Quote from: Greentongue;940681I think this is due to the GM mapping out a KOOL PLOT before starting the game.
When the players want to go in some completely different direction, the GM has to try and come up with another elaborate PLOT that is just as KOOL.

Take PLOT and hold its head under water until the bubbles stop coming up.  For more details see Post 223.

If you have a world full of people with motivations, plot is neither useful nor necessary.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940762Take PLOT and hold its head under water until the bubbles stop coming up.  For more details see Post 223.

If you have a world full of people with motivations, plot is neither useful nor necessary.

I'm finding all this quite fascinating. I thought that it was my job as the GM to have the world - the game setting - in place and ready to go, and to go in whatever direction the players took it in. Sure, Phil ran his world's meta-game - which I continue - and we played out our adventures against that backdrop. At no time did we not have a choice in what we wanted to do; it was the most open of open sandboxes, and our choices of careers made Phil's rage of options more defined and focussed. But it was up to us to make our choice from the range of things that his NPCs would offer us.

I find the idea of a 'pre-plotted' adventure very hard to grasp; never played that way, never GM'd that way.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;940773I find the idea of a 'pre-plotted' adventure very hard to grasp; never played that way, never GM'd that way.

I'm thinking that the idea of "modules" was just getting started at that time.

Now, it seems you need a few available for purchase if your rules are going to sell.

There certainly were none back when it was released.
As I recall you were expected to use your imagination and run with it.
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Quote from: Greentongue;940787I'm thinking that the idea of "modules" was just getting started at that time.

Now, it seems you need a few available for purchase if your rules are going to sell.

There certainly were none back when it was released.
As I recall you were expected to use your imagination and run with it.
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Oh, yes; I'd agree with that. I think it was why I was so astonished by the reaction of a couple of 'new' players when I ran some game sessions for them and they told me that I was being 'railroady'; I had an answer for the ideas that they threw out in the game, based on my time in Tekumel, and they assumed that I was making the answers up to keep them on some sort of unknown path / plot that I had in mind. I explained about 'free Kriegspiel' and 'open sandbox', and also pointed out how many years I had been hip-deep in Tekumel, and they simply could not imagine that I was not working from s script / module / something - that the GM's NPCs were, in effect, a 'live opponent'. It turned out, I discovered, they they had had no experience with the kind of gaming that I am used to; all they knew was 'one-shots' based off of modules. No meta-gaming, none of the kind of thing that Groan talks about.

And that they expected to be able to buy the published module / adventure, so they could study it in advance of the game session(s) and work out the logic tree so that they could 'win' in the shortest possible time...

Nearly pulled the yellow- and black-striped handle, but I keep trying...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;940773I'm finding all this quite fascinating. I thought that it was my job as the GM to have the world - the game setting - in place and ready to go, and to go in whatever direction the players took it in. Sure, Phil ran his world's meta-game - which I continue - and we played out our adventures against that backdrop. At no time did we not have a choice in what we wanted to do; it was the most open of open sandboxes, and our choices of careers made Phil's rage of options more defined and focussed. But it was up to us to make our choice from the range of things that his NPCs would offer us.

I find the idea of a 'pre-plotted' adventure very hard to grasp; never played that way, never GM'd that way.

When I was starting, modules were unavailable for financial reasons.
Years later, I tried to GM that way just to see what people are talking about. To this day, I've seen less than 10 modules that my players didn't rate as "garbage", all of them in either Runequest/Mythras, or Fates Worse Than Death RPG (and a single OSR module).
And they are more work for me as GM.

Thus I've concluded that I'm better off staying away from most modules.
(Though I want to get someone to run Maze of the Blue Medusa for me, just so I could see first hand what the hype is about).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;940792Oh, yes; I'd agree with that. I think it was why I was so astonished by the reaction of a couple of 'new' players when I ran some game sessions for them and they told me that I was being 'railroady'; I had an answer for the ideas that they threw out in the game, based on my time in Tekumel, and they assumed that I was making the answers up to keep them on some sort of unknown path / plot that I had in mind. I explained about 'free Kriegspiel' and 'open sandbox', and also pointed out how many years I had been hip-deep in Tekumel, and they simply could not imagine that I was not working from s script / module / something - that the GM's NPCs were, in effect, a 'live opponent'. It turned out, I discovered, they they had had no experience with the kind of gaming that I am used to; all they knew was 'one-shots' based off of modules. No meta-gaming, none of the kind of thing that Groan talks about.

And that they expected to be able to buy the published module / adventure, so they could study it in advance of the game session(s) and work out the logic tree so that they could 'win' in the shortest possible time...

Nearly pulled the yellow- and black-striped handle, but I keep trying...

Well, this is considered "bad taste" among people who like modules, AFAIK.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;940792Oh, yes; I'd agree with that. I think it was why I was so astonished by the reaction of a couple of 'new' players when I ran some game sessions for them and they told me that I was being 'railroady'; I had an answer for the ideas that they threw out in the game, based on my time in Tekumel, and they assumed that I was making the answers up to keep them on some sort of unknown path / plot that I had in mind. I explained about 'free Kriegspiel' and 'open sandbox', and also pointed out how many years I had been hip-deep in Tekumel, and they simply could not imagine that I was not working from s script / module / something - that the GM's NPCs were, in effect, a 'live opponent'. It turned out, I discovered, they they had had no experience with the kind of gaming that I am used to; all they knew was 'one-shots' based off of modules. No meta-gaming, none of the kind of thing that Groan talks about.

And that they expected to be able to buy the published module / adventure, so they could study it in advance of the game session(s) and work out the logic tree so that they could 'win' in the shortest possible time...

Nearly pulled the yellow- and black-striped handle, but I keep trying...

This is one of the craziest things I've read, but it explains a lot. The idea that players should be able to study a module so they can successfully complete it and "win," whatever that means, doesn't make sense. It's kind of like picking up a novel and reading the ending first. What's the point? I don't get it, and the whole idea of using a commercial module seems kind of weird to me. :confused:

Shemek

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940762Take PLOT and hold its head under water until the bubbles stop coming up.  For more details see Post 223.

If you have a world full of people with motivations, plot is neither useful nor necessary.

Post 224, not 223.  D'oh.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;940868This is one of the craziest things I've read, but it explains a lot. The idea that players should be able to study a module so they can successfully complete it and "win," whatever that means, doesn't make sense. It's kind of like picking up a novel and reading the ending first. What's the point? I don't get it, and the whole idea of using a commercial module seems kind of weird to me. :confused:

Shemek

That's how "end game content" works in games like World of Warcraft, though.  There is a race to be first to "solve" new content, and then the solution is posted on the Web, and people read up how to beat the "raid" before they go in.

Drives me nuts.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;940868This is one of the craziest things I've read, but it explains a lot. The idea that players should be able to study a module so they can successfully complete it and "win," whatever that means, doesn't make sense. It's kind of like picking up a novel and reading the ending first. What's the point? I don't get it, and the whole idea of using a commercial module seems kind of weird to me. :confused:

Shemek

As  trivial as it sounds, the point is that people don't like losing, and the appearence of accomplishment is good enough for many if they can get it without work. And thinking counts as work for many:).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940933That's how "end game content" works in games like World of Warcraft, though.  There is a race to be first to "solve" new content, and then the solution is posted on the Web, and people read up how to beat the "raid" before they go in.

Drives me nuts.

Which is yet another reason to go for a sandbox style, because doing the same with a sandbox GM requires OOC telepathy;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940933That's how "end game content" works in games like World of Warcraft, though.  There is a race to be first to "solve" new content, and then the solution is posted on the Web, and people read up how to beat the "raid" before they go in.

Drives me nuts.

I've never played any of these types of video games so I find it hard to relate to this mind set. I would be really cheesed off if any of my players had this attitude.

Shemek

Quote from: AsenRG;940934As  trivial as it sounds, the point is that people don't like losing, and the appearence of accomplishment is good enough for many if they can get it without work. And thinking counts as work for many:).

Which is yet another reason to go for a sandbox style, because doing the same with a sandbox GM requires OOC telepathy;).

Anyone with this type of attitude would quickly find my gaming table very unsympathetic and unwelcoming. Don't get me wrong. I've purchased modules over the years, but never to actually run the party through it. They have always been used by me as a source for ideas, and as a means of augmenting the ones I created.
I also prefer the sandbox style for sure, but have also been railroady in the past, on occasion .

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;941088Anyone with this type of attitude would quickly find my gaming table very unsympathetic and unwelcoming. Don't get me wrong. I've purchased modules over the years, but never to actually run the party through it. They have always been used by me as a source for ideas, and as a means of augmenting the ones I created.
I also prefer the sandbox style for sure, but have also been railroady in the past, on occasion .

People with this attitude have told me that they find my table not to their taste (though not unwelcoming). I'm trying to be welcoming, and am redirecting them to GMs with a more, how to put it, guiding style:).

I've actually used modules several times - a couple times, in order to try how that thing works. After that period, it was always as part of a playtest (I've helped with the playtest of several games, though a couple of them are unlikely to get finished). I don't know if it was always useful, though, because on at least one occasion, the main mission in the module was resolved in 10 minutes of play with no fighting or even negotiations. I can tell you, the report I was sending to the author was kinda interesting to write:D!

At least that was one of the good modules that don't restrain you to a single path. So I just doled out the XP, and continued with the regular campaign, sandbox-style. And it actually helped the PC get a "street rep", so the campaign was easier from then on;).

With this talk about Sandbox, how much setting details do/did you make up yourself and how much do/did you pull from "official" sources?

When starting from the original source do/did you feel that you can/could build whatever you want on top of the given basics?

Do/did you feel that you had to start as a foreigner washed ashore or could you start on the life boat from your sunken starship?
(Planet of the Apes style)
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Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940933That's how "end game content" works in games like World of Warcraft, though.  There is a race to be first to "solve" new content, and then the solution is posted on the Web, and people read up how to beat the "raid" before they go in.

Drives me nuts.

End-game raids in MMO don't really work like that, though. At least not on those games which offer decently high difficulty levels.

It is true that you need to figure out the tactic needed to kill the boss, but that part is usually over in the first few tries. Might be a couple dozen if it's something really involved.
The remaining *hundreds* of tries will be spent perfecting the execution of the tactic so discovered, as you need everyone in the group to have nearly perfect coordination for the attempt to succeed.

The race to be first is simply a prestige thing.

Walktroughs for games are a thing, though, regardless of whether we're talking MMOs or other genres;).