...um
https://www.polygon.com/22417339/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft-harakir-ankhotep-the-mummy-preview?fbclid=IwAR2wI0fuAuRWIMlnFqSbArEAvKcMzACH4MO6hRKfBglIW2QAqznXkqJlNso
I'm sure we'll all have opinions. Let me start.
A page search returns zero results for the word "gothic"...
Polygon is run by idiots. Charlie Hall (the author) is also an idiot.
My favorite bit:
"Why is there a Domain that is a desert that is riddled with these ancient, inexplicable haunted monuments and ruined pyramids?" Schneider said. "How does a Domain like that exist? How does it make sense? To an extent it doesn't, and it's going to be the players that come and explore that, who are some of the only people that realize that the entirety of the domain is, to an extent, gaslighting them."
Way to fucking rediscover fire, Charlie. That's one of the core bits about the Demiplane of Dread. It deliberately fucks with its inhabitants on multiple levels, especially its Darklords.
I've been a Ravenloft fan for thirty years, with netbook and Dragon articles on the setting to my name.
This looks like they're taking out a lot of the elements I liked (classic monster archetypes, the Gothic atmosphere, the moral underpinnings of the setting, the product aesthetics), doubling-down on elements I didn't like (the real-world fortunetelling elements, the Gnostic/Sadean idea of the world as fundamentally evil and irrational), and suffusing the whole thing with their hamfisted 'diversity' approach as well as making it much more D&Dish than its predecessors.
Even if I hadn't found Curse of Strahd underwhelming on a readthrough, and wasn't boycotting WotC on principle, I don't think I'd be inclined to pick this up for anything more than completion or morbid curiosity. There are a few things I do want to see how they handle--Bluetspur, G'Henna, and Risbilios--but that is again morbid curiosity. This was WotC's one big chance to win me over, and they've blown it. Bear in mind that I started moving back into 4E when they announced the Ravenloft revival that never wound up happening. :D
That article does not get off to a good start: "Lead designer Wes Schneider told Polygon that the goal was to move beyond the derivative tropes that have plagued the Ravenloft setting in the past."
Derivative tropes exist because they're time-tested, and they're precisely the things that people loved about the setting. So they're ditching that, and replacing it with what's going to end up as a new of set of derivative tropes, because anyone who thinks they're so original that they're not going to use derivative tropes is deluding themselves with hubris.
Heh. Think Pharazia will be in the new one?
The desert realm with the Darklord who is a prophet and messenger to his people, adheres to a very strict and puritanical system of laws, and seeks to purge all the non-believers and heretics from his realm?
Imma guess it isn't, but I wasn't super impressed with two mildly different desert realms anyway.
Unfortunately the terrorists at WotC and elsewhere won't stop until they've taken everything good you ever liked, gutted it, and paraded it around in a skin suit that only bears superficial resemblance to what it used to be.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 05, 2021, 01:42:10 PM
Polygon is run by idiots. Charlie Hall (the author) is also an idiot.
My favorite bit:
"Why is there a Domain that is a desert that is riddled with these ancient, inexplicable haunted monuments and ruined pyramids?" Schneider said. "How does a Domain like that exist? How does it make sense? To an extent it doesn't, and it's going to be the players that come and explore that, who are some of the only people that realize that the entirety of the domain is, to an extent, gaslighting them."
Way to fucking rediscover fire, Charlie. That's one of the core bits about the Demiplane of Dread. It deliberately fucks with its inhabitants on multiple levels, especially its Darklords.
It's depressing that these people are so deeply indoctrinated into their own cult that they can't even conceive of basic concepts like deception without having to express it in their cult pidgin language ("gaslighting").
Greetings!
From the article:
"It's a setting that in the past has leveraged problematic Orientalist tropes to tell its tales"
These people are so fucking brainwashed with the Critical Race Theory and woke bullshit. Geesus. It is so sad to see them just fucking ruin and corrupt every goddamned thing they touch. They are all like drooling moron barbarians. "Heee-Heee! Lets cover everything in shit! Isn't this fun?" They will continue to pour shit into every fucking book, every fucking D&D module, until they are unrecognizable.
Pundit has always been right about this, even if his cock-sucking critics refuse to see it or admit it. These CRT SJW's hate D&D, and want to destroy D&D. They hate traditional RPG's, and they fucking hate and despise normal gamers.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 05, 2021, 01:42:10 PM
Polygon is run by idiots. Charlie Hall (the author) is also an idiot.
My favorite bit:
"Why is there a Domain that is a desert that is riddled with these ancient, inexplicable haunted monuments and ruined pyramids?" Schneider said. "How does a Domain like that exist? How does it make sense? To an extent it doesn't, and it's going to be the players that come and explore that, who are some of the only people that realize that the entirety of the domain is, to an extent, gaslighting them."
Way to fucking rediscover fire, Charlie. That's one of the core bits about the Demiplane of Dread. It deliberately fucks with its inhabitants on multiple levels, especially its Darklords.
1: I wrote Polygon off long ago as the village idiots of a village of idiots.
2: Man. Egypt makes no sense! Its a big desert with all these haunted tombs full of treasure. Egypt is gaslighting explorers!
Anubis wept.
3: They havent rediscovered anything because they cant even find the earth to find the forest for a tree. Just reading that paragraph kills brain cells. Someone call Darkseid. We have found the Anti-Life Formula!
Quote from: SHARK on May 05, 2021, 03:37:55 PM
Greetings!
From the article:
"It's a setting that in the past has leveraged problematic Orientalist tropes to tell its tales"
These people are so fucking brainwashed with the Critical Race Theory and woke bullshit. Geesus. It is so sad to see them just fucking ruin and corrupt every goddamned thing they touch. They are all like drooling moron barbarians. "Heee-Heee! Lets cover everything in shit! Isn't this fun?" They will continue to pour shit into every fucking book, every fucking D&D module, until they are unrecognizable.
Pundit has always been right about this, even if his cock-sucking critics refuse to see it or admit it. These CRT SJW's hate D&D, and want to destroy D&D. They hate traditional RPG's, and they fucking hate and despise normal gamers.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Shark seethe is weird bc it is so formal but so crude. Orientalism was def real when they made the inspo for this shit whether you think it's still a Thing now or not, all them hemophiliac romanticists getting the vapors over the cool stuff in the Levant and whatnot
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 05, 2021, 01:42:10 PM
Polygon is run by idiots. Charlie Hall (the author) is also an idiot.
My favorite bit:
"Why is there a Domain that is a desert that is riddled with these ancient, inexplicable haunted monuments and ruined pyramids?" Schneider said. "How does a Domain like that exist? How does it make sense? To an extent it doesn't, and it's going to be the players that come and explore that, who are some of the only people that realize that the entirety of the domain is, to an extent, gaslighting them."
Way to fucking rediscover fire, Charlie. That's one of the core bits about the Demiplane of Dread. It deliberately fucks with its inhabitants on multiple levels, especially its Darklords.
the eerieness of things not making sense was part of the appeal of ravenloft for me. that twilight zone'esque "the town is supposed to be on the other side of the river...oh shit our home village has been copied, sort of?" wierd taint just below the surface.
Quote from: Count WokulaWhether it's the Boris Karloff version [of The Mummy], or the Brendan Fraser one, there's the story of outsiders coming in and having adventures in this other culture...
Which is the literal premise of Ravenloft.
Quote from: I, WokestrahdWhy is there a Domain that is a desert that is riddled with these ancient, inexplicable haunted monuments and ruined pyramids?" Schneider said. "How does a Domain like that exist? How does it make sense?
Why is the land filled with hidden treasures from an ancient fallen empire, with inexplicable dungeons and ruined castles? How does it even make sense?
Quote from: SHARK on May 05, 2021, 03:37:55 PM
These people are so fucking brainwashed with the Critical Race Theory and woke bullshit. Geesus. It is so sad to see them just fucking ruin and corrupt every goddamned thing they touch. They are all like drooling moron barbarians. "Heee-Heee! Lets cover everything in shit! Isn't this fun?" They will continue to pour shit into every fucking book, every fucking D&D module, until they are unrecognizable.
Pundit has always been right about this, even if his cock-sucking critics refuse to see it or admit it. These CRT SJW's hate D&D, and want to destroy D&D. They hate traditional RPG's, and they fucking hate and despise normal gamers.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Welp, again you're right.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 05, 2021, 01:38:07 PM
...um
https://www.polygon.com/22417339/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft-harakir-ankhotep-the-mummy-preview?fbclid=IwAR2wI0fuAuRWIMlnFqSbArEAvKcMzACH4MO6hRKfBglIW2QAqznXkqJlNso
I'm sure we'll all have opinions. Let me start.
A page search returns zero results for the word "gothic"...
No surprise there. People who hate the legacy of D&D taking a dump all over one of its most loved settings/realms.
Makes one wonder when these types are gonna get some sense slapped into them and stop begin such spoiled, destructive tarts.
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on May 06, 2021, 01:34:03 AMNo surprise there. People who hate the legacy of D&D taking a dump all over one of its most loved settings/realms.
Makes one wonder when these types are gonna get some sense slapped into them and stop begin such spoiled, destructive tarts.
As long as marketing can keep pushing the combined screeds of "diversity at all costs!" and "Outrage Marketing is freeeeee advertising!" we are not going to see it die anytime soon.
Its much the same with the marketing obsessions with the damn "5 year plan" and "subvert expectations!" and any other marketing fad they have locked on.
Quote from: Omega on May 06, 2021, 01:57:18 AM
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on May 06, 2021, 01:34:03 AMNo surprise there. People who hate the legacy of D&D taking a dump all over one of its most loved settings/realms.
Makes one wonder when these types are gonna get some sense slapped into them and stop begin such spoiled, destructive tarts.
As long as parketing can keep pushing the combined screeds of "diversity at all costs!" and "Outrage Marketing is freeeeee advertising!" we are not going to see it die anytime soon.
Its much the same with the marketing obsessions with the damn "5 year plan" and "subvert expectations!" and any other marketing fad they have locked on.
An additional point (you're not wrong btw) is this belief that social media reflects the overall trends in a market, when... that's not really true at all.
Quote from: Omega on May 06, 2021, 01:57:18 AM
As long as parketing can keep pushing the combined screeds of "diversity at all costs!" and "Outrage Marketing is freeeeee advertising!" we are not going to see it die anytime soon.
Its much the same with the marketing obsessions with the damn "5 year plan" and "subvert expectations!" and any other marketing fad they have locked on.
I don't think it's
just marketing. As much as people don't want to hear it, I think there's strong evidence that many on the design team at WotC are True Believers in this stuff.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 06, 2021, 09:13:58 AMI think there's strong evidence that many on the design team at WotC are True Believers in this stuff.
People need to feel a sense of meaning and purpose in how they spend their life. When your career is essentially the creation and promulgation of a luxury leisure activity, the temptation to buy into a philosophy that tells you these games aren't
just games, that they actually can and should improve their players and the world somehow, must be quite overwhelming.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 06, 2021, 12:14:39 PM
People need to feel a sense of meaning and purpose in how they spend their life. When your career is essentially the creation and promulgation of a luxury leisure activity, the temptation to buy into a philosophy that tells you these games aren't just games, that they actually can and should improve their players and the world somehow, must be quite overwhelming.
Good point, and a strong argument for the proposition that this hobby should have a lot more stuff produced by hobbyists than by people who need to make a living at it and thus make a life out of it. :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 06, 2021, 12:21:23 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 06, 2021, 12:14:39 PM
People need to feel a sense of meaning and purpose in how they spend their life. When your career is essentially the creation and promulgation of a luxury leisure activity, the temptation to buy into a philosophy that tells you these games aren't just games, that they actually can and should improve their players and the world somehow, must be quite overwhelming.
Good point, and a strong argument for the proposition that this hobby should have a lot more stuff produced by hobbyists than by people who need to make a living at it and thus make a life out of it. :)
Hey whaddaya know a thing I agree with, stripping out the money aspect as much as possible would be great for this tirefire of a hobby.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 06, 2021, 12:21:23 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 06, 2021, 12:14:39 PM
People need to feel a sense of meaning and purpose in how they spend their life. When your career is essentially the creation and promulgation of a luxury leisure activity, the temptation to buy into a philosophy that tells you these games aren't just games, that they actually can and should improve their players and the world somehow, must be quite overwhelming.
Good point, and a strong argument for the proposition that this hobby should have a lot more stuff produced by hobbyists than by people who need to make a living at it and thus make a life out of it. :)
Especially when the paid "talent" are hacks where the intersection of their contributions and "talent" (and work and thought and other useful things) would be drawn as an asymptote on the extreme tail end of the diagram. They are a living illustration of the difference between mathematically zero and "for all practical purposes" zero.
I was about to go 'But Ravenloft is already pretty high fantasy its just also gothic'
But then I read it was a POLYGON article.
Nuff said.
Quote from: Pat on May 05, 2021, 02:25:59 PM
That article does not get off to a good start: "Lead designer Wes Schneider told Polygon that the goal was to move beyond the derivative tropes that have plagued the Ravenloft setting in the past."
Derivative tropes exist because they're time-tested, and they're precisely the things that people loved about the setting. So they're ditching that, and replacing it with what's going to end up as a new of set of derivative tropes, because anyone who thinks they're so original that they're not going to use derivative tropes is deluding themselves with hubris.
This. Tropes work.
So called "Originality" does not = Quality.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 06, 2021, 08:06:37 AM
An additional point (you're not wrong btw) is this belief that social media reflects the overall trends in a market, when... that's not really true at all.
Yes. Why practically everyone thinks this is true has been baffling since the advent of online forums and online surveys.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 06, 2021, 09:13:58 AM
I don't think it's just marketing. As much as people don't want to hear it, I think there's strong evidence that many on the design team at WotC are True Believers in this stuff.
True. But they would not be getting traction everywhere if marketing were not pushing it so relentlessly. We've seen it over in board gaming too.
"You cant have George Washington in your historical game! He was Wacist! (The SJW idiot version of racist)" or, I kid you not. "You cant have a game about exploring Africa! That promotes Genocide!!!"
Quote from: Omega on May 06, 2021, 06:04:49 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 06, 2021, 08:06:37 AM
An additional point (you're not wrong btw) is this belief that social media reflects the overall trends in a market, when... that's not really true at all.
Yes. Why practically everyone thinks this is true has been baffling since the advent of online forums and online surveys.
What is it, like 90 percent of the traffic on Twitter is generated by maybe fifteen percent of the accounts?
Hell, I'd be leery of using online surveys as well. Do we need another reminder that 4chan tried to send Justin Bieber to North Korea?
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 06, 2021, 06:11:10 PM
What is it, like 90 percent of the traffic on Twitter is generated by maybe fifteen percent of the accounts?
Pareto rule: 80% of anything comes from 20% of the population.
unpopular opinion- Ravenloft was always a shit module.
Relax people. All the old shit is available on .pdf. Let Hazards-of-the-bro try in vain to remake the world in its image. The internet is forever...
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on May 06, 2021, 08:54:11 PM
Relax people. All the old shit is available on .pdf. Let Hazards-of-the-bro try in vain to remake the world in its image. The internet is forever...
I don't know about you, but I'm plenty relaxed. I have my old books (and reprints from POD) and my popcorn to much while watching this dumpster fire.
My only objection to the OP is that it is unfair to label what they are doing as an attempt at "high fantasy". Some high fantasy may very well be dreck. Some of it may even be dreck because it is high fantasy. But with this crowd, it's just dreck, period. Any resemblance to high fantasy is an accident.
"This time around [...] we provide you all of the elements needed to be somebody from Har'Akir, and to have this world be your world. This isn't necessarily a story about going into tombs and grave robbing and pillaging somebody else's past. This can very easily be [a story about] your home. [Your character] can imagine a world where there are not these horrors, and it's up to you to make them better. That's a quite different proposition from what you see in many of these classic horror stories, but also nonetheless terrifying because now what's happening is within your own home."
Isn't this "cultural appropriation"?
Not that it matters: anything these days can be distorted to make you the evilest person in the whole history ever ::)
Quote from: Reckall on May 07, 2021, 01:46:16 PM
"This time around [...] we provide you all of the elements needed to be somebody from Har'Akir, and to have this world be your world. This isn't necessarily a story about going into tombs and grave robbing and pillaging somebody else's past. This can very easily be [a story about] your home. [Your character] can imagine a world where there are not these horrors, and it's up to you to make them better. That's a quite different proposition from what you see in many of these classic horror stories, but also nonetheless terrifying because now what's happening is within your own home."
Isn't this "cultural appropriation"?
Not that it matters: anything these days can be distorted to make you the evilest person in the whole history ever ::)
It's also not new—rules and details for natives of Har'Akir and other non-European domains go back to
Domains of Dread 24 years ago. Har'Akir actually got a Good-aligned secret society and a unique priest kit in the 2E days.
The new edition definitely has zero interest for me. But then I started losing interest in S&S Ravenloft and WOTC handling of it in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft completely killed my interest in anything Ravenloft from WOTC. The new stuff looks like it might appeal to modern fans a bit, but I find the aesthetics of it very off-putting. Stuff like the focus on other types of horror, rather than making the main dish classic and gothic horror, completely kills any interest. I don't mind changes to the setting, as it is in its nature, and I don't mind swapping up characters genders here and there and races if they are rebooting, but the way they are doing it feels very ham-fisted and done for the sake of scoring political points rather than because it is good for the domain (more female domain lords for example is a plus for me with Ravenloft, because I think some of the the best domain lords were female, but I don't want them all to be so woke: I like my horror messy, troubling, and not doing this balancing act with its villains where they are evil but their storylines are also wholesome enough that they don't violate peoples current senses of propriety. The safety tools stuff I also find very off-putting in a horror setting. It just feels like it is Ravenloft written for elementary school kids who can't handle anything a little difficult. Also completely removing the core as a concept (from what I can see), bothers me. I really liked having both a core with connected lands and islands of terror. And this appears to be turning things into the island of terror approach (which is great for monster of the week, but Ravenloft is more than monster of the week). The islands were definitely good for having a campaign where players drifted from one threat to the next, and the GM had lots of control for planning adventures. And they should have been explicit about that in the book this time. But I think you also need to have a more open area to run games so Ravenloft isn't as limited. Maybe they have a core and I just missed it, but big important domains look like islands of terror now. That said, even though I don't like the aesthetics of the art, the art quality looks good. And it looks like a lot of interesting creative decisions were made when you ignore the things I am complaining about (and it is nice to see Jiangshi in there). It is just too far away from the philosophy laid out in the black box for me, and seems to be a little hostile to older fans (getting what I would call Last Jedi vibes on it).