Let's Talk About EPT

Greentongue · December 02, 2016, 06:45:00 AM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933410But most people would rather bitch than play, and that hasn't changed.

Nailed it in one.

As you play you can introduce things that are unique. If you don't play, it is a lot harder to do that.
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Gronan of Simmerya · December 03, 2016, 03:16:50 PM

Quote from: AsenRG;933226Half the chess players in my high school class were able to play chess without looking, do you mean to imply I was studying in Supers High:D?

My high school had 1000 students.

I'd be surprised if more than 50 of them even knew the rules to chess.

Gronan of Simmerya · December 03, 2016, 03:26:09 PM

Quote from: chirine ba kal;933125Dear God. And here, for all these years, I thought that that was the way to play. The GM created a world, and we fooled around in it.

Well, firstly, playing modules is now the overwhelmingly prevalent way to play.

Secondly, modules have changed. Once upon a time, a module was a self contained adventure that you could plop down in your world. Then... starting with "Dragonlance," I believe, but I could be wrong... modules became "story" oriented, and a whole series of modules would be run one after another.

Now this trend has continued to where you have "campaign kits," or as Pathfinder calls them "adventure paths." I personally call them "Sausage inna Bun." (You really MUST read Discworld.) You buy one of these and proceed to barf out a year or so worth of adventures. I've played a couple because out here in Buttfuck South Dakota it's that or nothing. The chaps I play with are decent enough, but the adventures are trite and predictable to the point of tears. They start you out and lead the referee and players alike by the hand through their series of pre-scripted "adventures". The possibility of doing anything that isn't in the book doesn't even exist. It's like running a computer game at the table top, with the same "if the programmer didn't think of it you can't do it" aspect.

And if you started gaming after about 1995 or so, this is quite literally all you know how to do. I've seen and heard from a myriad of younger players who just simply have no concept of how to proceed if a mysterious stranger does not sidle up to them in an inn and say "I understand you undertake quests."

If you took somebody who'd never even seen a boat before and tossed them in a catboat and said "sail," I imagine you'd get a similar effect.

AsenRG · December 03, 2016, 04:37:56 PM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933620My high school had 1000 students.

I'd be surprised if more than 50 of them even knew the rules to chess.

Really? Wow, I didn't even imagine that:)!

(My high school had, and has, about the same number, but I'd be really surprised if at least 80% of them wouldn't know at least the rules. Once I brought a magnetic chess, there were maybe three people in a class of 30+ that didn't know them at all.
Knowing the rules didn't make you "a chess player", though, only playing it for fun in your free time. Most guys that counted as "chess players" were able to play blind. Once we continued playing during the lesson, and since the teacher was one of the strict ones, we only communicated the moves while pretending to listen;)).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933622Well, firstly, playing modules is now the overwhelmingly prevalent way to play.

Secondly, modules have changed. Once upon a time, a module was a self contained adventure that you could plop down in your world. Then... starting with "Dragonlance," I believe, but I could be wrong... modules became "story" oriented, and a whole series of modules would be run one after another.

Now this trend has continued to where you have "campaign kits," or as Pathfinder calls them "adventure paths." I personally call them "Sausage inna Bun." (You really MUST read Discworld.) You buy one of these and proceed to barf out a year or so worth of adventures. I've played a couple because out here in Buttfuck South Dakota it's that or nothing. The chaps I play with are decent enough, but the adventures are trite and predictable to the point of tears. They start you out and lead the referee and players alike by the hand through their series of pre-scripted "adventures". The possibility of doing anything that isn't in the book doesn't even exist. It's like running a computer game at the table top, with the same "if the programmer didn't think of it you can't do it" aspect.

And if you started gaming after about 1995 or so, this is quite literally all you know how to do. I've seen and heard from a myriad of younger players who just simply have no concept of how to proceed if a mysterious stranger does not sidle up to them in an inn and say "I understand you undertake quests."

If you took somebody who'd never even seen a boat before and tossed them in a catboat and said "sail," I imagine you'd get a similar effect.

I started gaming in 1999 and I confirm this message. Though I must note that some people started running a "here's a world, run through it" game in 2003 and later, and I must add proudly that I've been among the pioneers of that style here:D!

chirine ba kal · December 04, 2016, 05:21:50 AM

Ah. So much is explained. This all fits in what what I've observed at the FLGS when I watch people play.

Hermes Serpent · December 04, 2016, 06:25:57 AM

TBH I rather think we've entered a new Dark Ages where the ability to actually think is not taught or even indulged in. Almost every young person (under about 35) seem to think that they deserve to be entertained and if it doesn't match the push button and win system of playing video rpg games on the computer they have issues playing and certainly can't fathom using their own initiative to decide how to play. If it's isn't "I hit it with my axe" they are lost.

christopherkubasik · December 04, 2016, 12:36:47 PM

Regarding Sandboxes and Modules:

I observed the same, sad habit of having pre-plotted "Adventure Paths" or whatnot. It started in the second half of the 80s and only got worse. To me it makes utterly no sense. But some people like it. So... there you go.

But, as another data point:

I've been running a Lamentations of the Flame Princess campaign on and off for about a year now. I use a mix of the LotFP modules as well as situations and environments I build on my own. I lovethe LotFP books (The God That Crawls, Qelong, Death Frost Doom, and more). They have proven to be a blast. By definition there is no "right" way to play through them. They are wonderful situations and puzzles that can dealt with, explored, and run-away-from in any fashion the players wish. (The PCs recently solved a big problem at a zombie infested keep with a strange magical item they had found in another adventure months earlier. It was the players actions that had created the zombie-infestation in the first place, and I had completely forgotten about the magic item and never planned in any way for it to solve the problem.)

The basic setting is LotFP's default 17th Century Europe during the 30 Year War. But to bring in all the death cults, other dimensions, and more, I've established that there is a inter-dimensional battle between gods and realities being fought over earth by many factions. (Earth is rich in people -- and thus sacrifices!)

The Players (and their PCs) knew little this when the game began. But adventure by adventure they have found clues. I built rumors from the start. And then added clues for other adventures in each module specific to my campaign. The Player always chose what rumors and clues to follow up, which places to go next.

I have a thick stack of LotFP books, and when they tell me where they are going next, I pull one of the books off the shelf and prep. I tweak things as needed, and sew together elements from one module to the next in unique ways to make it all feel like its part of a whole. I never have any expectations what the Players/PCs will choose to do next, never guide them from one scenario to the next. (Carcosa has recently opened a rift in the sky and landed one end of a bridge in the middle of Europe. The player could have decided to flee to another reality on a dimension-hopping ship they found, or travel to a dangerous world which might have the mens of stopping the Carcosans. i really had no expectation. They could have gone either way.)

So, while this campaign might not meet everyone's definition of "sandbox" (it's a moving target of a term), I wanted to note that I'm running a game with modules in a manner entirely the opposite of what Gronan described and lamented in his post above. (But I'm able to do this because of the superb quality of the LotFP modules.)

Greentongue · January 12, 2017, 06:35:46 PM

Anyone here read the new Etherwalker: Silicon Covenant Series?
Looks like it could be useful for an alternate spin on EPT.
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Greentongue · January 14, 2017, 01:29:26 PM

If a parent or grandparent picked up a copy of the original EPT boxed version at Goodwill or a garage sale, for their kid that liked those "Asian cartoon and video games", could the kid be interested to play it?
"Some kind of D&D retro-clone thing."
What would the games be like?
Do you think that the kid could get friends to play or would it be discarded as not Official/Supported?
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GameDaddy · January 14, 2017, 02:04:48 PM

Quote from: AsenRG;933124(I've lost track of the times I've seen people giving the advice to GMs that "if the players want to join the navy and not bother with your adventure, nothing happens until they get back on track". And I'm starting to lose track of the people who told me on forums that "being able to come up with adventures from an off-the-cuff decision of the players is a special skills not all GMs possess"!)

Eh?, Not personally familiar, nor inclined to be familiar with either of these two groups. I'm teaching the young GMs to run their games sandbox style, so their players can feel like the world is an open space alive with possibilities. Always found that's one of the best way to run the game.

Also being able to turn the game on a dime and go in a completely new direction while keeping the both the plot and story coherent, and believable is the hallmark of a really good Gm.

Gronan of Simmerya · January 14, 2017, 02:32:18 PM

Having no plot and no story, keeping them coherent is not a problem.

"Story" is what happened. "Plot" is the idea that a particular person has. People want things and move to get them.

All else is rubbish.

GameDaddy · January 14, 2017, 03:00:51 PM

Quote from: Greentongue;940579If a parent or grandparent picked up a copy of the original EPT boxed version at Goodwill or a garage sale, for their kid that liked those "Asian cartoon and video games", could the kid be interested to play it?
"Some kind of D&D retro-clone thing."
What would the games be like?
Do you think that the kid could get friends to play or would it be discarded as not Official/Supported?
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. Shipping will probably be hefty on this.
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/12-POUNDS-of-Marbles-36291230.html

$15.99 Buy it Now - Parker Bros. Star Wars Death Assault Game (1995)
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/1995-Star-Wars-Death-Star-Assault-Game-36288397.html

$36.99 Rolemaster, +20+ additional D&D magazines and adventure modules
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/20-Vintage-Dungeons--Dragons-RP-Game-Magazines-36284653.html

$11.99 Lot of 7 Card/Board/RPG games (including Killer Bunny)
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Card--RPG--Board-Games-Lot-of-7-Xidit-36280388.html

..uumm No Petal Throne or Tekumel today at GoodWill. If it shows up, I'd bid on it though. Plenty of trading card game stuff too. Many of these old games go without a bid, and then end up (according to my local Goodwill) in a landfill. I check back every few weeks (as my budget allows) to see if something really good shows up.

AsenRG · January 14, 2017, 05:16:48 PM

Quote from: GameDaddy;940580Eh?, Not personally familiar, nor inclined to be familiar with either of these two groups.

Count yerself lucky!

QuoteI'm teaching the young GMs to run their games sandbox style, so their players can feel like the world is an open space alive with possibilities. Always found that's one of the best way to run the game.

Keep up the good work! I'm trying to do the same here.

QuoteAlso being able to turn the game on a dime and go in a completely new direction while keeping the both the plot and story coherent, and believable is the hallmark of a really good Gm

Some people consider that a lofty, unattainable ideal most GMs shouldn't strive for, unless they're gifted:).
I wish I was joking, here. But when I tell them it's easily achievable, some people seem to be having a cognitive shock of some kind;).

Greentongue · January 15, 2017, 08:45:39 AM

Quote from: AsenRG;940597-- Also being able to turn the game on a dime and go in a completely new direction while keeping the both the plot and story coherent, and believable is the hallmark of a really good Gm. --

Some people consider that a lofty, unattainable ideal most GMs shouldn't strive for, unless they're gifted:).
I wish I was joking, here. But when I tell them it's easily achievable, some people seem to be having a cognitive shock of some kind;).

I think this is due to the GM mapping out a KOOL PLOT before starting the game.
When the players want to go in some completely different direction, the GM has to try and come up with another elaborate PLOT that is just as KOOL.
Like changing channels on the TV to a new movie in the middle of the one you are watching.

It seems a lot of people have been conditioned to "color inside the lines" and need those lines.

May have been a problem with EPT? No pre-existing modules to run and or re-image to the setting?
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AsenRG · January 15, 2017, 01:19:10 PM

Quote from: Greentongue;940681I think this is due to the GM mapping out a KOOL PLOT before starting the game.
When the players want to go in some completely different direction, the GM has to try and come up with another elaborate PLOT that is just as KOOL.
Like changing channels on the TV to a new movie in the middle of the one you are watching.

Solution: ditch plots, default to NPC motivations:).

QuoteIt seems a lot of people have been conditioned to "color inside the lines" and need those lines.

May have been a problem with EPT? No pre-existing modules to run and or re-image to the setting?

And yeah, it might have been a problem for all I know.
But "Tekumel remained unappreciated because canned modules" is just another reason to ditch canned modules;).