So from the other thread...
Let's pretend they were taking ideas about doing 5e Spelljammer. What would you like to change/keep? What assumptions about the standard game worlds need to change? Or do you leave it as is and just do a rules conversion?
Space - is it vaccuum or not? It impacts the game in subtle ways.
Cultures - Imperial Elves, Scro, etc. Which cultures are spacefaring? Do you create templates for what your worlds SHOULD be like with spacefaring as part of it? I said fuck it, and Waterdeep and Calimport are Spelljamming ports. You can't hide that kinda shit.
Crystal Spheres - Keep or toss?
Magitech-level - Smokepowder? Or up the ante with Fireball guns, and lightning rifles using some "magical crystals" for ammo-packs? It would take little effort to go Fantasy Star Wars.
Construction rules - Spelljammer dodged the issue much like Star Wars does on how Spelljammers (hyperdrives) are created: you can only purchase them in-game from Arcane (or you steal one from an existing ship). What propels ships now? Do you need the huge crews? What kinds of ships are we talking about?
Everything else is window dressing. You could simulate a lot of things like Air Envelopes etc. through the use of magi-tech and keep the cold hard vacuum. Of course it would be a little grittier.
I hate the idea of galleons cruising in the void of space, I much prefer Dragonstar. Therefore, I would ditch both crystal spheres and galleon space travel. If galleons have to be kept, I would have something reminding of Lovecraft: in his stories there are some creatures that fly across the void, with the vague suggestion it is in a sort of mystical dimension. So I would have a travel based on Astral Projection, where boat and crew are projected in Astral, travel at the speed of thought, and then materialize on another world (no orbital travel). Destination would not require to know where the stars and planets are*; but knowing about a certain world somewhere, and having items, mystical rhymes and verses, etc. as a beacon to reach it. Everything that normally happens in space, would instead happen in the Astral plane. This way the campaign would remain entirely fantasy. I would of course include Lovecraft's moon-beasts in their black vessels...
(*: in fact, it might be based on Astrology rather than Astronomy! So a ship can travel to the right destination -i.e. with Astral Projection- only when the stars are in the right alignment.)
When Spelljammer topics come up I always drag in a mention of Monte Cook's 'Dark Space' setting for Rolemaster/Spacemaster.
It's decidedly darker, weirder and grittier than Spelljammer... without being 'grimdark' or 'gothic'.
Because I liked that setting so much whenever I've had the urge to try Spelljammer I find myself wanting to make it a more distinct space fantasy setting and lessen the presence of the iconic D&D settings like Greyhawk.
without the spheres its really not spelljamer anymore
The bizarro physics has to be kept. To me it was part of the charm of the setting.
Space boats, crystal spheres, wildspace being warm, air envelopes, explosive pholgiston, even the stupid hippo people are what make spelljammer what it is for me.
Quote from: Turanil;821772I hate the idea of galleons cruising in the void of space, I much prefer Dragonstar. Therefore, I would ditch both crystal spheres and galleon space travel. If galleons have to be kept, I would have something reminding of Lovecraft: in his stories there are some creatures that fly across the void, with the vague suggestion it is in a sort of mystical dimension. So I would have a travel based on Astral Projection, where boat and crew are projected in Astral, travel at the speed of thought, and then materialize on another world (no orbital travel). Destination would not require to know where the stars and planets are*; but knowing about a certain world somewhere, and having items, mystical rhymes and verses, etc. as a beacon to reach it. Everything that normally happens in space, would instead happen in the Astral plane. This way the campaign would remain entirely fantasy. I would of course include Lovecraft's moon-beasts in their black vessels...
(*: in fact, it might be based on Astrology rather than Astronomy! So a ship can travel to the right destination -i.e. with Astral Projection- only when the stars are in the right alignment.)
i dont really like the idea of the astral plane being used for reaching alternate material planes that should stay the plane of shadows job.
Quote from: Turanil;821772If galleons have to be kept, I would have something reminding of Lovecraft: in his stories there are some creatures that fly across the void, with the vague suggestion it is in a sort of mystical dimension. So I would have a travel based on Astral Projection, where boat and crew are projected in Astral, travel at the speed of thought, and then materialize on another world (no orbital travel). Destination would not require to know where the stars and planets are*; but knowing about a certain world somewhere, and having items, mystical rhymes and verses, etc. as a beacon to reach it. Everything that normally happens in space, would instead happen in the Astral plane. This way the campaign would remain entirely fantasy. I would of course include Lovecraft's moon-beasts in their black vessels...
Sounds a lot like the Astral Sea of 4e that combined Wildspace and the Astral Plane, with Spelljammer vessels plying "the spheres" (which is how "outer planes" i.e. other worlds appeared in the Astral Sea). But then I strongly feel the cosmology was the best thing about 4e.
The Lovecraft bits you've mentioned (I'm sorely unfamiliar with his Dreamlands stuff) would make fantastic additions to this framework.
Quote from: AxesnOrcs;821864Space boats, crystal spheres, wildspace being warm, air envelopes, explosive pholgiston, even the stupid hippo people are what make spelljammer what it is for me.
Exactly. Spelljammer isn't just "D&D in Space". Its so much more. Just making another setting of D&D in Space would not be Spelljammer unless you keep its quirks.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;821936Exactly. Spelljammer isn't just "D&D in Space". Its so much more. Just making another setting of D&D in Space would not be Spelljammer unless you keep its quirks.
So Spelljammer is definitely not for me. I bought the boxed set long ago, but then quickly sold it on ebay...
Quote from: Simlasa;821787When Spelljammer topics come up I always drag in a mention of Monte Cook's 'Dark Space' setting for Rolemaster/Spacemaster.
It's decidedly darker, weirder and grittier than Spelljammer... without being 'grimdark' or 'gothic'.
Because I liked that setting so much whenever I've had the urge to try Spelljammer I find myself wanting to make it a more distinct space fantasy setting and lessen the presence of the iconic D&D settings like Greyhawk.
Tell me more! I know nothing of this!
Quote from: Turanil;821772I hate the idea of galleons cruising in the void of space, I much prefer Dragonstar.
I like Dragonstar as a concept. I own all the books for it... have never run it. It would be too bait-and-switch for my players. I'd have to tell them upfront and frankly at this point in 5e I think Dragonstar could be done with a little elbow-grease.
Quote from: Turanil;821772Therefore, I would ditch both crystal spheres and galleon space travel. If galleons have to be kept, I would have something reminding of Lovecraft: in his stories there are some creatures that fly across the void, with the vague suggestion it is in a sort of mystical dimension. So I would have a travel based on Astral Projection, where boat and crew are projected in Astral, travel at the speed of thought, and then materialize on another world (no orbital travel).
Without going full Lovecraft (which is again, layering another strong flavor on top of Spelljammer which is it's own thing) - this opens up a fantastic possibility. So Galleons-whatever exist. But their "hyperspace" jumps are through the Astral Plane. This allows a more Gith presence - and grounds the game in a solidly standard D&D milieu (did I just write that word? /velch). Everything that exists in Spelljammer could easily be transported to this concept - with the added bonus of Planescape! Heady stuff!
Quote from: Turanil;821772*: in fact, it might be based on Astrology rather than Astronomy! So a ship can travel to the right destination -i.e. with Astral Projection- only when the stars are in the right alignment.)
You sir, are on to something here with this idea. I agree this is closer in concept to the 4e notion... but it could be made to work. Sure it's not the exact thing you're proposing, but I think it would work and could be done well. Hmm.
I would want it to keep much closer to the original than the ideas I'm seeing put forth here-- Wildspace, wonky gravity, and all. I'd handle it a lot like Pathfinder's solar system surrounding Golarion, except with Spelljammer physics.
My idea would be that it would come with one Crystal Sphere, detailed with seven or eight themed planets, and then hints about nearby Spheres. I'd maybe ditch the Sphere concept and the Phlogiston, and simply have systems be really far apart.
The core sphere would contain all of the standard D&D madness plus the Spelljammer madness, but the "main" planet would be pretty standard Europe + Asia with elves and dwarves, while things like civilized lizardmen and the kreen races would be from other planets in the system.
Quote from: tenbones;821746So from the other thread...
Let's pretend they were taking ideas about doing 5e Spelljammer. What would you like to change/keep? What assumptions about the standard game worlds need to change? Or do you leave it as is and just do a rules conversion?
Space - is it vaccuum or not? It impacts the game in subtle ways.
Cultures - Imperial Elves, Scro, etc. Which cultures are spacefaring? Do you create templates for what your worlds SHOULD be like with spacefaring as part of it? I said fuck it, and Waterdeep and Calimport are Spelljamming ports. You can't hide that kinda shit.
Crystal Spheres - Keep or toss?
Magitech-level - Smokepowder? Or up the ante with Fireball guns, and lightning rifles using some "magical crystals" for ammo-packs? It would take little effort to go Fantasy Star Wars.
Construction rules - Spelljammer dodged the issue much like Star Wars does on how Spelljammers (hyperdrives) are created: you can only purchase them in-game from Arcane (or you steal one from an existing ship). What propels ships now? Do you need the huge crews? What kinds of ships are we talking about?
Everything else is window dressing. You could simulate a lot of things like Air Envelopes etc. through the use of magi-tech and keep the cold hard vacuum. Of course it would be a little grittier.
Space is not vacuum, but has no breathable air.
Cultures should be spacefaring variants of D&D cultures.
No crystal spheres.
Definitely magitech, if not outright tech-tech.
I don't really care much about construction rules. I suppose there should be some there, for the people who like that sort of thing; but there should also be lots of pre-made templates for those who don't.
most of those things are fine but the moment you take out the spheres it ceases to be spelljamer
nothing wrong with a different space setting but dont call it something its not
kinda like how there is nothing wrong with 4e style systems just dont say its d&d
I would prefer it as DnD in space. Ditch the crystal spheres and fly among the stars. Get rid of the weird gravity planes and just let down be down. Keep the air envelopes and temperate temperatures.
Instead of having spelljammer helms drain the spellcaster completely, let the spellcaster power the helm by expending individual spell slots.
Define what the crew actually does on the ship.
Better system for planet creation.
Quote from: Old One Eye;822231I would prefer it as DnD in space. Ditch the crystal spheres and fly among the stars. Get rid of the weird gravity planes and just let down be down. Keep the air envelopes and temperate temperatures.
Instead of having spelljammer helms drain the spellcaster completely, let the spellcaster power the helm by expending individual spell slots.
Define what the crew actually does on the ship.
Better system for planet creation.
im not familar with the gravity system but is it anything like the elemental planes of air and water
Quote from: tuypo1;822234im not familar with the gravity system but is it anything like the elemental planes of air and water
A 'gravity plane' goes through the middle of a ship. You can stand on the ship's upper decks normally. Gravity flips below the plane such that it is upside down in the lower decks and the hull.
While kind of a nifty visual, it crops up all the time and is a PITA to adjudicate. More trouble than it is worth.
Breathable air and wind. Ain't no ship, if it ain't sail.
Bonus for real cannons.
Quote from: Old One Eye;822238A 'gravity plane' goes through the middle of a ship. You can stand on the ship's upper decks normally. Gravity flips below the plane such that it is upside down in the lower decks and the hull.
While kind of a nifty visual, it crops up all the time and is a PITA to adjudicate. More trouble than it is worth.
interesting
It's why ship-design in Spelljammer often had decks with crews and platforms that mirrored the top-side of the ship (effectively making it have no topside per se).
The rules were the larger gravity plane took control of the smaller gravity planes - so smaller ships had to conform to the 2d plane of the larger. It wasn't as big as a PITA as it sounds after you played a few combats. The hex-scale for ship combat was 1-hex=440-yards. So the whole gravity plane mechanic only comes into play when you're within relative close proximity (I think twice the length of a ship - or the Air Envelope of the larger ship).
It also made for adventuring on mining asteroids interesting.
Quote from: tenbones;822449It's why ship-design in Spelljammer often had decks with crews and platforms that mirrored the top-side of the ship (effectively making it have no topside per se).
The rules were the larger gravity plane took control of the smaller gravity planes - so smaller ships had to conform to the 2d plane of the larger. It wasn't as big as a PITA as it sounds after you played a few combats. The hex-scale for ship combat was 1-hex=440-yards. So the whole gravity plane mechanic only comes into play when you're within relative close proximity (I think twice the length of a ship - or the Air Envelope of the larger ship).
It also made for adventuring on mining asteroids interesting.
Gravity plane wonkiness is part of the charm of Spelljammer.
Quote from: AxesnOrcs;822461Gravity plane wonkiness is part of the charm of Spelljammer.
I don't really think it's that wonky. I think as written - it's easily understood and played with. I guess my question is - is it a Spelljammer Sacred Cow?
Look at Pundits view (I don't pretend to know how much Spelljammer Pundit has played) - but his, and others here, have outlined some changes they'd like to see that frankly sounds a lot like Dragonstar.
One of the things about Spelljammer is it doesn't require changing their standard D&D worlds much. If anything Spelljammer assumes the standard Krynn, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms societies as "low-brow" or "provincial" societies. Part of the charm of Spelljammer is being a badass and coming into Spelljammer society and experiencing the culture shock. But nothing intrinsically changes about how you operate per se.
If we were to do away with the sailing ships - and that's arbitrary, you can put a Spelljamming helm on a 1-ton boulder (though that would be dumb) then we're talking Star Wars like space ships flying around in vacuum and shooting ray-guns etc. And we all know 5e can easily support that. But the reality is if you introduce that stuff into your Realms game, it will have huge impacts to the cultures, since swinging a sword is generally inferior to and energy rifle, right? The question is: would it still be Spelljammer? I don't think so - but I'm intrigued by it.
Quote from: tenbones;822472I don't really think it's that wonky. I think as written - it's easily understood and played with. I guess my question is - is it a Spelljammer Sacred Cow?
Look at Pundits view (I don't pretend to know how much Spelljammer Pundit has played) - but his, and others here, have outlined some changes they'd like to see that frankly sounds a lot like Dragonstar.
One of the things about Spelljammer is it doesn't require changing their standard D&D worlds much. If anything Spelljammer assumes the standard Krynn, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms societies as "low-brow" or "provincial" societies. Part of the charm of Spelljammer is being a badass and coming into Spelljammer society and experiencing the culture shock. But nothing intrinsically changes about how you operate per se.
If we were to do away with the sailing ships - and that's arbitrary, you can put a Spelljamming helm on a 1-ton boulder (though that would be dumb) then we're talking Star Wars like space ships flying around in vacuum and shooting ray-guns etc. And we all know 5e can easily support that. But the reality is if you introduce that stuff into your Realms game, it will have huge impacts to the cultures, since swinging a sword is generally inferior to and energy rifle, right? The question is: would it still be Spelljammer? I don't think so - but I'm intrigued by it.
My feelings are that all the spelljammer physics aren't necessarily sacred cows, but they are the things that make it spelljammer rather than dragonstar or star wars or star trek or rifts.
I like gravity planes, but their removal probably wouldn't bother me personally, but the removal of sailing ships in SPAAAACE and magical chairs that can make boulders and house fly would.
Quote from: tenbones;822449It's why ship-design in Spelljammer often had decks with crews and platforms that mirrored the top-side of the ship (effectively making it have no topside per se).
The rules were the larger gravity plane took control of the smaller gravity planes - so smaller ships had to conform to the 2d plane of the larger. It wasn't as big as a PITA as it sounds after you played a few combats. The hex-scale for ship combat was 1-hex=440-yards. So the whole gravity plane mechanic only comes into play when you're within relative close proximity (I think twice the length of a ship - or the Air Envelope of the larger ship).
It also made for adventuring on mining asteroids interesting.
For a one shot or short campaign, sure it is a nifty thing.
For a full campaign, it is more trouble than it is worth. Every single boarding action involves it. Most dungeons in space will involve it. Players will game the gravity mechanics for advantage leading to the DM retaliating in due course.
Gravity plane simply becomes a significant part of the game that will constantly be interacted with, which I do not personally feel is sufficiently interesting to be such a large element of the game.
Quote from: tenbones;822472I don't really think it's that wonky. I think as written - it's easily understood and played with. I guess my question is - is it a Spelljammer Sacred Cow?
Look at Pundits view (I don't pretend to know how much Spelljammer Pundit has played) - but his, and others here, have outlined some changes they'd like to see that frankly sounds a lot like Dragonstar.
One of the things about Spelljammer is it doesn't require changing their standard D&D worlds much. If anything Spelljammer assumes the standard Krynn, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms societies as "low-brow" or "provincial" societies. Part of the charm of Spelljammer is being a badass and coming into Spelljammer society and experiencing the culture shock. But nothing intrinsically changes about how you operate per se.
If we were to do away with the sailing ships - and that's arbitrary, you can put a Spelljamming helm on a 1-ton boulder (though that would be dumb) then we're talking Star Wars like space ships flying around in vacuum and shooting ray-guns etc. And we all know 5e can easily support that. But the reality is if you introduce that stuff into your Realms game, it will have huge impacts to the cultures, since swinging a sword is generally inferior to and energy rifle, right? The question is: would it still be Spelljammer? I don't think so - but I'm intrigued by it.
i dont know enough about the gravity planes or have any expirence with them to know if they should be sacred cows but at the moment im going to say you can safely take them out. HOWEVER if they do take them out it would be vital to have them in as an optional rule
so yeah as far as i can tell so far the crystal spheres are the only cow.
reminds me of a game i played once where all the players were cows fighting against the dyson cow surrounding our planet.
I'm just interested in the "how does it work" side of things. I want it to just be magic: the boat flies, it has magic gravity, you don't need to explain how the cosmology works. I want it to be D&D in space: focus on what the races are like, on cool planets, not on trying to create some kind of 'fantasy physics'.
Quote from: Old One Eye;822495For a one shot or short campaign, sure it is a nifty thing.
For a full campaign, it is more trouble than it is worth. Every single boarding action involves it. Most dungeons in space will involve it. Players will game the gravity mechanics for advantage leading to the DM retaliating in due course.
Gravity plane simply becomes a significant part of the game that will constantly be interacted with, which I do not personally feel is sufficiently interesting to be such a large element of the game.
The players in my SJ campaign would disagree with you vehemently.
One of the longest and most successful -- and most-fondly remembered by all involved, still discussed among us 20 years later -- campaigns I ever ran in AD&D 2e was in the SJ universe. The crystal spheres, gravity planes, spelljamming helms, etc., were the elements they loved most about the setting. And they were all skeptics at the start.
Those things served as immediate reminders that this is a fantasy universe, not a science fiction universe with some D&D races thrown in. And in actual play, they worked out fine for us.
If SJ were brought back in an official capacity, I'd hope that none of those things were changed.
What needs to go are the ties to the groundling worlds of Greyhawk, the Realms, and Dragonlance. Those were a distraction, and kept SJ from becoming its own thing.
I say ditch any attempt to make it more sci-fi, take the focus off of the standard "Big Three" settings, and double down on the fantasy elements and pseudo-Ptolemaic cosmography.
I would think the whole "wooden galleons in space" would be enough to remind one that it's fantasy and not sci-fi.
i dont know about that im pretty sure treasure planet had them and that was still sci-fi.
Quote from: tuypo1;823008i dont know about that im pretty sure treasure planet had them and that was still sci-fi.
Space fantasy, then.
i dont think one could even call treasure planet that
it has been a long time since i have seen the movie though (the gba game was great fun if anybody sees a copy they should check it out)
Quote from: RPGPundit;823003I would think the whole "wooden galleons in space" would be enough to remind one that it's fantasy and not sci-fi.
It would, but I don't think it necessarily would go far enough.
There's really very little way the magic and biology of the D&D game could plausibly exist in a universe built on physical laws more or less identical to our own. Building an "outer space" and physics around the assumptions of D&D, rather than trying to patch them onto a "realistic" universe, I think really helped break my players out of thinking like moderns and more like denizens of a medieval(ish) worldview.
Plus, they make for fun and interesting tactical scenarios.
Well, to each their own on this one, I guess. To me it always felt like a distraction.
Quote from: RPGPundit;823641Well, to each their own on this one, I guess. To me it always felt like a distraction.
Oh I'll go right out and say it: When I first saw Spelljammer and cracked open the boxset and realized it was Galleons in space... I thought it was the most stupid thing ever.
The reality is once you gulp down this notion, galleons specifically are generally used only because theyr'e representative of the cultures that most D&D worlds contain. Spelljamming races that are native to Wildspace have different designs - which most groundling (standard D&D world cultures) upgrade to.
But of course it's how much of it can you stomach. I found once you started playing it made a lot of cohesive sense and turned very much into a Star Wars/Star Trek swashbuckling style game in my hands. Whether that was by intent or the subconscious of my melon... I grudgingly came to love Spelljammer, now I'm an unabashed fan.
But to your point, Pundit - doing a Dragonstar style game sounds very appealing.
Quote from: tenbones;823773Oh I'll go right out and say it: When I first saw Spelljammer and cracked open the boxset and realized it was Galleons in space... I thought it was the most stupid thing ever.
The reality is once you gulp down this notion, galleons specifically are generally used only because theyr'e representative of the cultures that most D&D worlds contain. Spelljamming races that are native to Wildspace have different designs - which most groundling (standard D&D world cultures) upgrade to.
But of course it's how much of it can you stomach. I found once you started playing it made a lot of cohesive sense and turned very much into a Star Wars/Star Trek swashbuckling style game in my hands. Whether that was by intent or the subconscious of my melon... I grudgingly came to love Spelljammer, now I'm an unabashed fan.
But to your point, Pundit - doing a Dragonstar style game sounds very appealing.
interesting
Quote from: tenbones;823773Oh I'll go right out and say it: When I first saw Spelljammer and cracked open the boxset and realized it was Galleons in space... I thought it was the most stupid thing ever.
The reality is once you gulp down this notion, galleons specifically are generally used only because theyr'e representative of the cultures that most D&D worlds contain. Spelljamming races that are native to Wildspace have different designs - which most groundling (standard D&D world cultures) upgrade to.
But of course it's how much of it can you stomach. I found once you started playing it made a lot of cohesive sense and turned very much into a Star Wars/Star Trek swashbuckling style game in my hands. Whether that was by intent or the subconscious of my melon... I grudgingly came to love Spelljammer, now I'm an unabashed fan.
But to your point, Pundit - doing a Dragonstar style game sounds very appealing.
Sort of the same here. I didn't even look at SJ stuff for years, because I assumed from its subtitle that it was a Dragonstar-like setting. It wasn't until years later when I found a used copy of the core boxed set and browsed through it that I became a fan.
That said, I think it would work better as a flintlock-fantasy or muskets & magic level of tech than as a default medieval one. But that's probably just because I'm embroiled in the Powder Mage trilogy right now.
i dont know about rifles but the way i see it if you have ships you need cannons
Okay... totally out of coincidence, my players have asked me to run Spelljammer.
My current campaign hit a weird-spot and my players got together and said "our characters would realistically go their separate ways (/queue Journey), so they propose I run Spelljammer...
And so here we are.
That's what I get for starting this thread...
Quote from: tuypo1;824185i dont know about rifles but the way i see it if you have ships you need cannons
Spelljammer has cannons in the main box.
Quote from: Old One Eye;824517Spelljammer has cannons in the main box.
awesome