Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;921176Apologies for "sounding pedantic". That really wasn't the intent.
I happen to love the world. I happen to be having a very good time with. And the world has rekindled my enjoyment of RPGs. I was merely interested in sharing some of my enthusiasm with the person who asked me for tips. Isn't that the idea behind this thread?

We can all agree that Tekumel is not for everybody. But that's also true of any other game world. If doesn't rock your boat, well, just play something else and have a good time doing it.

Peace.

Hey Neshm,

Don't apologise for your enthusiasm. Many others feel the same way about Tekumel. It's kept me interested in RPGs for decades. You will always get people who slag Tekumel and its fans. They don't have to read posts if they don't like them.

If you tried to run Forgotten Realms with every single damn thing in the canon it would be at least as intimidating as Tekumel. Probably moreso, actually, as so much of the material is inconsistent.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;921187If you tried to run Forgotten Realms with every single damn thing in the canon it would be at least as intimidating as Tekumel. Probably moreso, actually, as so much of the material is inconsistent.

You would also have to somehow run a campaign that took place everywhere on Faerun at the same time.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921181I think the explanation is fairly obvious.  It's over 40 years old and hasn't really been in the public eye for decades.

I don't know about 40 years ago, but 30 years ago when I first got a copy, nobody played it then, either.

QuoteWhen was the last time it was on store shelves?  11 years ago?  I don't remember ever even seeing that version in a store.  Many gamers have probably never even seen a copy of any edition.

If it were popular, they would have kept publishing it, and would probably have several editions of it for good measure.

I've haven't seen any version of EPT on a store shelf in many years... but that goes for a LOT of RPGs that aren't some form of D&D or D20 related.
I've never met anyone who ran it either.
Still, I can readily see it's influence in my own settings and in various commercial products.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;921292I don't know about 40 years ago, but 30 years ago when I first got a copy, nobody played it then, either.

Obviously somebody played it even if you and I didn't know them.  

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;921292If it were popular, they would have kept publishing it, and would probably have several editions of it for good measure.

It's a setting that appears occasionally only to drop off the face of the Earth again shortly afterwards.  Every ten years or so it appears and then disappears again.  The Guardians of Order version came out as Guardians of Order was on their way out and barely made a ripple.  Most people probably never saw it or realized it had even come out.  It's hard to build a market for something that comes out once a decade only to vanish again in short order.  It would probably always be a niche game because of its unusual setting but the erratic, limited availability made it next to impossible for the game to find any audience.

Quote from: Spinachcat;921114That's awesome. Thank you!!

Sounds like a cool, dense setting. The linguistics appear to be a challenge. Is there an easy idiot proof pronunciation guide online to print for players?

First rule of playing on Tekumel: ignore the pronunciation, or just assign a meaning to the '-signs and read it in Spanish.
Seriously, people don't learn Mandarin Chinese for wuxia games, nor Cantonese for Feng Shui games set in Hong Kong. Even fewer learn 17th century French for swashbuckling games set in 17th century France.
No need to get more serious about made-up languages than we are about real languages.
Especially since not even the creator insisted on that amount of detail.

Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;921040I've been using Béthorm, although I also plan on testing the free Dave Morris' free, battle-tested Tirikelu system sooner than later.
Bethorm has strong echoes of GURPS but it's lighter and faster. Recommended.
I wrote a little blurb introducing the system here:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35187-Let-s-Talk-About-EPT&p=918774&viewfull=1#post918774

You could start by listening to Jeff Dee's very good introduction to gaming on Tékumel here:
http://www.celesticon.com/Podcasts/Podcasts2015/JeffDee_Tekumel_C2015.mp3
He briefly talks about pronouncing the words, before quickly moving on to answering the question: "How can I ever be expected to understand all of this stuff and get it all right?"
Lots of tips and hints.



Gronan is 100% correct. Tekumel is really not very different from your regular game world of choice.

RPGing on Tékumel keeps being made into something complex and insurmountable because the cultures are so alien, so weird and OMG, so unique and wildly bizarre, etc.
It's not. Period.
It is dense, yes. It is detailed, yes. And it does require the GMs to work a bit harder than usual at prepping the adventures. But that's not what I call complex or unique or strange. That's what I call thinking about the society in which the PCs evolve a bit more, and thinking about the NPCs those adventurers meet along the way a bit more, which makes for a richer and more fun RPG experience.

Keep in mind that you're not being asked to play aliens either. You're being asked to play human beings. As such, expect human being stuff: love, friendship, treason, ambition, etc.
How strange! How weird! How alien!

So, run your games the way you'd run any other, semi-old-school RPG session.

At first, focus on keeping things simple, for yourself and the players:

- Have the adventures take place in and around some rural/remote clan.
- Have all your players roll characters from different lineages but from the same clan.
- Have all your players pick gods/goddess from the same pantheon (either Change or Stability) to avoid game-breaking conflicts later on.
- Get your players involved in some old-school achievable adventures with clear goals/objectives, whether they are "off the boat" barbarians or members of a medium rural clan: find where that boy is; why haven't we heard from the hunters/merchants/sailors in a while; what is that weird structure that's now coming out from the local hill; there's a thief about! There are thousands of such adventures out there for all sorts of games.
- At first, think of clans as fantasy-setting guilds, and lineages as, well, regular families. We, as 21st Century people, understand what families are since we are members of our respective families, with the shady uncle, the crazy grand-dad, the sweet granny, etc. And we work with "guild members" too: work colleagues, the cool ones, the pain-in-the-butt ones, the helpful ones, etc.
- Keep in mind that all Tekumelani things revolve around one's appearance, one's honor, and keeping one's clan/lineage/temple proud. You do so, well, by looking good and behaving honorably, whatever that entails in the temple and/or clan of your choice. And by the way, we all understand the concept of honor in a semi-traditional setting since we've all seen those samurai films.
- Tell things to your player about the world directly as a GM, or, more adroitly, as an NPC. For instance, have the head of your PCs' clan remind them, at the start of their first adventures, that they should behave honorably and not shame the clan, etc. Some street urchin met in some city can be one such unofficial guide to Tekumelani daily-life. Etc.
- Keep in mind that almost any issue can be resolved by putting the right amount of money in the right hands.

And then, as things progress inject a bit more detail:

- Start using a bit more Tsolyani words, for atmosphere. Simple ones. Your players don't have to do it at all, of course.
- Clans and lineages are like guilds and families respectively, sure, but not quite.
- Give your PCs a backstory. The Bethorm rules, with its system of advantages and disadvantages, help that way. But if you use another system, just come up with some backstory that might answer such basic questions as, what does the character want? Who are his/her friends? What's his/her greatest fear? etc. Regular RPG stuff.
- Give your NPCs a life of their own too! What do they want? Where are they from? Etc. Regular RPG stuff too. This approach will make your games that much more interesting down the line, as your key NPCs (be they clan-leaders or rich employers) will keep showing up in the lives of your PCs, etc.
- Don't allow your players to play Tekumel's aliens, unless it's for some unusual game session, like a one-shot. That way, you keep the aliens weird and strange.
- Get inspiration on the look, smell, and taste of things everywhere and anywhere! For instance:

• Read the first Tekumel novel and you'll see that we're dealing with very normal adventures and very normal daily lives where clan politics are really not that important.
• Read, if you can get your hands on them, the solo-adventures from the Gardasiyal RPG. Again, you'll realize that Tekumel is like any other fantasy world when it comes to going on adventures, meeting people, etc.
• Wanna see what going on an expedition looks like on Tekumel? Watch the opening of Aguirre the Wrath of God: https://youtu.be/4dbBur_bSUE
  
• Wanna see what a religious festival might look like on Tekumel? A video on the Kumbh Mela Hindu pilgrimage in India will do: https://youtu.be/wCnX2XCBMAA
  
• Wanna know what some of Tekumel forests sound like? Jungle sounds should give you a hint: https://youtu.be/u4pZcU16mIA
  
• Wanna see what peering beyond the veil of Tekumel's reality is like? Any fractal video will do https://youtu.be/AgdN5yO39UI
  
• If you see some wild Asian fantasy film trailer, think of the magic in it as being advanced, futuristic technology that harnesses extra-planar energy, like here https://youtu.be/Gsy6u5LdRRA
  
• Don't hesitate to make it pulpy, campy, and tongue-in-cheek, with loads of colors and outrageous situations when appropriate: "No! Not the Bore Worms!" https://youtu.be/x0Ev2qiY08M
  

Excellent explanation! And thank you for the links.
Also, don't pay attention to trolling posts.

Quote from: Kellri;921144I don't know, it just seemed overly long and tediously pedantic.

Then go back, reread the first part, then watch the video links. There's nothing pedantic about those.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;921184Hey Neshm,

Don't apologise for your enthusiasm.

Word.


Also, the reason it's not really popular is the presentation. Some people like to present Tekumel as dry and demanding, and requiring "true expert knowledge". Most people don't want to study an academic course in order to play a game, hence most people give it a wide berth.

Alas, some of the people who believe this are among those who should be popularizing Tekumel...and that's not an attitude that helps said task.

But at the end of the day, all people with said attitude forget that Tekumel is an RPG setting. It should be treated as such, and not as a semi religious text that should be always adhered to strictly. In fact, the creator said you shouldn't treat it as Holy Writ. Anyone remember the much-neglected sidebar "Make Tekumel your own?
Also, always remember that the spirit of the creator would be angry at you if you treat his creation as a religious or semi-religious text!
(MARBarker was Muslim, and a practicing one at that. We can safely conclude that writing a religious text with over 10 gods in it is something he'd never have considered. Google "Tawhid" if you don't get the reason).

Now, if you always prepare painstakingly in order to run a new setting...you'll prepare painstakingly in order to run Tekumel, too, and it would be just another setting to you. But you shouldn't require that everyone does it the same way. Most people should just read the setting book, maybe watch a couple YouTube videos, and they can start running it!
 And if they can't wrap their heads around a detail? Well, it's better that they ditch it from the setting they use in their game*, than to ditch the setting because of a detail!


*All groups playing in any setting inevitably use a variant of said setting. This is true for Tekumel, Glorantha, and the Forgotten Realms in equal measure. The only way to avoid that is to have only one group using this setting - the one of the creator. We even have a name for such settings. It's "unpublished homebrew".

The only thing more popular than lionizing Tekumel for the untrue idea that you have to master huge volumes of linguistic and social trivia to play it, is slagging off Tekumel for the untrue idea that you have to master huge volumes of linguistic and social trivia to play it.

And that's been true since 1975.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921153What does watching a movie have to do with anything?

Good question!

Im my particular case, I like to suggest to potential players that they read a book or books and/or look at a movie to give them some idea of what kind of setting they'll be playing in - this is for extended campaigns, of course, and not for one-shots at conventions or the FLGS. As examples, the group that was in Thursday was looking at "Thief of Baghdad" as a way to introduce Tekumel, and Sunday's group has all seen "John Carter" as an introduction to Barsoom. Both groups have a varied mix of experienced players and novices, so it should be interesting.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921303Obviously somebody played it even if you and I didn't know them.  



It's a setting that appears occasionally only to drop off the face of the Earth again shortly afterwards.  Every ten years or so it appears and then disappears again.  The Guardians of Order version came out as Guardians of Order was on their way out and barely made a ripple.  Most people probably never saw it or realized it had even come out.  It's hard to build a market for something that comes out once a decade only to vanish again in short order.  It would probably always be a niche game because of its unusual setting but the erratic, limited availability made it next to impossible for the game to find any audience.

Very accurate points!!!

According to Kevin Blume of TSR, 11,000 copies of EPT were sold in the couple of years that they were publishing it. Supposedly, it outsold D&D for the same period, according to the same source.

After that, the owner of the IP had very little interest in publishing anything, which is why you get the ten-year cycle of his friends and fans Doing Something, getting no support, and walking away. (Been there, done that, still have fifty T-shirts left from the last order.) There's a reason why Mike Stackpole. Dave Arneson, and the GAMA Hall Of Shame awarded Phil a 'Ralphie' for "Being The Most Difficult Author In The Game Industry". (I still have the little statue, too; giving the acceptance speech for Phil at Origins was a lot of fun, actually.)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;921386The only thing more popular than lionizing Tekumel for the untrue idea that you have to master huge volumes of linguistic and social trivia to play it, is slagging off Tekumel for the untrue idea that you have to master huge volumes of linguistic and social trivia to play it.

And that's been true since 1975.

Very accurate.

For my Barsoom games, do I make the players learn Martian? Essay tests? Homework assignments? Or should we just play the damn world?

Quote from: Jeff Berry;921459Very accurate.

For my Barsoom games, do I make the players learn Martian? Essay tests? Homework assignments? Or should we just play the damn world?

Obviously, only people who can explain the scientific principle of the radium weapons and/or the flying ships' engine, and have published a peer-reviewed paper on it, should be allowed to participate in a game about said exalted setting!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;921386The only thing more popular than lionizing Tekumel for the untrue idea that you have to master huge volumes of linguistic and social trivia to play it, is slagging off Tekumel for the untrue idea that you have to master huge volumes of linguistic and social trivia to play it.

And that's been true since 1975.

I've seen that sort of false argument used against other RPGs too, and even other media by the village idiots and any given waste of oxygen who has never actually played the game.

Quote from: yosemitemike;921303Obviously somebody played it even if you and I didn't know them.  

It's a setting that appears occasionally only to drop off the face of the Earth again shortly afterwards.  Every ten years or so it appears and then disappears again.  The Guardians of Order version came out as Guardians of Order was on their way out and barely made a ripple.  Most people probably never saw it or realized it had even come out.  It's hard to build a market for something that comes out once a decade only to vanish again in short order.  It would probably always be a niche game because of its unusual setting but the erratic, limited availability made it next to impossible for the game to find any audience.

When I first started playing in 1977 didn't even know about EPT. Then started reading articles about it in trade mags, Interviews, ...variants. Back in the day, that's how you learned about a new game. Either dragon, or one of the many homebrew newsletters that would spring into circulation for awhile. FLGS owners seemed to glom onto the newsletters and would post them and other notices on a bulletin board at the game store. Still didn't know anyone that actually played in Colorado Springs until 1993, although I did observe some EPT games being run at Genghis Con in the early 80's.

I couldn't get a copy after I first played it in 1993. It was out print by then. Lou Zocchi had a copy of the Gamescience ziplocked version of the Swords & Glory Sourcebook, the one that included the map of Jakalla (which was also out of print by then, but he had some extra copies) which I bought in 2003 for like a $20 spot. It has all the lore, and the stuff on scripts and languages for the purists in all in 9 point font (Which I need a magnifying glass to read these days). No rules mechanics or crunch at at all, so you could really use any game system to run a game set in Tekumel. TFT, T&T, GURPS, D&D, Runequest, C&C, Fudge, Fate, ...you can use anything you want for this campaign setting, so that was a brilliant example of flawlessly perfect campaign setting, one hundred percent fluff, but highly detailed fluff that could be used any way the GM sees fit.

That alone makes it a good buy.

Quote from: AsenRG;920514If Kevin Crawford's rules don't ever appear, ...

They do seem to be an excellent upgrade from the Original D&D style rules with an emphasis on the things that have been identified as unique to Tekumel.

Treating it as "Just Another D&D Setting" doesn't seem to be the SIN that many people make it out to be, to me.

If your players are having a good time and want to keep playing, to me that is a WIN, even if nobody else would recognize it as "Tekumel".
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