Quote from: AsenRG;940928I think "a momentum system" is the best term, since it helps you track the momentum of the fight.

But a traditional combat system aimed at representing cause & effect in a rational way might have a momentum system that represents something that might exist in reality, such as physical momentum in a charge or some sort of group morale or something.

In contrast, the mechanics I've been reading about in Mordiphius games seem to be about adding an OOC influence that doesn't represent anything realistic in the game universe - instead it represents narrative balance or intentions to create a tense heroic story based on the desire for that sort of game but not representing anything in the game universe. In some cases it might accidentally correspond to something that makes sense (e.g. maybe the player rolling lots of extra success points by auto-firing an HMG and giving the successes to others is only being used to things that could be real results of good cover/suppression fire or something) but could also very easily not make any sense other than in a meta-game OOC device for generating difficulty or tension or some sort of gameplay for its own sake with no in-game reason for it existing.

"OOC" sort of fits, but isn't enough. hmm... and it goes beyond just having some characters have occasional luck/blessing re-rolls, because of things like being able to choose to dodge/parry only if you generate doom the GM can use to fiat-break-your-arm or something later. "OOC surreal game mechanics"? Is there not already a term for these?

Quote from: Sommerjon;940903I'm rubber your glue...

Which is why you keep getting stuck failing. Glue beats rubber. :cool:

(oh. And you failed at even getting the quote right...)

Quote from: Skarg;941002But a traditional combat system aimed at representing cause & effect in a rational way might have a momentum system that represents something that might exist in reality, such as physical momentum in a charge or some sort of group morale or something.

First, the momentum of a charge isn't the momentum I'm speaking of. I'm speaking of getting advantage and using it to press your initiative. It applies to personal and group fights alike, and the system in Conan is far from the worst representation I've seen.

And yeah, it might. In fact, I'd argue that systems aiming for cause and effect should have it. What I wonder is why most don't have anything of the sort, though.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;940997You do realize that RPGs resolve more than 'combat', right?

Try re-reading my post again, this time for comprehension.

Pay particular attention to this sentence.

QuoteOther types of games are often designed and packaged in to handle other aspects of a RPG campaign.

To spell it out this include doing stuff as your character other than combat. And to state the fucking obvious I am well aware that many if not most RPGS design their skill system to be use for combat and the other stuff. Doesn't change my point that it is idiotic to use a wargame as a tool for collaborative storytelling in the light of the alternatives that far more are using.

In case you are clueless about what I am talking about. The amount of people engaged in writing, collaborating,  and sharing stories using various types of software on the internet is easily a 100x the total number of hobbyists playing RPGs. Some it is what called fan-fiction, other are original stories. They cover all kinds of topics, and there are dozens of ways people turns into a group activity. The one I follow and participate in a little is Alternate History. But there places for Harry Potter, Science Fiction, Romance, etc, etc. I read of people getting together in-person to do collaborative story writing. All of which doesn't involve the overhead of trying hammer a game into some kind of writing tool.

I am very negative about it, because time and time again the process of trying to turn a RPG into a storytelling destroys the flexibility that makes RPGs a unique form of gaming. Discussions about storygames are rarely about what I can do, but what I can't do. Oh the basilisk can't turn the dumb ass PC into stone because the GM doesn't have any doom points. Oh PC can't swing across the room on a chandeliers because he ran out of Fate points. And when you suggest just letting the event happen or just roll a dice to see if it happens. You get a collective gasp and finger wagging about how you are violating the "rules".  Or depending on the topic a lecture about the tyranny of the referee.

Modiphus is trying to push something they think that creates swords & sorcery stories about Hyboria as a RPG. Most gamer don't give two shit about storygames and the attendant issues. They will pick up this game try to play it like any other RPG and will quickly grow to dislike it as it keep forcing them think out of game and feel like it filled with these anal-retentive restrictions that have little to do with being a character within Conan's world.

Quote from: AsenRG;941022First, the momentum of a charge isn't the momentum I'm speaking of. I'm speaking of getting advantage and using it to press your initiative. It applies to personal and group fights alike, and the system in Conan is far from the worst representation I've seen.

And yeah, it might. In fact, I'd argue that systems aiming for cause and effect should have it. What I wonder is why most don't have anything of the sort, though.

But again, isn't that a side-topic? There is a difference between some sort of cause that has a basis in reality, and one that is intentionally not reality-based. It sounds like Mordiphius doom/dark/momentum whatever is all pretty explicitly about OOC points and reasons why (or limits to how they can be used) sound entirely optional. In fact, it sounds like the point system overshadows the game situation, to the point that a millionaire PC may struggle to buy a baseball bat, and have to risk bankruptcy to buy a used car, unless someone gives him momentum by doing something completely irrelevant to the car shopping (such as attack a random target with an HMG). And I'm just asking what's the best word for that? "Realism-apathetic"? "OOC-point-driven"? "Story-point game"?

Quote from: Skarg;941045And I'm just asking what's the best word for that? "Realism-apathetic"? "OOC-point-driven"? "Story-point game"?

"Stupid."

Quote from: Skarg;941045But again, isn't that a side-topic? There is a difference between some sort of cause that has a basis in reality, and one that is intentionally not reality-based.

Actually...no, there isn't. If a system represents reality well, why would it matter what the author had in mind when writing the mechanics? The mechanics for throwing a punch are what they are. Doesn't matter if the author, when thinking about a punch, was imagining a haymaker, a chinpalm jab, or the ultra-secret fingerstrike attack Guan Gun Checks The Oil:p.

QuoteIt sounds like Mordiphius doom/dark/momentum whatever is all pretty explicitly about OOC points and reasons why (or limits to how they can be used) sound entirely optional.

Some of the ways to spend momentum are narrative, especially the ones on the GM's side. Some of them, not so much, especially those on the players' side.
That's all I can say before seeing my backer's copy and reviewing the options:D.

QuoteIn fact, it sounds like the point system overshadows the game situation, to the point that a millionaire PC may struggle to buy a baseball bat, and have to risk bankruptcy to buy a used car, unless someone gives him momentum by doing something completely irrelevant to the car shopping (such as attack a random target with an HMG).

Didn't seem that way from the quickstart, but I don't remember it all that well:).

QuoteAnd I'm just asking what's the best word for that? "Realism-apathetic"? "OOC-point-driven"? "Story-point game"?

"Metapoints economy". But I wasn't replying about the metapoints, but about the momentum part, which actually makes sense;).

Quote from: AsenRG;941065Actually...no, there isn't. If a system represents reality well, why would it matter what the author had in mind when writing the mechanics? The mechanics for throwing a punch are what they are. Doesn't matter if the author, when thinking about a punch, was imagining a haymaker, a chinpalm jab, or the ultra-secret fingerstrike attack Guan Gun Checks The Oil:p.

That just sounds naughty.

Quote from: Nexus;941066That just sounds naughty.

That's the reason it's a secret technique, man!

Quote from: Skarg;941045(...) it sounds like the point system overshadows the game situation (...)

Exactly my impression.

QuoteAnd I'm just asking what's the best word for that? "Realism-apathetic"? "OOC-point-driven"? "Story-point game"?

"overdesigned"?

Quote from: AsenRG;941065Actually...no, there isn't. If a system represents reality well, why would it matter what the author had in mind when writing the mechanics? The mechanics for throwing a punch are what they are. Doesn't matter if the author, when thinking about a punch, was imagining a haymaker, a chinpalm jab, or the ultra-secret fingerstrike attack Guan Gun Checks The Oil:p.

I haven't seen anything at all to indicate that Modiphius has any interest in representing reality well, so why are you ever writing about that hypothetical situation?

Quote"Metapoints economy". But I wasn't replying about the metapoints, but about the momentum part, which actually makes sense;).

Ok. I concede that you can think of or use such an idea as a way to represent some situation where there is some sort of momentum of success, which can be a real thing that isn't included in many other games. Say, instead of having detailed crunchy rules for things like morale, surprise, group coordination/confusion/panic/situational-awareness, or whatever.


But again, I was just seeing what a good term might be so I can refer to these designs as something other than just RPGs I want to avoid. The suggestion of "stupid" works for my own purposes and those of like-minded people, but I was hoping for a more neutral term to greatly reduce the frequency of rants and arguments.