TheRPGSite

Quote from: Kellri;918104I heartily agree. Once you get over the fact that neither Tekumel or Glorantha are as deep as they claim you can play those games and have some fun.  And both games could seriously do with a discussion forum that outright banned anyone from commenting who, for example, felt like they needed a forum nickname in Tsolyani.  A 'let's talk about EPT or RQ' thread instead of another 400 pages of let's ask Chirine ba Kal what he thinks.

If you read the Neverwhere graphic novel and are inspired to play that sort of game, Empire of the Petal Throne is a great setting (and not the worst rule system).
Neverwhere / DEN (http://bronzeageofblogs.blogspot.com/2009/06/neverwhere.html)

I think it is a great setting to use in the style of "John Cater of Mar's" or "Planet of the Apes".
With a more modern rule system like Savage Worlds, I think it works well for the traditional starting of a "barbarian newly arrived".

If you take just what is in the original printing of "Empire of the Petal Throne" and run with it twisted to fit your vision, what is wrong with that?
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There is no restriction on "forum nickname in Tsolyani" just on bringing up details that are not in EPT directly or implied.
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Bold move Greentongue. +1

I kind of like the idea of an EPT game that sticks entirely to the original 1975 edition or close to it. Maybe a couple added things like the big color hex maps but that's it. After that...throw another Nepalese temple ball in your pipe and go to town. You wanna have a Jakallan underworld megadungeon that more closely resembles the Anomalous Subsurface Environment or Metamorphosis Alpha, great. You want it all to look like a cross between a late-70's Boris Vallejo painting and a Moebius comic - knock yourself out.  Just please, for the love of Dlamelish, don't bore the living shit out of me with a bunch of obscure references to a Blue Room post about proper Tsolyanu pronouns or some tedious details about that time you spent 12 hours in MAR Barker's basement dicking about roleplaying a cloistered temple prostitute.

There's also no need to bore me in this new thread with barb after barb thrown at people posting in a different thread that you don't like. :D. You wanna talk about it, talk about IT.

So, the world of EPT seems to be a remnant of a far-flung star empire (something I didn't know until I started seeing pictures of Railtubes in the Other Thread), is this Empire ever specifically mentioned as starting from Earth (other than humans=earth)?

Quote from: Kellri;918386You wanna have a Jakallan underworld megadungeon that more closely resembles the Anomalous Subsurface Environment or Metamorphosis Alpha, great.

Now there's some ideas!
The Metamorphosis Alpha ship (Warden) has arrived and automated systems have awoken you and dumped you onto the planet.

Though I think Kellri was implying that just beneath the surface of Tekumel is the remains of a high tech world like the interior of Warden.

How well would the mutations of MA fit into Tekumel? One sure way to find out I suppose. ;)
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Quote from: CRKrueger;918387There's also no need to bore me in this new thread with barb after barb thrown at people posting in a different thread that you don't like.

Some people are just assholes who like to complain.

Is the tradition "Zero to Hero" start provided in the rules still popular enough these days?

How "Alien World" should the game start feel before players are turned off on the whole thing?
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Quote from: Greentongue;918388Though I think Kellri was implying that just beneath the surface of Tekumel is the remains of a high tech world like the interior of Warden.

Yeah, I like that idea... very Barrier Peaks-ish.

There's more than one alien race stranded on Tekumel? Yes? Or am I mixing it up with Jorune (which has remnants of a couple different alien invasions around).

Quote from: Simlasa;918452Yeah, I like that idea... very Barrier Peaks-ish.

There's more than one alien race stranded on Tekumel? Yes? Or am I mixing it up with Jorune (which has remnants of a couple different alien invasions around).

The EPT rules mentions 12. I'm sure others can be created as needed.
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The 1975 original game was way, way, waaaaaay fucking ahead of it's time and is a weirdo masterpiece of trippy outsider-art hash-head sword & planet psychedelic fantasy.

I'm told in Germany they call Barker "The Forgotten Tolkien". I disagree. He's better.

I would love to see the 1975 original translated into Savage Worlds.

I would play that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;918387So, the world of EPT seems to be a remnant of a far-flung star empire (something I didn't know until I started seeing pictures of Railtubes in the Other Thread), is this Empire ever specifically mentioned as starting from Earth (other than humans=earth)?

Mentioned? Hell, someone's spinned it into a game of its own (http://ixians.blogspot.com.br/2010/12/humanspace-empires.html).

I first read about it in the official timeline (http://www.tekumel.com/images/blueroom/contrib/tekhist.pdf) but I can't say for sure from which source(s) it has been compiled.

Quote from: Greentongue;918388How well would the mutations of MA fit into Tekumel? One sure way to find out I suppose. ;)

Ancient subterranean survivors (from any one of Tékumel's myriad cataclysms) mutated by exposure to faulty but still functional doomsday device of the Ancients. Of course, your clan/temple/secret society wants the damn thing.

Quote from: Spinachcat;918488I would love to see the 1975 original translated into Savage Worlds.

SW would probably do a serviceable job of the dungeon-crawling part. I'd prefer a D&D variant that deviates a bit more from OD&D than EPT did; I think Kevin Crawford's  (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4qCWY8UnLrcM3VVX2c2WlhVU3M/view) looks promising, but it's geared towards native PCs, rather than the EPT approach (which I favor) of PCs as barbarians fresh off the boat who raid the underworld and accumulate wealth with an eye towards buying clan adoption/citizenship and, further ahead, military/religious/political office (not unlike Flashing Blades' version of the D&D lordship endgame). Still, that would probably be an easy adaptation.

What really bugs me is that he's sent a proposal to the Tékumel Foundation but given the silence (it's been nearly a year since Kevin posted this beta over at Google+), I strongly suspect it's not going to happen. So instead of seeing one of my favorite OSR creators designing an OSR game for one of my favorite settings, we'll see... fucking [URL="http://drivethrurpg.com/product/138315/Bethorm-the-Plane-of-Tekumel-RPG]Béthorm[/URL] (gaze upon this fucking character sheet (http://bethorm.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/B%C3%A9thorm-Character-Sheet-v15.pdf) and despair).

Of course, if I had the time and inclination, I'd love to try my hand at a Mythras conversion. There's an old RQ3 conversion (http://www.tekumel.com/downloads/RQtekumel.pdf) (by none less than Sandy Petersen) that might serve as a starting point.

Quote from: Greentongue;918442How "Alien World" should the game start feel before players are turned off on the whole thing?

That's where I think you might want to start gradually and introduce the really outre parts of Tekumel as you go rather than try to get hung up on the specifics. Just roll up some characters and start playing. Immediately. No working out complex back-stories for the PCs, their clans or anything like that. You're a warrior, you're a priest of an angry fire god, you're a sentient giant ant, and you're all trying to rob a tomb and avoid the guards. Let's go. Later, as you go introduce more and more.

I've spent a lot of time in India, Cambodia, northwest China and other places that are often regarded as inspiring Tekumel in some way. And eventually, I at least tried to learn the languages and find out as much about local culture as possible. But, there's always a place for just getting stuck in and soaking it up with a sense of wonder. The first time I explored around the Temple of the Sun at Konarak I didn't need to know that it was built by Narasimhadeva or how and why the construction in the form of a giant stone chariot relates to the modern Jagganath cult or why there were so many sexual threesomes involving dwarves prominently displayed on the outside. All of that came after the first couple experiences of 'holy fuck this so weird, and I don't know why I like it so much'.

If you're going to play Tekumel, give your players that experience first.

Maybe I am wrong, but my impression of EPT involves PCs with lots of servitors in mass combat. Maybe that's just because most of the EPT I've seen has been minis based games. The RQ conversion by Sandy(!!) is very cool, but my thought was SW because of the Hero vs. Minion ease in big mosh combats with Mayan/Aztec terrain bits.

Quote from: Spinachcat;918496Maybe I am wrong, but my impression of EPT involves PCs with lots of servitors in mass combat. Maybe that's just because most of the EPT I've seen has been minis based games. The RQ conversion by Sandy(!!) is very cool, but my thought was SW because of the Hero vs. Minion ease in big mosh combats with Mayan/Aztec terrain bits.

Yeah, I can see the reasoning for a more combat-heavy game where PCs make use of hirelings.

Quote from: Spinachcat;918488I would love to see the 1975 original translated into Savage Worlds.

I would play that.

For what it is worth, I started a "conversion" (http://home.earthlink.net/~djackson24/Delbert6a.htm) a long time ago but as you can imagine, EPT isn't in huge demand so I petered out. Now the site is many providers ago and I can't update it.
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Is the mixture of "Science!" and "Magic" a killer for the setting?
I know that there are many people that get upset with the introduction of gunpowder in their D&D games.
Do you think that this mix is toxic to many people?

Is Sword & Planet a forgotten or too difficult genre?
Difficult as in, there too few mass media examples that everyone knows as a shared foundation.
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Quote from: Greentongue;918615Is the mixture of "Science!" and "Magic" a killer for the setting?
I know that there are many people that get upset with the introduction of gunpowder in their D&D games.
Do you think that this mix is toxic to many people?

Is Sword & Planet a forgotten or too difficult genre?
Difficult as in, there too few mass media examples that everyone knows as a shared foundation.
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Like Metamorphosis Alpha (Another cult science-fantasy RPG from the very early days of the hobby) it's just a weird game that has never really been "Mainstream" or a hit in any of it's many incarnations, and changing it to make it more standard (If that's even possible) would kill everything that makes it special.

That said, it's not as intimidating or dense or unplayable as many believe. At it's 1975 core is just a dungeon-crawl fantasy game, albeit a very deadly one with a very strange and complex setting.

Quote from: The Butcher;918493Mentioned? Hell, someone's spinned it into a game of its own (http://ixians.blogspot.com.br/2010/12/humanspace-empires.html).

For your information, Daniel H. Boggs, the man behind the "Hidden in Shadows" blog, has given Drune's Humanspace Empires a big coat of polish and made his work available here, for free, as the "Southerwood Revision (https://boggswood.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/new-humanspace-empires-free-pulp-sci-fi.html)". There's a new character sheet and about 50 (!) more pages of material (rules and GM advice/notes). Excellent, excellent stuff.

One could easily use these rules and have Humanspace adventurers travel forward in time to the Second Imperium of Tsolyanu and lead adventuresome lives there.

Quote from: The Butcher;918493Béthorm (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/138315/Bethorm-the-Plane-of-Tekumel-RPG) (gaze upon this fucking character sheet (http://bethorm.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/B%C3%A9thorm-Character-Sheet-v15.pdf) and despair).

Yes, Bethorm's character sheet is ugly and very unwelcoming. Moreover, the character creation process itself is a bit convoluted. For instance, you have to go back and forth a little to deal with the impact of advantages and disadvantages on your character's attributes and skills, etc. (in this regard, I recommend getting your hands on the Excel sheet Jeff Dee has made available on RPGNow: not only does the sheet help you track all those little modifier points, but it also contains re-generated characters, which help a lot).
But, the system offers several advantages, big and small, with one being that it gives your characters something like the premise of a backstory right off the bat: why does s/he have this "magical" pendant that gives him/her more strength/intelligence, etc,? You have a slave or pet: where did your character get it/him/her? Who is that slave anyway, a slave-born or someone who was sold into it? etc. Very useful at sparking one's imagination.

More importantly, once the characters are created, once you start running your game, well, the system sort of disappears and your game becomes semi-narrativist, with some light-on-its-feet yet reliable simulation here and there to keep things grounded without ever stopping or slowing the game's flow down. As a result, mood and pace keep going.
My players, who are very experienced, were impressed and positively surprised by the system's speed and flexibility. Everything is smooth and quick: the combats are very fast and the general attribute and skill throws are super fast as well ... and all of this with only one or two 1D10 dice (including rolls for weapon damages).
(Note: the initiative rules need a bit of adjusting when two large groups fight each other, but there's a good workaround available on the Bethorm site).

In other words, I would totally recommend it.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;918480The 1975 original game was way, way, waaaaaay fucking ahead of it's time and is a weirdo masterpiece of trippy outsider-art hash-head sword & planet psychedelic fantasy.

I'm told in Germany they call Barker "The Forgotten Tolkien". I disagree. He's better.

We do?

Never heard of that. But the novel (https://www.amazon.de/ungew%C3%B6hnliche-Goldmann-Abenteuer-Tekumel-Fantasy/dp/3442238900) was published in 1988. I remember that it didn't catch my fancy when I saw it in book stores back then. Bought other stuff instead (McKillip, Vance, Le Guin, Wolfe...).

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51TKKo9yRDL._SX312_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

And while EPT was the inspiration for the first German RPG (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?6368-Has-Anyone-Played-quot-The-Dark-Eye-quot&p=599726&highlight=tekumel#post599726), Magira/Midgard, the first thing the author/translator did was strip the Tekumel references from the rules and convert the system to a more down-to-earth, almost Hârn-like, game.

But some of the exoticism remained in the game. Among the first setting books that were published for both Midgard (and much later the spin-off game Abenteuer in Magira), was fantasy India (called Rawindra and Ranabar, respectively). Which made Midgard a hard sell - fans craved for trad regions like Clanthon, Erainn, Alba that were referenced in the rules all the time.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;918777We do?

Well, Der Spiegel does. (http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/spielzeug/tekumel-schoepfer-m-a-r-barker-der-vergessene-tolkien-a-649336.html)

Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;918774For your information, Daniel H. Boggs, the man behind the "Hidden in Shaddows" blog, has given Drune's Humanspace Empires a big coat of polish and made his work available here, for free, as the "Southerwood Revision (https://boggswood.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/new-humanspace-empires-free-pulp-sci-fi.html)".

Thanks very much for sharing this!

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;918668Like Metamorphosis Alpha (Another cult science-fantasy RPG from the very early days of the hobby) it's just a weird game that has never really been "Mainstream" or a hit in any of it's many incarnations, and changing it to make it more standard (If that's even possible) would kill everything that makes it special.

That said, it's not as intimidating or dense or unplayable as many believe. At it's 1975 core is just a dungeon-crawl fantasy game, albeit a very deadly one with a very strange and complex setting.

Not so much "changing it to make it more standard" as not emphasizing ALL the non-stand initially.
People that have experience with D&D should be familiar with levels and class/caste. So making those matter shouldn't be too strange.
A lot of the names of things are flowery so you con't need to use the foreign language aspect to make them feel "alien".
Blue swede instead of rime-stone shoes. ;)

What is wrong with a setting that feels more "standard" but you don't have everything in it memorized? (Down to which page it's on.)
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It sounds like a familiar challenge for settings that have strong pushback. When society and its politics can and will banhammer a fool from upsetting the status quo, you get into the challenge of how much lore can a player absorb so they don't flail suicidally as wholly out-of-character. This is the same challenge you see in White Wolf Vampire politics or L5R Rokugani politics, etc.; players wanna go forth and be awesome, but in their impatience to play they forget to modulate their behavior to make setting sense.

To me, that's more a GM handling expectations problem. One of the easiest work arounds are archetypal "outsiders" to the status quo, like barbarians, military leaders, soldiers of fortune, fringe black market traders (tomb raiding goes here), and so on. And the reason for this is because those 'borderland' society members are a little out there from the everyday and excused certain off color moments.

But eventually you are going to have that "immersive break" GM-to-Player conversation, where you pause & explain that a PC's IC knowledge would know that N action would be unseemly. And it's perfectly OK. Because you are not telling the player how to play, you are giving a warning moment to clarify the known consequences. The player can always choose to persist... but first you gotta make sure they are choosing in full conscience.

This is like the safety net for complex setting pushback. Without it, you end up feeling a need to frontload so much setting so as players don't crater a chunk of the table as they crash & burn. To avoid the frontload, and likely forgotten, setting knowledge, safety net it as necessary. That way it avoids any pretense to "gotcha!" GMing. You want your players to make an informed choice regardless if their own knowledges and skills are not up to PC par.

With that shift in GM tactics that should open much more of the setting to immediate play.

Quote from: Opaopajr;918871To me, that's more a GM handling expectations problem. One of the easiest work arounds are archetypal "outsiders" to the status quo, like barbarians, military leaders, soldiers of fortune, fringe black market traders (tomb raiding goes here), and so on. And the reason for this is because those 'borderland' society members are a little out there from the everyday and excused certain off color moments.

It sounds to me like you are saying that, if people that have played or people that have run these kind of adventures, made them public, it would help ease people into playing in EPT?

Are there published work like these you could recommend?

How about non-EPT adventures that would work fine if re-skinned?
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Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;918778Well, Der Spiegel does. (http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/spielzeug/tekumel-schoepfer-m-a-r-barker-der-vergessene-tolkien-a-649336.html)

There was a book, "Drachenväter", by the authors of that article, that gave Barker some extended attention, IIRC; sort of a very light version of "Playing at the World", though not entirely without merit. Like, it had some cool photos, for example. - No irony, here. Just more of a coffee table book, really, than a well-researched history of RPGs.

Quote from: Greentongue;918893It sounds to me like you are saying that, if people that have played or people that have run these kind of adventures, made them public, it would help ease people into playing in EPT?

Are there published work like these you could recommend?

How about non-EPT adventures that would work fine if re-skinned?
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No. Not that at all.

Outsider roles are a common work around to complex settings, but the point is not in the example of such play. The point is in the setting forgiveness of the player character's faux pas due to the nature of the player character's societal role. It's a setting cushion from severe setting consequences.

There is a reason Kellri, TheRPGPundit, Grognan, and many others prefer a "you're a foreigner, shut up and play already, you'll get the hang of it." They believe the content is likely overly baroque and learning by experience would be a better teacher. In that, no example of play would really help -- only jumping in and playing can help.

As for non-EPT adventures to re-skin, there's likely plenty that deal with cultural outsiders and their dealings. From dungeon crawls to mercenary quests, the content to choose from is huge. But I don't think that's gonna save people from the main problem.

I think it's a great introduction, maybe even a great way to bring players up to speed, but I don't think it address the core issue: communicating IC PC cautionary knowledge OOC to the player.

Some tables don't want to do this at all. For them, drop 'n go outsiders (a.k.a. those with partial immunity) is the way to go. But I feel eventually you'll have to address this IC/OOC divide because it cannot be a solid firewall. I feel quality PC decision making means being informed of what my PC knows as a native, and recognizing it is often greater than what I as a player would normally understand (or remember).

Quote from: Opaopajr;918901No. Not that at all.

Outsider roles are a common work around to complex settings, but the point is not in the example of such play. The point is in the setting forgiveness of the player character's faux pas due to the nature of the player character's societal role. It's a setting cushion from severe setting consequences.

There is a reason Kellri, TheRPGPundit, Grognan, and many others prefer a "you're a foreigner, shut up and play already, you'll get the hang of it." They believe the content is likely overly baroque and learning by experience would be a better teacher. In that, no example of play would really help -- only jumping in and playing can help.

As for non-EPT adventures to re-skin, there's likely plenty that deal with cultural outsiders and their dealings. From dungeon crawls to mercenary quests, the content to choose from is huge. But I don't think that's gonna save people from the main problem.

I think it's a great introduction, maybe even a great way to bring players up to speed, but I don't think it address the core issue: communicating IC PC cautionary knowledge OOC to the player.

Some tables don't want to do this at all. For them, drop 'n go outsiders (a.k.a. those with partial immunity) is the way to go. But I feel eventually you'll have to address this IC/OOC divide because it cannot be a solid firewall. I feel quality PC decision making means being informed of what my PC knows as a native, and recognizing it is often greater than what I as a player would normally understand (or remember).

I agree with your assertion wholeheartedly. Your points about the IC/OOC interaction are bang on. I am not an advocate of the foreigner in Tsolyanu concept. Although I prefer to set my games outside of the Imperium I still have players play locals. I tried the foreigner off the boat 30 years ago and it just didn't work out as well as native born characters. There is absolutely no reason why someone new to the Tekumel milieu cannot successfully play a Tsolyani, or Yan Koryani, or whatever "yani". As I just said over in the "Chirine thread"  I had a player new to Tekumel join my group last week and he was easily able to "figure out" how it worked.

Shemek

Also, once you address this issue to your own, GM, and table players' satisfaction, you open up a lot more setting for potential play.

Just like D&D had splats to "Play as the Monsters!" or "Demi-humans are Teh Shit! Here's their Kingdoms," one could do the same with the more alien of Tekumel races. Albeit, these beings are considerably more alien than your standard "short homely human," "short gruff human," and "lithe pretentious human." But you'd think there's some novelty to that given how many people scramble in other games for the bleeding edge of races, a la 1/2 genie, 1/2 demon, 1/2 fae, 1/2 whatever the fuck.

Sure, it's going to have players lean heavily on what those alien races do. But doesn't that mean there's still plenty of creative space for GMs to make Tekumel theirs? It's an opportunity...

Quote from: Opaopajr;918901But I don't think that's gonna save people from the main problem.

I must be dense because I don't see the "problem" that you are talking about.
From the EPT rules there is no complex detailed social construct.

QuoteThe government of the Empire can be characterized as a form of authoritarian bureaucracy, always under the vigilant eyes of the Omnipotent Azure Legion.

QuoteThe society is divided into three types of clans: plebeian, skilled, and noble. Clan rules govern all social life: marriage, birth, death, trade, manners, etc.,etc. Each city's clan chiefs gather to select representations to their councils in the Palace of the Realm, where all domestic imperial business is conducted.

QuoteThese ,roads contain stepped pathways: the highest is for Imperial officials, nobles, and messengers; the next highest is for troops; the third and lowest is for caravans of goods, traders, and ordinary folk. Here again is an example of the Tsolyani love of formal distinctions between classes.

Quoteleaders generally fight "prestige duels" before an actual battle, and often the losing side simply retreats, rather than fight on . with lowered morale.

You could easily use "The Water Margin Outlaws of the Marsh" (http://uploads.worldlibrary.net/uploads/pdf/20130423230739the_outlaws_of_the_marsh_pdf.pdf) is a guide to play without much problem.

Now I agree that since the initial release, the complex social construct has been detailed but, I don't think that invalidates playing the original EPT as written with a completely different spin.
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Quote from: Greentongue;918908I must be dense because I don't see the "problem" that you are talking about.
From the EPT rules there is no complex detailed social construct. [...]

Now I agree that since the initial release, the complex social construct has been detailed but, I don't think that invalidates playing the original EPT as written with a completely different spin.
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You're one of the few I know who has a 1975 edition. I'd have no possibility to compare, way outta my league. The speculative prices of Tekumel are pretty crazy, which brings us back to that "What RPG Product Will You Pay $200+ For."

A lot of Tekumel used product is pretty expensive, and that itself might be an exposure problem. The core seems like it needs an OSR reboot to democratize the content or system or whatever makes EPT special. I've seen a few small publisher takes on it -- but where the fuck to start? There's not even an easily found Wikia. I can imagine it a problem for many newly interested.

Quote from: Opaopajr;918921You're one of the few I know who has a 1975 edition. I'd have no possibility to compare, way outta my league. The speculative prices of Tekumel are pretty crazy, which brings us back to that "What RPG Product Will You Pay $200+ For."

A lot of Tekumel used product is pretty expensive, and that itself might be an exposure problem. The core seems like it needs an OSR reboot to democratize the content or system or whatever makes EPT special. I've seen a few small publisher takes on it -- but where the fuck to start? There's not even an easily found Wikia. I can imagine it a problem for many newly interested.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2060/Empire-of-the-Petal-Throne?it=1

I did a search on "Empire of the Petal Throne pdf". First hit.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;918950http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2060/Empire-of-the-Petal-Throne?it=1

I did a search on "Empire of the Petal Throne pdf". First hit.

Oh, thank god. That's far more reasonable. (Hmm, Maps for EPT and Jakalla are separate purchases, for $8 and $4 respectively... :mad: ) Well, at least all together it's a tenth of the going used price. :cool:

Quote from: Opaopajr;918958Oh, thank god. That's far more reasonable. (Hmm, Maps for EPT and Jakalla are separate purchases, for $8 and $4 respectively... :mad: ) Well, at least all together it's a tenth of the going used price. :cool:

Depending on how detailed you need, there are digital copies available (http://www.tekumel.com/world_lands.html) to ballpark things with.
Again, if you fill in the details as needed for your own game, I think there is enough to play with.

There is a copy of Jakalla (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Omentide/media/Games/Empire-Map-1.jpg.html) even.
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Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;918777We do?

Never heard of that. But the novel (https://www.amazon.de/ungew%C3%B6hnliche-Goldmann-Abenteuer-Tekumel-Fantasy/dp/3442238900) was published in 1988. I remember that it didn't catch my fancy when I saw it in book stores back then. Bought other stuff instead (McKillip, Vance, Le Guin, Wolfe...).

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51TKKo9yRDL._SX312_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

And while EPT was the inspiration for the first German RPG (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?6368-Has-Anyone-Played-quot-The-Dark-Eye-quot&p=599726&highlight=tekumel#post599726), Magira/Midgard, the first thing the author/translator did was strip the Tekumel references from the rules and convert the system to a more down-to-earth, almost Hârn-like, game.

But some of the exoticism remained in the game. Among the first setting books that were published for both Midgard (and much later the spin-off game Abenteuer in Magira), was fantasy India (called Rawindra and Ranabar, respectively). Which made Midgard a hard sell - fans craved for trad regions like Clanthon, Erainn, Alba that were referenced in the rules all the time.

Thanks guys!!! I've just been using google translate to read the German material I can find online. Now I have even more material to use for "mash-ups"!!! When I need it...

This is just a little reflection of what goes on in the real world on many levels. Some will love it. Others will loathe it. Others lurk...Some have the means to pay crazy prices for old books. Others do not. No different with non-niche hobbies or passtimes. What is it that Gronan says...!!!

H:0)

Quote from: Opaopajr;918921You're one of the few I know who has a 1975 edition. I'd have no possibility to compare, way outta my league. The speculative prices of Tekumel are pretty crazy, which brings us back to that "What RPG Product Will You Pay $200+ For."

Dont have the books handy at the moment but Adventures in Tekumel touches on the society too. Though the lifepath chargen has the PC as a noble of some sort.

Quote from: Omega;919053Dont have the books handy at the moment but Adventures in Tekumel touches on the society too. Though the lifepath chargen has the PC as a noble of some sort.

Yes, the divergence from "your world" to "The Professor's World" started with later releases.
That is the way of Canon formation. Someone publishes a few more details and they become the foundation of Holy Writ.

My point in this thread is that the concept was enough when it was released for people to pay a premium for it.
In my opinion the addition of "The Professor's" version does not invalidate its value as a starting point for people that want to treat it as the seed for "Neverwhere".
Heck, it would be fine for a "Conan in the East" style game. So what that it is not "what makes Tekumel special" in some people's minds?

I just don't understand the thinking that since there is an "OFFICIAL" version, that is all that can be done with it.

Maybe there is concern that the Copyright Police will swoop in or that the people that hated on Janny Wurts and Raymond E. Feist for their "Daughter of the Empire" series will hunt down anyone "corrupting" the setting with their own vision?
=

Quote from: Greentongue;919068I just don't understand the thinking that since there is an "OFFICIAL" version, that is all that can be done with it.

Maybe there is concern that the Copyright Police will swoop in or that the people that hated on Janny Wurts and Raymond E. Feist for their "Daughter of the Empire" series will hunt down anyone "corrupting" the setting with their own vision?
=

Right. Though to be fair. Adventures touches on various lifestyles. Magical study, military study, merchanteering/trade, even exploration, parenthood, and hardships galore. So it at least paints a broad range of possible activities.

Having missed out on all the other editions its interesting to see how the setting evolved over time.

Yes, it certainly has become unique over time.
Quite interesting but also intimidating to many.

In my opinion, later updates make it much more of a challenge to play a "Juan Karter of Tekumel" style game.
=

NON-INTIMIDATING TEKUMEL

or

ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW TO PLAY 1975 EotPT IN ONE BRIEF HAND-OUT:

You live on Tekumel, a steamy-hot jungle world with two moons, no white people, no horses, very little metal, and no stars in the sky. Humans are the main sentient race but there are many others, all very alien. There are "Monsters" in the wilderness and The Underworld (The planet-wide linked web of "Dungeons"- the whole crust is a mega-dungeon, basically) and they are the stuff of H.R. Geiger's worst bad acid trip. Your characters don't know it (And pretty have no chance of ever knowing it) but Tekumel is a lost colony of a human star-faring empire 100,000+ years in our future. There are no more Caucasians because the Americas (Except rural Guatemala), Europe, and all of Asia except rural Sri Lanka and the Yemeni deep desert got wiped in a nuclear war long before recorded history.

You are barbarians from some obscure podunk nation. Probably buck naked, maybe in a grass skirt. Your shitty boat has just washed up on the shores of Tsolyanu, "The Empire of the Petal Throne". It's a very, very old, regimented, bigoted, densely populated, socially complex, and massive authoritarian empire that's sorta like a cross between the Aztecs and Ancient China. Sorta. Kinda. If you squint hard. Tsolyanu is where the action is. Everything in the EotPT revolves around clans... you underworld-crawl so that you can buy, weasel, or marry yourself into a clan. You are a murder-hobo, but you're a wannabe-bourgeoisie murder-hobo and there is sort of a point to it. Like Feudal Japan, "Face" and showing proper respect is really important. All crimes have only one punishment in the Empire: Being publicly impaled on a sharp pole stuck up your ass. However, only the worst cases actually reach Imperial justice, usually things get settled clan-to-clan with blood money, gifts, concessions, poisonings, etc.

Slavery, nudity, human sacrifice and drugs are all the culturally accepted day-to-day norm (Except for the weird heroin-analog drug that's sold by the scorpion-men pirates that have stone boats and rape you with their tails). Tsolyani culture is crazy-ass "Callous" by the standards of Modern Western morality. There are "Gods" (Awesome Lovecraftian alien energy beings), and their temples have a near-monopoly on magic. The gods fall into two factions: The Gods of Stability and The Gods of Change. You might think that they would hate each other but they seem to have more-or-less reached an understanding and can't fight each other openly. Your weapons and armor are made out of alchemically-treated dinosaur hide about as hard as bronze and can be in whatever outlandish color or shapes that you can afford (i.e. spiky zig-zag hook swords that make Klingon melee weapons look sensible).

OK, anything I forgot? Anything you would have worded differently?

Quote from: Greentongue;919119Yes, it certainly has become unique over time.
Quite interesting but also intimidating to many.

In my opinion, later updates make it much more of a challenge to play a "Juan Karter of Tekumel" style game.
=

Adventures was pretty accessible. It walks you all the way through chargen and then opens up those FF style adventures which also helps show the player some insights into the lands, cultures and some of the beings.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;919155OK, anything I forgot? Anything you would have worded differently?

hmm. Add that Tekumel was once a heavily terraformed resort world visited by humans and aliens. The original inhabitants are still pissed off at the terraforming and being ousted from their lands. Theres lost tech from all the ruins of the spacefaring age out there waiting to be re-discovered.

Adventures swaps out the barbarians for low to high level nobles more versed in the culture. More options than pure combat seems to be up for grabs.

Your characters don't know it (And pretty have no chance of ever knowing it) but Tekumel is a lost colony of a human star-faring empire 100,000+ years in our future.
... which is why there are lost Techno-magic items scattered everywhere.

you underworld-crawl so that you can buy, weasel, or marry yourself into a clan.
you do the odd jobs that no respectable person would do like underworld-crawl so that you can buy, weasel, or marry yourself into a clan and become respectable.;
The more flamboyant your actions, the more likely a clan will be attracted to you, or have you dealt with.

The gods fall into two factions: The Gods of Stability and The Gods of Change.
The gods fall into two factions: The Gods of Good and The Gods of Evil. "Good" is from a Modern Western morality as they promote Stability while the "Evil" ones promote Anarchy. Both sets barely care about their worshipers and rarely answer prayers. There are other individual Lovecraftian alien energy beings but they and their followers are suppressed.

*** Sticking to just the EPT rule set.

QuoteEverything in the EotPT revolves around clans... you underworld-crawl so that you can buy, weasel, or marry yourself into a clan. You are a murder-hobo, but you're a wannabe-bourgeoisie murder-hobo and there is sort of a point to it.

This little bit reminds me of Skyrealms of Jorune, which ultimate goal was for you to gain citizenship, if I remember correctly. It's nice to have a purpose beyond loot.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;919285This little bit reminds me of Skyrealms of Jorune, which ultimate goal was for you to gain citizenship, if I remember correctly.

Jorune, in its general overview, is pretty much an alternate attempt at doing Tekumel.

Quote from: Simlasa;919314Jorune, in its general overview, is pretty much an alternate attempt at doing Tekumel.

It seems like if it was such a good idea that other people published their versions of it, then there should be more interest in it.

I guess the question is, how do you strip off the accumulation of years of canon and start with the base setting?
Can you even strip it off or is anyone interested in the setting going to want/expect all the canon?

Would/do people refuse games without the added detail from "The Professor's" personal game?
=

Tekumel needs only one thing to flourish: whoever is pulling the strings on it greenlighting Kevin Crawford's take on the setting.
Unfortunately it looks like there was no agreement, so it's a moot point.

As for the obscure canon, personally I wouldn't care less about my campaign being "faithful" to Barker's original one. Hell it's pretty much guaranteed mine would diverge from the very first session. Just give me the general outlook and the tools to further develop the setting, I'll do the job from there tailoring it to my table; don't need someone else to teach me how to play, thank you very much.

Quote from: Greentongue;919342It seems like if it was such a good idea that other people published their versions of it, then there should be more interest in it.

The thing that appeals to me about both of them, Tekumel and Jorune, is that they are sword & planet/planetary romance settings... there is a weird scifi element stirred into the macho fantasy soup. They push my Barsoom button.
But sword & planet seems to be harder sell these days. People freak out if there are even black powder weapons in their quasi-Tolkien fantasy games.

Yes, people that like Barsoom should feel more at home with Tekumel. What there are of them.

Quote from: Simlasa;919354People freak out if there are even black powder weapons in their quasi-Tolkien fantasy games.

There is so little Sci-Fi and so much Sci-Fantasy on the market maybe the aversion to real science runs deep?

Even SCIENCE! doesn't doesn't get much attention except that many think it is actual science.

Still, one of the big draws for me is that the setting is a mashup.
=

What in the original printing would prevent someone from treating the setting like "Juan Karter of Tekumel"?
I'm guessing that having everyone be darker skinned would have to be addressed.
Having two moons may or may not be an issue.
=

Quote from: Greentongue;919518I'm guessing that having everyone be darker skinned would have to be addressed.

Just go the Robert E. Howard route (I'm thinking his El Borak stories here, not Conan). After even the briefest exposure to the local climate, our hero will be physically indistinguishable from a native. After a slightly longer time in-country, such a man would by virtue of his superior osmosis skills be speaking even the most obscure tribal tongue well enough to fool even a native.

See, I'd play that. I could go for treading the jewelled crowns of Tekumel beneath my sandalled feet.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;919692See, I'd play that. I could go for treading the jewelled crowns of Tekumel beneath my sandalled feet.

Tekumel can be deadly for one "Foreign Scum" and it is hard to find a couple of people with the same vision for that style of game.

I've been running a Play by Post for a year and it is not easy to keep things interesting and adventurous while not overwhelming the characters.
=

Quote from: Greentongue;919342Would/do people refuse games without the added detail from "The Professor's" personal game?
=

I would not even know the difference.

Quote from: yosemitemike;919770I would not even know the difference.

That may hold true for you, and that's good but, when soliciting for a game, if you mention "Tekumel" or "Empire of the Petal Throne" the people that show interest are ones that have set expectations.

When I was looking for players, I didn't mention Tekumel or EPT, just said you start as barbarians off the coast of a city like ancient Bombay.
=

Quote from: Greentongue;919856When I was looking for players, I didn't mention Tekumel or EPT, just said you start as barbarians off the coast of a city like ancient Bombay.

Good idea. I've had the misfortune to play some EPT at conventions (as a player) and it did not go well. On one occasion, the GM, who was pretty well-known in Tekumel circles as something of a hard-core scholar of the thing, spent 4 FUCKING HOURS on character creation and then stopped. We were all then directed to bring our characters to the next regional convention whereupon we would commence play. Oh, and he spent way too much time staring directly at my girlfriend's tits. Needless to say, at the next convention we were at an adjacent table playing the shit out of some WFB and that guy came over and practically demanded we debark to his table since he'd gone to the trouble to make us all calligraphic nametags in Tsolyani.  

Pretty obviously the things that turn me on about that setting are not at all what turns on the EPT superfans. In that respect, I'm more of an 'EPT is just alright with me' kind of guy rather than a 'MAR Barker is my personal Lord and Savior. Can I get a witness?' type.

So, yeah. If you're going to play EPT, don't mention EPT. You'll enjoy both the freedom of not having to hew to established EPT canon and you won't unwittingly attract the EPT superfan to your table.

Quote from: Greentongue;919856That may hold true for you, and that's good but, when soliciting for a game, if you mention "Tekumel" or "Empire of the Petal Throne" the people that show interest are ones that have set expectations.

I guess if you recruit online for online play, you will get a group that is heavily skewed toward the small group of people who are really into EPT.  My players would not even know what it was if I proposed it.  I suspect that would be true of most GMs recruiting players from their local player pool.

Quote from: Kellri;919924at the next convention we were at an adjacent table playing the shit out of some WFB and that guy came over and practically demanded we debark to his table since he'd gone to the trouble to make us all calligraphic nametags in Tsolyani.  

That's awesome. He obviously had a lot of friends and was really pressed for time in his private life.

Quote from: Kellri;919924Good idea. I've had the misfortune to play some EPT at conventions (as a player) and it did not go well. On one occasion, the GM, who was pretty well-known in Tekumel circles as something of a hard-core scholar of the thing, spent 4 FUCKING HOURS on character creation and then stopped. We were all then directed to bring our characters to the next regional convention whereupon we would commence play. Oh, and he spent way too much time staring directly at my girlfriend's tits. Needless to say, at the next convention we were at an adjacent table playing the shit out of some WFB and that guy came over and practically demanded we debark to his table since he'd gone to the trouble to make us all calligraphic nametags in Tsolyani.  

Pretty obviously the things that turn me on about that setting are not at all what turns on the EPT superfans. In that respect, I'm more of an 'EPT is just alright with me' kind of guy rather than a 'MAR Barker is my personal Lord and Savior. Can I get a witness?' type.

So, yeah. If you're going to play EPT, don't mention EPT. You'll enjoy both the freedom of not having to hew to established EPT canon and you won't unwittingly attract the EPT superfan to your table.

Merde. (Can I say that on this forum?) :eek:

The guy you describe is the kind of fan that drove Phil stark raving crazy; people who obsess on the tiny and obscure details and completely lose sight of the idea of having adventures. We used to get people like this at conventions who would correct Phil on his pronunciation; Phil stopped going to conventions because of this and then stopped letting people visit him at home because they'd do it to him (and worse) in his own house. He'd answer questions, but only at arm's length.

The kind of things that turn me on about the setting are the same things that turn you on - and I have the same issues with the superfans, too. As in the Dave Arneson quote, "we made stuff up and we had fun"; the EPT / Tekumel you describe is not what we had in Phil's basement, despite what some people might believe. I don't allow them in my house either, anymore, after some very disquieting incidents. (It's cut down on theft, breakage, and legal bills, for example.)

If it's any consolation to you, the superfans don't like my book about our adventures for pretty much the same things that you have mentioned. I just tell the stories about our adventures, and don't have a pronunciation guide or concordance anywhere in sight. (Gronan and I were Leiber's heroes in funny hats, as it were.) Phil's games always tended to disappoint the superfans - not enough concentration on details, he was often told, and too 'gamey' and 'story-telling'. I think you would have liked gaming with Phil; from what you've said, you and he had many of the same opinions about RPGs.

Well to its credit there IS something about EPT/Tekumel that draws some folk in to want to know more about this world, the language and all that since the elements were being laid out and sure enough its going to attract people who get into languages and script. Pretty much everyone I met who knew of or played it raved about the rich alien setting, language and script.

Unfortunately you get the weirdos with the fans. But what else is now. Every franchise has those.

Quote from: Omega;920148Unfortunately you get the weirdos with the fans. But what else is now. Every franchise has those.

Not to the same degree.

Everything I've ever read about Barker makes him sound like a really cool and fascinating dude.

Quote from: yosemitemike;920158Not to the same degree.

Star Trek Klingons

I've only recently taken the plunge as a "Tekumel GM", with naive players too. Some had vaguely heard of the world. Some not at all. As a result no one was there to tell me or them that we were "doing it wrong". And we had a lot of fun the handful of times we played.

The adventures are not ground-breaking in any way shape or form: go seek/sell/steal this thing, kill/rescue/find that person, etc. But because they take place on Tekumel, and because I work hard at visualizing the world before any session (the crowds, the alien bits of vegetation, the awe inspiring ruins, the utterly incomprehensible traps, the Alien-like deadly creatures, etc), the games take on a unique feel, a mix of wonder, weirdness, and potentially immense danger, with bits of Tsolyany social mores for the laughs and the awkward moments. And it works. The players and I really enjoy it and want more.

We're not weirdos either. We have loads of experience when it comes to RPGs (we're in our late 30s, early 40s), yet playing a handful of adventures turned us on for more. It does require us a bit more work though. A desire to try something new perhaps. A desire to not game in a Manichean world. A desire to take a chance really. A willingness to think outside the box too ... which does my head in from time to time. But it's worth it, as it makes my enjoyment of the hobby fresh again.

Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;920240I've only recently taken the plunge as a "Tekumel GM", with naive players too. Some had vaguely heard of the world. Some not at all. As a result no one was there to tell me or them that we were "doing it wrong". And we had a lot of fun the handful of times we played.

The adventures are not ground-breaking in any way shape or form: go seek/sell/steal this thing, kill/rescue/find that person, etc. But because they take place on Tekumel, and because I work hard at visualizing the world before any session (the crowds, the alien bits of vegetation, the awe inspiring ruins, the utterly incomprehensible traps, the Alien-like deadly creatures, etc), the games take on a unique feel, a mix of wonder, weirdness, and potentially immense danger, with bits of Tsolyany social mores for the laughs and the awkward moments. And it works. The players and I really enjoy it and want more.

We're not weirdos either. We have loads of experience when it comes to RPGs (we're in our late 30s, early 40s), yet playing a handful of adventures turned us on for more. It does require us a bit more work though. A desire to try something new perhaps. A desire to not game in a Manichean world. A desire to take a chance really. A willingness to think outside the box too ... which does my head in from time to time. But it's worth it, as it makes my enjoyment of the hobby fresh again.

This exactly how it was for me and my group when we started adventuring on Tekumel 30+ years ago. The novelty was a welcome break from the dwarves, elves, orcs and dragons which dominated the world of RPGs. I had the Blue Sourcebook, and the EPT rules from Different Worlds and that was it. We really weren't worried if we were playing it "correctly" because we didn't know anyone else who was playing on Tekumel. We didn't care at the time and still don't. The only thing I've tried to maintain from the so called canon was to keep everything related to the general background story as it was presented in the rules, Sourcebook, and novels (no orcs running around in Tsolyanu, Hirkane is emperor, and no Yan Koryani occupation of Tsolyanu). To be honest this about as close to "official Tekumel" as I care to go. This is why very early on the game was moved to Pechano which had very little "official" background published thus providing a lot more flexibility to me as a DM when it came to creating a module or adventure arc for the party.  My two cents worth on what you wrote.

Shemek.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;920176Everything I've ever read about Barker makes him sound like a really cool and fascinating dude.

He was. He could drive us crazy at times, but he was a lot of fun most of the time. I learned a lot about history and other cultures, and all in all I think the time I've spent with him and his creation was worth it.

Quote from: Omega;920185Star Trek Klingons

That's not the same flavor of weirdo at all.  An analogous group would be the canon fanatics showing up to a Trek RPG.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;919155NON-INTIMIDATING TEKUMEL

or

ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW TO PLAY 1975 EotPT IN ONE BRIEF HAND-OUT:

You live on Tekumel, a steamy-hot jungle world with two moons, no white people, no horses, very little metal, and no stars in the sky. Humans are the main sentient race but there are many others, all very alien. There are "Monsters" in the wilderness and The Underworld (The planet-wide linked web of "Dungeons"- the whole crust is a mega-dungeon, basically) and they are the stuff of H.R. Geiger's worst bad acid trip. Your characters don't know it (And pretty have no chance of ever knowing it) but Tekumel is a lost colony of a human star-faring empire 100,000+ years in our future. There are no more Caucasians because the Americas (Except rural Guatemala), Europe, and all of Asia except rural Sri Lanka and the Yemeni deep desert got wiped in a nuclear war long before recorded history.

You are barbarians from some obscure podunk nation. Probably buck naked, maybe in a grass skirt. Your shitty boat has just washed up on the shores of Tsolyanu, "The Empire of the Petal Throne". It's a very, very old, regimented, bigoted, densely populated, socially complex, and massive authoritarian empire that's sorta like a cross between the Aztecs and Ancient China. Sorta. Kinda. If you squint hard. Tsolyanu is where the action is. Everything in the EotPT revolves around clans... you underworld-crawl so that you can buy, weasel, or marry yourself into a clan. You are a murder-hobo, but you're a wannabe-bourgeoisie murder-hobo and there is sort of a point to it. Like Feudal Japan, "Face" and showing proper respect is really important. All crimes have only one punishment in the Empire: Being publicly impaled on a sharp pole stuck up your ass. However, only the worst cases actually reach Imperial justice, usually things get settled clan-to-clan with blood money, gifts, concessions, poisonings, etc.

Slavery, nudity, human sacrifice and drugs are all the culturally accepted day-to-day norm (Except for the weird heroin-analog drug that's sold by the scorpion-men pirates that have stone boats and rape you with their tails). Tsolyani culture is crazy-ass "Callous" by the standards of Modern Western morality. There are "Gods" (Awesome Lovecraftian alien energy beings), and their temples have a near-monopoly on magic. The gods fall into two factions: The Gods of Stability and The Gods of Change. You might think that they would hate each other but they seem to have more-or-less reached an understanding and can't fight each other openly. Your weapons and armor are made out of alchemically-treated dinosaur hide about as hard as bronze and can be in whatever outlandish color or shapes that you can afford (i.e. spiky zig-zag hook swords that make Klingon melee weapons look sensible).

OK, anything I forgot? Anything you would have worded differently?

If Kevin Crawford's rules don't ever appear, I'll just copy this and re-write it for future players (incorporating my own changes to the Tekumeli canon).

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;919285This little bit reminds me of Skyrealms of Jorune, which ultimate goal was for you to gain citizenship, if I remember correctly. It's nice to have a purpose beyond loot.

Much the same as Flashing Blades, then, where you aim to improve your Social Rank, or much like many Runequest games where you want to improve your standing in the temple's hierarchy...:)

Quote from: Luca;919349Tekumel needs only one thing to flourish: whoever is pulling the strings on it greenlighting Kevin Crawford's take on the setting.
Unfortunately it looks like there was no agreement, so it's a moot point.

As for the obscure canon, personally I wouldn't care less about my campaign being "faithful" to Barker's original one. Hell it's pretty much guaranteed mine would diverge from the very first session. Just give me the general outlook and the tools to further develop the setting, I'll do the job from there tailoring it to my table; don't need someone else to teach me how to play, thank you very much.

That's too bad. Is there any confirmation that an agreement wasn't reached?

Totally agreeing with your "don't need an Official Authority to teach me how to play, and need authorization even less" sentiment, though;).

Kevin posted over on RPG.net that no agreement was reached and he was no  longer working on this ruleset.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;920629Kevin posted over on RPG.net that no agreement was reached and he was no  longer working on this ruleset.

Well, that's too bad.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;920629Kevin posted over on RPG.net that no agreement was reached and he was no  longer working on this ruleset.

Once again, the Foundation shoots itself in the foot. Unless if course they mean to keep Tékumel obscure.

I hope that at some point maybe K.C. decides to do something like EPT with the serial numbers filed off.

Quote from: The Butcher;920720Once again, the Foundation shoots itself in the foot. Unless if course they mean to keep Tékumel obscure.

Honestly, I think it's more that they believe that the intellectual property of Tekumel is worth way more than it actually is.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;920721I hope that at some point maybe K.C. decides to do something like EPT with the serial numbers filed off.

Pundit already did that.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;919155ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW TO PLAY 1975 EotPT IN ONE BRIEF HAND-OUT:

OMG. JASC, you rule.

If that was on Kickstarter with a refreshed edition in a reasonable sized book, I'd buy it in a second.

Such as shame the IP owners aren't working with Kevin Crawford.

Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;920240I've only recently taken the plunge as a "Tekumel GM", with naive players too. Some had vaguely heard of the world. Some not at all. As a result no one was there to tell me or them that we were "doing it wrong". And we had a lot of fun the handful of times we played.

Please post more about GMing Tekumel!!

What game system are you using?

Quote from: The Butcher;920720Once again, the Foundation shoots itself in the foot. Unless if course they mean to keep Tékumel obscure.

Word. Though Gronan probably has it right, alas:).

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;920721I hope that at some point maybe K.C. decides to do something like EPT with the serial numbers filed off.

We can at least hope, and I'm going to jump on this KS;).

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;920817Pundit already did that.

Arrrows of Indra? I was wondering if it AoI was that.

Kevin has a unique approach to settings, though, that I haven't seen in products other than Vornheim, Fever Dream Marlinko or Yoo-Suin.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;920721I hope that at some point maybe K.C. decides to do something like EPT with the serial numbers filed off.

Unfortunately, that'd lose the main draw of Tekumel- the incredibly intricate and polymathic world design that Barker did. Of course, that very virtue is the thing that makes it so hard for people to approach the IP, but that's why a game designer needs to put so much effort into GM support and setting legibility work. Whenever you're working with a setting that's fundamentally alien to the Typical Modern Gamer, there are certain things a designer just has to do.

GMs and players approach games with a certain syntactic language to their play experience at the table. They expect to have conflicts, exploration, puzzles, and socializing. These "grammatical elements" of a play session aren't specific details, but are ways the players relate to what's going on in the fictional world. They expect to have to struggle with something, to explore new places, to overcome puzzling situations, and to talk with the inhabitants of this setting.

This sort of thing is so instinctive and so baked into the trad gaming style that people don't consciously think about these elements as such. In the oldest-school style, they think about dungeons with traps and monsters and weird doohickeys and shady adventurers and all the customary goods of the genre. In newer-school styles, they think about plots and storylines and what makes a good scene and so forth, but even here, these more abstract considerations are expressed in terms of villains, fights, treasures, negotiations, and investigations. You might strive to make a good plot arc, but you build it out of familiar components that are well-known to you and your players.

When you take away those building blocks, people flail. All the components that they're used to using are either not there or fit in different ways now. They try to build a familiar plot arc or sandbox and they can't find any of the usual parts, or they don't have confidence that they're "doing it right". The players are hesitant and confused because nothing seems to be operating in any way they recognize. Because they can't feel a reasonable confidence that their actions will have comprehensible reactions, they end up like repeatedly-shocked mice- they just won't do anything, or they tear off in a random direction just to make something happen.

A designer has to make these grammatical components legible to the GM and players. You have to spell it out for them: "You want a social conflict? Okay, here are the big social conflicts in this setting, here are the usual participants, here's what each side wants, and here's now the PCs can get involved." You need to handhold them through adventure creation, giving them simple templates they can fill out of a box of parts you explicitly provide. Need an Evil High Priest? Okay, here's a list of priests who'd likely be good antagonists. Want a Cruel Lord? Have a collection of them, along with what's so cruel about them. Require a Sympathetic Victim? Here's a list of types who'd likely appeal to the players and why they're powerless to help themselves.

At the crudest level, it's a matter of taking familiar Standard Game Session tropes and patterns and giving the GM and players setting-appropriate elements to slot into their familiar fun. If the designer is good, he can then fit in more setting-specific play situations that wouldn't make sense in a standard fantasy setting and do so in a way the GMs and players find approachable.

For Tekumel, there are a lot of setting-specific play situations that wouldn't be comprehensible in Ye Olde Fantasye Realme. Bringing those out and making them legible to readers and players is a major design task, and if you handle it the wrong way, you're just going to confuse people even more. I'm not surprised that kind of work hasn't gotten more attention from designers, because it is extremely hard to do.

Quote from: SineNomine;920868For Tekumel, there are a lot of setting-specific play situations that wouldn't be comprehensible in Ye Olde Fantasye Realme.

Such as?
I mean, I can probably think of situations from authentic/historical Europe that don't come up in 'Ye Olde Fantasye Realme' play either. So most fantasy games aren't all that authentic/historical... but people enjoy them anyway. Why is that aspect necessary for Tekumel play? Is it a caution against play being too 'shallow'?


Meanwhile, what's wrong with Bethorm (https://www.amazon.com/Bethorm-Plane-Tekumel-Jeff-Dee/dp/1312112506)?

Quote from: Simlasa;920896Such as?

Anne just rolled up a disgraced noblewoman, Bob's a ratcatcher, Chuck's a foreign mercenary, and Dee is a wizard's apprentice. This is a perfectly acceptable Standard Fantasy Party. It is also a party that could not even talk directly to each other in public in default Tsolyani society without elaborate social engineering to justify such outrageous social intermingling.

Different editions of Tekumel games have tried to deal with this in different ways. One of the more common one is to just make all PCs belong to high-ranking clans so they can directly socialize without causing people's heads to explode. This kind of radical social stratification is nonexistent in the Standard Fantasy Realm. You might have a social gulf between classes, but the Standard Fantasy Realm expresses it by having the elites be assholes to the commoners, not by completely sealing them off from association. Players understand, "The baron is an asshole to the peasants." They don't understand "My tanner PC directly addressed the Sea Blue patrician's first wife so her bodyguards broke my jaw and threw a coin in my face."

And let's not even get into concepts of honorable and dishonorable behavior in a world where the is absolutely no universalized personal morality. The Standard Fantasy Realm is very big on Black and White, whereas Tekumel is Orange and Blue.

...and yet more proof that Kevin Crawford should be doing Tekumel.

Quote from: SineNomine;920897Anne just rolled up a disgraced noblewoman, Bob's a ratcatcher, Chuck's a foreign mercenary, and Dee is a wizard's apprentice. This is a perfectly acceptable Standard Fantasy Party. It is also a party that could not even talk directly to each other in public in default Tsolyani society without elaborate social engineering to justify such outrageous social intermingling.

And this is why Tekumel badly needs a barbarian to come in and tread its jewelled crowns beneath his sandalled feet.

Sure, you could do that.

But what made Tekumel FUN was that it WASN'T about that.  Once Phil dropped the whole "barbarian on a boat" thing and started players as young members of a medium-status clan is when things got fun.  Adventuring in the City of the Dead under Jakalla was just like any other dungeon crawl; fun, sure, but still a dungeon crawl.  We ALL had our own custom monsters.

But once we started actually interacting with the society is when it became fun in a unique way.  It was the exact opposite from the mostly Hollywood-feudal society of D&D; it was more like Hollywood Egypt/Rome/India/Aztecs.  It was a Hollywood EMPIRE and that's what made it different and fun.

I can be All Conqueror of Foes Cheese in almost any fantasy game.  Tekumel's appeal was that it was something different.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;920947Tekumel's appeal was that it was something different.

Please talk more about this.

Quote from: Spinachcat;920823Please post more about GMing Tekumel!!
What game system are you using?

I've been using Béthorm, although I also plan on testing the free Dave Morris' free, battle-tested Tirikelu system sooner than later.
Bethorm has strong echoes of GURPS but it's lighter and faster. Recommended.
I wrote a little blurb introducing the system here:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35187-Let-s-Talk-About-EPT&p=918774&viewfull=1#post918774

You could start by listening to Jeff Dee's very good introduction to gaming on Tékumel here:
http://www.celesticon.com/Podcasts/Podcasts2015/JeffDee_Tekumel_C2015.mp3
He briefly talks about pronouncing the words, before quickly moving on to answering the question: "How can I ever be expected to understand all of this stuff and get it all right?"
Lots of tips and hints.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;920947Adventuring in the City of the Dead under Jakalla was just like any other dungeon crawl; fun, sure, but still a dungeon crawl.  We ALL had our own custom monsters.
But once we started actually interacting with the society is when it became fun in a unique way.  It was the exact opposite from the mostly Hollywood-feudal society of D&D; it was more like Hollywood Egypt/Rome/India/Aztecs.

Gronan is 100% correct. Tekumel is really not very different from your regular game world of choice.

RPGing on Tékumel keeps being made into something complex and insurmountable because the cultures are so alien, so weird and OMG, so unique and wildly bizarre, etc.
It's not. Period.
It is dense, yes. It is detailed, yes. And it does require the GMs to work a bit harder than usual at prepping the adventures. But that's not what I call complex or unique or strange. That's what I call thinking about the society in which the PCs evolve a bit more, and thinking about the NPCs those adventurers meet along the way a bit more, which makes for a richer and more fun RPG experience.

Keep in mind that you're not being asked to play aliens either. You're being asked to play human beings. As such, expect human being stuff: love, friendship, treason, ambition, etc.
How strange! How weird! How alien!

So, run your games the way you'd run any other, semi-old-school RPG session.

At first, focus on keeping things simple, for yourself and the players:

- Have the adventures take place in and around some rural/remote clan.
- Have all your players roll characters from different lineages but from the same clan.
- Have all your players pick gods/goddess from the same pantheon (either Change or Stability) to avoid game-breaking conflicts later on.
- Get your players involved in some old-school achievable adventures with clear goals/objectives, whether they are "off the boat" barbarians or members of a medium rural clan: find where that boy is; why haven't we heard from the hunters/merchants/sailors in a while; what is that weird structure that's now coming out from the local hill; there's a thief about! There are thousands of such adventures out there for all sorts of games.
- At first, think of clans as fantasy-setting guilds, and lineages as, well, regular families. We, as 21st Century people, understand what families are since we are members of our respective families, with the shady uncle, the crazy grand-dad, the sweet granny, etc. And we work with "guild members" too: work colleagues, the cool ones, the pain-in-the-butt ones, the helpful ones, etc.
- Keep in mind that all Tekumelani things revolve around one's appearance, one's honor, and keeping one's clan/lineage/temple proud. You do so, well, by looking good and behaving honorably, whatever that entails in the temple and/or clan of your choice. And by the way, we all understand the concept of honor in a semi-traditional setting since we've all seen those samurai films.
- Tell things to your player about the world directly as a GM, or, more adroitly, as an NPC. For instance, have the head of your PCs' clan remind them, at the start of their first adventures, that they should behave honorably and not shame the clan, etc. Some street urchin met in some city can be one such unofficial guide to Tekumelani daily-life. Etc.
- Keep in mind that almost any issue can be resolved by putting the right amount of money in the right hands.

And then, as things progress inject a bit more detail:

- Start using a bit more Tsolyani words, for atmosphere. Simple ones. Your players don't have to do it at all, of course.
- Clans and lineages are like guilds and families respectively, sure, but not quite.
- Give your PCs a backstory. The Bethorm rules, with its system of advantages and disadvantages, help that way. But if you use another system, just come up with some backstory that might answer such basic questions as, what does the character want? Who are his/her friends? What's his/her greatest fear? etc. Regular RPG stuff.
- Give your NPCs a life of their own too! What do they want? Where are they from? Etc. Regular RPG stuff too. This approach will make your games that much more interesting down the line, as your key NPCs (be they clan-leaders or rich employers) will keep showing up in the lives of your PCs, etc.
- Don't allow your players to play Tekumel's aliens, unless it's for some unusual game session, like a one-shot. That way, you keep the aliens weird and strange.
- Get inspiration on the look, smell, and taste of things everywhere and anywhere! For instance:

• Read the first Tekumel novel and you'll see that we're dealing with very normal adventures and very normal daily lives where clan politics are really not that important.
• Read, if you can get your hands on them, the solo-adventures from the Gardasiyal RPG. Again, you'll realize that Tekumel is like any other fantasy world when it comes to going on adventures, meeting people, etc.
• Wanna see what going on an expedition looks like on Tekumel? Watch the opening of Aguirre the Wrath of God: https://youtu.be/4dbBur_bSUE
  
• Wanna see what a religious festival might look like on Tekumel? A video on the Kumbh Mela Hindu pilgrimage in India will do: https://youtu.be/wCnX2XCBMAA
  
• Wanna know what some of Tekumel forests sound like? Jungle sounds should give you a hint: https://youtu.be/u4pZcU16mIA
  
• Wanna see what peering beyond the veil of Tekumel's reality is like? Any fractal video will do https://youtu.be/AgdN5yO39UI
  
• If you see some wild Asian fantasy film trailer, think of the magic in it as being advanced, futuristic technology that harnesses extra-planar energy, like here https://youtu.be/Gsy6u5LdRRA
  
• Don't hesitate to make it pulpy, campy, and tongue-in-cheek, with loads of colors and outrageous situations when appropriate: "No! Not the Bore Worms!" https://youtu.be/x0Ev2qiY08M
  

Good god. Stop with the tl;dr lecturing. What part of 'let's have a Tekumel discussion that isn't inevitably monopolized by Tsolyani-named super troopers' didn't you understand?

This reminds me of when you watch those cooking shows and the chef spends 30 minutes doing 50 steps with 12 different pots and pans and 15 obscure ingredients and says, "See? It's really simple!" Yes, for a professional it is.

What it comes down to is that nobody is going to do months of study just to play a game once a week. There are good reasons for Tekumel's obscurity, just as there are good reasons Rolemaster was less popular than D&D, and GURPS4e is less popular than GURPS1e.

Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;921040RPGing on Tékumel keeps being made into something complex and insurmountable because the cultures are so alien, so weird and OMG, so unique and wildly bizarre, etc.

That's awesome. Thank you!!

Sounds like a cool, dense setting. The linguistics appear to be a challenge. Is there an easy idiot proof pronunciation guide online to print for players?

Quote from: Kellri;921112Good god. Stop with the tl;dr lecturing. What part of 'let's have a Tekumel discussion that isn't inevitably monopolized by Tsolyani-named super troopers' didn't you understand?

So, is he not allowed to express an opinion in this thread, particularly when asked a direct question oh great arbiter of all things Tekumel?

Quote from: The Butcher;920720Once again, the Foundation shoots itself in the foot. Unless if course they mean to keep Tékumel obscure.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;920773Honestly, I think it's more that they believe that the intellectual property of Tekumel is worth way more than it actually is.

Depends on whos got the reigns. It seems that again and again in media we end up with someone in control of an IP who is really its worst enemy in disguise, despises the IP and seemingly only got the position so they could bury it.

If they are overvaluing the IP, and that is also fairly common, then dont expect a change until the current loons die and are replaced with someone sane. If ever.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;920947Sure, you could do that.

But what made Tekumel FUN was that it WASN'T about that.  Once Phil dropped the whole "barbarian on a boat" thing and started players as young members of a medium-status clan is when things got fun.  Adventuring in the City of the Dead under Jakalla was just like any other dungeon crawl; fun, sure, but still a dungeon crawl.  We ALL had our own custom monsters.

But once we started actually interacting with the society is when it became fun in a unique way.  It was the exact opposite from the mostly Hollywood-feudal society of D&D; it was more like Hollywood Egypt/Rome/India/Aztecs.  It was a Hollywood EMPIRE and that's what made it different and fun.

I can be All Conqueror of Foes Cheese in almost any fantasy game.  Tekumel's appeal was that it was something different.

Thats the feel I got too from Adventures. With the added options of lots of non-combat things to delve into if you were so inclined. Id have liked to have seen the merchanting and scholarly sides fleshed out more. But whats there gives you some insights into the place.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;921113This reminds me of when you watch those cooking shows and the chef spends 30 minutes doing 50 steps with 12 different pots and pans and 15 obscure ingredients and says, "See? It's really simple!" Yes, for a professional it is.

What it comes down to is that nobody is going to do months of study just to play a game once a week. There are good reasons for Tekumel's obscurity, just as there are good reasons Rolemaster was less popular than D&D, and GURPS4e is less popular than GURPS1e.

Except you dont need months of study to play Tekumel.

It all sounds very stultifying.

Quote from: Omega;921123Except you dont need months of study to play Tekumel.

Then why does nobody play it?

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;921118So, is he not allowed to express an opinion in this thread, particularly when asked a direct question oh great arbiter of all things Tekumel?

I don't know, it just seemed overly long and tediously pedantic. Kind of the same reason many people avoid EPT. BTW, is Shemek your Babylonian name?

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;921118So, is he not allowed to express an opinion in this thread, particularly when asked a direct question oh great arbiter of all things Tekumel?

Ignore the crybaby  trolls and their tantrums. carry on as if free speech is the norm in this forum. Some tools think they're still posting in TBP.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;921139Then why does nobody play it?

Do you have a point about the subject of the thread, or are you just here to shit on people's fun?

Quote from: yosemitemike;921135It all sounds very stultifying.

What's stultifying about Anthony and Cleopatra by Cecil B. DeMille?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;921151What's stultifying about Anthony and Cleopatra by Cecil B. DeMille?

What does watching a movie have to do with anything?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;921139Then why does nobody play it?

Are you trying out for the next village idiot position?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;921139Then why does nobody play it?

It's a fair question, but the context needs to be considered regarding how much of RPG audience exists outside of D&D / Pathfinder D&D / OSR D&D / White Wolf who are playing all the rest of the stuff on the market. Perhaps EPT is best seen as a D&D setting, and thus compared to the number of people still playing Dark Sun or Planescape.

I do, but even most D&Ders have never played either setting.

The lack of success of other games is not in itself an explanation for ept's lack of success. Nor is "it's not D&D, which is what everyone plays." Why does everyone play D&D? Why did fewer people play D&D4e than 3.5? Why fewer playing 3.5 than once played AD&D1e? Why is GURPS4e played less than GURPS1e? Why did more people play Twilight 2000 than Aftermath? Why was Rolemaster more popular than merp? Why was Mongoose Traveller more successful than Traveller 5e?

There are reasons some games succeed and others fail. There are reasons some games nobody played are forgotten, and some nobody played are much admired anyway, like ept.

Anyone who wishes to make a new edition or clone of these old games, or even wants to get a group together, has to face these questions and answer them without looking at things through the fanboy filter of "they just don't appreciate the genius!"

Apologies for "sounding pedantic". That really wasn't the intent.
I happen to love the world. I happen to be having a very good time with. And the world has rekindled my enjoyment of RPGs. I was merely interested in sharing some of my enthusiasm with the person who asked me for tips. Isn't that the idea behind this thread?

We can all agree that Tekumel is not for everybody. But that's also true of any other game world. If doesn't rock your boat, well, just play something else and have a good time doing it.

Peace.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;921139Then why does nobody play it?

I think the explanation is fairly obvious.  It's over 40 years old and hasn't really been in the public eye for decades.  It's well known here but most gamers are probably only vaguely aware of it as an early RPG if they have heard of it at all.  When was the last time it was on store shelves?  11 years ago?  I don't remember ever even seeing that version in a store.  Many gamers have probably never even seen a copy of any edition.  It's available in PDF format but you have to hunt it down.  People are not going to go out of their way to hunt down something they are only vaguely aware of or have never heard of.  It's much admired in some circles, like this site, but is probably largely forgotten outside of those circles.  People haven't heard of it or are only vaguely aware of it as an early RPG that they probably think is long defunct.  It has been effectively defunct for long stretches including the last decade or so.

Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;921176Apologies for "sounding pedantic". That really wasn't the intent.
I happen to love the world. I happen to be having a very good time with. And the world has rekindled my enjoyment of RPGs. I was merely interested in sharing some of my enthusiasm with the person who asked me for tips. Isn't that the idea behind this thread?

We can all agree that Tekumel is not for everybody. But that's also true of any other game world. If doesn't rock your boat, well, just play something else and have a good time doing it.

Peace.

Hey Neshm,

Don't apologise for your enthusiasm. Many others feel the same way about Tekumel. It's kept me interested in RPGs for decades. You will always get people who slag Tekumel and its fans. They don't have to read posts if they don't like them.

If you tried to run Forgotten Realms with every single damn thing in the canon it would be at least as intimidating as Tekumel. Probably moreso, actually, as so much of the material is inconsistent.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;921187If you tried to run Forgotten Realms with every single damn thing in the canon it would be at least as intimidating as Tekumel. Probably moreso, actually, as so much of the material is inconsistent.

You would also have to somehow run a campaign that took place everywhere on Faerun at the same time.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921181I think the explanation is fairly obvious.  It's over 40 years old and hasn't really been in the public eye for decades.

I don't know about 40 years ago, but 30 years ago when I first got a copy, nobody played it then, either.

QuoteWhen was the last time it was on store shelves?  11 years ago?  I don't remember ever even seeing that version in a store.  Many gamers have probably never even seen a copy of any edition.

If it were popular, they would have kept publishing it, and would probably have several editions of it for good measure.

I've haven't seen any version of EPT on a store shelf in many years... but that goes for a LOT of RPGs that aren't some form of D&D or D20 related.
I've never met anyone who ran it either.
Still, I can readily see it's influence in my own settings and in various commercial products.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;921292I don't know about 40 years ago, but 30 years ago when I first got a copy, nobody played it then, either.

Obviously somebody played it even if you and I didn't know them.  

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;921292If it were popular, they would have kept publishing it, and would probably have several editions of it for good measure.

It's a setting that appears occasionally only to drop off the face of the Earth again shortly afterwards.  Every ten years or so it appears and then disappears again.  The Guardians of Order version came out as Guardians of Order was on their way out and barely made a ripple.  Most people probably never saw it or realized it had even come out.  It's hard to build a market for something that comes out once a decade only to vanish again in short order.  It would probably always be a niche game because of its unusual setting but the erratic, limited availability made it next to impossible for the game to find any audience.

Quote from: Spinachcat;921114That's awesome. Thank you!!

Sounds like a cool, dense setting. The linguistics appear to be a challenge. Is there an easy idiot proof pronunciation guide online to print for players?

First rule of playing on Tekumel: ignore the pronunciation, or just assign a meaning to the '-signs and read it in Spanish.
Seriously, people don't learn Mandarin Chinese for wuxia games, nor Cantonese for Feng Shui games set in Hong Kong. Even fewer learn 17th century French for swashbuckling games set in 17th century France.
No need to get more serious about made-up languages than we are about real languages.
Especially since not even the creator insisted on that amount of detail.

Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;921040I've been using Béthorm, although I also plan on testing the free Dave Morris' free, battle-tested Tirikelu system sooner than later.
Bethorm has strong echoes of GURPS but it's lighter and faster. Recommended.
I wrote a little blurb introducing the system here:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35187-Let-s-Talk-About-EPT&p=918774&viewfull=1#post918774

You could start by listening to Jeff Dee's very good introduction to gaming on Tékumel here:
http://www.celesticon.com/Podcasts/Podcasts2015/JeffDee_Tekumel_C2015.mp3
He briefly talks about pronouncing the words, before quickly moving on to answering the question: "How can I ever be expected to understand all of this stuff and get it all right?"
Lots of tips and hints.



Gronan is 100% correct. Tekumel is really not very different from your regular game world of choice.

RPGing on Tékumel keeps being made into something complex and insurmountable because the cultures are so alien, so weird and OMG, so unique and wildly bizarre, etc.
It's not. Period.
It is dense, yes. It is detailed, yes. And it does require the GMs to work a bit harder than usual at prepping the adventures. But that's not what I call complex or unique or strange. That's what I call thinking about the society in which the PCs evolve a bit more, and thinking about the NPCs those adventurers meet along the way a bit more, which makes for a richer and more fun RPG experience.

Keep in mind that you're not being asked to play aliens either. You're being asked to play human beings. As such, expect human being stuff: love, friendship, treason, ambition, etc.
How strange! How weird! How alien!

So, run your games the way you'd run any other, semi-old-school RPG session.

At first, focus on keeping things simple, for yourself and the players:

- Have the adventures take place in and around some rural/remote clan.
- Have all your players roll characters from different lineages but from the same clan.
- Have all your players pick gods/goddess from the same pantheon (either Change or Stability) to avoid game-breaking conflicts later on.
- Get your players involved in some old-school achievable adventures with clear goals/objectives, whether they are "off the boat" barbarians or members of a medium rural clan: find where that boy is; why haven't we heard from the hunters/merchants/sailors in a while; what is that weird structure that's now coming out from the local hill; there's a thief about! There are thousands of such adventures out there for all sorts of games.
- At first, think of clans as fantasy-setting guilds, and lineages as, well, regular families. We, as 21st Century people, understand what families are since we are members of our respective families, with the shady uncle, the crazy grand-dad, the sweet granny, etc. And we work with "guild members" too: work colleagues, the cool ones, the pain-in-the-butt ones, the helpful ones, etc.
- Keep in mind that all Tekumelani things revolve around one's appearance, one's honor, and keeping one's clan/lineage/temple proud. You do so, well, by looking good and behaving honorably, whatever that entails in the temple and/or clan of your choice. And by the way, we all understand the concept of honor in a semi-traditional setting since we've all seen those samurai films.
- Tell things to your player about the world directly as a GM, or, more adroitly, as an NPC. For instance, have the head of your PCs' clan remind them, at the start of their first adventures, that they should behave honorably and not shame the clan, etc. Some street urchin met in some city can be one such unofficial guide to Tekumelani daily-life. Etc.
- Keep in mind that almost any issue can be resolved by putting the right amount of money in the right hands.

And then, as things progress inject a bit more detail:

- Start using a bit more Tsolyani words, for atmosphere. Simple ones. Your players don't have to do it at all, of course.
- Clans and lineages are like guilds and families respectively, sure, but not quite.
- Give your PCs a backstory. The Bethorm rules, with its system of advantages and disadvantages, help that way. But if you use another system, just come up with some backstory that might answer such basic questions as, what does the character want? Who are his/her friends? What's his/her greatest fear? etc. Regular RPG stuff.
- Give your NPCs a life of their own too! What do they want? Where are they from? Etc. Regular RPG stuff too. This approach will make your games that much more interesting down the line, as your key NPCs (be they clan-leaders or rich employers) will keep showing up in the lives of your PCs, etc.
- Don't allow your players to play Tekumel's aliens, unless it's for some unusual game session, like a one-shot. That way, you keep the aliens weird and strange.
- Get inspiration on the look, smell, and taste of things everywhere and anywhere! For instance:

• Read the first Tekumel novel and you'll see that we're dealing with very normal adventures and very normal daily lives where clan politics are really not that important.
• Read, if you can get your hands on them, the solo-adventures from the Gardasiyal RPG. Again, you'll realize that Tekumel is like any other fantasy world when it comes to going on adventures, meeting people, etc.
• Wanna see what going on an expedition looks like on Tekumel? Watch the opening of Aguirre the Wrath of God: https://youtu.be/4dbBur_bSUE
  
• Wanna see what a religious festival might look like on Tekumel? A video on the Kumbh Mela Hindu pilgrimage in India will do: https://youtu.be/wCnX2XCBMAA
  
• Wanna know what some of Tekumel forests sound like? Jungle sounds should give you a hint: https://youtu.be/u4pZcU16mIA
  
• Wanna see what peering beyond the veil of Tekumel's reality is like? Any fractal video will do https://youtu.be/AgdN5yO39UI
  
• If you see some wild Asian fantasy film trailer, think of the magic in it as being advanced, futuristic technology that harnesses extra-planar energy, like here https://youtu.be/Gsy6u5LdRRA
  
• Don't hesitate to make it pulpy, campy, and tongue-in-cheek, with loads of colors and outrageous situations when appropriate: "No! Not the Bore Worms!" https://youtu.be/x0Ev2qiY08M
  

Excellent explanation! And thank you for the links.
Also, don't pay attention to trolling posts.

Quote from: Kellri;921144I don't know, it just seemed overly long and tediously pedantic.

Then go back, reread the first part, then watch the video links. There's nothing pedantic about those.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;921184Hey Neshm,

Don't apologise for your enthusiasm.

Word.


Also, the reason it's not really popular is the presentation. Some people like to present Tekumel as dry and demanding, and requiring "true expert knowledge". Most people don't want to study an academic course in order to play a game, hence most people give it a wide berth.

Alas, some of the people who believe this are among those who should be popularizing Tekumel...and that's not an attitude that helps said task.

But at the end of the day, all people with said attitude forget that Tekumel is an RPG setting. It should be treated as such, and not as a semi religious text that should be always adhered to strictly. In fact, the creator said you shouldn't treat it as Holy Writ. Anyone remember the much-neglected sidebar "Make Tekumel your own?
Also, always remember that the spirit of the creator would be angry at you if you treat his creation as a religious or semi-religious text!
(MARBarker was Muslim, and a practicing one at that. We can safely conclude that writing a religious text with over 10 gods in it is something he'd never have considered. Google "Tawhid" if you don't get the reason).

Now, if you always prepare painstakingly in order to run a new setting...you'll prepare painstakingly in order to run Tekumel, too, and it would be just another setting to you. But you shouldn't require that everyone does it the same way. Most people should just read the setting book, maybe watch a couple YouTube videos, and they can start running it!
 And if they can't wrap their heads around a detail? Well, it's better that they ditch it from the setting they use in their game*, than to ditch the setting because of a detail!


*All groups playing in any setting inevitably use a variant of said setting. This is true for Tekumel, Glorantha, and the Forgotten Realms in equal measure. The only way to avoid that is to have only one group using this setting - the one of the creator. We even have a name for such settings. It's "unpublished homebrew".

The only thing more popular than lionizing Tekumel for the untrue idea that you have to master huge volumes of linguistic and social trivia to play it, is slagging off Tekumel for the untrue idea that you have to master huge volumes of linguistic and social trivia to play it.

And that's been true since 1975.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921153What does watching a movie have to do with anything?

Good question!

Im my particular case, I like to suggest to potential players that they read a book or books and/or look at a movie to give them some idea of what kind of setting they'll be playing in - this is for extended campaigns, of course, and not for one-shots at conventions or the FLGS. As examples, the group that was in Thursday was looking at "Thief of Baghdad" as a way to introduce Tekumel, and Sunday's group has all seen "John Carter" as an introduction to Barsoom. Both groups have a varied mix of experienced players and novices, so it should be interesting.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921303Obviously somebody played it even if you and I didn't know them.  



It's a setting that appears occasionally only to drop off the face of the Earth again shortly afterwards.  Every ten years or so it appears and then disappears again.  The Guardians of Order version came out as Guardians of Order was on their way out and barely made a ripple.  Most people probably never saw it or realized it had even come out.  It's hard to build a market for something that comes out once a decade only to vanish again in short order.  It would probably always be a niche game because of its unusual setting but the erratic, limited availability made it next to impossible for the game to find any audience.

Very accurate points!!!

According to Kevin Blume of TSR, 11,000 copies of EPT were sold in the couple of years that they were publishing it. Supposedly, it outsold D&D for the same period, according to the same source.

After that, the owner of the IP had very little interest in publishing anything, which is why you get the ten-year cycle of his friends and fans Doing Something, getting no support, and walking away. (Been there, done that, still have fifty T-shirts left from the last order.) There's a reason why Mike Stackpole. Dave Arneson, and the GAMA Hall Of Shame awarded Phil a 'Ralphie' for "Being The Most Difficult Author In The Game Industry". (I still have the little statue, too; giving the acceptance speech for Phil at Origins was a lot of fun, actually.)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;921386The only thing more popular than lionizing Tekumel for the untrue idea that you have to master huge volumes of linguistic and social trivia to play it, is slagging off Tekumel for the untrue idea that you have to master huge volumes of linguistic and social trivia to play it.

And that's been true since 1975.

Very accurate.

For my Barsoom games, do I make the players learn Martian? Essay tests? Homework assignments? Or should we just play the damn world?

Quote from: Jeff Berry;921459Very accurate.

For my Barsoom games, do I make the players learn Martian? Essay tests? Homework assignments? Or should we just play the damn world?

Obviously, only people who can explain the scientific principle of the radium weapons and/or the flying ships' engine, and have published a peer-reviewed paper on it, should be allowed to participate in a game about said exalted setting!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;921386The only thing more popular than lionizing Tekumel for the untrue idea that you have to master huge volumes of linguistic and social trivia to play it, is slagging off Tekumel for the untrue idea that you have to master huge volumes of linguistic and social trivia to play it.

And that's been true since 1975.

I've seen that sort of false argument used against other RPGs too, and even other media by the village idiots and any given waste of oxygen who has never actually played the game.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921303Obviously somebody played it even if you and I didn't know them.  

It's a setting that appears occasionally only to drop off the face of the Earth again shortly afterwards.  Every ten years or so it appears and then disappears again.  The Guardians of Order version came out as Guardians of Order was on their way out and barely made a ripple.  Most people probably never saw it or realized it had even come out.  It's hard to build a market for something that comes out once a decade only to vanish again in short order.  It would probably always be a niche game because of its unusual setting but the erratic, limited availability made it next to impossible for the game to find any audience.

When I first started playing in 1977 didn't even know about EPT. Then started reading articles about it in trade mags, Interviews, ...variants. Back in the day, that's how you learned about a new game. Either dragon, or one of the many homebrew newsletters that would spring into circulation for awhile. FLGS owners seemed to glom onto the newsletters and would post them and other notices on a bulletin board at the game store. Still didn't know anyone that actually played in Colorado Springs until 1993, although I did observe some EPT games being run at Genghis Con in the early 80's.

I couldn't get a copy after I first played it in 1993. It was out print by then. Lou Zocchi had a copy of the Gamescience ziplocked version of the Swords & Glory Sourcebook, the one that included the map of Jakalla (which was also out of print by then, but he had some extra copies) which I bought in 2003 for like a $20 spot. It has all the lore, and the stuff on scripts and languages for the purists in all in 9 point font (Which I need a magnifying glass to read these days). No rules mechanics or crunch at at all, so you could really use any game system to run a game set in Tekumel. TFT, T&T, GURPS, D&D, Runequest, C&C, Fudge, Fate, ...you can use anything you want for this campaign setting, so that was a brilliant example of flawlessly perfect campaign setting, one hundred percent fluff, but highly detailed fluff that could be used any way the GM sees fit.

That alone makes it a good buy.

Quote from: AsenRG;920514If Kevin Crawford's rules don't ever appear, ...

They do seem to be an excellent upgrade from the Original D&D style rules with an emphasis on the things that have been identified as unique to Tekumel.

Treating it as "Just Another D&D Setting" doesn't seem to be the SIN that many people make it out to be, to me.

If your players are having a good time and want to keep playing, to me that is a WIN, even if nobody else would recognize it as "Tekumel".
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Quote from: GameDaddy;921466you can use anything you want for this campaign setting, so that was a brilliant example of flawlessly perfect campaign setting, one hundred percent fluff, but highly detailed fluff that could be used any way the GM sees fit..

Its not fluff if its actually relevant setting details.

This is not fluff.

QuoteThe swamp-dwelling Ahoggyá look almost like a furry barrel that has sprouted four arms and legs. They live in the wet, low-lying coastal plains across a narrow part of the southern ocean and in their extremely distant enclave, Ónmu Tlé Hléktis, beyond the most distant province of Salarvyá. These squat beings have four knobby arms and legs equally spaced around their barrel-like bodies.

Quote from: GameDaddy;921466When I first started playing in 1977 didn't even know about EPT.

I didn't have the money to buy it.  No one I knew did.

Quote from: Omega;921548Its not fluff if its actually relevant setting details.

In a gaming context, fluff generally refers to background material (regardless of importance) as opposed to crunch which refers to rules material.  It's a term carried over from wargaming.

Tekumel has to be the epitome of fluff over crunch in fantasy roleplaying. No one ever seems to give a shit which rules people use to play that game - there are several different varieties some of which are roughly compatible and some not. Heck, I would not be at all surprised if someone out there isn't using Traveller to play in that setting. So, yeah...where Tekumel is concerned it's almost all fluff all the time.

Another thing...why are there only a couple adventures available for that setting? You'd think after 40+ years someone/anyone would have written a decent introductory adventure. All I've found are two - the Tomb Complex of Nereshenbo, a fairly ho-hum dungeon crawl and another pretty rare one from Judges Guild. Either, the average Tekumel campaign involves a whole lot of dicking about, folks are writing their own adventures (and never publishing them), or they're doing the same thing everyone else does - taking the Keep on the Borderlands, changing a few names and monsters and going from there.

It may be that not only are people worried that they "Didn't get it right" but the "Canon Police" may have swooped down on those that published without permission.
It also could be that the created adventures are very specific to the group that they were created for.

There are some HERE (http://www.tekumel.com/gaming_adventures.html) that are nice seeds.
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The 'Canon Police' didn't get started until the Internet was invented, which allowed them to patrol gaming and clamp down on any unmutual thinking.

Prior to that, Phil (and Dave and Gary, for that matter) simply could not get their heads around the notion that people would not be able to come up with their own adventures - they had, after all, and weren't all those people out there in what was the gaming world at that time just as smart and clever as they were? Gronan has mentioned this before, citing a remark to this effect by Gary. And in our time publishing Phil, we got exactly one 'module' and two 'adventures' that we published in our 'zines. Phil wasn't interested in doing anything like that, and kept telling people to make up their own stuff using his world setting. All three of them were very much into what's now called 'open sandbox play', and not into what they called 'scripted adventures'.

While I also play that way, as his publisher I kept asking him for something like an introductory adventure, and he never did anything. I'm hoping that my account of our adventures will go some way to providing ideas for people; I've been told that I should can the thing and do it as a series of modules / adventures, but I have no experience or skill at that kind of thing - I'd prefer to leave it to people who have.  There are some adventures out there, these days, but there was nothing in those far-off pre-Internet days.

Phil would have answered you, like he did with me, with "So, write one." And "Make Tekumel your own."

I think there are several factors at work.
There is exceptionally high expectations. A scanned quickly hand drawn map, a couple of pages of suggested loot and opponents just doesn't cut it any more. Back in the day it was so unique to find people that knew what this RPG thing was, that a rough sketch was all that was needed to get the creative juices flowing. Now people expect presentation quality full color illustrations, 100 page detailed descriptions and an ongoing product line.

RPG players stretch across multiple generations with different fundamental sources as core foundations for their expectations. Classic literature, old black and white movies, color blockbuster movies, TV, Anime all provide different foundations for "Basic Fantasy". When there is a wide range of each of those medias, trying to have common expectations even in the same generation is hard.  

In today's fast paced world people expect to have all the needed parts ready for them to assemble into a game. A series of modules / adventures needs to be for a setting that has been advertised enough that the players know basically what to expect. They expect to be required to put in very little effort to play, except for things they want to do.
It is not that people are lazy, it is that everything else has been simplified. So why should gaming that is supposed to be entertainment, require more effort than watching a movie or reading a book?

Another issue is "political correctness". If you add details in your game, even for the Bad Guys, that offend modern sensibilities, it doesn't matter how "historically accurate" they are for the culture of the game world. Slavery for example. Pre-mechanized societies used massive amounts of labor and even the free people lived in horrid conditions. If a setting it is not presented in a "Disneyfied" version, it will be rejected.
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There's a pretty decent EPT underworld-crawl in FIGHT ON! #2.

Quote from: Greentongue;921678If a setting it is not presented in a "Disneyfied" version, it will be rejected.
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But if it is presented in a "Disneyfied" version, 1) your presentation sucks and 2) it's white-washing.

Well, at it's simplest you have the Blues against the Greens and the Reds.
The Blacks and the Browns are mostly neutral.
There are very nasty non-humans with valid reasons to hate humans and some that tolerate humans.
There are Super SCIENCE! devices that the GM can hand out that have charges. Allowing strong but controllable power level for the players.
Huge multi-level dungeons where everyone can kill people that they have to be polite to above ground.
Powerful Imperial government with Stormtroopers.
A wide selection of "Gods" that give "magic" powers and artifacts.
What's not to love?
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Quote from: Spinachcat;920952Please talk more about this.

Well, the vast majority of "pseudo Hollywood medieval fantasy RPGs" I've played sort of kind of try to portray something like the scattered castles of some of the Rhine area or the mountainous part of Languedoc; that is, there are little "islands" in essentially a hostile wilderness.  The whole "points of light" thing.  Tekumel isn't like that -- you're playing in huge, well organized bureaucratic empires.  These empires have a lot of wealth, a lot of power, and a lot of soldiers.  The whole "rugged individualist" thing just won't fly.

What it does wonderfully well is the "end game" aspect of D&D I've alluded to, except instead of settling down into your castle with your land and your castle and your money and your army, you settle into the Empire.  The End Game after I became a General of a Legion was truly fascinating because, as I said, it was unlike anything I'd done before.  The usual fantasy RPG motivations of personal wealth or personal power were just "not applicable."  We totally stopped tracking both gold and XP; what "level" my character was, was far less important than that I was 1) a general of an Imperial legion and 2) a member of an upper status Clan.  And except for a bit of "walking around" money, money was irrelevant; I would get food, clothing, and shelter at any clan house, or failing that any of my Legion's bivoacs, or failing that at the local Palace of Ever Glorious War.  Besides a warm dry place to sleep, I was provided everything by my clan.  One did not go shopping; one chatted amiably with a "clan uncle" that one's armor was sadly in need of upgrading, and he would either say "That is reasonable" or "You have no need of that."

This, to start.  If it inspires any more questions, have at.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;921975If it inspires any more questions, have at.

Clan vs. Class vs. Lineage.  Explain. :)

It seems like Clan is a large extended set of families related somewhat by blood, like the Rothchilds, where Lineage is a specific bloodline, like the Paris Rothchilds, and within each Clan you'll have members potentially from the Highest to the Lowest class?  Is there an equivalent of caste involved?

Also all of this is Tsolyani, but isn't that just one of many powerful empires?  Are the others completely different culturally and are any of them very detailed?

Well, Clan is the superior division, and is closely related if not identical to class.  Your status is the status of your Clan. Much like it says in "Time Traveler's Guide to Medieval England," what matters is where you belong and who will protect you.  That is your clan.  I was a member of Golden Sunburst, a high clan.  Less noble things that needed doing would be hired out or done by the young or those in need of discipline.

Lineage exists, and yes, it's a smaller extended family within the greater extended family of the Clan.  But lineage rarely came into it except for names. I never experienced any internecine struggle in a Clan between lineages, but I'm sure that in a place with such a large population it happened.

I think the other of the Five Empires were nearly as detailed as Tsolyanu, though Tsolyanu was clearly Phil's favorite.  But my memories of the difference grow dim.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;921975This, to start.  If it inspires any more questions, have at.

What would you do in a session as a General?  High ranking military officers seem to spend most of their time sitting in briefings and dealing with paperwork.  In a highly bureaucratic state, I would think he would have to spend even more time messing with paperwork and dealing with bureaucratic processes.  I assume your play time was not spent with your character sitting in briefings and ordering subordinates to do paperwork which he would then review (or was supposed to review anyway) and sign.

Quote from: yosemitemike;922064What would you do in a session as a General?  High ranking military officers seem to spend most of their time sitting in briefings and dealing with paperwork.  In a highly bureaucratic state, I would think he would have to spend even more time messing with paperwork and dealing with bureaucratic processes.  I assume your play time was not spent with your character sitting in briefings and ordering subordinates to do paperwork which he would then review (or was supposed to review anyway) and sign.

Normally, I did the paperwork, and he killed people. Sometimes, he'd let his soldiers kill people. On very rare occasions, he'd even let me kill people. :)

Seriously, he didn't have to do the paperwork; that was my job. He'd confer with his fellow senior officers in relatively short meetings, and then he'd go out and lead his troops into battle - which we would usually game as an RPG, but on great occasions we do with figures on the table. He was always a very 'hands on' commander, and led from the front while I covered his back. (Vrisa covered mine.)

Accurate, my General? :)

Yep. I was a general in an army using the Phalangite Greek model; I commanded my legion from the battlefield.

Also, we were actively at war with our nearest neighbor.  There was PLENTY to do for a young lad with a fair head for tactics and a willingness to follow orders.  At a guess I probably resembled a modern US Army general less than a WW2 battalion commander during an active phase of the war.  I was close enough to the front to get dead.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;922207Also, we were actively at war with our nearest neighbor.  There was PLENTY to do for a young lad with a fair head for tactics and a willingness to follow orders.  At a guess I probably resembled a modern US Army general less than a WW2 battalion commander during an active phase of the war.  I was close enough to the front to get dead.

Your character was a front line commander during wartime.  That makes much more sense.  I was picturing a guy riding around the capital in a Palanquin or something.

Gronan, you have said that the "Barbarian from a boat" style of gaming quickly faded.
Was this due to few people starting play or was it made so difficult that few could actually survive?

If because of being difficult, what made it so hard?
Was it fun even if hard?
Would it have been fun if it had not been hard?
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Quote from: Greentongue;922243Gronan, you have said that the "Barbarian from a boat" style of gaming quickly faded.
Was this due to few people starting play or was it made so difficult that few could actually survive?

The Glorious General was a barbarian from a boat:D!

(I'd venture a guess and say that it wasn't because they stopped playing barbarians, but because all the characters, whether initially barbarians or no, had become integrated in the setting. But I wasn't there, so it's just a guess until confirmed or denied;)).

Quote from: Greentongue;922243Gronan, you have said that the "Barbarian from a boat" style of gaming quickly faded.
Was this due to few people starting play or was it made so difficult that few could actually survive?

If because of being difficult, what made it so hard?
Was it fun even if hard?
Would it have been fun if it had not been hard?
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It originally happened, I think, so the PCs could be "outsider" characters who gradually get introduced into Tekumel, just like the Doctor's companion is there to give him an excuse to explain things to the audience.

After 4 years or so Phil figured out that it was simply more fun to assume people were part of the society and not be afraid to tell them 'Your character would know...'

And he was right.  The whole "you must huddle fearfully in the Foreigner's Quarter until you're third level" got old fast.  That's why I joined the army.  Tsolyani society is all about "where do you belong," and in the uniform of a cohort commander in the Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire, it was instantly obvious to one and all exactly where I belonged.

For those of you who have run/played L5R and EPT, how similar are the social issues in the games?

For those not familiar, Legends of the Five Rings has the Empire, the Clans, the Families and the pseudo-Bushido trappings of honor and the separation of the low and high classes in society.

Quote from: Spinachcat;922414For those of you who have run/played L5R and EPT, how similar are the social issues in the games?

I hate to say "as similar as you want them to be" but, the original rule printing give very little detail on such things.
You have to extrapolate how you think things should be.
Obviously this means you can make Your Tekumel as similar as you want.

As for the highly detailed later version, you may be better off Questioning chirine ba kal. ;)
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Quote from: Spinachcat;922414For those of you who have run/played L5R and EPT, how similar are the social issues in the games?

For those not familiar, Legends of the Five Rings has the Empire, the Clans, the Families and the pseudo-Bushido trappings of honor and the separation of the low and high classes in society.

Adventures seemed to indicate that you can marry into positions. Or at least your kids can be born into a better status thus. It seemed as if house positions were somewhat mercurial and might rise or fall as fortune shines on one or the other.

Having kept a Play by Post running for a year, I can say that slavishly following established canon is not a requirement for players to enjoy a game.

So, I'd say that you can bend things however your play group prefers.
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Quote from: yosemitemike;922234Your character was a front line commander during wartime.  That makes much more sense.  I was picturing a guy riding around the capital in a Palanquin or something.

I did some of that too, although I usually walked to appear more "military." Tsolyani armies are more like ancient Greek or some medieval armies; the state supplies only very basic equipment if any.  If I wanted to equip my legion with steel corslets it would be out of my pocket (or actually my clan's pocket.)  So that puts one into the whole roleplaying aspect of maneuvering through the clan society, which Chirine has already written about in his thread.

Quote from: Spinachcat;922414For those of you who have run/played L5R and EPT, how similar are the social issues in the games?

Similar. The family is more important than the individual. And, this extended family (clan) will help you out when you need it, but you'll be hit up for favors too. That's the #1 thing that was hard for players to grasp in either setting. There are social obligations and demonstrations of respect that you can't just ignore if you don't feel like it. Well, you can, but there will be consequences.

I've found that as long as you don't sandbag the players, they adjust.

If you're playing a person visiting the court of Henry VIII or Catherine the Great or Harald Fairhair or Caligula or a Yakuza Oyabun, you're expected to do the right thing as well, and opening your piehole at the wrong time might end up with you missing a head, missing a finger, finding yourself in a duel to the death or being crucified.  Granted Fairhair's court might not be as subtle, but at the same time, chances are your players know next to nothing about it.  How far you sit from the king at the table in his meadhall can be every bit as dangerous as sitting on the wrong dais, not bowing the correct number of inches, or how many fingers to hold out and whether the palm is up or down.

That's why Baby Jesus invented Culture and Knowledge skills.  Or GM's figured out they should say "Your character knows that wouldn't be a good idea."

Quote from: CRKrueger;923312Or GM's figured out they should say "Your character knows that wouldn't be a good idea."

This.

Now, of course, there are those who will say "I do it anyway," but what the fuck, the rules can't fix stupid.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;923383Now, of course, there are those who will say "I do it anyway," but what the fuck, the rules can't fix stupid.

Nope, but Critical Hit Tables can do wonders. :)

One played a game where we were characters on an exploration-embassy mission up the coast of a continent, going from a pseudo-european to pseudo-asian area. We were brought before a god-king and told to prostrate ourselves. We refused. "I'll drop on one knee as I do with my own king, but I'm not face-planting." We knew this was dangerous, but felt it was well within the bounds of reasonable roleplaying, since historically this was a point of contention with european visitors to oriental courts. For example, as I recall it part of the treaty settling the Opium War said that foreign ambassadors would no longer have to prostrate themselves before the Chinese emperor (I think he just refused to see them after that).

The GM said, "The guards attack. You die."
"Don't we even get a roll?"
"No. Odds are overwhelming."
"At least let us have a roll, maybe we could fight our way back to the ship, or -"
"And everyone on the ship is killed, too."
"No roll for them?"
"No."

My view is: do what you like, and you'll always at least get a roll.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;923576My view is: do what you like, and you'll always at least get a roll.

Does seem a bit extreme.
A Reaction Roll would be reasonable. Who knows, they be in a good mood that day and just amputate your legs. :p

But seriously, "They all die" is not very entertaining. Why play at all if it is not entertaining?
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Quote from: Kyle Aaron;923576One played a game where we were characters on an exploration-embassy mission up the coast of a continent, going from a pseudo-european to pseudo-asian area. We were brought before a god-king and told to prostrate ourselves. We refused. "I'll drop on one knee as I do with my own king, but I'm not face-planting." We knew this was dangerous, but felt it was well within the bounds of reasonable roleplaying, since historically this was a point of contention with european visitors to oriental courts. For example, as I recall it part of the treaty settling the Opium War said that foreign ambassadors would no longer have to prostrate themselves before the Chinese emperor (I think he just refused to see them after that).

The GM said, "The guards attack. You die."
"Don't we even get a roll?"
"No. Odds are overwhelming."
"At least let us have a roll, maybe we could fight our way back to the ship, or -"
"And everyone on the ship is killed, too."
"No roll for them?"
"No."

My view is: do what you like, and you'll always at least get a roll.

And this is a great example how some people manage to make fantasy games less interested and varied than real life;).

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;923576One played a game where we were characters on an exploration-embassy mission up the coast of a continent, going from a pseudo-european to pseudo-asian area. We were brought before a god-king and told to prostrate ourselves. We refused. "I'll drop on one knee as I do with my own king, but I'm not face-planting." We knew this was dangerous, but felt it was well within the bounds of reasonable roleplaying, since historically this was a point of contention with european visitors to oriental courts. For example, as I recall it part of the treaty settling the Opium War said that foreign ambassadors would no longer have to prostrate themselves before the Chinese emperor (I think he just refused to see them after that).

The GM said, "The guards attack. You die."
"Don't we even get a roll?"
"No. Odds are overwhelming."
"At least let us have a roll, maybe we could fight our way back to the ship, or -"
"And everyone on the ship is killed, too."
"No roll for them?"
"No."

My view is: do what you like, and you'll always at least get a roll.

Yeah, that's a terrible response on the GM's part.

Has anyone tried a game of EPT using the concept of Metamorphosis Alpha?

Where, the players are newly awaken and deep in the Underworld.
Nearby are the suspended animation chambers that, some of, have just dumped their contents, the players.
There are more mostly featureless boxes that have yet to open.
Nobody remembers why there are there or even where There is.
(Pick a rule system but if they ever reach the surface, they are on Tekumel.)
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Well, it seems that the Old Style play is still a valid method.

My Play by Post plods along and those things usually die off faster than a Mayfly.

Anyone else been able to get their EPT on (in the old fashion way even)?
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Quote from: Greentongue;928491Well, it seems that the Old Style play is still a valid method.

You're saying that on a forum full of OSR guys, many of which run their own groups. I'd say there's a decent chance for you to be correct:).

Of course, I'd like to add to that that old school isn't about the rules you're using, but the attitude;).

If Swords of the Petal Throne (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4qCWY8UnLrcUG9WX1ZfcTJweTA/view?usp=sharing) had been the original rules, would the setting still have been considered too dense?

Would the rule presentation really have made the difference?

I'm assuming that the initial price for the box set was the major roadblock. I know it certainly hurt my pocket at the time.
Luckily, I had the disposable income from being in the Navy.
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Quote from: Greentongue;928887If Swords of the Petal Throne (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4qCWY8UnLrcUG9WX1ZfcTJweTA/view?usp=sharing) had been the original rules, would the setting still have been considered too dense?

Would the rule presentation really have made the difference?

I'm assuming that the initial price for the box set was the major roadblock. I know it certainly hurt my pocket at the time.
Luckily, I had the disposable income from being in the Navy.
=

Probably not; this was forty years ago, remember. The dense setting was a big part of the appeal; nobody had seen anything like it before, and I'd suggest that they would not do so again for decades.

Yes; Part of EPT's appeal, TSR said, was the 'deluxe' presentation.

Not for almost 11,000 people, according to TSR. They did an initial print run of 1,000 copies, which they expected would last for years based on the sales at the time of D&D; instead, it sold out in two months, and TSR had to run two additional 5,000 copy print runs to keep up with demand. Zocchi got about 250 copies when he bought the left-overs, so there were a lot of sales. In his letter to Prof. Barker announcing the larger print runs, Kevin Blume of TSR said that on a monthly basis, EPT was out-selling D&D by a factor of two to three.

How many copies actually got used in games? The only numbers we have are from TSR, which thought about 250 campaigns were running in the late 1970s. My gut feeling is that if Phil and the Blumes hadn't had their disagreements, things would have been a lot different.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;928900My gut feeling is that if Phil and the Blumes hadn't had their disagreements, things would have been a lot different.

"Thief TSR!  We hates it forever, Precious!" is about all I ever got out of Phil.

A TSR where Tekumel had been more influential as a setting would certainly have been more interesting.

Quote from: RPGPundit;930343A TSR where Tekumel had been more influential as a setting would certainly have been more interesting.

Agreed. Things would have been much more open-minded and a lot less parochial.

In the back of the original rules the example of play was entering the underworld.
What could easily be an extension to a huge complex.

QuoteGood to see new content for Tekumel, and Dyson does good work.
Here are some links:
Main link https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/maps/my-private-jakalla/

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DysonLogos/posts/XzxUKfYTWmf?sfc=true
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DysonLogos/posts/1gdUw7LV5rW?sfc=true

Is this all we need to return to our gaming past?
Not sure about everyone else but I could easily spend many fun hours/days exploring.
=

Quote from: Greentongue;932332In the back of the original rules the example of play was entering the underworld.
What could easily be an extension to a huge complex.



Is this all we need to return to our gaming past?
Not sure about everyone else but I could easily spend many fun hours/days exploring.
=

Could very well be; the original Thursday night group out at Phil's was specifically founded with the mandate of exploration, and not just random killing and looting. If that's our gaming past, I'm all for it... :)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932360Could very well be; the original Thursday night group out at Phil's was specifically founded with the mandate of exploration, and not just random killing and looting. If that's our gaming past, I'm all for it... :)

I'm all for exploration being even better represented in my gaming future, for that matter;).

Quote from: AsenRG;932372I'm all for exploration being even better represented in my gaming future, for that matter;).

Agreed! I don't mind a little swordplay along the way, but exploration was always our big emphasis.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932394Agreed! I don't mind a little swordplay along the way, but exploration was always our big emphasis.

I'll sign up for exploration over endless hack and slash any day. This is what I have been doing in my games for years.

Shemek.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;932398I'll sign up for exploration over endless hack and slash any day. This is what I have been doing in my games for years.

Shemek.

Agreed! It always seemed more for fun for everyone, including Phil... :)

"What the hell is this, Barker?!?" - Gronan, on many occasions

"I dunno. Look for yourself." - Phil, in his usual less-then-helpful manner

"Let me look at that!" -Origo, in his usual inquisitive way

"Why are Chirine and Vrisa lying on the floor?" - Kayalen, on her first time out with the party

"Move over, you two, and stop hogging the whole floor!" - Kayalen, on her second time out with the party

"Where are my eyebrows?" - Origo, after the loud noise and bright lights subside

Accurate, there, my General? :)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932394Agreed! I don't mind a little swordplay along the way, but exploration was always our big emphasis.

I don't mind lots of swordplay, even:). The point was more to increase the relative share of "meeting new people and places" in our current games.

And after that we can get to the skulduggery and swordplay with said new people, and call it "a trading expedition";).

Quote from: Greentongue;928887If Swords of the Petal Throne (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4qCWY8UnLrcUG9WX1ZfcTJweTA/view?usp=sharing) had been the original rules, would the setting still have been considered too dense?

Would the rule presentation really have made the difference?

I'm assuming that the initial price for the box set was the major roadblock. I know it certainly hurt my pocket at the time.
Luckily, I had the disposable income from being in the Navy.
=

Back in the day we didn't consider the density of Tekumel to be a roadblock. We dove in head first into Tekumel, Glorantha, and dense mechanics like Chivalry and Sorcery and Space Opera.
If EPT had been a little less expensive, a little more widely available, I think it really could have caught on well.

We were actually attracted to games that encouraged exploration and encounters of the cultural variety rather than the straight up combat and traps that D&D seemed to popularize. At least that's how it was in our remote, little corner of northern New York state.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932414Agreed! It always seemed more for fun for everyone, including Phil... :)

"What the hell is this, Barker?!?" - Gronan, on many occasions

"I dunno. Look for yourself." - Phil, in his usual less-then-helpful manner

"Let me look at that!" -Origo, in his usual inquisitive way

"Why are Chirine and Vrisa lying on the floor?" - Kayalen, on her first time out with the party

"Move over, you two, and stop hogging the whole floor!" - Kayalen, on her second time out with the party

"Where are my eyebrows?" - Origo, after the loud noise and bright lights subside

Accurate, there, my General? :)

Kayalen and I are quite literally laughing out loud at this.  TOTALLY accurate.

"Hold my Ma'ash Brandy and watch this"... Origo, too often

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;932398I'll sign up for exploration over endless hack and slash any day. This is what I have been doing in my games for years.

Shemek.

I have found it hard to get people into an "explorer" mindset.  They have been so thoroughly programmed by modules and computer games that if a mysterious stranger with black cloak, black hood, black dirk, black boots, black mace, and two red glowing fires where his eyes should be does not walk up to them and say "I understand you undertake quests," they'll sit there.

I began the campaign for my current group of players with their characters returning to the village in which they lived to find a cluster of villagers holding pitchforks, hoes and other improvised weapons while the butcher's son lay dead on the ground (with greenish blood on the blade of his cleaver). One of the players imediately asked "can we kill all the villagers?" All I could say in response was "you can try..."

Thankfully one of the other players spoke up and reminded the first that "the GM doesn't like murderhoboes". I was afraid I was going to have a TPK in the first scene.

Quite a change for me from the sort I am used to gaming with, who at the slightest mention of something intersting are off like a shot to pursue it, even if it was intended to be just a fragment of overheard tavern talk not a plot hook.

Quote from: AsenRG;932417I don't mind lots of swordplay, even:). The point was more to increase the relative share of "meeting new people and places" in our current games.

And after that we can get to the skulduggery and swordplay with said new people, and call it "a trading expedition";).

You've been talking to Harchar again, haven't you? :)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932439Kayalen and I are quite literally laughing out loud at this.  TOTALLY accurate.

"Hold my Ma'ash Brandy and watch this"... Origo, too often

Yep. All too many times, to the point where we thought abut getting thinner armor so we could get closer to the floor.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932440I have found it hard to get people into an "explorer" mindset.  They have been so thoroughly programmed by modules and computer games that if a mysterious stranger with black cloak, black hood, black dirk, black boots, black mace, and two red glowing fires where his eyes should be does not walk up to them and say "I understand you undertake quests," they'll sit there.

I said it in another thread as well, Glorious General. But I did come up with a solution to that after running whole campaigns for people who had only played MMORPGs, and thus expected exactly the above...

1. Announce that the XP is only going to be given for "good roleplaying" and "chasing your goals".
2. Make them write short-, middle- and long-term goals on the character sheets.
2a. If they can't come up with some, write some for them (they can freely change them by IC actions or between sessions, so it's no big deal).
3. Explain that nobody offers quests unless they have reputations to match, and then those quests aren't often related to their goals.
3a. Make it clear they don't have such reputations, yet. So the planning is up to them.

It works for me:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932446You've been talking to Harchar again, haven't you? :)

No, he hasn't featured in the campaign lately...
Maybe we're just holding to a similar outlook?

Maybe I have to feature him again, now that you mention it;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932439Kayalen and I are quite literally laughing out loud at this.  TOTALLY accurate.

"Hold my Ma'ash Brandy and watch this"... Origo, too often

So, what were Chirine and Vrisa doing on the floor:D?

Quote from: DavetheLost;932445I began the campaign for my current group of players with their characters returning to the village in which they lived to find a cluster of villagers holding pitchforks, hoes and other improvised weapons while the butcher's son lay dead on the ground (with greenish blood on the blade of his cleaver). One of the players imediately asked "can we kill all the villagers?" All I could say in response was "you can try..."

Thankfully one of the other players spoke up and reminded the first that "the GM doesn't like murderhoboes". I was afraid I was going to have a TPK in the first scene.

Quite a change for me from the sort I am used to gaming with, who at the slightest mention of something intersting are off like a shot to pursue it, even if it was intended to be just a fragment of overheard tavern talk not a plot hook.

Maybe you could try the above trick, too?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932440I have found it hard to get people into an "explorer" mindset.  They have been so thoroughly programmed by modules and computer games that if a mysterious stranger with black cloak, black hood, black dirk, black boots, black mace, and two red glowing fires where his eyes should be does not walk up to them and say "I understand you undertake quests," they'll sit there.

Oh Glorious General I know exactly what you mean. Fortunately I have been gaming with a lot of the same guys for more than 30 years, and they quickly learnt, back in "Ye Olden Dayes", that they will have to look for adventures, and that it was probably the little skinny guy sitting in the gutter, and begging for coins who was more likely to be of use than the "mysterious dark stranger".


Shemek

I was talking to a friend about this... the  young gamer I've mentioned a couple times who's tossed over 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder and is now a devoted OD&D referee...

Anyway, after a bit, he said somewhat plaintively, "I don't know HOW to look for adventure!"

So I pointed this out on my city map:

1) There are docks and warehouses by the river, which is navigable.
2) Merchandise is traveling by water.
3) Therefore, there are pirates.  Do you want to fight them or join them?

It was rather a revelation to him.

Also, of there are import duties or tariffs, there will be smugglers and a Shore Patrol.  Same as above.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932929I was talking to a friend about this... the  young gamer I've mentioned a couple times who's tossed over 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder and is now a devoted OD&D referee...

Anyway, after a bit, he said somewhat plaintively, "I don't know HOW to look for adventure!"

So I pointed this out on my city map:

1) There are docks and warehouses by the river, which is navigable.
2) Merchandise is traveling by water.
3) Therefore, there are pirates.  Do you want to fight them or join them?

It was rather a revelation to him.

Also, of there are import duties or tariffs, there will be smugglers and a Shore Patrol.  Same as above.

That's the problem with the new mantra of "RPGs create stories" rather than the old paradigm of "RPGs create worlds".  People don't look at the setting like their character actually would.  They interact with it from without, a meta-construct, rather than from within.

Modern RPGs are filled with horseshit useless advice about Tropes, Themes, Acts, Scenes, etc... as if they are training people to write screenplays.  Which makes sense since almost all the new breed of designers are wannabe novelists or videogame writers.  

Say what you want about Gary's florid prose, in the DMG, he told you how to run a world players could roleplay in, not a story in which they could play the part - and yes there's a difference.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932929I was talking to a friend about this... the  young gamer I've mentioned a couple times who's tossed over 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder and is now a devoted OD&D referee...

Anyway, after a bit, he said somewhat plaintively, "I don't know HOW to look for adventure!"

So I pointed this out on my city map:

1) There are docks and warehouses by the river, which is navigable.
2) Merchandise is traveling by water.
3) Therefore, there are pirates.  Do you want to fight them or join them?

It was rather a revelation to him.

Also, of there are import duties or tariffs, there will be smugglers and a Shore Patrol.  Same as above.

I'm officially bookmarking this for the next time someone claims "there's no adventure but what the GM thought about" or "you need to go to adventure, it's never going to happen if you're just doing your job":).

Quote from: CRKrueger;932930That's the problem with the new mantra of "RPGs create stories" rather than the old paradigm of "RPGs create worlds".  People don't look at the setting like their character actually would.  They interact with it from without, a meta-construct, rather than from within.

Modern RPGs are filled with horseshit useless advice about Tropes, Themes, Acts, Scenes, etc... as if they are training people to write screenplays.  Which makes sense since almost all the new breed of designers are wannabe novelists or videogame writers.

I've been trained to write screenplays and find the advice in most, though not all non-narrative RPGs kinda lacking;). But when playing or running a game, that's not what I want, and just having a PC with a flair for the dramatic usually leads to better stories than following a structure, IME.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932929I was talking to a friend about this... the  young gamer I've mentioned a couple times who's tossed over 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder and is now a devoted OD&D referee...

Anyway, after a bit, he said somewhat plaintively, "I don't know HOW to look for adventure!"

So I pointed this out on my city map:

1) There are docks and warehouses by the river, which is navigable.
2) Merchandise is traveling by water.
3) Therefore, there are pirates.  Do you want to fight them or join them?

It was rather a revelation to him.

Also, of there are import duties or tariffs, there will be smugglers and a Shore Patrol.  Same as above.

Oh, for crissakes. Just shoot me now, and put me out of my misery. Harchar would have just thrown himself over the side at this.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932971Oh, for crissakes. Just shoot me now, and put me out of my misery. Harchar would have just thrown himself over the side at this.

You can teach the same lesson, Uncle;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932971Oh, for crissakes. Just shoot me now, and put me out of my misery. Harchar would have just thrown himself over the side at this.

It does kind of want to make you drown your sorrows in torpedo juice, doesn't it.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932971Oh, for crissakes. Just shoot me now, and put me out of my misery. Harchar would have just thrown himself over the side at this.

On the other hand, there have always been a lot of people who seem to either be unable to reach a logical conclusion, or to put 2 and 2 together.  Remember the Imperial Stormtroopers and "do not take carts past this point?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932992On the other hand, there have always been a lot of people who seem to either be unable to reach a logical conclusion, or to put 2 and 2 together.  Remember the Imperial Stormtroopers and "do not take carts past this point?

Yes, but those are tropes. You're saying that a perfectly healthy young person can look at a map of some mythic land and not come up with possible adventures. This explain a lot of what I've been seeing over the past decade, in gaming.

Amazing; simply amazing. But then, I'n an old codger who can look at a miniature figure or a model and spin an entire adventure off of it on the spot. I buy and build things because they give me ideas - EPT, when I first picked it up off the shelf in the Little Tin back in 1975, positively reeked of opportunity for adventures...

Havre a look at the Dark Fable or Bronze Age miniatures sites. Any ideas pop into your head? :)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;933123Yes, but those are tropes. You're saying that a perfectly healthy young person can look at a map of some mythic land and not come up with possible adventures. This explain a lot of what I've been seeing over the past decade, in gaming.

Amazing; simply amazing. But then, I'n an old codger who can look at a miniature figure or a model and spin an entire adventure off of it on the spot. I buy and build things because they give me ideas - EPT, when I first picked it up off the shelf in the Little Tin back in 1975, positively reeked of opportunity for adventures...

Havre a look at the Dark Fable or Bronze Age miniatures sites. Any ideas pop into your head? :)

Uncle, I strongly suspect that the problem Gronan solved was explaining to him that he is allowed to find adventures without the GM explicitly pointing them to him, and thus getting the wheels in his head turning again;).

(I've lost track of the times I've seen people giving the advice to GMs that "if the players want to join the navy and not bother with your adventure, nothing happens until they get back on track". And I'm starting to lose track of the people who told me on forums that "being able to come up with adventures from an off-the-cuff decision of the players is a special skills not all GMs possess":D!)

Quote from: AsenRG;933124I think the problem Gronan solved was explaining to him that he is allowed to have adventures without the GM explicitly pointing them to him, Uncle;).

Dear God. And here, for all these years, I thought that that was the way to play. The GM created a world, and we fooled around in it.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;933125Dear God. And here, for all these years, I thought that that was the way to play. The GM created a world, and we fooled around in it.

It is the way to play if you ask me:). And I haven't had a player trying it for any significant length of time and returning to "scripted stories"... Granted, some people told me they don't want to play, because they want their stories to be scripted. (And I gave them the e-mails of GMs that run those).

But the key was in the "being allowed" part. If the guy had only played with GMs that didn't allow deviating from the "adventure at hand", are you surprised he might need some prompting to unlearn the lesson?

Remember, in many people's games if you join the navy while on the quest to Retrieve The Golden Bra Of Perkiness, which is presumably the adventure the GM bought* and read, and decide to ditch his adventure? Well, suddenly nothing happens in the navy. There's no need of a navy at that point in time. No naval wars going on, nobody is jockeying for a promotion, and the pirates are conspicuously absent...
Until you decide to leave the navy and board a ship in search of The Golden Bra Of Perkiness, that is;). Then pirates appear! They're in the module, after all. And the module says "when you try to reach the islands to search for clues, pirates appear". Obviously they wouldn't appear before that:p!

And I was told last month, on this forum, that "being able to come up with a storyline for the authorities investigating the PCs killing locals after being attacked by said locals, is a special skill not many GMs possess (and something many wouldn't bother with)". Because the adventure, as planned, doesn't involve a courtroom.

At the same time, the number of "my players are deviating from my plot, what do I do" threads is...too big to count.

So yeah. After playing in this style, even I'd probably need some reminding that yes, if my pirate PC sees the Pasha's daughter on her window, he is allowed to decide to climb the wall to her window next night in order to court her.
It seems to me, from Gronan's account, that he'd merely provided that reminder. Why? Because he said it was a revelation to the guy.
If he was truly hopeless, no amount of advice would have helped;).


*With apologies to Gronan for taking his example of "adventure hook" and turning it into a module. It was for the sake of the example, Glorious General:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;933125Dear God. And here, for all these years, I thought that that was the way to play. The GM created a world, and we fooled around in it.

That is the way the vast majority of my players have always played. My current crew of kids at the public library are now doing the same. They are off to the big city to auction an owl-bear head and find an old school mega-dungeon crawl beneath the city to adventure in.  There is hope for the younger generation yet!

Quote from: AsenRG;933127And I was told last month, on this forum, that "being able to come up with a storyline for the authorities investigating the PCs killing locals after being attacked by said locals, is a special skill not many GMs possess (and something many wouldn't bother with)". Because the adventure, as planned, doesn't involve a courtroom.

Eh? Where?

Quote from: CRKrueger;933130Eh? Where?

You were in that thread, (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35346-Seriously-how-much-time-goes-into-these-quot-zero-prep-quot-games&p=925485&viewfull=1#post925485) are you kidding me or what?

It is much easier to ad-lib on the fly for rules-light RPGs than adjudicate and create out of thin air for medium to high crunch games where players have mechanical and rules-as-written expectations. I have (some) sympathy for GMs of 3x and those whose RPG experience is mostly Living Campaigns where the default play is to follow the 4 hour module from step-to-step without deviance, because its much more burdensome to whip stuff up for those players in those systems.

I imagine EPT via OD&D would be very easy for ad-libbing once someone got the setting under their belt. Once you're fully immersed, its far easier to jump off the preplanned pages. Especially since OD&D is a rules-barely-there system.

It's why I love Mazes & Minotaurs. It's faux-Mythic Greece via Harryhausen and I've got enough Greek myth expertise to keep up immersion and adventure in whichever direction the players want to go, and I'm supported by the rules-light system of M&M.

And now I shall pimpeth M&M most heartily...the greatest free RPG of 1972!!
http://storygame.free.fr/OLDMAZES.htm

Quote from: Spinachcat;933136It is much easier to ad-lib on the fly for rules-light RPGs than adjudicate and create out of thin air for medium to high crunch games where players have mechanical and rules-as-written expectations.

Having used ad-libbing for running GURPS 3e, GURPS 4e, Exalted 2, Exalted 3, Legends of the Wulin and Fates Worse than Death, I'd like to state that it's still quite possible;).

Ha! weak sauce, I've ad-libbed scenes in Chivalry and Sorcery.

When EPT was originally released there was not the flood of pre-written adventures and modules like came after.
All there was to go on was your imagination and nobody knowing any better.
If you wanted to play new characters in a strange land, like John Cater of Mars instead of pseudo-Europe, it was a great choice.

I don't remember as much Rules Lawyering then either. Fewer people knew the rules to start with.
=

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;933163Ha! weak sauce, I've ad-libbed scenes in Chivalry and Sorcery.

I'd bow to your superior rules mastery, if I were to bow to anyone:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;933134You were in that thread, (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35346-Seriously-how-much-time-goes-into-these-quot-zero-prep-quot-games&p=925485&viewfull=1#post925485) are you kidding me or what?

Hmm.  Grove doubted you would have a schedule and timetable for an NPC gang's operations, arrest, conviction, and sentencing whether or not the PCs ever interacted with them.  That is not "being able to come up with a storyline for the authorities investigating the PCs killing locals after being attacked by said locals".  That's not even remotely close to the same thing.

Neither is playing chess without a board, remembering all setting details set up on the fly without writing them down, picking the winner of a fight by their entry walk, or any of the other minor superpowers you claim :D, that people keep saying don't apply to everybody.

Quote from: CRKrueger;933213Hmm.  Grove doubted you would have a schedule and timetable for an NPC gang's operations, arrest, conviction, and sentencing whether or not the PCs ever interacted with them.

I'm too lazy to go and check whether I misremember that, but I'm pretty sure he didn't say "regardless of whether the PCs interacted with them":).

Even if it was that, a Referee doubting that another Referee might present a schedule for a gang's operation that allows the players to interact or avoid interaction with them. It's still a good enough example for my previous post;).

Which means that you, of course, are engaging in the favourite game of all RPG forums: Nit: the Picking:D!

QuoteNeither is playing chess without a board, remembering all setting details set up on the fly without writing them down, picking the winner of a fight by their entry walk, or any of the other minor superpowers you claim :D, that people keep saying don't apply to everybody.

The idea that any of these would be beyond the ability of normal people is so utterly ridiculous that calling them "superpowers" only manages to make it slightly more ridiculous:). Half the chess players in my high school class were able to play chess without looking, do you mean to imply I was studying in Supers High:D?

Quote from: AsenRG;933226I'm too lazy to go and check whether I misremember that, but I'm pretty sure he didn't say "regardless of whether the PCs interacted with them":).

Pretty sure that's what he meant.

Quote from: AsenRG;933226Even if it was that, a Referee doubting that another Referee might present a schedule for a gang's operation that allows the players to interact or avoid interaction with them. It's still a good enough example for my previous post;).

Eh, again those are two different things.

No one said that being able to come up with a logical Law Enforcement response to PC crimes was something not all GMs could do.

Planning out the World in Motion so you know everything that will happen without PC interference is definitely not done by all GMs.  Hell, that style of GMing is Anathema to the designers of half the games you play....err completely rewrite. :D

Quote from: AsenRG;933226Which means that you, of course, are engaging in the favourite game of all RPG forums: Nit: the Picking:D!

Nah. You look on this board, you'll see plenty of Idiot Savantic Rainman Pedantry, and I'm not innocent of it myself, but this isn't one of those times. ;)  Also, please stop breaking my Irony Meter.

Quote from: AsenRG;933226Half the chess players in my high school class were able to play chess without looking, do you mean to imply I was studying in Supers High:D?

Chess and Eastern Europe is a thing.  :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;933236Pretty sure that's what he meant.

Eh, again those are two different things.

No one said that being able to come up with a logical Law Enforcement response to PC crimes was something not all GMs could do.

Really? Because I've had this exact argument on other forums, though I'm not sure which ones. Maybe Rgrove didn't mean that, and I misunderstood him due to earlier discussions...but in my defence, he did sound a lot like the people in those earlier discussions.
Maybe not. It's pointless to debate it now, either way.

QuotePlanning out the World in Motion so you know everything that will happen without PC interference is definitely not done by all GMs.

I know it isn't. My whole argument is that them not doing that is the root of the problem:D!

QuoteHell, that style of GMing is Anathema to the designers of half the games you play....err completely rewrite. :D

You know that I subscribe to "the Death of the Author" theory, don't you:p?
Also, I usually only have to re-write the GMing chapter. (And if I was to join in Nit: the Picking, White Wolf games definitely don't make half the games I play:D).

QuoteNah. You look on this board, you'll see plenty of Idiot Savantic Rainman Pedantry, and I'm not innocent of it myself, but this isn't one of those times. ;)

Sure seemed that way:p!

QuoteAlso, please stop breaking my Irony Meter.

Never:D!

QuoteChess and Eastern Europe is a thing.  :D

Yeah, right. We're all Supers:)!
Wait, if being an Eastern European was a superpower, how come we're poorer than those living to the west of us;)?


And to get back to EPT, can you imagine how much more popular EPT might have been if more people were willing to run their own sandboxes? Or if there was a line of easily-accessible adventures for it?
(Gronan had mentioned that people asking for ready-made adventures was a popular demand among D&D players. And that tells me they weren't exactly looking to run their sandboxes).

Some people are tinkerers, some people are creators.  I played in the campaign of a GM who never made up a single thing out of whole cloth, every single thing he ran was cribbed from some existing module or adventure.  Deconstructed and rewritten to the point that it was unrecognizable, and may as well have been out of whole cloth, but sit him down with a pen and blank paper, he was lost.  I've also played in the campaign of a GM who would never even think of buying anything other than the basic rules.  Both were awesome campaigns.  You can sandbox from modules or railroad from your own script.

I think that's why Sine Nomine is so popular and why Vornheim was so hot.  All those random tables to prime the creative pump work better for a lot of people.

I'm more of a miner myself, especially these days due to time constraints.

Quote from: AsenRG;933239And to get back to EPT, can you imagine how much more popular EPT might have been if more people were willing to run their own sandboxes? Or if there was a line of easily-accessible adventures for it?
(Gronan had mentioned that people asking for ready-made adventures was a popular demand among D&D players. And that tells me they weren't exactly looking to run their sandboxes).

I'm going to call you (and/or Gronan) on this, although I suspect we don't disagree at all.

I do not believe clamouring for modules and playing sandbox are mutually exclusive. I remember starting with D&D in the 70s into the early 80s, in my group yes we bought modules now and then, probably one or two each over the years, mine were Hommlet and Vault if the Drow. Another guy got Fire Giants and Tamoachan. Whatever. We didn't buy them to play them, in fact we never did. It never occurred to us to play them. No, we created our own campaigns. But we bought modules to help make sense of the game and to get hints for creating our own sandboxes and our own points of interest.

Getting back to EPT, even after all these years, there is still an element of "what the hell is this, and how do I turn it into a game?"

I do believe modules can help with that. And EPT needs them. Not 500 of them, so you can play frickin prepackaged modules all your life. But a half a dozen or so to provide hints and inspiration about what the game could be, that's not a bad thing at all.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;933125Dear God. And here, for all these years, I thought that that was the way to play. The GM created a world, and we fooled around in it.

I have more to say on this, but it will probably have to wait until the weekend.

Quote from: CRKrueger;933240Some people are tinkerers, some people are creators.  I played in the campaign of a GM who never made up a single thing out of whole cloth, every single thing he ran was cribbed from some existing module or adventure.  Deconstructed and rewritten to the point that it was unrecognizable, and may as well have been out of whole cloth, but sit him down with a pen and blank paper, he was lost.  I've also played in the campaign of a GM who would never even think of buying anything other than the basic rules.  Both were awesome campaigns.  You can sandbox from modules or railroad from your own script.

I think that's why Sine Nomine is so popular and why Vornheim was so hot.  All those random tables to prime the creative pump work better for a lot of people.

I'm more of a miner myself, especially these days due to time constraints.

Maybe you can, but I seriously don't know what that looks like:).
Or maybe I do, but I'd prefer an explanation, if you don't mind.

Quote from: Zirunel;933264I'm going to call you (and/or Gronan) on this, although I suspect we don't disagree at all.

I do not believe clamouring for modules and playing sandbox are mutually exclusive. I remember starting with D&D in the 70s into the early 80s, in my group yes we bought modules now and then, probably one or two each over the years, mine were Hommlet and Vault if the Drow. Another guy got Fire Giants and Tamoachan. Whatever. We didn't buy them to play them, in fact we never did. It never occurred to us to play them. No, we created our own campaigns. But we bought modules to help make sense of the game and to get hints for creating our own sandboxes and our own points of interest.

Maybe, but that's a mode of play I've not encountered yet. People running modules, I have, people running their own sandbox games, I have encountered as well.
But "sandbox with modules" is something I don't understand.
Well, maybe I do, but not as "mining". I think the closest I've got to it was probably when we were playtesting the Price of Power setting supplement for Fates Worse Than Death. I warned I'm going to run the four adventures that are part of it (though not the greatest part).
My group made short* work of them, and I sent my feedback to the author.
But, more importantly, then I started the usual sandbox. During the adventures, they had achieved some glory and notoriety, made some contacts, met some people and formed their own opinions on people and groups. All of that helped fuel it.

Thing is, I've never seen anyone recommend using adventures in that way.
(Well, apart from PbtA games, but FWTD is as far from "a narrative game" as you can get. By which I mean "frigging Runequest, Warhammer2 and OD&D have more narrative elements, and less random tables":D).

*Literally "short" work. I was running them by the book, so obviously my players couldn't rely on knowing my style, but the results were consistent with their usual achievements. I keep worrying I was going too easy on them, but at least in this case I know it wasn't the case:D.
And one of the adventures got fullfilled in all of 10 minutes. Counting on my players to find shortcuts is something I am used to.
FWIW, I think the author changed some stuff in that adventure as a consequence.

QuoteGetting back to EPT, even after all these years, there is still an element of "what the hell is this, and how do I turn it into a game?"

That's...something else I don't understand. How do you turn it into a game?
It was before I had seen an RPG that I had an answer. "Try to imagine what life is like in the setting. Play that out. Try to survive doing so."
For the record, I was talking about the Way of the Tiger gamebooks;). In Bulgaria, those appeared about 8 years before I would see an RPG, and I was among the first players AFAIK.

QuoteI do believe modules can help with that. And EPT needs them. Not 500 of them, so you can play frickin prepackaged modules all your life. But a half a dozen or so to provide hints and inspiration about what the game could be, that's not a bad thing at all.

Well, Bethorm has at least 2 already, and I think more are on the way(or might be published already...I've said it that I'm not used to running modules, so I don't follow on that). It's not EPT, but it is Tekumel, and I assume you don't mean the mechanics of EPT, right?
You should check them. And of course, you can play them with whichever system that you want!

Quote from: Zirunel;933264I'm going to call you (and/or Gronan) on this, although I suspect we don't disagree at all.

I do not believe clamouring for modules and playing sandbox are mutually exclusive. I remember starting with D&D in the 70s into the early 80s, in my group yes we bought modules now and then, probably one or two each over the years, mine were Hommlet and Vault if the Drow. Another guy got Fire Giants and Tamoachan. Whatever. We didn't buy them to play them, in fact we never did. It never occurred to us to play them. No, we created our own campaigns. But we bought modules to help make sense of the game and to get hints for creating our own sandboxes and our own points of interest.

Getting back to EPT, even after all these years, there is still an element of "what the hell is this, and how do I turn it into a game?"

I do believe modules can help with that. And EPT needs them. Not 500 of them, so you can play frickin prepackaged modules all your life. But a half a dozen or so to provide hints and inspiration about what the game could be, that's not a bad thing at all.

You can do this, but the vast majority of people don't.

How do you mine?  You take the Caves of Chaos, rejigger the map a bit, and run it as a WWII-era Japanese bunker complex with a Cthulhu Temple hidden the back.  Or you take the Village of Hommlet, and turn it into Bon Homme, Nevada...good for Boot Hill or Gamma World, take your pick.

Or, you grab every single Goodman Games, AEG, and Necromancer Games module in existence, grab the NPCs you like, the maps you like, and rewrite them to make your own country for your PCs to run around in.

Quote from: CRKrueger;933283How do you mine?  You take the Caves of Chaos, rejigger the map a bit, and run it as a WWII-era Japanese bunker complex with a Cthulhu Temple hidden the back.  Or you take the Village of Hommlet, and turn it into Bon Homme, Nevada...good for Boot Hill or Gamma World, take your pick.

Or, you grab every single Goodman Games, AEG, and Necromancer Games module in existence, grab the NPCs you like, the maps you like, and rewrite them to make your own country for your PCs to run around in.

Well, guess I do that, after all. I just took a Traveller spaceship and am planning to crash him on some planet and use it as a dungeon-style location:).

But, as Gronan said above, the vast majority of people don't do that;).

Quote from: AsenRG;933279Well, Bethorm has at least 2 already, and I think more are on the way(or might be published already...I've said it that I'm not used to running modules, so I don't follow on that). It's not EPT, but it is Tekumel, and I assume you don't mean the mechanics of EPT, right?
You should check them. And of course, you can play them with whichever system that you want!

I am aware of the Unigames products. I haven't bought any of them but if they help inspire people in designing their own Tekumels then yes, more of that! (But not so much more that people just play modules. That would be a shame).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933282You can do this, but the vast majority of people don't.

I am kinda floored. I thought everybody used modules mostly just as sources for ideas.

Quote from: Zirunel;933293I am aware of the Unigames products. I haven't bought any of them but if they help inspire people in designing their own Tekumels then yes, more of that! (But not so much more that people just play modules. That would be a shame).

+1 to all of it.

Quote from: Zirunel;933294I am kinda floored. I thought everybody used modules mostly just as sources for ideas.

I wish you were right;).

Could the lack of such had made the difference?

Even those that mine would have nothing but their own imagination. :(

I use my vague knowledge of historic China, Conan, Carter and various old books as a source.
Luckily, I don't feel that I have to replicate the Professor's game, just borrow what feels good.

Is this now unacceptable?
=

It's perfectly viable to play EPT as D&D with different funny clothes, and it's easy too.

But most people would rather bitch than play, and that hasn't changed.  I know several people who ran their own EPT games by the "just run the gaddam game" principle.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933410But most people would rather bitch than play, and that hasn't changed.

Nailed it in one.

As you play you can introduce things that are unique. If you don't play, it is a lot harder to do that.
=

Quote from: AsenRG;933226Half the chess players in my high school class were able to play chess without looking, do you mean to imply I was studying in Supers High:D?

My high school had 1000 students.

I'd be surprised if more than 50 of them even knew the rules to chess.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;933125Dear God. And here, for all these years, I thought that that was the way to play. The GM created a world, and we fooled around in it.

Well, firstly, playing modules is now the overwhelmingly prevalent way to play.

Secondly, modules have changed.  Once upon a time, a module was a self contained adventure that you could plop down in your world.  Then... starting with "Dragonlance," I believe, but I could be wrong... modules became "story" oriented, and a whole series of modules would be run one after another.

Now this trend has continued to where you have "campaign kits," or as Pathfinder calls them "adventure paths." I personally call them "Sausage inna Bun." (You really MUST read Discworld.)  You buy one of these and proceed to barf out a year or so worth of adventures.  I've played a couple because out here in Buttfuck South Dakota it's that or nothing.  The chaps I play with are decent enough, but the adventures are trite and predictable to the point of tears.  They start you out and lead the referee and players alike by the hand through their series of pre-scripted "adventures".  The possibility of doing anything that isn't in the book doesn't even exist.  It's like running a computer game at the table top, with the same "if the programmer didn't think of it you can't do it" aspect.

And if you started gaming after about 1995 or so, this is quite literally all you know how to do.  I've seen and heard from a myriad of younger players who just simply have no concept of how to proceed if a mysterious stranger does not sidle up to them in an inn and say "I understand you undertake quests."

If you took somebody who'd never even seen a boat before and tossed them in a catboat and said "sail," I imagine you'd get a similar effect.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933620My high school had 1000 students.

I'd be surprised if more than 50 of them even knew the rules to chess.

Really? Wow, I didn't even imagine that:)!

(My high school had, and has, about the same number, but I'd be really surprised if at least 80% of them wouldn't know at least the rules. Once I brought a magnetic chess, there were maybe three people in a class of 30+ that didn't know them at all.
Knowing the rules didn't make you "a chess player", though, only playing it for fun in your free time. Most guys that counted as "chess players" were able to play blind. Once we continued playing during the lesson, and since the teacher was one of the strict ones, we only communicated the moves while pretending to listen;)).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933622Well, firstly, playing modules is now the overwhelmingly prevalent way to play.

Secondly, modules have changed.  Once upon a time, a module was a self contained adventure that you could plop down in your world.  Then... starting with "Dragonlance," I believe, but I could be wrong... modules became "story" oriented, and a whole series of modules would be run one after another.

Now this trend has continued to where you have "campaign kits," or as Pathfinder calls them "adventure paths." I personally call them "Sausage inna Bun." (You really MUST read Discworld.)  You buy one of these and proceed to barf out a year or so worth of adventures.  I've played a couple because out here in Buttfuck South Dakota it's that or nothing.  The chaps I play with are decent enough, but the adventures are trite and predictable to the point of tears.  They start you out and lead the referee and players alike by the hand through their series of pre-scripted "adventures".  The possibility of doing anything that isn't in the book doesn't even exist.  It's like running a computer game at the table top, with the same "if the programmer didn't think of it you can't do it" aspect.

And if you started gaming after about 1995 or so, this is quite literally all you know how to do.  I've seen and heard from a myriad of younger players who just simply have no concept of how to proceed if a mysterious stranger does not sidle up to them in an inn and say "I understand you undertake quests."

If you took somebody who'd never even seen a boat before and tossed them in a catboat and said "sail," I imagine you'd get a similar effect.

I started gaming in 1999 and I confirm this message. Though I must note that some people started running a "here's a world, run through it" game in 2003 and later, and I must add proudly that I've been among the pioneers of that style here:D!

Ah. So much is explained. This all fits in what what I've observed at the FLGS when I watch people play.

TBH I rather think we've entered a new Dark Ages where the ability to actually think is not taught or even indulged in. Almost every young person (under about 35) seem to think that they deserve to be entertained and if it doesn't match the push button and win system of playing video rpg games on the computer they have issues playing and certainly can't fathom using their own initiative to decide how to play. If it's isn't "I hit it with my axe" they are lost.

Regarding Sandboxes and Modules:

I observed the same, sad habit of having pre-plotted "Adventure Paths" or whatnot. It started in the second half of the 80s and only got worse. To me it makes utterly no sense. But some people like it. So... there you go.

But, as another data point:

I've been running a Lamentations of the Flame Princess campaign on and off for about a year now (https://talestoastound.wordpress.com/tag/lamentations-of-the-flame-pricess/). I use a mix of the LotFP modules as well as situations and environments I build on my own. I lovethe LotFP books (The God That Crawls, Qelong, Death Frost Doom, and more). They have proven to be a blast. By definition there is no "right" way to play through them. They are wonderful situations and puzzles that can dealt with, explored, and run-away-from in any fashion the players wish. (The PCs recently solved a big problem at a zombie infested keep with a strange magical item they had found in another adventure months earlier. It was the players actions that had created the zombie-infestation in the first place, and I had completely forgotten about the magic item and never planned in any way for it to solve the problem.)

The basic setting is LotFP's default 17th Century Europe during the 30 Year War. But to bring in all the death cults, other dimensions, and more, I've established that there is a inter-dimensional battle between gods and realities being fought over earth by many factions. (Earth is rich in people -- and thus sacrifices!)

The Players (and their PCs) knew little this when the game began. But adventure by adventure they have found clues. I built rumors from the start. And then added clues for other adventures in each module specific to my campaign. The Player always chose what rumors and clues to follow up, which places to go next.

I have a thick stack of LotFP books, and when they tell me where they are going next, I pull one of the books off the shelf and prep. I tweak things as needed, and sew together elements from one module to the next in unique ways to make it all feel like its part of a whole. I never have any expectations what the Players/PCs will choose to do next, never guide them from one scenario to the next. (Carcosa has recently opened a rift in the sky and landed one end of a bridge in the middle of Europe. The player could have decided to flee to another reality on a dimension-hopping ship they found, or travel to a dangerous world which might have the mens of stopping the Carcosans. i really had no expectation. They could have gone either way.)

So, while this campaign might not meet everyone's definition of "sandbox" (it's a moving target of a term), I wanted to note that I'm running a game with modules in a manner entirely the opposite of what Gronan described and lamented in his post above. (But I'm able to do this because of the superb quality of the LotFP modules.)

Anyone here read the new Etherwalker: Silicon Covenant Series (https://www.amazon.com/Etherwalker-Book-One-Silicon-Covenant-ebook/dp/B015QJ7TYE?_bbid=2665184&tag=bookbubemailc-20)?
Looks like it could be useful for an alternate spin on EPT.
=

If a parent or grandparent picked up a copy of the original EPT boxed version at Goodwill or a garage sale, for their kid that liked those "Asian cartoon and video games", could the kid be interested to play it?
"Some kind of D&D retro-clone thing."
What would the games be like?
Do you think that the kid could get friends to play or would it be discarded as not Official/Supported?
=

Quote from: AsenRG;933124(I've lost track of the times I've seen people giving the advice to GMs that "if the players want to join the navy and not bother with your adventure, nothing happens until they get back on track". And I'm starting to lose track of the people who told me on forums that "being able to come up with adventures from an off-the-cuff decision of the players is a special skills not all GMs possess":D!)

Eh?, Not personally familiar, nor inclined to be familiar with either of these two groups. I'm teaching the young GMs to run their games sandbox style, so their players can feel like the world is an open space alive with possibilities. Always found that's one of the best way to run the game.

Also being able to turn the game on a dime and go in a completely new direction while keeping the both the plot and story coherent, and believable is the hallmark of a really good Gm.

Having no plot and no story, keeping them coherent is not a problem.

"Story" is what happened.  "Plot" is the idea that a particular person has.  People want things and move to get them.

All else is rubbish.

Quote from: Greentongue;940579If a parent or grandparent picked up a copy of the original EPT boxed version at Goodwill or a garage sale, for their kid that liked those "Asian cartoon and video games", could the kid be interested to play it?
"Some kind of D&D retro-clone thing."
What would the games be like?
Do you think that the kid could get friends to play or would it be discarded as not Official/Supported?
=

Ummm. Goodwill doesn't have any EPT or Tekumel for sale right now. These days they scan all their donations in, and sell it online in tandem with selling stuff in stores, you can get a pretty good idea of what is available in any goodwill store in the country. Some of these are auctions and may end up going for more;

https://www.goodwillbooks.com/catalogsearch/result/?f=Empire+of+the+Petal+Throne&q=of+the+Throne

No EPT or Tekumel. Did find a Holmes bluebox D&D set going for $19.85 this morning. It includes the original dice, B1, and a copy of Best of the Dragon, Vol I. $2 for shipping.  Some of these are auctions and may end up going for more;
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewitem.asp?itemid=36282154

$15 for a 3.0 Basic D&D Starter Kit, all the minis included
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/L022-A-Set-of-Dungeons--Dragons-Games-36229354.html


$20 Legend of Drizzt Boardgame
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewitem.asp?itemid=36160933


$8.95 plus shipping ...Some very rare out of print 3m games from the 70's
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Vintage-3M-Bookshelf-Games-36194933.html

$8.95 plus shipping for four boardgames
Castle Risk, Axis & Allies, Bermuda Triangle and Good Guys & Badguys
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewitem.asp?itemid=36279204

$10 plus shipping - Parker Bros. Camelot Board game from 1955
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/1955-Parker-Brothers-Camelot-Board-Game-36225240.html

$10 plus shipping SPI - Sniper (Looks Mint)
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Sniper-World-War-II-2-Historical-Simulation-Game-36176417.html

$5 plus shipping 1977 Version of Milton Bradley Stratego
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/IOB-1977-Milton-Bradley-Stratego-Board-Game-36172897.html

$10 Avalon Hill Tobruk
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Tobruk-Tank-Battles-in-North-Africa-1942-Game-36162044.html

$10 Avalon Hill Russian Campaign
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/The-Russian-Campaign-Game-36241505.html

$8 Avalon Hill Tactics II
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Tactics-II-Realistic-War-Game-36166391.html

$17 - 25 miniatures Reaper & Ral Partha, D&D Basic game, & The Ravenloft Book
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewitem.asp?itemid=36228809

$15 Warhammer game plus three books
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/3-pc-Warhammer-Books--Game-Armies-Undead--36209043.html

$6.99 Redbook 3.0 AD&D Set (Worth it for the maps alone)
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Dungeons--Dragons-Roleplaying-Game-Starter-Set-36204054.html

$5 Mutants & masterminds GM Screen
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Mutants--Masterminds-Gamemaster-Screen-36231424.html

$7.99 Talicor Redemption City Of Bondage Board Game
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Vintage-1987-TSR-Top-SecretSI-Board-Game-36222777.html

$10 Top Secret RPG from 1987, includes operation Starfire Adventure Module
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Vintage-1987-TSR-Top-SecretSI-Board-Game-36222777.html

$10 Avalon Hill Starship Trooper
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Robert-Heinleins-Starship-Troopers-Board-Game-36237071.html

$6.99 3.5 Monster Manual + Temple of Elemental Evil Adventure
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Dungeons--Dragons-Monster-Manual--More-36236460.html

$7.99 Lord of the Rings Tarot Deck
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-Tarot-Card-Deck-IOB-36279876.html

$5.95 Milton Bradley - Go Game
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/The-Authentic-Game-of-Go-Far-East-Board-Game-1951-36291535.html

$15 Twelve pounds of Marbles (Hey, Included this, just because! :). Shipping will probably be hefty on this.
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/12-POUNDS-of-Marbles-36291230.html

$15.99 Buy it Now - Parker Bros. Star Wars Death Assault Game (1995)
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/1995-Star-Wars-Death-Star-Assault-Game-36288397.html

$36.99 Rolemaster, +20+ additional D&D magazines and adventure modules
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/20-Vintage-Dungeons--Dragons-RP-Game-Magazines-36284653.html

$11.99 Lot of 7 Card/Board/RPG games (including Killer Bunny)
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Card--RPG--Board-Games-Lot-of-7-Xidit-36280388.html



..uumm No Petal Throne or Tekumel today at GoodWill. If it shows up, I'd bid on it though. Plenty of trading card game stuff too. Many of these old games go without a bid, and then end up (according to my local Goodwill) in a landfill. I check back every few weeks (as my budget allows) to see if something really good shows up.

Quote from: GameDaddy;940580Eh?, Not personally familiar, nor inclined to be familiar with either of these two groups.

Count yerself lucky!

QuoteI'm teaching the young GMs to run their games sandbox style, so their players can feel like the world is an open space alive with possibilities. Always found that's one of the best way to run the game.

Keep up the good work! I'm trying to do the same here.

QuoteAlso being able to turn the game on a dime and go in a completely new direction while keeping the both the plot and story coherent, and believable is the hallmark of a really good Gm

Some people consider that a lofty, unattainable ideal most GMs shouldn't strive for, unless they're gifted:).
I wish I was joking, here. But when I tell them it's easily achievable, some people seem to be having a cognitive shock of some kind;).

Quote from: AsenRG;940597-- Also being able to turn the game on a dime and go in a completely new direction while keeping the both the plot and story coherent, and believable is the hallmark of a really good Gm. --

Some people consider that a lofty, unattainable ideal most GMs shouldn't strive for, unless they're gifted:).
I wish I was joking, here. But when I tell them it's easily achievable, some people seem to be having a cognitive shock of some kind;).

I think this is due to the GM mapping out a KOOL PLOT before starting the game.
When the players want to go in some completely different direction, the GM has to try and come up with another elaborate PLOT that is just as KOOL.
Like changing channels on the TV to a new movie in the middle of the one you are watching.

It seems a lot of people have been conditioned to "color inside the lines" and need those lines.

May have been a problem with EPT?  No pre-existing modules to run and or re-image to the setting?
=

Quote from: Greentongue;940681I think this is due to the GM mapping out a KOOL PLOT before starting the game.
When the players want to go in some completely different direction, the GM has to try and come up with another elaborate PLOT that is just as KOOL.
Like changing channels on the TV to a new movie in the middle of the one you are watching.

Solution: ditch plots, default to NPC motivations:).

QuoteIt seems a lot of people have been conditioned to "color inside the lines" and need those lines.

May have been a problem with EPT? No pre-existing modules to run and or re-image to the setting?

And yeah, it might have been a problem for all I know.
But "Tekumel remained unappreciated because canned modules" is just another reason to ditch canned modules;).

Quote from: Greentongue;940681I think this is due to the GM mapping out a KOOL PLOT before starting the game.
When the players want to go in some completely different direction, the GM has to try and come up with another elaborate PLOT that is just as KOOL.

Take PLOT and hold its head under water until the bubbles stop coming up.  For more details see Post 223.

If you have a world full of people with motivations, plot is neither useful nor necessary.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940762Take PLOT and hold its head under water until the bubbles stop coming up.  For more details see Post 223.

If you have a world full of people with motivations, plot is neither useful nor necessary.

I'm finding all this quite fascinating. I thought that it was my job as the GM to have the world - the game setting - in place and ready to go, and to go in whatever direction the players took it in. Sure, Phil ran his world's meta-game - which I continue - and we played out our adventures against that backdrop. At no time did we not have a choice in what we wanted to do; it was the most open of open sandboxes, and our choices of careers made Phil's rage of options more defined and focussed. But it was up to us to make our choice from the range of things that his NPCs would offer us.

I find the idea of a 'pre-plotted' adventure very hard to grasp; never played that way, never GM'd that way.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;940773I find the idea of a 'pre-plotted' adventure very hard to grasp; never played that way, never GM'd that way.

I'm thinking that the idea of "modules" was just getting started at that time.

Now, it seems you need a few available for purchase if your rules are going to sell.

There certainly were none back when it was released.
As I recall you were expected to use your imagination and run with it.
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Quote from: Greentongue;940787I'm thinking that the idea of "modules" was just getting started at that time.

Now, it seems you need a few available for purchase if your rules are going to sell.

There certainly were none back when it was released.
As I recall you were expected to use your imagination and run with it.
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Oh, yes; I'd agree with that. I think it was why I was so astonished by the reaction of a couple of 'new' players when I ran some game sessions for them and they told me that I was being 'railroady'; I had an answer for the ideas that they threw out in the game, based on my time in Tekumel, and they assumed that I was making the answers up to keep them on some sort of unknown path / plot that I had in mind. I explained about 'free Kriegspiel' and 'open sandbox', and also pointed out how many years I had been hip-deep in Tekumel, and they simply could not imagine that I was not working from s script / module / something - that the GM's NPCs were, in effect, a 'live opponent'. It turned out, I discovered, they they had had no experience with the kind of gaming that I am used to; all they knew was 'one-shots' based off of modules. No meta-gaming, none of the kind of thing that Groan talks about.

And that they expected to be able to buy the published module / adventure, so they could study it in advance of the game session(s) and work out the logic tree so that they could 'win' in the shortest possible time...

Nearly pulled the yellow- and black-striped handle, but I keep trying...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;940773I'm finding all this quite fascinating. I thought that it was my job as the GM to have the world - the game setting - in place and ready to go, and to go in whatever direction the players took it in. Sure, Phil ran his world's meta-game - which I continue - and we played out our adventures against that backdrop. At no time did we not have a choice in what we wanted to do; it was the most open of open sandboxes, and our choices of careers made Phil's rage of options more defined and focussed. But it was up to us to make our choice from the range of things that his NPCs would offer us.

I find the idea of a 'pre-plotted' adventure very hard to grasp; never played that way, never GM'd that way.

When I was starting, modules were unavailable for financial reasons.
Years later, I tried to GM that way just to see what people are talking about. To this day, I've seen less than 10 modules that my players didn't rate as "garbage", all of them in either Runequest/Mythras, or Fates Worse Than Death RPG (and a single OSR module).
And they are more work for me as GM.

Thus I've concluded that I'm better off staying away from most modules.
(Though I want to get someone to run Maze of the Blue Medusa for me, just so I could see first hand what the hype is about).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;940792Oh, yes; I'd agree with that. I think it was why I was so astonished by the reaction of a couple of 'new' players when I ran some game sessions for them and they told me that I was being 'railroady'; I had an answer for the ideas that they threw out in the game, based on my time in Tekumel, and they assumed that I was making the answers up to keep them on some sort of unknown path / plot that I had in mind. I explained about 'free Kriegspiel' and 'open sandbox', and also pointed out how many years I had been hip-deep in Tekumel, and they simply could not imagine that I was not working from s script / module / something - that the GM's NPCs were, in effect, a 'live opponent'. It turned out, I discovered, they they had had no experience with the kind of gaming that I am used to; all they knew was 'one-shots' based off of modules. No meta-gaming, none of the kind of thing that Groan talks about.

And that they expected to be able to buy the published module / adventure, so they could study it in advance of the game session(s) and work out the logic tree so that they could 'win' in the shortest possible time...

Nearly pulled the yellow- and black-striped handle, but I keep trying...

Well, this is considered "bad taste" among people who like modules, AFAIK.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;940792Oh, yes; I'd agree with that. I think it was why I was so astonished by the reaction of a couple of 'new' players when I ran some game sessions for them and they told me that I was being 'railroady'; I had an answer for the ideas that they threw out in the game, based on my time in Tekumel, and they assumed that I was making the answers up to keep them on some sort of unknown path / plot that I had in mind. I explained about 'free Kriegspiel' and 'open sandbox', and also pointed out how many years I had been hip-deep in Tekumel, and they simply could not imagine that I was not working from s script / module / something - that the GM's NPCs were, in effect, a 'live opponent'. It turned out, I discovered, they they had had no experience with the kind of gaming that I am used to; all they knew was 'one-shots' based off of modules. No meta-gaming, none of the kind of thing that Groan talks about.

And that they expected to be able to buy the published module / adventure, so they could study it in advance of the game session(s) and work out the logic tree so that they could 'win' in the shortest possible time...

Nearly pulled the yellow- and black-striped handle, but I keep trying...

This is one of the craziest things I've read, but it explains a lot. The idea that players should be able to study a module so they can successfully complete it and "win," whatever that means, doesn't make sense. It's kind of like picking up a novel and reading the ending first. What's the point? I don't get it, and the whole idea of using a commercial module seems kind of weird to me. :confused:

Shemek

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940762Take PLOT and hold its head under water until the bubbles stop coming up.  For more details see Post 223.

If you have a world full of people with motivations, plot is neither useful nor necessary.

Post 224, not 223.  D'oh.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;940868This is one of the craziest things I've read, but it explains a lot. The idea that players should be able to study a module so they can successfully complete it and "win," whatever that means, doesn't make sense. It's kind of like picking up a novel and reading the ending first. What's the point? I don't get it, and the whole idea of using a commercial module seems kind of weird to me. :confused:

Shemek

That's how "end game content" works in games like World of Warcraft, though.  There is a race to be first to "solve" new content, and then the solution is posted on the Web, and people read up how to beat the "raid" before they go in.

Drives me nuts.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;940868This is one of the craziest things I've read, but it explains a lot. The idea that players should be able to study a module so they can successfully complete it and "win," whatever that means, doesn't make sense. It's kind of like picking up a novel and reading the ending first. What's the point? I don't get it, and the whole idea of using a commercial module seems kind of weird to me. :confused:

Shemek

As  trivial as it sounds, the point is that people don't like losing, and the appearence of accomplishment is good enough for many if they can get it without work. And thinking counts as work for many:).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940933That's how "end game content" works in games like World of Warcraft, though.  There is a race to be first to "solve" new content, and then the solution is posted on the Web, and people read up how to beat the "raid" before they go in.

Drives me nuts.

Which is yet another reason to go for a sandbox style, because doing the same with a sandbox GM requires OOC telepathy;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940933That's how "end game content" works in games like World of Warcraft, though.  There is a race to be first to "solve" new content, and then the solution is posted on the Web, and people read up how to beat the "raid" before they go in.

Drives me nuts.

I've never played any of these types of video games so I find it hard to relate to this mind set. I would be really cheesed off if any of my players had this attitude.

Shemek

Quote from: AsenRG;940934As  trivial as it sounds, the point is that people don't like losing, and the appearence of accomplishment is good enough for many if they can get it without work. And thinking counts as work for many:).

Which is yet another reason to go for a sandbox style, because doing the same with a sandbox GM requires OOC telepathy;).

Anyone with this type of attitude would quickly find my gaming table very unsympathetic and unwelcoming. Don't get me wrong. I've purchased modules over the years, but never to actually run the party through it. They have always been used by me as a source for ideas, and as a means of augmenting the ones I created.
I also prefer the sandbox style for sure, but have also been railroady in the past, on occasion :o.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;941088Anyone with this type of attitude would quickly find my gaming table very unsympathetic and unwelcoming. Don't get me wrong. I've purchased modules over the years, but never to actually run the party through it. They have always been used by me as a source for ideas, and as a means of augmenting the ones I created.
I also prefer the sandbox style for sure, but have also been railroady in the past, on occasion :o.

People with this attitude have told me that they find my table not to their taste (though not unwelcoming). I'm trying to be welcoming, and am redirecting them to GMs with a more, how to put it, guiding style:).

I've actually used modules several times - a couple times, in order to try how that thing works. After that period, it was always as part of a playtest (I've helped with the playtest of several games, though a couple of them are unlikely to get finished). I don't know if it was always useful, though, because on at least one occasion, the main mission in the module was resolved in 10 minutes of play with no fighting or even negotiations. I can tell you, the report I was sending to the author was kinda interesting to write:D!

At least that was one of the good modules that don't restrain you to a single path. So I just doled out the XP, and continued with the regular campaign, sandbox-style. And it actually helped the PC get a "street rep", so the campaign was easier from then on;).

With this talk about Sandbox, how much setting details do/did you make up yourself and how much do/did you pull from "official" sources?

When starting from the original source do/did you feel that you can/could build whatever you want on top of the given basics?

Do/did you feel that you had to start as a foreigner washed ashore or could you start on the life boat from your sunken starship?
(Planet of the Apes style)
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Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940933That's how "end game content" works in games like World of Warcraft, though.  There is a race to be first to "solve" new content, and then the solution is posted on the Web, and people read up how to beat the "raid" before they go in.

Drives me nuts.

End-game raids in MMO don't really work like that, though. At least not on those games which offer decently high difficulty levels.

It is true that you need to figure out the tactic needed to kill the boss, but that part is usually over in the first few tries. Might be a couple dozen if it's something really involved.
The remaining *hundreds* of tries will be spent perfecting the execution of the tactic so discovered, as you need everyone in the group to have nearly perfect coordination for the attempt to succeed.

The race to be first is simply a prestige thing.

Walktroughs for games are a thing, though, regardless of whether we're talking MMOs or other genres;).

Quote from: Greentongue;941164With this talk about Sandbox, how much setting details do/did you make up yourself and how much do/did you pull from "official" sources?

When starting from the original source do/did you feel that you can/could build whatever you want on top of the given basics?

Yes, once I felt I understood the source material. It seemed unapproachable until I understood that I should be looking at Indian, Mayan, and southeast Asian sources. Then I felt I could improvise details while keeping the exotic feel.

I'd missed that post:).

Quote from: Greentongue;941164With this talk about Sandbox, how much setting details do/did you make up yourself and how much do/did you pull from "official" sources?

It seems to me, and aplogies if I'm mistaken, that you're thinking of "setting details" as a zero-sum game. If I make something up, I'm not using the "official" sources.
It's not a zero-sum game, though. The more details I get from "official" sources, the more details I can think of on myself.
I see a description of ku'ur and its effects, and mentally apend "and there should be analogues of some syntethic drugs...maybe even Eyes that produce them out of raw materials, or Eyes that cure the dependency".

QuoteWhen starting from the original source do/did you feel that you can/could build whatever you want on top of the given basics?

That's the whole point of it:D!
I mean, why would I want to run someone else's setting verbatim?

QuoteDo/did you feel that you had to start as a foreigner washed ashore or could you start on the life boat from your sunken starship?
(Planet of the Apes style)

I'd prefer starting as a local, thank you;)! Always worked better for me, and it seems to have worked just fine for some Chirine ba Kal as well!

Quote from: AsenRG;941597I'd prefer starting as a local, thank you;)! Always worked better for me, and it seems to have worked just fine for some Chirine ba Kal as well!

But have you ever tried playing a "Planet of the Apes" style game with Tekumel?

You are "Silver Suits" but things have gone horribly wrong.
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Quote from: Greentongue;941633But have you ever tried playing a "Planet of the Apes" style game with Tekumel?

You are "Silver Suits" but things have gone horribly wrong.
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That sounds fun. I wonder, would you allow the players to take magic users and priests if you went this route? Unless I am mistaken I believe Chirine said that the Silver Suits might be some type of space marine from the humanspace empire(s) time space continuum, and that the Nluss were descendants of the original space marines that garrisoned Tekumel before the time of darkness. Would the party then be an all Nluss one? This has gotten me intrigued. I might have to try this out some day.

Shemek.

Quote from: Greentongue;941633But have you ever tried playing a "Planet of the Apes" style game with Tekumel?

You are "Silver Suits" but things have gone horribly wrong.
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I am one of the few people on this board who never watched "Planet of the Apes":).
If you're asking "a game with PCs not from Tekumel", that's the Tekumel game I am running now. The PC that brings the others around (by virtue of the player being the most proactive one) is an Earth woman from Russia, who once discovered she has the gift for becoming a volhva (vlahva, and a slew of other pronunciations). Their main power is to walk between the dimensions, and acquire other powers there.

She came to Tekumel to gather power to overthrow the Wolf President, but really liked the place and the people. And since being from another dimension makes her a demon by Tekumeli standards, she got included in the pantheon of a Livyanu deity;).

Adventure Modules became a successful way to turn tabletop RPGs into a consumer-friendly mode of entertainment. Most people will NEVER work for their entertainment, so it is not surprising that forms of entertainment that take all of the bitchwork out of it get popular and those that don't remain niche. Adventure modules went down this road, until now we get entire 1-20 campaigns in a book or box; drop $60+ dollars, have a campaign that (for most) is entirely on rails that lasts a year or so at expected paces of play.

Even at $100 apiece, that's a steal, and historically they've gone for much, much less. Gronan's comparison to videogame RPGs is not at all inaccurate: that IS the goal, to make running a tabletop RPG as similar to what you can get on console or PC (or, for some, a boardgame) as you can get while allowing players have their Just So PCs that fulfill whatever fantasies they've got (and the modules allow) at the time. Mastery of the game, in this environment, means mastery of the rules; this is where Denners come from.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;941885Adventure Modules became a successful way to turn tabletop RPGs into a consumer-friendly mode of entertainment. Most people will NEVER work for their entertainment, so it is not surprising that forms of entertainment that take all of the bitchwork out of it get popular and those that don't remain niche. Adventure modules went down this road, until now we get entire 1-20 campaigns in a book or box; drop $60+ dollars, have a campaign that (for most) is entirely on rails that lasts a year or so at expected paces of play.

Even at $100 apiece, that's a steal, and historically they've gone for much, much less. Gronan's comparison to videogame RPGs is not at all inaccurate: that IS the goal, to make running a tabletop RPG as similar to what you can get on console or PC (or, for some, a boardgame) as you can get while allowing players have their Just So PCs that fulfill whatever fantasies they've got (and the modules allow) at the time. Mastery of the game, in this environment, means mastery of the rules; this is where Denners come from.

Yeah, the only thing I don't understand is why not replace the PCs and the GM, and the whole logistical mess, with a PS4 and no logistics.

Quote from: AsenRG;941901Yeah, the only thing I don't understand is why not replace the PCs and the GM, and the whole logistical mess, with a PS4 and no logistics.

Lots of people did do that. It's one of the reasons for the commercial decline of tabletop RPGs as a business; they choose business models that try to ape competing media and end up arguing for the superiority of those media by example, instead of focusing on the strengths of tabletop as a medium (starting with the Game Master), and wonder why they're lucky if they can make livings equal to a manager at McDonald's.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;941904Lots of people did do that. It's one of the reasons for the commercial decline of tabletop RPGs as a business; they choose business models that try to ape competing media and end up arguing for the superiority of those media by example, instead of focusing on the strengths of tabletop as a medium (starting with the Game Master), and wonder why they're lucky if they can make livings equal to a manager at McDonald's.

That's what I wanted to hear, but didn't want to say it myself, frankly:).
And that is exactly why I believe that playing a tabletop campaign that doesn't have complete freedom of actions is a waste of time, since you can get a limited experience from any console.

And being able to play with GMs that allow complete freedom is why I only use my PS4 for games that require reflexes or are just a strategic exercise;).

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;941674That sounds fun. I wonder, would you allow the players to take magic users and priests if you went this route? Unless I am mistaken I believe Chirine said that the Silver Suits might be some type of space marine from the humanspace empire(s) time space continuum, and that the Nluss were descendants of the original space marines that garrisoned Tekumel before the time of darkness. Would the party then be an all Nluss one? This has gotten me intrigued. I might have to try this out some day.

Shemek.

These details were not provided in the original rules so, I see no reason that a player could not be given a "Skill Overlay" as part of a "Survival Kit" for crashes on low tech worlds.
"Earmuffs of Knowledge" as the natives might call them. ;)  At "Level 1" they wouldn't be expected to know everything.
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Just saw the movie The Great Wall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Wall_(film)) and it looked like a great source of gaming to me.
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Quote from: Greentongue;949230Just saw the movie The Great Wall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Wall_(film)) and it looked like a great source of gaming to me.
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Agreed. Lots of reviewers seem to miss the subtle Chinese viewpoint, which is also the Tsolyani one of: "There are nasty monsters out there, so send out the foreigner barbarian mercenary to deal with them. He's expendable, after all." Mayhem ensues.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;949796Agreed. Lots of reviewers seem to miss the subtle Chinese viewpoint, which is also the Tsolyani one of: "There are nasty monsters out there, so send out the foreigner barbarian mercenary to deal with them. He's expendable, after all." Mayhem ensues.

Funny, isn't it, that it's also the modern corporate viewpoint in cyberpunk games?