I would prefer it as DnD in space.  Ditch the crystal spheres and fly among the stars.  Get rid of the weird gravity planes and just let down be down.  Keep the air envelopes and temperate temperatures.

Instead of having spelljammer helms drain the spellcaster completely, let the spellcaster power the helm by expending individual spell slots.  

Define what the crew actually does on the ship.

Better system for planet creation.

Quote from: Old One Eye;822231I would prefer it as DnD in space.  Ditch the crystal spheres and fly among the stars.  Get rid of the weird gravity planes and just let down be down.  Keep the air envelopes and temperate temperatures.

Instead of having spelljammer helms drain the spellcaster completely, let the spellcaster power the helm by expending individual spell slots.  

Define what the crew actually does on the ship.

Better system for planet creation.

im not familar with the gravity system but is it anything like the elemental planes of air and water

Quote from: tuypo1;822234im not familar with the gravity system but is it anything like the elemental planes of air and water

A 'gravity plane' goes through the middle of a ship.  You can stand on the ship's upper decks normally.  Gravity flips below the plane such that it is upside down in the lower decks and the hull.

While kind of a nifty visual, it crops up all the time and is a PITA to adjudicate.  More trouble than it is worth.

Breathable air and wind. Ain't no ship, if it ain't sail.

Bonus for real cannons.

Quote from: Old One Eye;822238A 'gravity plane' goes through the middle of a ship.  You can stand on the ship's upper decks normally.  Gravity flips below the plane such that it is upside down in the lower decks and the hull.

While kind of a nifty visual, it crops up all the time and is a PITA to adjudicate.  More trouble than it is worth.

interesting

It's why ship-design in Spelljammer often had decks with crews and platforms that mirrored the top-side of the ship (effectively making it have no topside per se).

The rules were the larger gravity plane took control of the smaller gravity planes - so smaller ships had to conform to the 2d plane of the larger. It wasn't as big as a PITA as it sounds after you played a few combats. The hex-scale for ship combat was 1-hex=440-yards. So the whole gravity plane mechanic only comes into play when you're within relative close proximity (I think twice the length of a ship - or  the Air Envelope of the larger ship).

It also made for adventuring on mining asteroids interesting.

Quote from: tenbones;822449It's why ship-design in Spelljammer often had decks with crews and platforms that mirrored the top-side of the ship (effectively making it have no topside per se).

The rules were the larger gravity plane took control of the smaller gravity planes - so smaller ships had to conform to the 2d plane of the larger. It wasn't as big as a PITA as it sounds after you played a few combats. The hex-scale for ship combat was 1-hex=440-yards. So the whole gravity plane mechanic only comes into play when you're within relative close proximity (I think twice the length of a ship - or  the Air Envelope of the larger ship).

It also made for adventuring on mining asteroids interesting.

Gravity plane wonkiness is part of the charm of Spelljammer.

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;822461Gravity plane wonkiness is part of the charm of Spelljammer.

I don't really think it's that wonky. I think as written - it's easily understood and played with. I guess my question is - is it a Spelljammer Sacred Cow?

Look at Pundits view (I don't pretend to know how much Spelljammer Pundit has played) - but his, and others here, have outlined some changes they'd like to see that frankly sounds a lot like Dragonstar.

One of the things about Spelljammer is it doesn't require changing their standard D&D worlds much. If anything Spelljammer assumes the standard Krynn, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms societies as "low-brow" or "provincial" societies. Part of the charm of Spelljammer is being a badass and coming into Spelljammer society and experiencing the culture shock. But nothing intrinsically changes about how you operate per se.

If we were to do away with the sailing ships - and that's arbitrary, you can put a Spelljamming helm on a 1-ton boulder (though that would be dumb) then we're talking Star Wars like space ships flying around in vacuum and shooting ray-guns etc. And we all know 5e can easily support that. But the reality is if you introduce that stuff into your Realms game, it will have huge impacts to the cultures, since swinging a sword is generally inferior to and energy rifle, right? The question is: would it still be Spelljammer? I don't think so - but I'm intrigued by it.

Quote from: tenbones;822472I don't really think it's that wonky. I think as written - it's easily understood and played with. I guess my question is - is it a Spelljammer Sacred Cow?

Look at Pundits view (I don't pretend to know how much Spelljammer Pundit has played) - but his, and others here, have outlined some changes they'd like to see that frankly sounds a lot like Dragonstar.

One of the things about Spelljammer is it doesn't require changing their standard D&D worlds much. If anything Spelljammer assumes the standard Krynn, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms societies as "low-brow" or "provincial" societies. Part of the charm of Spelljammer is being a badass and coming into Spelljammer society and experiencing the culture shock. But nothing intrinsically changes about how you operate per se.

If we were to do away with the sailing ships - and that's arbitrary, you can put a Spelljamming helm on a 1-ton boulder (though that would be dumb) then we're talking Star Wars like space ships flying around in vacuum and shooting ray-guns etc. And we all know 5e can easily support that. But the reality is if you introduce that stuff into your Realms game, it will have huge impacts to the cultures, since swinging a sword is generally inferior to and energy rifle, right? The question is: would it still be Spelljammer? I don't think so - but I'm intrigued by it.

My feelings are that all the spelljammer physics aren't necessarily sacred cows, but they are the things that make it spelljammer rather than dragonstar or star wars or star trek or rifts.

I like gravity planes, but their removal probably wouldn't bother me personally, but the removal of sailing ships in SPAAAACE and magical chairs that can make boulders and house fly would.

Quote from: tenbones;822449It's why ship-design in Spelljammer often had decks with crews and platforms that mirrored the top-side of the ship (effectively making it have no topside per se).

The rules were the larger gravity plane took control of the smaller gravity planes - so smaller ships had to conform to the 2d plane of the larger. It wasn't as big as a PITA as it sounds after you played a few combats. The hex-scale for ship combat was 1-hex=440-yards. So the whole gravity plane mechanic only comes into play when you're within relative close proximity (I think twice the length of a ship - or  the Air Envelope of the larger ship).

It also made for adventuring on mining asteroids interesting.

For a one shot or short campaign, sure it is a nifty thing.

For a full campaign, it is more trouble than it is worth.  Every single boarding action involves it.  Most dungeons in space will involve it.  Players will game the gravity mechanics for advantage leading to the DM retaliating in due course.  

Gravity plane simply becomes a significant part of the game that will constantly be interacted with, which I do not personally feel is sufficiently interesting to be such a large element of the game.

Quote from: tenbones;822472I don't really think it's that wonky. I think as written - it's easily understood and played with. I guess my question is - is it a Spelljammer Sacred Cow?

Look at Pundits view (I don't pretend to know how much Spelljammer Pundit has played) - but his, and others here, have outlined some changes they'd like to see that frankly sounds a lot like Dragonstar.

One of the things about Spelljammer is it doesn't require changing their standard D&D worlds much. If anything Spelljammer assumes the standard Krynn, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms societies as "low-brow" or "provincial" societies. Part of the charm of Spelljammer is being a badass and coming into Spelljammer society and experiencing the culture shock. But nothing intrinsically changes about how you operate per se.

If we were to do away with the sailing ships - and that's arbitrary, you can put a Spelljamming helm on a 1-ton boulder (though that would be dumb) then we're talking Star Wars like space ships flying around in vacuum and shooting ray-guns etc. And we all know 5e can easily support that. But the reality is if you introduce that stuff into your Realms game, it will have huge impacts to the cultures, since swinging a sword is generally inferior to and energy rifle, right? The question is: would it still be Spelljammer? I don't think so - but I'm intrigued by it.

i dont know enough about the gravity planes or have any expirence with them to know if they should be sacred cows but at the moment im going to say you can safely take them out. HOWEVER if they do take them out it would be vital to have them in as an optional rule

so yeah as far as i can tell so far the crystal spheres are the only cow.

reminds me of a game i played once where all the players were cows fighting against the dyson cow surrounding our planet.

I'm just interested in the "how does it work" side of things.  I want it to just be magic: the boat flies, it has magic gravity, you don't need to explain how the cosmology works.  I want it to be D&D in space: focus on what the races are like, on cool planets, not on trying to create some kind of 'fantasy physics'.

Quote from: Old One Eye;822495For a one shot or short campaign, sure it is a nifty thing.

For a full campaign, it is more trouble than it is worth.  Every single boarding action involves it.  Most dungeons in space will involve it.  Players will game the gravity mechanics for advantage leading to the DM retaliating in due course.  

Gravity plane simply becomes a significant part of the game that will constantly be interacted with, which I do not personally feel is sufficiently interesting to be such a large element of the game.

The players in my SJ campaign would disagree with you vehemently.  

One of the longest and most successful -- and most-fondly remembered by all involved, still discussed among us 20 years later -- campaigns I ever ran in AD&D 2e was in the SJ universe.  The crystal spheres, gravity planes, spelljamming helms, etc., were the elements they loved most about the setting.  And they were all skeptics at the start.

Those things served as immediate reminders that this is a fantasy universe, not a science fiction universe with some D&D races thrown in.  And in actual play, they worked out fine for us.

If SJ were brought back in an official capacity, I'd hope that none of those things were changed.

What needs to go are the ties to the groundling worlds of Greyhawk, the Realms, and Dragonlance.  Those were a distraction, and kept SJ from becoming its own thing.  

I say ditch any attempt to make it more sci-fi, take the focus off of the standard "Big Three" settings, and double down on the fantasy elements and pseudo-Ptolemaic cosmography.

I would think the whole "wooden galleons in space" would be enough to remind one that it's fantasy and not sci-fi.

i dont know about that im pretty sure treasure planet had them and that was still sci-fi.