather than artistic objects in their own right.  Unlike a play, a game doesn't provide a message or an experience of the senses/imagination the way, say, one of Shakespeare's plays does.  One can read Romeo and Juliet and be affected emotionally and intellectually.  A game needs the further creative input of a GM and the players to fulfill any artistic premise inherent in system or setting.  RPG's by themselves are clay, not pots.