Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
Personally, I find "all the legends are true" to be the death knell of any memorable fantasy creature. The more specific, the more memorable it often seems.

Despite the noisy "down with all things Biblical" fans attempts to make it a debunked myth in VtM, the extremely specific Curse of Cain myth made its vampires feel extremely distinctive from random bloodsuckers. Being able to use epithets like "The First Murderer" and "The Third Mortal" is evocative.

I agree that V:TM knocked it out of the park with the Caine origin story. I read the Anne Rice novels after V:TM, and her origin story seemed pedestrian by comparison. There's something about the biblical allusions in V:TM that hits on a deep level, even to my humanist mind.

Yet, there's also some appeal to the true origin story being lost to history. In my own musings, I have a toolkit approach of several different vampire origin stories. The GM can choose one as definitive and leave it at that, or you can have multiple "origin cults" each trying to prove it's version of the truth is the right one. I envision a grand campaign where the players try to find the Truth, like peeling away the layers to a mystery. I think that packs a serious punch as well, but in a different way.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 10:17:50 PM
Ah, necromancers. One thing I did with my necromancers was make them a secret society that any vampire could join. I included an Anita Blake-inspired provision where vampires could join other bloodlines by swearing a magical oath to a patron of that bloodline.

That makes sense (Necromancer as What You Do, rather than What You Are.) But this was built on a B/X chassis which doesn't have an X and Y axes. I'll probably ditch B/X, there's so much of it that doesn't work for this idea.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 22, 2023, 01:21:52 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
Personally, I find "all the legends are true" to be the death knell of any memorable fantasy creature. The more specific, the more memorable it often seems.

Despite the noisy "down with all things Biblical" fans attempts to make it a debunked myth in VtM, the extremely specific Curse of Cain myth made its vampires feel extremely distinctive from random bloodsuckers. Being able to use epithets like "The First Murderer" and "The Third Mortal" is evocative.

I agree that V:TM knocked it out of the park with the Caine origin story. I read the Anne Rice novels after V:TM, and her origin story seemed pedestrian by comparison. There's something about the biblical allusions in V:TM that hits on a deep level, even to my humanist mind.

Yet, there's also some appeal to the true origin story being lost to history. In my own musings, I have a toolkit approach of several different vampire origin stories. The GM can choose one as definitive and leave it at that, or you can have multiple "origin cults" each trying to prove it's version of the truth is the right one. I envision a grand campaign where the players try to find the Truth, like peeling away the layers to a mystery. I think that packs a serious punch as well, but in a different way.

I think the trick is that players often have problems with metagaming lore. In universe the Caine myth WAS supposed to be virtually unknown/deep lore that only vampire scholars and those willing to go to the ends of the earth could obtain pieces of.

But the original writers also had a book to sell and cool ideas they wanted to share so they actually spelled out all the hidden lore for the readers and, the majority being emo metagaming 90's teens acted as if their characters had full knowledge of everything in the books.

I included multiple choice answets to all the deep mysteries of my own fantasy setting book. I know which of the multiple choice answers I consider true, and write my material so it doesn't contradict those (while it may contradict other answers), but I want to leave it up to individual GMs what their answers are and thus deny the metagaming impulse a "one true way" to follow.

I would suggest something similar for a brainstormed "better" vampire for an RPG context (which doesn't have the same needs as in a purely literary one).

Even if there's only one vampire template, offer up three-ish compelling orgins for the GM to pick from as "the truth" (they don't have to be earth shaking or invoke big names, but something with enough meat to dig into) just because that does a number on the metagaming of lore that can really impact rpg campaigns in ways it won't affect a novel or script.

* * * *

Related to that, another aspect that I think helped make VtM more compelling was its satellite lore and associated monsters; Blood Magic, Ghouls, Ghasts, Gargoyles, Ghosts, Zombies, Revenants, Dhampirs, Demons, Hellhounds, mutant sewer animals, twisted abominations of the Tzmisce, the counter of True Faith, the Hedge Magic remnants (prior to Mage, the Tremere embraced vampirism because mortal magic was dying and Hedge Magic was the scraps still left by the modern day), shadowy Vatican and government organizations hunting vampires; all of those things could be part of a VtM-only campaign via various elements of the larger VtM lore.

Even without the other splats of the larger World of Darkness, there was already a "World of Darkness" fleshed out within it all spreading out like a web from vampires.

Beyond the Caine lore, that's also what helped cement VtM in memories. It wasn't just the night to night struggles of urban vampires and their factions against each other. There was deeper and darker things connected to it that provided a wide variety of potential campaigns.

* * * *

Semi-unrelated to that, but relevant to RPG design, is a very important question; is the vampire being designed intended for a vampire-centric setting (i.e. PCs are expected to be vampires) or are they intended for a broader urban fantasy approach (i.e. one PC is a vampire, one is a witch, one is a dhampir, one is some Frankenstein's monster)?

This is important because one of the biggest lessons learned from cross-splat play in the WoD was how annoying it was to have a mixed party with a vampire in it.

It's one thing to have the allergy to the sun be so severe that even the reflected sun off the moon potentially give a vampire "sunburn" in a game where all the PCs are expected to be vampires. It's quite another to try and work with that when most of the party is diurnal by nature and waiting 12+ hours daily just so the vampire PC can participate gets tiresome quickly.

Let's try to avoid repeating that mistake if the goal is for this brainstormed vampire to be usable as a PC in a broader urban fantasy context.

Dracula only lost his powers during the day.

Blade, Buffy and Underworld vampires only burned from direct sun (and so could be indoors, in alleyways, covered in blankets, living in Seattle or parts of England, full biker gear with heavily tinted helmets, etc).

In addition to only being burned by direct sun, Vampire Diaries had "daylight rings" that were relatively easy to acquire (but also acted as a point of vulnerability in some plots).

Basically, if the parties are likely to be mixed then the sunlight vulnerability should be an inconvenience, not a game stopper. Figuring out which approach to that is best is more up in the air.

For example, if you want vampire-only games to be possible where daylight is a major threat, then retaining a severe sun allergy but including an item that is relatively easy to acquire in a broader campaign (ex. TVD's daylight rings had to be created and attuned to the wearer by witches) might be the way to go.

Alternately, if werewolves can also only turn at night, then perhaps putting a similar restriction on magic in general would be an option, making all the supernaturals need to wait for darkness to become active supernaturally (making the vampires' extra vulnerability into an edge case when operating close to dawn... the others only lose their powers, the vampire could burn).

There are many potential approaches, but offering at least one would be a good plan.

I think your praise of a biblical-based origin is biased by you growing up with a Christian background. There are other religions in the world with foundations that could be used with the same emotional impact for people who grew up with those backgrounds.

For example, the Hindu Yamaraja is the king of the underworld and the first man to die. You could use him as the origin of vampires. It won't have the same emotional impact if you're not Hindu. Substitute another mythological figure like Kali, Sekhmet, Ereshkigal, Susanoo, Lucifer, etc. Everlasting had its bloodlines descended from different mythical and historical figures.

But more importantly, after WW drew Cain as a goth pretty boy I can't take the idea seriously. https://www.somethingawful.com/dungeons-and-dragons/vampire-artwork-montreal/11/

That said, I'm not an antichrist who is pathologically opposed to having figures of Abrahamic folklore showup. I had this idea for groups of vampires descended from Lilith and one of her several consorts like Cain, Samael, etc. All these families descend from Lilith, but distinguish themselves by which father they descended from: the House of Cain, the House of Samael, etc.

And I also had ideas for Merovingian vampires who claim descent from Jesus Christ and maybe his apostles too. Yes, I know Dan Brown made that up but I think it would be funny if in the story Dan Brown wrote it as a misinformation tool to discredit people trying to make the truth public.

The above two ideas make use of the idea of hereditary vampires, like those purebloods in Blade, or the legacies in Netflix's First Kill. They were born vampires who knew what they were from the moment they could know anything, never going through a normal human life like the turned/brides/grooms. The children of Lilith are the direct biological descendants of Lilith and her consorts, and can turn mortals into their brides/grooms with a lesser form of vampirism. The Merovingians are the same with Jesus and Mary Magdalene, while his apostles were the first vampire grooms who were turned at the first mass when Jesus gave them his own divine blood. That's what he was referring to when he said they'd be present at his second coming, but the Church covered it up after being horrified to discover the truth.

The Vatican hates the Merovingians more than any other vampires and was responsible for nearly wiping them out multiple times. This is ironic, as the Vatican employs antichrist candidates to hunt them. (Satan has this whole scheme going on where he's impregnated lots of women with potential antichrists, according to the official story).

I love the blasphemous irony of it all. No offense.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 09:39:29 AM
I think your praise of a biblical-based origin is biased by you growing up with a Christian background. There are other religions in the world with foundations that could be used with the same emotional impact for people who grew up with those backgrounds.

Except 90% of the people you'd be writing the game for grew up in de facto Christian countries, soaked in that Mythology. I'm not even religious, but Christian mythos resonates with me by sheer dint of where I was born.

If the idea is to have "emotional impact for those who grew up with those backgrounds" then a Biblical-based origin is in fact the way to go.

I still find it too provincial

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 11:28:43 AM
I still find it too provincial

Then the bias is yours.

How is the mythology of Christians more provincial than that of Hinduism? What you actually mean is, you don't find it exotic.

Ok. I see nothing wrong with trying for something more exotic to switch things up.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 01:32:37 PM
As far as my own attempts go, there are multiple avenues I could explore. For example:

No strains: Every monster, or at least every PC, is unique. There are few to no recurring strains with consistent traits. This is the approach taken by Actual Fucking Monsters.

Single strain: The setting only has a single strain of vampirism. At most, there may be a handful of substrains with minor variations. This is how WitchCraft and Nephilim goes about it. This has the benefit of simplicity, as you don't have much to keep track of.

Multiple sub-strains: The setting has a single strain of vampirism, but there are multiple substrains with variant powers and weaknesses. The divergence from the baseline strain is generally small. The substrains don't necessarily have a singular origin, each one may have a separate origin in time and space, but they follow the same template regardless. VTM and its heartbreakers take this approach. This has the benefit of adding additional customizability and unpredictability while retaining a fair amount of simplicity.

Multiple strains: The setting has multiple strains of vampirism with wildly different properties from one another. Strains may not even resemble what we stereotypically associate with vampires. Substrains are rare or absent. Nightlife uses this approach, representing werewolves, demons, wights and so forth within the same framework as stereotypical vampires. This adds more options while keeping some amount of simplicity.

Multiple strains and substrains: An extension of the above, the setting has a plethora of strains and substrains. To my knowledge, the few examples of this are limited to movies or prose fiction like Captain Kronos, Blackcoat Press' Vampire Almanac books, or the American Vampire comics. This approach is very complicated and I'm not surprised nobody has tried it in the ttrpg scene aside from relatively short toolkits like GURPS Blood Types, Feed or Vampire City.

Each choice will have different pros and cons, requiring different approaches to the worldbuilding and game design. In any case, this choice needs to be made before you do any detailed worldbuilding.

Which of these would you like to see me tackle?

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 22, 2023, 11:09:00 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 09:39:29 AM
I think your praise of a biblical-based origin is biased by you growing up with a Christian background. There are other religions in the world with foundations that could be used with the same emotional impact for people who grew up with those backgrounds.

Except 90% of the people you'd be writing the game for grew up in de facto Christian countries, soaked in that Mythology. I'm not even religious, but Christian mythos resonates with me by sheer dint of where I was born.

If the idea is to have "emotional impact for those who grew up with those backgrounds" then a Biblical-based origin is in fact the way to go.

Pretty much.

In terms of demographics, 57% of the global population identifies as Christian, Muslim or Jewish (i.e. recognize Abrahamic religious elements like Cain/Abel).

The next largest religious affiliation is just over 15% who identify as unaffiliated (including agnostics and atheists) who probably grew up a society where one of the Abrahamic religions shaped the dominant culture.

Only then at just under 15% is Hinduism, then Buddism at 6.6%, then Folk Religion at 5.5% and every other religion on Earth is sitting at about 1% combined.

If you want emotional impact in terms of myth and legend, going with something Old Testament (particularly Genesis through Exodus) starts you at 6-in-10 of the global population and, as stated by Grognard, upwards of 9-in-10 of the people you'll actually be marketing to.

Only in the Wokeville and it's satellites will you find any concentration of non-Abrahamic believers as a potential audience and they'll almost invariably be in the unaffiliated category who will probably be offended if the vampires aren't actually transsparkleponies so why even bother trying to appeal to them?

The only other really viable approach unless you're marketing in India would be to invoke things from the past of Western Civilization; Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Greco-Roman or Norse (maybe Celtic) myths as your foundation point.

You don't have to like it, but pretending that all those other religions hold equal weight with the Abrahamic faiths in popular consciousness is just your self-styled elitism showing (ie. if the masses like it, it can't possibly be good).

There's a market for Antiplot structured films too, but that box office tops out at a couple million dollars, not the potential billion+ of something with mass market appeal. The RPG market is already so small that unless it's a pure vanity project (which is fine if it is and acknowledge it) you should probably be aiming for broader appeal.

Ok.

I ask again: Which approach would you like to see me tackle first?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 01:03:20 PM
Ok.

I ask again: Which approach would you like to see me tackle first?

I don't have a dog in that fight, other than that I think "strain" is already a bit of a loaded term by associating with a science-based infection instead of its more typically supernatural roots.

If you want it to be a strain, then make it something that behaves like a blood-born pathogen (i.e. contact with vampiric blood is sufficient to turn you into a vampire and the only way to avoid turning someone you feed on is either to feed on their blood indirectly or kill the person you're drinking from so they don't turn. Most new vampires arise from incidents where the vampire is unable to confirm a kill and the person stubbornly clings to life long enough to turn.

Of course, being science-based, unless its loosy-goosy comic book science that allows radiation to give people superpowers, a lot of their more supernatural gifts (and weaknesses) should probably not apply.

Let me check wiktionary... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/strain

After reading that entry, I decided I'm gonna keep calling them strains, whether it's a scifi pathogen, magical disease, alien nanomachine infection, contagious demonic possession, transmissible curse, or whatever.

EDIT: Not to discount your point about it being clinical. That's my intent. Anything else sounds twee or mall goth pretentious.

Re: Vampires & Religion

Really different vampire myths (non-Dracula) do exist

I've never seen them implemented anywhere except as window dressing, where they change the name and some "powers" but the vampire is vanquished by the usual means of Holy Water, Holy Symbol. Which I'll inform you is something that not only comes from Abrahamic religions, it's a Christian thing.

This is because  90% of the RPG market IS in the western world, and in places like Japan you also see how the Dracula-Type vampires have infiltrated the popular culture.

I compiled a list of different vampires around the world, I'll have to search it but I'll gladly share it here (again, already did in another thread a year or two ago).

I AM planing on implementing them with different mechanics powers and weaknesses for my game about hunting monsters. But it will also include the typical Dracula-Type.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 22, 2023, 03:51:16 PMReally different vampire myths (non-Dracula) do exist

Care to share? I mean Im aware of lots of undead myths, but very few Vampiric specific myths in what they embody. A Juan-Shi is technically a hopping vampire, but is moreso a zombie for instance.

Like this?

https://www.amazon.com/Vampire-Almanac-Complete-History/dp/1578597196