I don't have my book in front of me, but another aspect of combat here is that Men At Arms OCCs can make a parry attempt without losing an action. This is a big bonus for them, and a pretty darn good inducement for playing the class, even in the face of some of the powers of the magic classes. PFRPG 1e is more lethal than its successor, so even a chance to parry is a big deal. It's a nice fighter ability that doesn't break the game or add any sort of powers list you've got to run through. I appreciate that.

(And yes, 1 minute melee round times! We've always had those be pretty subjective in nature).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;601368I think I see what you're referring to (where in the Dodge section it says "
 a man at ams may opt to dodge a strike by moving out of the way") but further down the page (42) in Non-Men of Arms, Parry and Dodge, it mentions that "a wizard who attempts to parry or dodge forfeits his next strike" so its clear that they can do it, the first bit is just written a little oddly.

Good catch:)

@Zach-  I downloaded the character sheet you did, nice job and thanks for posting that.

Here was the last post that I did.  I'll do my best to keep updating.


This next section will probably take me several posts to get through as it is one of the more lengthy sections in the book.  I apologize in advance for any errors that are made.

As stated earlier, there are six OCCs available to play (the seventh, the Alchemist, being only available as an NPC).  After a brief overview of magic, we get to the first magic OCC, the wizard.  

Wizardry is described here as the science and study of spell magic.  Wizards invoke their spells by voicing ancient magic words of power, so Wizards must be able to speak to cast.  Each spell has a level and levels range from 1st to 11th, with spells becoming more powerful as one goes up in level.  Wizards can learn and cast spells higher than their effective level, although higher level spells may not be as effective for them.  Depending on the Wizard's level, there are only a certain amount of spells per day that they may cast.  As they progress in level, they are able to cast more spells per day.

As we read on there is a paragraph explaining the difference between the elemental spells a Wizard may cast and the elemental magic a Warlock possesses.  Chief difference is there are ranges, durations and saving throws- with the Warlock's magic being more powerful.  I imagine this distinction is made as a space saving feature since the author did not want to list the same spells twice.

I enjoyed the next section, which deals with the six common spells that all Wizard's learn upon completing their apprenticeship.  The spells are decipher magic, sense magic, cloud of slumber, globe of daylight, tongues and my favorite- the enchanted cauldron.

The enchanted cauldron is where this game really pulled me in.  This is a spell where the character attempts to gain more spells through a ritual involving the cauldron, human blood, an owl feather, a butterfly  and then stirs the whole thing with a sword (must be iron or steel) while bringing it to a slow boil two hours before the moon hits it's highest point in the sky.  This is done in an effort to draw a spirit of magic into the cauldron.  Thereafter the Wizard must drink a cup of the blood and hope that this whole thing works.  If they fail, they have to pour out everything in a graveyard and start the whole ordeal over on another night.  If successful, the spirit will enter the Wizard and teach them some new spells.  To add a little excitement to the whole ordeal, there's a chance that the process might make you a bit crazy.  There is also a chance when all is said and done that the spirit never leaves the cauldron, which leaves you effectively with a crystal ball.  

Now while there are rolls to be made to determine if the ritual is successful, whether you become insane and roll on the insanity chart, rolls to see how many spells are obtained and what those spells are- the process just became so much more metal.  In a little side note- I feel that far too many games these days suffer from trying to cast the widest net possible, and in doing so make their rules boring and unexciting.  I know there's a lot of people who just want to the rules to teach the game, but I feel they should inspire you and promote creativity.  These rules fulfill that need for me and I commend the author for doing a great job on the inspirational front.
I'm going to stop here for now, and when I pick up next post, deal with purchasing spells.

Yeah, the magic cauldron is bad ass. First PFantasy character I ever made was a Wizard JUST BECAUSE of the magic cauldron.

Quote from: everloss;601416Yeah, the magic cauldron is bad ass. First PFantasy character I ever made was a Wizard JUST BECAUSE of the magic cauldron.

That's freaking awesome.

RPGPundit

Hmm poseidon-anubis seems to have evaporated. All his posts seem to be gone.

Quote from: Zachary The First;601378I don't have my book in front of me, but another aspect of combat here is that Men At Arms OCCs can make a parry attempt without losing an action. This is a big bonus for them, and a pretty darn good inducement for playing the class, even in the face of some of the powers of the magic classes. PFRPG 1e is more lethal than its successor, so even a chance to parry is a big deal. It's a nice fighter ability that doesn't break the game or add any sort of powers list you've got to run through. I appreciate that.

(And yes, 1 minute melee round times! We've always had those be pretty subjective in nature).

Just a clarification, the section here on the free parry and non men-of-arms at the bottom of the page talks about them being limited to only the skills with specific weapons that they have learned.  As most of the men of magic and clergy have a Hand-to-hand skill available, usually Hand-to-hand: Non men or arms, would they get the free parry if they took that elective?  Also, the Priest gets HtH: Mercenary or HtH: Soldier, surely he also would get the free parry?

So is it being a Man of Arms that nets the extra defences, or, as implied by the phrasing  of the section on non men of arms at the bottom of page 42, the knowledge/training in a Hand-to-Hand skill?

It surprises me in how similar this game looks like the new Hackmaster game.  I think someone at kenzerco was a big fan.

Quote from: Psychman;602342Just a clarification, the section here on the free parry and non men-of-arms at the bottom of the page talks about them being limited to only the skills with specific weapons that they have learned.  As most of the men of magic and clergy have a Hand-to-hand skill available, usually Hand-to-hand: Non men or arms, would they get the free parry if they took that elective?  Also, the Priest gets HtH: Mercenary or HtH: Soldier, surely he also would get the free parry?

So is it being a Man of Arms that nets the extra defences, or, as implied by the phrasing  of the section on non men of arms at the bottom of page 42, the knowledge/training in a Hand-to-Hand skill?

I'm probably going to go on too long, so apologies if I get carried away:

I have always gone by under the "Parry" section on page 42 (bold print from the book):

"PARRY
A parry is the blocking of an attack. As a result of their training all men of arms get an automatic parry (unless forfeited in favor of another action)".

It states in the next paragraph that a men of arms still loses his attack if he dodges, so there's that distinction.

If you read further on the page, it says a non men-at-arms forfeits his next action when he tries a parry or dodge. For that reason, I've never tied it to any sort of elective hand to hand skill, but rather the men-at-arms OCC itself, with only a couple of exceptions specific to certain campaigns and characterds.

Now, if you look back on pg. 19, it states the following:

"Each of the eight men of arms OCC has a specific combat training and orientation affecting their speed, number of attacks, damage, and so forth. In addition to the eight combat tables, there is a ninth for Non-men of arms OCCs [italics KS's, not mine]. This is applicable to men of magic and most clergy, however some clergy may be trained in combat skills (usually as mercenary fighter, soldier, thief, or assassin".

Now, of the non-men of arms OCCs, there are a few that can actually pick or have a martial hand-to-hand skill:

Squire (Mercenary Fighter, OCC Skill)
Noble (Soldier, elective)
Priest/Priestess (as described in text above)
Shaman (Mercenary, elective)

So for the other classes, (Peasant, Healer, all your magic classes, etc., it's not an issue).

For the Squire and Noble, they could almost be considered auxiliary men of arms classes, although that might be up to their background (in the table of contents, "Optional OCCs" are listed under the "Men of Arms" section. However, I would suggest that the difference between a Noble with combat training and a Soldier or Mercenary could be played as the difference between a flashy sort of blade who campaigns for two weeks a year and practices dueling versus the fellow who has been a part of extended campaigns and sieges for 10 years and has to live by his swordwork. So I would personally not extend that parry bonus to the Squire or Noble, as it suggests a sort of day-in-and-out competency in their field, but wouldn't object if there was a game where the ruling went the other way.

Hope that helps. You could certainly play it differently at your table, but that's always been my understanding.

Quote from: Zachary The First;602525I'm probably going to go on too long, so apologies if I get carried away:

I have always gone by under the "Parry" section on page 42 (bold print from the book):

"PARRY
A parry is the blocking of an attack. As a result of their training all men of arms get an automatic parry (unless forfeited in favor of another action)".

It states in the next paragraph that a men of arms still loses his attack if he dodges, so there's that distinction.

If you read further on the page, it says a non men-at-arms forfeits his next action when he tries a parry or dodge. For that reason, I've never tied it to any sort of elective hand to hand skill, but rather the men-at-arms OCC itself, with only a couple of exceptions specific to certain campaigns and characterds.

Now, if you look back on pg. 19, it states the following:

"Each of the eight men of arms OCC has a specific combat training and orientation affecting their speed, number of attacks, damage, and so forth. In addition to the eight combat tables, there is a ninth for Non-men of arms OCCs [italics KS's, not mine]. This is applicable to men of magic and most clergy, however some clergy may be trained in combat skills (usually as mercenary fighter, soldier, thief, or assassin".

Now, of the non-men of arms OCCs, there are a few that can actually pick or have a martial hand-to-hand skill:

Squire (Mercenary Fighter, OCC Skill)
Noble (Soldier, elective)
Priest/Priestess (as described in text above)
Shaman (Mercenary, elective)

So for the other classes, (Peasant, Healer, all your magic classes, etc., it's not an issue).

For the Squire and Noble, they could almost be considered auxiliary men of arms classes, although that might be up to their background (in the table of contents, "Optional OCCs" are listed under the "Men of Arms" section. However, I would suggest that the difference between a Noble with combat training and a Soldier or Mercenary could be played as the difference between a flashy sort of blade who campaigns for two weeks a year and practices dueling versus the fellow who has been a part of extended campaigns and sieges for 10 years and has to live by his swordwork. So I would personally not extend that parry bonus to the Squire or Noble, as it suggests a sort of day-in-and-out competency in their field, but wouldn't object if there was a game where the ruling went the other way.

Hope that helps. You could certainly play it differently at your table, but that's always been my understanding.

I follow your reasoning, but I keep wondering about this section on page 42, under "Non-men of arms, parry and dodge":

"Characters with no combat training do not get an automatic parry.  The player must announce whether the character is attempting to parry or dodge; no announcement means no parry or dodge.Any bonuses to parry are from what little weapon skills (W.P.) that the character may have with a practiced weapon.  Lacking a skill at arms, any such maneuver counts as an attack."

This suggests strongly to me that formal/general combat training is the key to having the automatic parry, WPs do not provide it.  The Hand-to-hand electives that may be available to non-men of arms are surely actual general combat training of the type referred to, and indeed provide parry bonuses in addition to what weapon proficencies provide.  Since they do provide additional bonuses, and additional attacks, it would appear they are kind of combat training, the absence of which is discussed in the above section.

This is why I read that if the Hand-to-hand elective is taken, it would allow the automatic parry, as long as a weapon is drawn to make the parry attempt.  Now, that may lead to difficulties in using other abilities, gestures etc, but they have chosen that as an elective, reducing what other skills they might have chosen.  It also makes determining the situation with non-men of arms with higher level hand-to-hand skills easier: they all get the auto parry if they take a hand-to-hand, and don't if they don't.  I found your response regarding the priest, noble etc unclear regarding if you thought they should get the parry but you seemed to say no.  As the example in the priest section does say that militant religions provide soldier training it seems strange to preclude from them the free parry such professional general training would provide.

Well that's my reasoning on the subject anyway.  I suppose you could rule that Hand-to-hand: non-men of arms doesn't provide the free parry, but the rest do, but that feels to me quite harsh for a skill the character had to choose as one of their limited electives, to acquire.  I do feel that the mercenary, soldier, and other higher hand-to-hands should include the free parry as their usefulness is significantly diminished otherwise.

I definitely understand where you're coming from. I apologize if my example was unclear. Basically, I guess it's in how you read it. To me, the item under "Parry" suggests men of arms get the training, seeming to imply by exclusion others do not. While I would not have an issue granting it to a Squire or Militant Priest with a proper background and a HtH: Men of Arms combat skill, I would not give it to a Wizard simply because he has Hand to Hand: Non-Man of Arms.  I think your Priest example is a very good instance in which I would be fine giving that parry.

To me, the text is saying the following:

-Men of Arms get a free parry.
-By exclusion, others outside the Men of Arms classification do not.
-To clarify, characters with no Hand to Hand skill also do not receive the free parry.

Honestly, you can play it either way. I like reserving it for martial characters, as it really helps represent their battle prowess over someone who had basic conscript training or perhaps just learned fisticuffs behind the barn with his village's version of Fight Club. No harm either way, of course!

Quote from: Zachary The First;602654I definitely understand where you're coming from. I apologize if my example was unclear. Basically, I guess it's in how you read it. To me, the item under "Parry" suggests men of arms get the training, seeming to imply by exclusion others do not. While I would not have an issue granting it to a Squire or Militant Priest with a proper background and a HtH: Men of Arms combat skill, I would not give it to a Wizard simply because he has Hand to Hand: Non-Man of Arms.  I think your Priest example is a very good instance in which I would be fine giving that parry.

To me, the text is saying the following:

-Men of Arms get a free parry.
-By exclusion, others outside the Men of Arms classification do not.
-To clarify, characters with no Hand to Hand skill also do not receive the free parry.

Honestly, you can play it either way. I like reserving it for martial characters, as it really helps represent their battle prowess over someone who had basic conscript training or perhaps just learned fisticuffs behind the barn with his village's version of Fight Club. No harm either way, of course!

Sounds like a reasonable position would therefore be:
-Men of Arms get a free parry,
-Those who have a Hand-to-Hand skill associated with a Men of Arms O.C.C. have received comparable training to full Men of Arms so also receive the free parry
-The Hand-to-Hand: Non-Men of Arms is basic self defence training instead of  professional combat training so does not include the free parry

This would include in the free parry: Squire, Merchant (with elective), Noble (with elective), Witch, Priest (with elective), Shaman (with elective).

Those who do not have a free parry are: Peasant, Merchant, Noble, Scholar, Wizard, Warlock, Diabolist, Summoner, Mind Mage, Priest, Druid, Shaman, Healer.

I would be happy with that compromise, what do you think?

Edit: In going through the book to do that list, I begin to be more inclined towards your thinking.  The HtH skills grant additional attacks, which can be used for Parries anyway, so the training without free parry would mean the non-men of arms could parry every attack coming their way vs a man of arms with the same skill, just not get a chance to hit back.

The Squire should get the extra parry, he is after all, a Knight-in-training.  A formally combat trained Priest should do also, and receives HtH:Soldier, as does a combat trained Noble. What about HtH:Thief or HtH:Assassin for Priests of Darkness, or the HtH:Thief for Witches?

I can see the argument for none of the others getting the extra parry, as they are all HtH:Mercenary so self-taught but without the same rigours of an actual working Mercenary.

If only Kevin had spelled this out more clearly!  Does anyone know how he handled it in the 2nd edition?

Quote from: Psychman;602702Sounds like a reasonable position would therefore be:
-Men of Arms get a free parry,
-Those who have a Hand-to-Hand skill associated with a Men of Arms O.C.C. have received comparable training to full Men of Arms so also receive the free parry
-The Hand-to-Hand: Non-Men of Arms is basic self defence training instead of  professional combat training so does not include the free parry

This would include in the free parry: Squire, Merchant (with elective), Noble (with elective), Witch, Priest (with elective), Shaman (with elective).

Those who do not have a free parry are: Peasant, Merchant, Noble, Scholar, Wizard, Warlock, Diabolist, Summoner, Mind Mage, Priest, Druid, Shaman, Healer.

I would be happy with that compromise, what do you think?

I think that's excellent! :hatsoff:

The magic section has a lot of information, so I'm going to go slowly through it.  

The book states that spell casters never sell their magic- the power that they wield is jealously guarded.  However, there are two ways that characters can purchase magic- through the clergy and through alchemists.

With clergy, the priest will only sell spells to those characters who they deem to be worthy- those of conflicting alignments/motives may be denied or charged higher fees- this being determined through an interview with the character.  The page continues with things such as gratuity, consultation fees, and spell costs.  It is interesting to note that the priests themselves do not have knowledge of the spells, but pray to their god(s) for temporary knowledge of the spell (using the actual prayers of intervention spell for success chances) to teach the character privately.   If the clergy fails to obtain the incantation from their deity, there is no refund to the character for fees spent.  Characters can go through the process again, but are still required to pay all fees except for the gratuity.  

Alchemists are the magic peddlers of the Palldaium world.  Though they function similar to clergy, they are more expensive than clergy for their services.  There is one big difference- their spells are guaranteed to be taught to the character or your money back.

What's important to keep in mind is that purchasing spells is allowed up to a certain level, and from there on out, you'll have to find other means to learn magic.

There are three other ways listed for gaining new spells- trade, boon/grant and scroll conversion.  

Trade and boon/grant are pretty much what you think they are.  Perhaps you find a wizard who is willing to trade the knowledge one of their spells for one of yours.  Boons/grants can serve as rewards from powerful wizards or dragons for services rendered to them.  It is noted that dragons are very cautious of what magics they will teach as wizards are often the mortal foes of dragons.

Lastly get to scroll conversion.  This is the procedure for converting a spell scroll into a magic incantation that can then be learned by the wizard and become part of their magical arsenal.  The task of converting scrolls is extremely difficult and dangerous.  Failures can result in explosions, blindness, physical alterations and demonic summoning (roll on the random failure chart).  Even if the conversion is successful, the spell might not be as desired- being either a weakened version, just as desired, or an unstable spell.  Each time an unstable spell is cast, you must roll on a chart to determine the effect.

The page ends with what happens to scrolls after conversion (destroyed) and how Alchemists will offer their services for converting scrolls- and how their greed for more magic can lead them to screw over a client.

I'll end things here and hopefully get onto scrolls themselves, circle, symbols and magic guilds.

Quote from: Psychman;602702If only Kevin had spelled this out more clearly!  Does anyone know how he handled it in the 2nd edition?

In 2nd edition, you have to purchase a HtH skill, and if you do so, you receive a free parry - regardless of OCC.

The HtH skills are condensed into Basic, Expert, Martial Arts (Paladin), and Assassin. All of which provide a free parry.