Inspired by the VTM thread and a post from our own BoxCrayonTales pointing to a write up he did : https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ7Nye5r0Dhm8Cp7D81stTbAWsFrl1Gxg7dpmRo5DRNJAtDcyZL0FOwAfNid4-r2yVFSLgATKj4cs89/pub (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ7Nye5r0Dhm8Cp7D81stTbAWsFrl1Gxg7dpmRo5DRNJAtDcyZL0FOwAfNid4-r2yVFSLgATKj4cs89/pub)
So, there's a Bloodlines build, IMHO each line should have some unique power/weakness, also in the write up there's no mechanical info, so let's try and do that for the OSR.
Powers:
Animal Control – bats, wolves, rats, etc.
Charm –
Climb walls like a spider –
Control of the elements – Wind, rain and other natural phenomena.
Create darkness –
Curse –
Flight – Fly without any outside influence.
Fog people's minds (improved implant a whole set of memories) –
Immortal – The power to never age and recover from almost any injury.
Intangibility –
Invisibility –
Magic –
Misting – Turning into mist
Paralyze –
Read memories of it's victims –
Shapeshifting – taking on the appearance of other people or changing into a bat.
Telekinesis – Manipulate objects/matter with the mind.
Telepathy – Vampires can sometimes read/sense another person's thoughts, communicate with them mentally and/or influence their minds/thoughts.
Unnatural Healing – To heal rapidly from any physical injury.
Unnatural Senses – Vampires have uncanny senses. They better sight, smell, hearing, taste, and sense of touch.
Unnatural Speed – Vampires can move at faster than the human eye.
Unnatural Strength – The power to exert great strength.
Vision – Night/Heat or Blood flow
I think one thing worth noting in devising vampires is that Dracula was a literal wizard in the novel; having learned black magic at the hidden school Scholomance, supposedly from Satan himself (the poser Caine only learned from the lesser demoness Lilith).
It's worth noting because, in an urban fantasy RPG, a LOT of Dracula's "traditional vampire powers" are actually black magic from his ton of levels in wizard.
That also means he's NOT a typical vampire so the first thing you need to decide is which of his powers you want to also be available to black magic users in your setting and whatever is left should be the template for your average vampire.
Now it could be that the vampiric state makes them all natural conduits for black magic (basically making wizard a "favored class" for vampires) and blood sacrifice a natural source of mana, but that would still make learning to use the magic a part of their development and lead to different "types" of vampire simply by spell selection.
ETA: if it were me, I'd give the base vampire template the raw physical abilities; strength, speed, sharp senses, unnatural resilience/healing; and leave the rest to magic they have natural affinities for.
Thanks to everyone for the kind words.
I've scoured rpgs and prose fiction for ideas. There's a lot you can do with vampires. More than I can list. I've been keeping a brainstorming doc where I collect ideas and I have a lot.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRXShVnJvKRhqFBMhqtBGA2j_AYDVKGXPqAsenH26MGPGdrY8phdsGEfsTtJklKT4ZUabvqZ3w5x7xU/pub
Almost all of these were inspired by some book or movie, but as you can see there's a bunch. I have more than I know what to do with.
Even using just Dracula as a basis and not going into other stuff, there's a bunch of ways you could flesh them out.
There's the hammer horror/comic book stereotype: http://www.laughingsage.com/macabrefiles/Fpg_fiendguide.htm
The Linea Dracula from Night's Black Agents. Dracula made a pact with the Devil to become a vampire, which was inherited by his biological descendants. These vampires are a biological bloodline who reproduce in the typical sexual fashion, but they can turn ordinary people into their vampiric brides/grooms or mostly-human renfields. A scion of the Linea Dracula cannot be cured, but if you kill one then all their brides/grooms become human again.
The Wamphyri from Necroscope. These vampires have been infected with a fungal parasite that hungers for blood and grants superpowers. You can get an overview here: https://www.themandragora.com/necroscope/
In the French ttrpg Nephilim, vampire myths were inspired by immortals known as Selenim. Lucy Westenra was a real person who inspired Bram Stoker to write his book. She was originally an ordinary woman who, after a terrible nightmare, woke up as an emotional vampire. This gave her the ability to learn and cast black magic, including necromancy, conjuration (summoning nightmare monsters via music), and anamorphosis (painting a nightmarish self-portrait that gives you fixed shapeshifting powers).
Good thread.
So I am currently designing a Vampire game that is set in modern times.
Being a vampire doesn't come with prestige. No Sparkly vampires. Real Vampires.
You and your nest are trying to survive. Making the right choices so your nest can grow and survive, if you make the wrong choice and kill the wrong person bad things will happen.
It's a game of survival.
I like the concept of Vampire the Masquerade but I hated how it was put together. Being bit by a vampire doesn't make you horny, it's scary and if you are a victim in the grasp of a vampire your life is in danger.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 21, 2023, 10:30:05 AM
I like the concept of Vampire the Masquerade but I hated how it was put together. Being bit by a vampire doesn't make you horny, it's scary and if you are a victim in the grasp of a vampire your life is in danger.
In the indie ttrpg
Blood, a vampire's bite causes paralysis and short term memory loss but the exact sensation felt depends on the environment and current feelings: alone in a scary alley the victim experiences terror, while in a hedonistic nightclub the victim experiences ecstasy.
Personally, I find "all the legends are true" to be the death knell of any memorable fantasy creature. The more specific, the more memorable it often seems.
Despite the noisy "down with all things Biblical" fans attempts to make it a debunked myth in VtM, the extremely specific Curse of Cain myth made its vampires feel extremely distinctive from random bloodsuckers. Being able to use epithets like "The First Murderer" and "The Third Mortal" is evocative.
So too things like "Spawn of Lilith" or "Children of Set."
While it doesn't evoke big mythological names, the concept of "all buried in unhallowed ground" or similar connections to improper rites associated with death leading to the rise of a restless dead who feeds on the living to sustain itself has a sort of folklore truth to it "honor the death rites or a monster will rise and punish the community for it."
I'm honestly kinda partial to the old WoD Kuei-Jin origin of damned souls who escaped Hell back into their bodies and will do ANYTHING to keep from being dragged back, including feeding on the innocent.
The point is... all of those unique takes on vampires lose impact if they're ALL true in the same setting. Fantasy Kitchen Sinks are generally derided, but for some reason Urban Fantasy Kitchen Sinks get a pass, probably for some modernist reason of preference for a lack of absolute truth.
Pick one, maybe two if they don't contradict, things and run with all those implications for a given setting. If you're making some generic vampire setting then make sure to point out that many of the options should be mutually exclusive for a given campaign.
And similarly, if you have other things that go bump in the night, try to not have their creation myths overtly contradict each other (see WoD Vampire, Werewolf and Mage whose cosmologies are fundamentally incompatible).
The Vampire Diaries deserves a lot of crap, but at least its mages/witches, vampires and werewolves all derived from non-contradictory origins (and consistent magic rules such as; "there's always a loophole/weakness to magic," "powerful magic must be bound to something that sustains it (and often becomes it's weakness)" and "blood is life so consuming it is required for immortality").
Like, Dracula as a foundation could work for a broader supernatural context because it's got Vlad becoming Dracula by means of infernal magic. His immortality comes from a satanic pact sealed by his need to feed on the living. His ability to infect others is akin to a perversion of the concept of Original Sin... he spreads his original sin to others.
And this origin also includes broader elements of a supernatural world. Infernal magic exists and can impart things like vampirism. Lycaon was supposedly cursed by the storm god Zeus (oft associated with the Mesopotamian god Baal) with the form of a wolf for his cannibalism, but other interpretations call it a blessing.
Baal-Zeus makes a werewolf who hunts at night, feeds on the flesh and blood of man, and passes its curse with a bite. Satan makes Dracula a vampire who hunts at night (and merely loses his powers in daylight), feeds on the blood of the living and passes on his curse with a bite. Magic A is Magic A if you wanted to use that as the foundation of a setting.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
Personally, I find "all the legends are true" to be the death knell of any memorable fantasy creature. The more specific, the more memorable it often seems.
Despite the noisy "down with all things Biblical" fans attempts to make it a debunked myth in VtM, the extremely specific Curse of Cain myth made its vampires feel extremely distinctive from random bloodsuckers. Being able to use epithets like "The First Murderer" and "The Third Mortal" is evocative.
So too things like "Spawn of Lilith" or "Children of Set."
While it doesn't evoke big mythological names, the concept of "all buried in unhallowed ground" or similar connections to improper rites associated with death leading to the rise of a restless dead who feeds on the living to sustain itself has a sort of folklore truth to it "honor the death rites or a monster will rise and punish the community for it."
I'm honestly kinda partial to the old WoD Kuei-Jin origin of damned souls who escaped Hell back into their bodies and will do ANYTHING to keep from being dragged back, including feeding on the innocent.
The point is... all of those unique takes on vampires lose impact if they're ALL true in the same setting. Fantasy Kitchen Sinks are generally derided, but for some reason Urban Fantasy Kitchen Sinks get a pass, probably for some modernist reason of preference for a lack of absolute truth.
Pick one, maybe two if they don't contradict, things and run with all those implications for a given setting. If you're making some generic vampire setting then make sure to point out that many of the options should be mutually exclusive for a given campaign.
And similarly, if you have other things that go bump in the night, try to not have their creation myths overtly contradict each other (see WoD Vampire, Werewolf and Mage whose cosmologies are fundamentally incompatible).
The Vampire Diaries deserves a lot of crap, but at least its mages/witches, vampires and werewolves all derived from non-contradictory origins (and consistent magic rules such as; "there's always a loophole/weakness to magic," "powerful magic must be bound to something that sustains it (and often becomes it's weakness)" and "blood is life so consuming it is required for immortality").
Like, Dracula as a foundation could work for a broader supernatural context because it's got Vlad becoming Dracula by means of infernal magic. His immortality comes from a satanic pact sealed by his need to feed on the living. His ability to infect others is akin to a perversion of the concept of Original Sin... he spreads his original sin to others.
And this origin also includes broader elements of a supernatural world. Infernal magic exists and can impart things like vampirism. Lycaon was supposedly cursed by the storm god Zeus (oft associated with the Mesopotamian god Baal) with the form of a wolf for his cannibalism, but other interpretations call it a blessing.
Baal-Zeus makes a werewolf who hunts at night, feeds on the flesh and blood of man, and passes its curse with a bite. Satan makes Dracula a vampire who hunts at night (and merely loses his powers in daylight), feeds on the blood of the living and passes on his curse with a bite. Magic A is Magic A if you wanted to use that as the foundation of a setting.
That's fair. On the other hand, this is how all urban fantasy ttrpgs have already done things so far.
In
Nightlife, there's one type of vampire, werewolf, demon, etc. They all follow standardized templates. There are a handful of variants but they're minor. The most customization you get is deciding in what order you learn your powers, or picking your animal aspect for werebeasts beyond werewolves.
In
WitchCraft, there's one type of vampire, werewolf, etc. They all follow standardized templates. Again, the most customization you get is picking the order you learn your powers, your animal aspect, or whether your vampire was raised by another vampire or rose from the dead under their own power.
In
Everlasting,
Vampire: Alone in the Darkness,
Vampire: Undeath, and other VTM heartbreakers, the vampires all follow the same template aside from your choice of tribe. Your choice of tribe determines what superpowers your character is talented in and a handful of additional weaknesses. Even if the tribes have separate origins, they still use the same template and never diverge from it.
Even in hunter settings like
Chill, vampires of different strains still follow >90% of the same rules.
I can see the appeal of using a single template for everything. My personal preference is for all magical stuff to have been inspired by a single magical race rather than a half-dozen or so as is usually the case. This is one of the reasons I like settings like
Nephilim or
Invisible War.
For different inspirations, I'd recommend a book of vampires for the Chill RPG, which details a dozen or so vampires from different traditions around the world. I particularly liked Elizabeth Bathory as a vampire, the Greek Santorini vampires, and the rock star vampire (connected to selling his soul at a crossroads).
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2900/Vampires
I'd also suggest GURPS Blood Types, which has a detailed discussion of a variety of vampire lore.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Bloodtypes/
I do think that one should pick a style/tradition rather than trying to encompass them all.
So I have a fresh idea for a Vampire game, it's a little out there, but stay with me.
OK, so there's a clan of Vampires, but rather than setting it in Transylvania, I've contemporized by moving them to the Pacific North West. Now what's interesting about Vampires? They don't age. So as cover, this clan pretends to be High School kids, and after graduation they move schools, so they've graduated dozens of times!
Now in the novel Dracula, sunlight doesn't hurt the vampire. I did still want it to be a limitation though, so instead of burning from the sunlight, there's some kind of optical effect that reveals them as supernatural, so they still avoid strong sunlight. We need a tragic romance element, so I was thinking, what if a mortal, ACTUAL teen fell in love with an ancient vampire who just LOOKED like a teen?
Anyway, I'm open to constructive criticism, but I put a lot of my heart and soul in to this concept, so please be gentle! Oh, and don't steal my idea!
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 10:48:34 AM
In the indie ttrpg Blood, a vampire's bite causes paralysis and short term memory loss but the exact sensation felt depends on the environment and current feelings: alone in a scary alley the victim experiences terror, while in a hedonistic nightclub the victim experiences ecstasy.
Those are good ideas. I may use them.
I know that there are other games out there but looking at the ones that were listed they were very small, short games. I want to create something really fleshed out that can be played for awhile with possible random encounters, seed ideas, etc.
I am looking to create something really fleshed out.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 07:31:10 AM
I think one thing worth noting in devising vampires is that Dracula was a literal wizard in the novel; having learned black magic at the hidden school Scholomance, supposedly from Satan himself (the poser Caine only learned from the lesser demoness Lilith).
It's worth noting because, in an urban fantasy RPG, a LOT of Dracula's "traditional vampire powers" are actually black magic from his ton of levels in wizard.
That also means he's NOT a typical vampire so the first thing you need to decide is which of his powers you want to also be available to black magic users in your setting and whatever is left should be the template for your average vampire.
Now it could be that the vampiric state makes them all natural conduits for black magic (basically making wizard a "favored class" for vampires) and blood sacrifice a natural source of mana, but that would still make learning to use the magic a part of their development and lead to different "types" of vampire simply by spell selection.
ETA: if it were me, I'd give the base vampire template the raw physical abilities; strength, speed, sharp senses, unnatural resilience/healing; and leave the rest to magic they have natural affinities for.
The idea is to brainstorm ALL the powers (and then weaknesses, and so on) a Vampire can have.
Then, using BoxCrayonTales' write up, divide those between universal and bloodline specific. So you choose your bloodline and it makes your Vampire different from mine or from the one you played last year.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
And similarly, if you have other things that go bump in the night, try to not have their creation myths overtly contradict each other (see WoD Vampire, Werewolf and Mage whose cosmologies are fundamentally incompatible).
I disagree with this advice, simply because I like the mystery that having these contradictory accounts creates. Reality is messy, and historical accounts are always filled with half-truth and propaganda.
The reality of the cosmology and primordial history should be more-or-less impossible to know for any human-equivalent character, so this stuff just provides framework for character motivations.
Incompatible story material in sourcebooks is the story equivalent of letting your players have access to every splatbook and then complaining that they discovered some weird gamebreaking build.
Quote from: Zelen on April 21, 2023, 12:35:13 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
And similarly, if you have other things that go bump in the night, try to not have their creation myths overtly contradict each other (see WoD Vampire, Werewolf and Mage whose cosmologies are fundamentally incompatible).
I disagree with this advice, simply because I like the mystery that having these contradictory accounts creates. Reality is messy, and historical accounts are always filled with half-truth and propaganda.
Reality IS messy. That's why people prefer stories... things have to make sense there.
I don't mean that the origins have to be widely known, merely that, at whatever level of unknown you set "the truth" the elements at the level of "the truth" shouldn't contradict themselves or people will find it unsatisfying.
Real Life dangles, fiction shouldn't.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 01:14:16 PM
Quote from: Zelen on April 21, 2023, 12:35:13 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
And similarly, if you have other things that go bump in the night, try to not have their creation myths overtly contradict each other (see WoD Vampire, Werewolf and Mage whose cosmologies are fundamentally incompatible).
I disagree with this advice, simply because I like the mystery that having these contradictory accounts creates. Reality is messy, and historical accounts are always filled with half-truth and propaganda.
Reality IS messy. That's why people prefer stories... things have to make sense there.
I don't mean that the origins have to be widely known, merely that, at whatever level of unknown you set "the truth" the elements at the level of "the truth" shouldn't contradict themselves or people will find it unsatisfying.
Real Life dangles, fiction shouldn't.
It's Mythology and legend within that fiction though, it is in fact OK to be murky, perhaps even contradictory. People do actually have different tastes.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 21, 2023, 01:17:36 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 01:14:16 PM
Quote from: Zelen on April 21, 2023, 12:35:13 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
And similarly, if you have other things that go bump in the night, try to not have their creation myths overtly contradict each other (see WoD Vampire, Werewolf and Mage whose cosmologies are fundamentally incompatible).
I disagree with this advice, simply because I like the mystery that having these contradictory accounts creates. Reality is messy, and historical accounts are always filled with half-truth and propaganda.
Reality IS messy. That's why people prefer stories... things have to make sense there.
I don't mean that the origins have to be widely known, merely that, at whatever level of unknown you set "the truth" the elements at the level of "the truth" shouldn't contradict themselves or people will find it unsatisfying.
Real Life dangles, fiction shouldn't.
It's Mythology and legend within that fiction though, it is in fact OK to be murky, perhaps even contradictory. People do actually have different tastes.
When I'm dealing with Mythology I know not to take it seriously: Zeus became a swan to seduce a woman? Sure, why not?
But the game world HAS TO have an internal logic, you're borrowing from myth to build a different reality, because magic can't only go so far before it starts pulling you out of the world, which is fine for a beer & pretzels one shot. Even Toon has it's own internal logic.
It doesn't need to adhere to IRL logic, science or such, but it HAS TO adhere to itself.
Take the write up, different bloodlines CLAIM to descend from different original vampires. Unless you're borrowing from Underworld (the movies) claiming that werewolves share the same origin could be world breaking.
Claiming that X is true (vampires & Weres share the same origin) and then claiming they don't is valid only if neither of those has been established as the Truth in the world. So you publish a splat book that establishes something IS true in the game world, you shouldn't then publish a new splat book that contradicts the first UNLESS you're dealing with stuff like RIFTS or GURPS Alternate Earths.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2023, 12:19:29 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 07:31:10 AM
I think one thing worth noting in devising vampires is that Dracula was a literal wizard in the novel; having learned black magic at the hidden school Scholomance, supposedly from Satan himself (the poser Caine only learned from the lesser demoness Lilith).
It's worth noting because, in an urban fantasy RPG, a LOT of Dracula's "traditional vampire powers" are actually black magic from his ton of levels in wizard.
That also means he's NOT a typical vampire so the first thing you need to decide is which of his powers you want to also be available to black magic users in your setting and whatever is left should be the template for your average vampire.
Now it could be that the vampiric state makes them all natural conduits for black magic (basically making wizard a "favored class" for vampires) and blood sacrifice a natural source of mana, but that would still make learning to use the magic a part of their development and lead to different "types" of vampire simply by spell selection.
ETA: if it were me, I'd give the base vampire template the raw physical abilities; strength, speed, sharp senses, unnatural resilience/healing; and leave the rest to magic they have natural affinities for.
The idea is to brainstorm ALL the powers (and then weaknesses, and so on) a Vampire can have.
Then, using BoxCrayonTales' write up, divide those between universal and bloodline specific. So you choose your bloodline and it makes your Vampire different from mine or from the one you played last year.
Echoing Jhkim, you may find this free RPG a useful resource: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byiv9hddS-1aQnluNEk1N0FWRzQ/view?usp=share_link&resourcekey=0-DvS1eYTdc3zCFp-k4Z-fdQ
It provides detailed guidelines for designing vampire strains and settings built around particular themes, with four sample settings and a chapter on general trends in vampire fiction over the last century or so.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 21, 2023, 12:12:12 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 10:48:34 AM
In the indie ttrpg Blood, a vampire's bite causes paralysis and short term memory loss but the exact sensation felt depends on the environment and current feelings: alone in a scary alley the victim experiences terror, while in a hedonistic nightclub the victim experiences ecstasy.
Those are good ideas. I may use them.
I know that there are other games out there but looking at the ones that were listed they were very small, short games. I want to create something really fleshed out that can be played for awhile with possible random encounters, seed ideas, etc.
I am looking to create something really fleshed out.
That's probably due to budgets and time investment. Making a detailed RPG is time consuming.
Do you want to make up your own rules too, or would you like to use one of the existing toolkit games as a basis?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2023, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 21, 2023, 01:17:36 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 01:14:16 PM
Quote from: Zelen on April 21, 2023, 12:35:13 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
And similarly, if you have other things that go bump in the night, try to not have their creation myths overtly contradict each other (see WoD Vampire, Werewolf and Mage whose cosmologies are fundamentally incompatible).
I disagree with this advice, simply because I like the mystery that having these contradictory accounts creates. Reality is messy, and historical accounts are always filled with half-truth and propaganda.
Reality IS messy. That's why people prefer stories... things have to make sense there.
I don't mean that the origins have to be widely known, merely that, at whatever level of unknown you set "the truth" the elements at the level of "the truth" shouldn't contradict themselves or people will find it unsatisfying.
Real Life dangles, fiction shouldn't.
It's Mythology and legend within that fiction though, it is in fact OK to be murky, perhaps even contradictory. People do actually have different tastes.
When I'm dealing with Mythology I know not to take it seriously: Zeus became a swan to seduce a woman? Sure, why not?
But the game world HAS TO have an internal logic, you're borrowing from myth to build a different reality, because magic can't only go so far before it starts pulling you out of the world, which is fine for a beer & pretzels one shot. Even Toon has it's own internal logic.
It doesn't need to adhere to IRL logic, science or such, but it HAS TO adhere to itself.
Take the write up, different bloodlines CLAIM to descend from different original vampires. Unless you're borrowing from Underworld (the movies) claiming that werewolves share the same origin could be world breaking.
Claiming that X is true (vampires & Weres share the same origin) and then claiming they don't is valid only if neither of those has been established as the Truth in the world. So you publish a splat book that establishes something IS true in the game world, you shouldn't then publish a new splat book that contradicts the first UNLESS you're dealing with stuff like RIFTS or GURPS Alternate Earths.
Whenever I get to that bridge, an origin that I commonly use is that these monsters are drawn from the realm of nightmares. Since nightmares can take endless forms, so too do the monsters spawned from it.
As far as my own attempts go, there are multiple avenues I could explore. For example:
No strains: Every monster, or at least every PC, is unique. There are few to no recurring strains with consistent traits. This is the approach taken by
Actual Fucking Monsters.
Single strain: The setting only has a single strain of vampirism. At most, there may be a handful of substrains with minor variations. This is how
WitchCraft and
Nephilim goes about it. This has the benefit of simplicity, as you don't have much to keep track of.
Multiple sub-strains: The setting has a single strain of vampirism, but there are multiple substrains with variant powers and weaknesses. The divergence from the baseline strain is generally small. The substrains don't necessarily have a singular origin, each one may have a separate origin in time and space, but they follow the same template regardless. VTM and its heartbreakers take this approach. This has the benefit of adding additional customizability and unpredictability while retaining a fair amount of simplicity.
Multiple strains: The setting has multiple strains of vampirism with wildly different properties from one another. Strains may not even resemble what we stereotypically associate with vampires. Substrains are rare or absent.
Nightlife uses this approach, representing werewolves, demons, wights and so forth within the same framework as stereotypical vampires. This adds more options while keeping some amount of simplicity.
Multiple strains and substrains: An extension of the above, the setting has a plethora of strains and substrains. To my knowledge, the few examples of this are limited to movies or prose fiction like
Captain Kronos, Blackcoat Press'
Vampire Almanac books, or the
American Vampire comics. This approach is very complicated and I'm not surprised nobody has tried it in the ttrpg scene aside from relatively short toolkits like
GURPS Blood Types,
Feed or
Vampire City.
Each choice will have different pros and cons, requiring different approaches to the worldbuilding and game design. In any case, this choice needs to be made before you do any detailed worldbuilding.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 01:32:37 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2023, 12:19:29 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 07:31:10 AM
I think one thing worth noting in devising vampires is that Dracula was a literal wizard in the novel; having learned black magic at the hidden school Scholomance, supposedly from Satan himself (the poser Caine only learned from the lesser demoness Lilith).
It's worth noting because, in an urban fantasy RPG, a LOT of Dracula's "traditional vampire powers" are actually black magic from his ton of levels in wizard.
That also means he's NOT a typical vampire so the first thing you need to decide is which of his powers you want to also be available to black magic users in your setting and whatever is left should be the template for your average vampire.
Now it could be that the vampiric state makes them all natural conduits for black magic (basically making wizard a "favored class" for vampires) and blood sacrifice a natural source of mana, but that would still make learning to use the magic a part of their development and lead to different "types" of vampire simply by spell selection.
ETA: if it were me, I'd give the base vampire template the raw physical abilities; strength, speed, sharp senses, unnatural resilience/healing; and leave the rest to magic they have natural affinities for.
The idea is to brainstorm ALL the powers (and then weaknesses, and so on) a Vampire can have.
Then, using BoxCrayonTales' write up, divide those between universal and bloodline specific. So you choose your bloodline and it makes your Vampire different from mine or from the one you played last year.
Echoing Jhkim, you may find this free RPG a useful resource: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byiv9hddS-1aQnluNEk1N0FWRzQ/view?usp=share_link&resourcekey=0-DvS1eYTdc3zCFp-k4Z-fdQ
It provides detailed guidelines for designing vampire strains and settings built around particular themes, with four sample settings and a chapter on general trends in vampire fiction over the last century or so.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 21, 2023, 12:12:12 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 10:48:34 AM
In the indie ttrpg Blood, a vampire's bite causes paralysis and short term memory loss but the exact sensation felt depends on the environment and current feelings: alone in a scary alley the victim experiences terror, while in a hedonistic nightclub the victim experiences ecstasy.
Those are good ideas. I may use them.
I know that there are other games out there but looking at the ones that were listed they were very small, short games. I want to create something really fleshed out that can be played for awhile with possible random encounters, seed ideas, etc.
I am looking to create something really fleshed out.
That's probably due to budgets and time investment. Making a detailed RPG is time consuming.
Do you want to make up your own rules too, or would you like to use one of the existing toolkit games as a basis?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2023, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 21, 2023, 01:17:36 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 01:14:16 PM
Quote from: Zelen on April 21, 2023, 12:35:13 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
And similarly, if you have other things that go bump in the night, try to not have their creation myths overtly contradict each other (see WoD Vampire, Werewolf and Mage whose cosmologies are fundamentally incompatible).
I disagree with this advice, simply because I like the mystery that having these contradictory accounts creates. Reality is messy, and historical accounts are always filled with half-truth and propaganda.
Reality IS messy. That's why people prefer stories... things have to make sense there.
I don't mean that the origins have to be widely known, merely that, at whatever level of unknown you set "the truth" the elements at the level of "the truth" shouldn't contradict themselves or people will find it unsatisfying.
Real Life dangles, fiction shouldn't.
It's Mythology and legend within that fiction though, it is in fact OK to be murky, perhaps even contradictory. People do actually have different tastes.
When I'm dealing with Mythology I know not to take it seriously: Zeus became a swan to seduce a woman? Sure, why not?
But the game world HAS TO have an internal logic, you're borrowing from myth to build a different reality, because magic can't only go so far before it starts pulling you out of the world, which is fine for a beer & pretzels one shot. Even Toon has it's own internal logic.
It doesn't need to adhere to IRL logic, science or such, but it HAS TO adhere to itself.
Take the write up, different bloodlines CLAIM to descend from different original vampires. Unless you're borrowing from Underworld (the movies) claiming that werewolves share the same origin could be world breaking.
Claiming that X is true (vampires & Weres share the same origin) and then claiming they don't is valid only if neither of those has been established as the Truth in the world. So you publish a splat book that establishes something IS true in the game world, you shouldn't then publish a new splat book that contradicts the first UNLESS you're dealing with stuff like RIFTS or GURPS Alternate Earths.
Whenever I get to that bridge, an origin that I commonly use is that these monsters are drawn from the realm of nightmares. Since nightmares can take endless forms, so too do the monsters spawned from it.
As far as my own attempts go, there are multiple avenues I could explore. For example:
No strains: Every monster, or at least every PC, is unique. There are few to no recurring strains with consistent traits. This is the approach taken by Actual Fucking Monsters.
Single strain: The setting only has a single strain of vampirism. At most, there may be a handful of substrains with minor variations. This is how WitchCraft and Nephilim goes about it. This has the benefit of simplicity, as you don't have much to keep track of.
Multiple sub-strains: The setting has a single strain of vampirism, but there are multiple substrains with variant powers and weaknesses. The divergence from the baseline strain is generally small. The substrains don't necessarily have a singular origin, each one may have a separate origin in time and space, but they follow the same template regardless. VTM and its heartbreakers take this approach. This has the benefit of adding additional customizability and unpredictability while retaining a fair amount of simplicity.
Multiple strains: The setting has multiple strains of vampirism with wildly different properties from one another. Strains may not even resemble what we stereotypically associate with vampires. Substrains are rare or absent. Nightlife uses this approach, representing werewolves, demons, wights and so forth within the same framework as stereotypical vampires. This adds more options while keeping some amount of simplicity.
Multiple strains and substrains: An extension of the above, the setting has a plethora of strains and substrains. To my knowledge, the few examples of this are limited to movies or prose fiction like Captain Kronos, Blackcoat Press' Vampire Almanac books, or the American Vampire comics. This approach is very complicated and I'm not surprised nobody has tried it in the ttrpg scene aside from relatively short toolkits like GURPS Blood Types, Feed or Vampire City.
Each choice will have different pros and cons, requiring different approaches to the worldbuilding and game design. In any case, this choice needs to be made before you do any detailed worldbuilding.
Nightmares, yes, that solves the problem if you can buy into it.
Strains... IF I understood correctly these are like the different types of vampires from different parts of the world myths, they all share some characteristics but not many.
I like better, for this type of game, a single strain if you will, all vampires share the basic characteristics, but their different bloodlines give them some unique characteristics in the form of boons/drawbacks.
As for weres, instead of having multiple different types of werewolves why not introduce other types of theriantrope? Werejaguars, werebears... That instantly makes them different enough mechanically.
Fae, like with Vampires, have them share the basic characteristics : "Immortal", glamour, iron weakness. Then give them something to make them unique so the player can choose beyond the basic type: Troll, Gremlin, whatever.
Wizards, here's where the real trouble starts, you need to design different spell lists and maybe magic systems to make it possible to have different types of MU that FEEL and PLAY different.
The way Feed defines a strain is that its rules are built around exploring a particular theme. The sample strains/settings the book provides are Dance Macabre (minimal divergences from human aside from hunger for blood and being not quite superhuman), Hush (you made a pact with demons to get wishes granted, but the demons inhabit your body and demand blood in exchange), Los Satanicos (stereotypical b-movie vampires), and Nod (I'm not really sure how to describe these guys).
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 01:32:37 PM
Echoing Jhkim, you may find this free RPG a useful resource: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byiv9hddS-1aQnluNEk1N0FWRzQ/view?usp=share_link&resourcekey=0-DvS1eYTdc3zCFp-k4Z-fdQ
Very cool. I am going to check it out after work.
Do you think if you were doing a vampire game that maybe making new weaknesses would be a good idea instead of using the common ones everyone knows?
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 21, 2023, 03:12:42 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 01:32:37 PM
Echoing Jhkim, you may find this free RPG a useful resource: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byiv9hddS-1aQnluNEk1N0FWRzQ/view?usp=share_link&resourcekey=0-DvS1eYTdc3zCFp-k4Z-fdQ
Very cool. I am going to check it out after work.
Do you think if you were doing a vampire game that maybe making new weaknesses would be a good idea instead of using the common ones everyone knows?
Sure! Here's some random tables:
https://www.blogofholding.com/?p=7171
https://www.blogofholding.com/?p=7111
In my brainstorming doc, I like to tailor powers and weaknesses to the sub/strain's overall theme so these don't feel completely arbitrary. One idea I had is that vampires develop new weaknesses over time based on the powers they accumulate. You can observe and research a vampire or strain to get hints about their capabilities and vulnerabilities.
For example, vampire initiates of the Cult of Seth aren't burned by sunlight because they're servants of Ra the sun god, but Ra's gaze forces them to sleep until he needs them during the night. Whereas vampire initiates of the Cult of Apophis are actively burned by sunlight because they're enemies of Ra.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 03:26:34 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 21, 2023, 03:12:42 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 01:32:37 PM
Echoing Jhkim, you may find this free RPG a useful resource: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byiv9hddS-1aQnluNEk1N0FWRzQ/view?usp=share_link&resourcekey=0-DvS1eYTdc3zCFp-k4Z-fdQ
Very cool. I am going to check it out after work.
Do you think if you were doing a vampire game that maybe making new weaknesses would be a good idea instead of using the common ones everyone knows?
Sure! Here's some random tables:
https://www.blogofholding.com/?p=7171
https://www.blogofholding.com/?p=7111
In my brainstorming doc, I like to tailor powers and weaknesses to the sub/strain's overall theme so these don't feel completely arbitrary. One idea I had is that vampires develop new weaknesses over time based on the powers they accumulate. You can observe and research a vampire or strain to get hints about their capabilities and vulnerabilities.
For example, vampire initiates of the Cult of Seth aren't burned by sunlight because they're servants of Ra the sun god, but Ra's gaze forces them to sleep until he needs them during the night. Whereas vampire initiates of the Cult of Apophis are actively burned by sunlight because they're enemies of Ra.
Wait, what? The Cult OF freaking SET are servants of Ra?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 03:26:34 PM
Sure! Here's some random tables:
https://www.blogofholding.com/?p=7171
https://www.blogofholding.com/?p=7111
Thank you for the links. I will check them out after work.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 03:26:34 PMIn my brainstorming doc, I like to tailor powers and weaknesses to the sub/strain's overall theme so these don't feel completely arbitrary. One idea I had is that vampires develop new weaknesses over time based on the powers they accumulate. You can observe and research a vampire or strain to get hints about their capabilities and vulnerabilities.
For example, vampire initiates of the Cult of Seth aren't burned by sunlight because they're servants of Ra the sun god, but Ra's gaze forces them to sleep until he needs them during the night. Whereas vampire initiates of the Cult of Apophis are actively burned by sunlight because they're enemies of Ra.
This is a great idea. It also helps make it so not all of the vampires are cookie cutter and the same. One vampire can be killed by Method X and that wont work on another vampire because they can only be killed by Method Y.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2023, 03:42:43 PM
Wait, what? The Cult OF freaking SET are servants of Ra?
https://desertofset.com/2020/06/15/set-is-a-savior-not-a-devil/
Years ago I read the Khaibit entry in
Bloodlines: The Hidden. Following up on the mythology, I was surprised to learn that Set was originally a positive figure in Egyptian myth. He was the protector of Ra who fought Apophis every night to ensure the sun rose. He was the patron deity of the Hyksos dynasty and identified with a Canaanite precursor to the Abrahamic God. It was only later that he was demonized. The inaccurate snake symbolism may be traced back to Robert E. Howard's Conan stories.
Tl;dr he's Egyptian Loki.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 21, 2023, 04:02:51 PM
This is a great idea. It also helps make it so not all of the vampires are cookie cutter and the same. One vampire can be killed by Method X and that wont work on another vampire because they can only be killed by Method Y.
Some of the short stories in Black Coat Press' Vampire Almanac books make this a plot point, referencing Captain Kronos. There's at least two scenes were somebody tries to figure out to kill a particular type of vampire, using stakes, cutting out the heart, chopping off the head, etc.
Discworld makes jokes about it, like vampires from one region only being vanquished by hammering carrots into their ears, filling their mouths with salt, and chopping off their head. If you want a more comedic tone then you can lean into that by giving your vampires similarly absurd weaknesses. It's not like the stereotypical weaknesses aren't arbitrary and bizarre: we just take them for granted and don't think about how they might be construed as silly.
Vampire Thrall, these are the human cattle the vampire keeps to feed from.
Vampire Spawn (Nosferatu): Nosferatu are created when, after several feedings (no less than 3, but the longer the Vampyr manages to keep the victim alive increases the chances of it rising as an undead Nosferatu 50% after 3 feedings, + 5% per 10 extra days) the victim dies. If the transformation is successful it will rise on the night of the 3rd day as an undead Nosferatu Spawn (Mindless and dominated by The Hunger, with no control over it and unable to use the powers that belong to it), often it will head straight to it's home and if the family lets it in it will drain everybody in the household. If the transformation isn't successful or the Thrall dies before time it will rise as a Revenant with the INT, WIS & CHA of the Spawn but the STR, CON & DEX of the Lesser (or Master?) and isn't under it's maker's control.
As the Nosferatu "ages" it regains the use of it's mind and human memories, at this point it can make some use of the most basic Vampyr powers being called a Fledgling.
Vampire Fledgling
Vampire Lesser
Vampire Bride/Groom: With "age" all Vampyrs gain power except the Vampire Bride/Groom, these are created when a Vampire Lord/Lady receives virgins as tribute from the human townsfolk he keeps as cattle in the neighboring towns. These never will be anything but Lesser Vampires, but have some powers other Vampires don't:
Enthralling song.- All those, withing hearing distance, who would be sexually attracted to the Vampire Bride/Groom from either gender must make a save vs spell or fall victims of an effect similar to the Charm Person spell. 60 feet and a -1 penalty to the ST per Bride/Groom singing.
Vampire Lord
Vampire Master
I also have some ideas for different types of vampire's servants. These descriptions are very general and assume you're using something very customizable like GURPS Blood Types to fine tune it.
Familiars: familiars are mortals, animals, and/or other things (plants, demons, zombies, etc) that serve a vampire, either unknowingly, willingly or under mind control. Some vampires with advanced mind control can turn people into Manchurian agents who may not even be aware that they're serving that vampire.
Drone, thrall, etc: a drone, thrall or whatever other name you want to use, is a mortal who has had their willpower sucked out by a vampire's bite (as vampires suck lives, not the base matter composing blood), causing them to become nocturnal, uninterested in mundane life, and infatuated with the vampire who sucked them. This form of mind control is not subtle and can alert witch-hunters who know the signs. Their willpower recovers over time, so their master must periodically refresh the mind control by sucking out the willpower again. This sucking creates a sympathetic magical tie between the vampire and the drone that the vampire can exploit, even without any training in magical theory, because vampires are inherently magical creatures. Vampires can learn to send their drones simple telepathic messages, such as summoning drones to the master's location. Even possessing the drone remotely for particularly assertive masters. Vampires that can create and commune with drones don't necessarily know other forms of mind control or telepathy. Some vampires with advanced mind control can brainwash mortals into drones with eye mojo, and this brainwashing doesn't weaken over time. The movie Vampira (https://taliesinttlg.blogspot.com/2008/11/vampira-review.html) displays this sort of servant being employed.
Empowered familiar: an empowered familiar is an originally non-magical familiar who has been granted limited magical powers by their master. This often involves a gift of the master's blood (or "ichor", a magic-impregnated blood analogue) or raw magical energy, depending on the diet of the vampire. Bloodsuckers usually have to refresh the magic by giving their familiar routine "blood gifts". Emotional vampires or those using spells can refresh their familiars at will, regardless of the intervening distance. An empowered familiar may gain the ability to learn a limited amount of magical powers of their own, or their master can use powers through them (such as feeding remotely) or tattoo spells/powers onto their aura for their personal use. The recently released movie Renfield is about this kind of servant.
Living vampire aka half-vampire aka dhampir: this category is usually only found in relation to demonic/undead bloodsuckers. The dhampir has certain key vampiric traits (bloodsucking, magical powers, being able to transmit vampirism) while lacking others (vulnerability to sunlight, being undead, soullessness). Some strains have the ability to create them as servants instead of or in addition to empowered familiars. Others only create them as an unintended byproduct of their existence, and these dhampirs will often be tormented by their half-human status and be driven to kill all vampires in revenge. Half-vampires might be a transitional stage between mortal and vampire, caused by an exchange of blood, and only cured by vanquishing their vampire master before the transformation becomes permanent. This may be seen in movies like My Best Friend Is a Vampire (http://taliesinttlg.blogspot.com/2007/06/i-was-teenage-vampire-review.html), Blade (http://taliesinttlg.blogspot.com/2007/04/blade-review.html), Vampire Hunter D (http://taliesinttlg.blogspot.com/2009/07/vampire-hunter-d-bloodlust-review.html), or The Lost Boys (http://taliesinttlg.blogspot.com/2006/07/lost-boys-review.html).
Feral ghouls aka feral vampires aka zompires: the feral vampire or zompire, sometimes called a feral ghoul (although the name "ghoul" technically encompasses a number of different monsters descended from the same nightmare archetype (https://youtu.be/ilV3_eKLV_c), closely related to the vampire), is a reanimated corpse driven entirely by animal instinct and hunger for human blood/flesh. In addition to a generally corpsey appearance it often displays physical mutation from the human norm, such as large pointed ears, claws, fangs, hooves, a canine muzzle, etc. Some vampires may create these creatures as familiars, or they're the unintended product of a failed turning, overdosing on vampiric ichor, going too long without vampiric ichor, brain damage inflicted on a vampire due to starvation, the end result of a vampire giving into their hunger, etc. Zompires have the intelligence of a predatory mammal at most, but they might have situationally useful powers like mimicking the appearance of a person they've recently eaten. Zompires will resort to eating corpses (reanimated or otherwise) if they have no other food source, although whether they can actually derive any sustenance from this is variable. Some actually prefer corpses over live prey, and will kill living people they encounter and let their corpses putrefy a bit before eating them. Zompires can form packs, with or without a vampire master to lead them. At least when confronting them during the day, zompires will be far easier for mortal witch-hunters to handle because they generally aren't smart enough to set traps or other defenses while they're sleeping the daytime hours away.
Vampire mook: a vampire mook has the typical vampiric traits, but their autonomy is severely limited compared to a human being. They'll obey any command from their master that isn't obviously suicidal, but they're quite stupid and will rush into dangerous situations without a second thought. Their masters create them and keep them around for menial labor and entertainment. Mooks are permanently stunted mentally, physically, and magically. They cannot learn new skills, cannot gain new powers, don't learn from experience, and their memories of their own existence are vague. They can hold casual conversations, but prolonged interaction reveals that their personalities and critical thinking capacity are actually quite vapid. A mook could survive for a millennium, but be taken out with ease by an experienced witch-hunter. Mooks may or may not even be able to turn victims into vampires.
Middling servant: (at this point I'm running out of snappy names) a middling servant vampire retains the same autonomy they had in life and can continue to grow and change psychologically, but their magical abilities are permanently stunted. They have all the standard weaknesses of their strain, but only limited magical abilities that they cannot enhance or increase with experience or raw age. Their powers are often limited to physical augmentation, with maybe limited amounts of mind control or shapeshifting. They usually cannot turn mortals into vampires or empower familiars. If their master gives them the privilege, they can command mooks and familiars. Unlike a mook, however, they can be promoted to full vampire status by the grace of their master or by a magical ritual that may be found in certain rare books of vampire lore. The movies Blood Angels (http://taliesinttlg.blogspot.com/2006/07/blood-angels-review.html) and Vamps (https://taliesinttlg.blogspot.com/2012/11/vamps-review.html) are about this rank.
Bond to the master: some undead servants will be reliant on special bonds with their master to continue existing. If their master is vanquished, then they will either perish immediately or have only a limited amount of time to find a new master before they perish. The movie Zoltan: Hound of Dracula (https://taliesinttlg.blogspot.com/2006/08/zoltan-hound-of-dracula-review.html) is about this situation.
Non-human vampires: In some cases animals, plants or even inanimate objects can be turned into quasi-vampires or full-fledged vampires. Animals become stronger, bigger, vicious and bloodthirsty. Plants develop sentience, the ability to move, increased size and bloodthirstiness. Inanimate objects turn into something out of a bad Stephen King movie.
This is some of my older work on a V:TM heartbreaker. Basically some stuff from V:TM, minus the copyrighted terms, plus B/X. It's a class and level based thing. I wanted the classes to reflect how the different vampires feed, but it didn't quite work for the last two.
Ruler
You are a natural leader, commanding from the throne, or perhaps the one in the shadows pulling the leader's strings. You have vast resources, possibly amassed over centuries, as well as status in vampire society and influence over mortal institutions. You feed by ruling over a group of mortals who are your thralls.
Warrior
You are skilled in all manner of physical combat, perfected over lifetimes of training and conflict. You might focus on a single weapon or style, or prefer an arsenal of weapons. You might dedicate yourself to a code of honor or prefer unrefined rage and fury. Regardless, when it comes to combat you have no equal. You feed by violently assaulting your victims.
Hunter
You are the ultimate predator, either relentlessly stalking your prey, or waiting in the shadows for the moment to strike. Unlike the warrior, you prefer ambushing your prey rather than direct conflict. Hunters often feel a connection to the natural world and animal behavior, and are the least likely to follow the rules of vampire society. You feed by ambushing your victims by surprise.
Deceiver
You see the hunt through the lens of social interactions, albeit the darker and more exploitative aspects. Deception, manipulation, and seduction are your weapons; secrets and favors owed are your armor. Of all the vampires, the Seducers are the most likely to be a part of mortal society and develop personal relationships with mortals. You feed by tricking or seducing mortals.
Outcast
You were reborn with some sort of deformity that mars your appearance, and casts you out from both mortal and vampire society. As the years progress, things get worse, until you finally can no longer pass as a human. Ultimately you find refuge in the sewers, tunnels, and forgotten places beneath the city where you form a culture with other outcasts. You feed on the weak and lost-- those that fall through the cracks.
Sorcerer
Many other classes have abilities that mortals would consider supernatural, but you command powers beyond comprehension. Magic is the mastery of the energy contained in shadow, dreams, and blood.
Necromancer
The Necromancers are a scholarly cult that is devoted to studying Death. They are experts on vampire lore, possessing the most knowledge of how vampirism actually works. Their research grants access to secrets and rituals that provide supernatural powers, usually focused on the nature of vampirism, death, and prophecy.
Ah, necromancers. One thing I did with my necromancers was make them a secret society that any vampire could join. I included an Anita Blake-inspired provision where vampires could join other bloodlines by swearing a magical oath to a patron of that bloodline.
Watching Only Lovers Left Alive. One plot point from this film is that many humans have polluted their own blood and rendered it undrinkable, so vampires go to great lengths to get clean blood.
Let's interrogate that. What pollutes blood and makes it undrinkable? Drugs? Hepatitis? Venereal disease?
I had ideas for vampires who interact with that in different ways. Some have strong stomachs that don't worry about the toxicity of their food, but they often have a reputation as scavengers, corpse eaters, bottom feeders, even cannibals. Some actually have no choice but to consume "tainted" blood, and thus are seen as "unclean" by other vampires. One bloodline can only derive nourishment from victims infected with pathogens. Another must drink blood from those currently intoxicated by recreational drugs. Some can only drink from corpses, which initially seems like a blessing until they realize it means they have to kill their victims first.
Others have so-called "refined" palates. Some can only drink blood from above a certain social class (I have no idea how much sense this makes, but magic!). Some have an almost sentient palate that drives them to seek a different "vintage" every time they feel hungry, and it's always a vintage that is difficult to acquire at that moment.
On the other hand, what about people with blood disorders or abnormally delicious blood? In Kiss of the Damned, a vampire employs a woman with a hereditary blood disorder as a familiar because she isn't a temptation. In another story I don't remember the title of, a vampire keeps around a "boyfriend" with unusually delicious blood who becomes readily addicted to the bite.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 10:48:20 PM
Watching Only Lovers Left Alive. One plot point from this film is that many humans have polluted their own blood and rendered it undrinkable, so vampires go to great lengths to get clean blood.
Let's interrogate that. What pollutes blood and makes it undrinkable? Drugs? Hepatitis? Venereal disease?
I had ideas for vampires who interact with that in different ways. Some have strong stomachs that don't worry about the toxicity of their food, but they often have a reputation as scavengers, corpse eaters, bottom feeders, even cannibals. Some actually have no choice but to consume "tainted" blood, and thus are seen as "unclean" by other vampires. One bloodline can only derive nourishment from victims infected with pathogens. Another must drink blood from those currently intoxicated by recreational drugs. Some can only drink from corpses, which initially seems like a blessing until they realize it means they have to kill their victims first.
Others have so-called "refined" palates. Some can only drink blood from above a certain social class (I have no idea how much sense this makes, but magic!). Some have an almost sentient palate that drives them to seek a different "vintage" every time they feel hungry, and it's always a vintage that is difficult to acquire at that moment.
On the other hand, what about people with blood disorders or abnormally delicious blood? In Kiss of the Damned, a vampire employs a woman with a hereditary blood disorder as a familiar because she isn't a temptation. In another story I don't remember the title of, a vampire keeps around a "boyfriend" with unusually delicious blood who becomes readily addicted to the bite.
Porphyria
Silver nitrate
Leprosy
Leukemia
Radiation?
Recent consumption of holy water/consecration wine or the holy wafer
Prions?
Sun allergy
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
Personally, I find "all the legends are true" to be the death knell of any memorable fantasy creature. The more specific, the more memorable it often seems.
Despite the noisy "down with all things Biblical" fans attempts to make it a debunked myth in VtM, the extremely specific Curse of Cain myth made its vampires feel extremely distinctive from random bloodsuckers. Being able to use epithets like "The First Murderer" and "The Third Mortal" is evocative.
I agree that V:TM knocked it out of the park with the Caine origin story. I read the Anne Rice novels after V:TM, and her origin story seemed pedestrian by comparison. There's something about the biblical allusions in V:TM that hits on a deep level, even to my humanist mind.
Yet, there's also some appeal to the true origin story being lost to history. In my own musings, I have a toolkit approach of several different vampire origin stories. The GM can choose one as definitive and leave it at that, or you can have multiple "origin cults" each trying to prove it's version of the truth is the right one. I envision a grand campaign where the players try to find the Truth, like peeling away the layers to a mystery. I think that packs a serious punch as well, but in a different way.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 10:17:50 PM
Ah, necromancers. One thing I did with my necromancers was make them a secret society that any vampire could join. I included an Anita Blake-inspired provision where vampires could join other bloodlines by swearing a magical oath to a patron of that bloodline.
That makes sense (Necromancer as What You Do, rather than What You Are.) But this was built on a B/X chassis which doesn't have an X and Y axes. I'll probably ditch B/X, there's so much of it that doesn't work for this idea.
Quote from: Aglondir on April 22, 2023, 01:21:52 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 21, 2023, 10:49:32 AM
Personally, I find "all the legends are true" to be the death knell of any memorable fantasy creature. The more specific, the more memorable it often seems.
Despite the noisy "down with all things Biblical" fans attempts to make it a debunked myth in VtM, the extremely specific Curse of Cain myth made its vampires feel extremely distinctive from random bloodsuckers. Being able to use epithets like "The First Murderer" and "The Third Mortal" is evocative.
I agree that V:TM knocked it out of the park with the Caine origin story. I read the Anne Rice novels after V:TM, and her origin story seemed pedestrian by comparison. There's something about the biblical allusions in V:TM that hits on a deep level, even to my humanist mind.
Yet, there's also some appeal to the true origin story being lost to history. In my own musings, I have a toolkit approach of several different vampire origin stories. The GM can choose one as definitive and leave it at that, or you can have multiple "origin cults" each trying to prove it's version of the truth is the right one. I envision a grand campaign where the players try to find the Truth, like peeling away the layers to a mystery. I think that packs a serious punch as well, but in a different way.
I think the trick is that players often have problems with metagaming lore. In universe the Caine myth WAS supposed to be virtually unknown/deep lore that only vampire scholars and those willing to go to the ends of the earth could obtain pieces of.
But the original writers also had a book to sell and cool ideas they wanted to share so they actually spelled out all the hidden lore for the readers and, the majority being emo metagaming 90's teens acted as if their characters had full knowledge of everything in the books.
I included multiple choice answets to all the deep mysteries of my own fantasy setting book. I know which of the multiple choice answers I consider true, and write my material so it doesn't contradict those (while it may contradict other answers), but I want to leave it up to individual GMs what their answers are and thus deny the metagaming impulse a "one true way" to follow.
I would suggest something similar for a brainstormed "better" vampire for an RPG context (which doesn't have the same needs as in a purely literary one).
Even if there's only one vampire template, offer up three-ish compelling orgins for the GM to pick from as "the truth" (they don't have to be earth shaking or invoke big names, but something with enough meat to dig into) just because that does a number on the metagaming of lore that can really impact rpg campaigns in ways it won't affect a novel or script.
* * * *
Related to that, another aspect that I think helped make VtM more compelling was its satellite lore and associated monsters; Blood Magic, Ghouls, Ghasts, Gargoyles, Ghosts, Zombies, Revenants, Dhampirs, Demons, Hellhounds, mutant sewer animals, twisted abominations of the Tzmisce, the counter of True Faith, the Hedge Magic remnants (prior to Mage, the Tremere embraced vampirism because mortal magic was dying and Hedge Magic was the scraps still left by the modern day), shadowy Vatican and government organizations hunting vampires; all of those things could be part of a VtM-only campaign via various elements of the larger VtM lore.
Even without the other splats of the larger World of Darkness, there was already a "World of Darkness" fleshed out within it all spreading out like a web from vampires.
Beyond the Caine lore, that's also what helped cement VtM in memories. It wasn't just the night to night struggles of urban vampires and their factions against each other. There was deeper and darker things connected to it that provided a wide variety of potential campaigns.
* * * *
Semi-unrelated to that, but relevant to RPG design, is a very important question; is the vampire being designed intended for a vampire-centric setting (i.e. PCs are expected to be vampires) or are they intended for a broader urban fantasy approach (i.e. one PC is a vampire, one is a witch, one is a dhampir, one is some Frankenstein's monster)?
This is important because one of the biggest lessons learned from cross-splat play in the WoD was how annoying it was to have a mixed party with a vampire in it.
It's one thing to have the allergy to the sun be so severe that even the reflected sun off the moon potentially give a vampire "sunburn" in a game where all the PCs are expected to be vampires. It's quite another to try and work with that when most of the party is diurnal by nature and waiting 12+ hours daily just so the vampire PC can participate gets tiresome quickly.
Let's try to avoid repeating that mistake if the goal is for this brainstormed vampire to be usable as a PC in a broader urban fantasy context.
Dracula only lost his powers during the day.
Blade, Buffy and Underworld vampires only burned from direct sun (and so could be indoors, in alleyways, covered in blankets, living in Seattle or parts of England, full biker gear with heavily tinted helmets, etc).
In addition to only being burned by direct sun, Vampire Diaries had "daylight rings" that were relatively easy to acquire (but also acted as a point of vulnerability in some plots).
Basically, if the parties are likely to be mixed then the sunlight vulnerability should be an inconvenience, not a game stopper. Figuring out which approach to that is best is more up in the air.
For example, if you want vampire-only games to be possible where daylight is a major threat, then retaining a severe sun allergy but including an item that is relatively easy to acquire in a broader campaign (ex. TVD's daylight rings had to be created and attuned to the wearer by witches) might be the way to go.
Alternately, if werewolves can also only turn at night, then perhaps putting a similar restriction on magic in general would be an option, making all the supernaturals need to wait for darkness to become active supernaturally (making the vampires' extra vulnerability into an edge case when operating close to dawn... the others only lose their powers, the vampire could burn).
There are many potential approaches, but offering at least one would be a good plan.
I think your praise of a biblical-based origin is biased by you growing up with a Christian background. There are other religions in the world with foundations that could be used with the same emotional impact for people who grew up with those backgrounds.
For example, the Hindu Yamaraja is the king of the underworld and the first man to die. You could use him as the origin of vampires. It won't have the same emotional impact if you're not Hindu. Substitute another mythological figure like Kali, Sekhmet, Ereshkigal, Susanoo, Lucifer, etc. Everlasting had its bloodlines descended from different mythical and historical figures.
But more importantly, after WW drew Cain as a goth pretty boy I can't take the idea seriously. https://www.somethingawful.com/dungeons-and-dragons/vampire-artwork-montreal/11/
That said, I'm not an antichrist who is pathologically opposed to having figures of Abrahamic folklore showup. I had this idea for groups of vampires descended from Lilith and one of her several consorts like Cain, Samael, etc. All these families descend from Lilith, but distinguish themselves by which father they descended from: the House of Cain, the House of Samael, etc.
And I also had ideas for Merovingian vampires who claim descent from Jesus Christ and maybe his apostles too. Yes, I know Dan Brown made that up but I think it would be funny if in the story Dan Brown wrote it as a misinformation tool to discredit people trying to make the truth public.
The above two ideas make use of the idea of hereditary vampires, like those purebloods in Blade, or the legacies in Netflix's First Kill. They were born vampires who knew what they were from the moment they could know anything, never going through a normal human life like the turned/brides/grooms. The children of Lilith are the direct biological descendants of Lilith and her consorts, and can turn mortals into their brides/grooms with a lesser form of vampirism. The Merovingians are the same with Jesus and Mary Magdalene, while his apostles were the first vampire grooms who were turned at the first mass when Jesus gave them his own divine blood. That's what he was referring to when he said they'd be present at his second coming, but the Church covered it up after being horrified to discover the truth.
The Vatican hates the Merovingians more than any other vampires and was responsible for nearly wiping them out multiple times. This is ironic, as the Vatican employs antichrist candidates to hunt them. (Satan has this whole scheme going on where he's impregnated lots of women with potential antichrists, according to the official story).
I love the blasphemous irony of it all. No offense.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 09:39:29 AM
I think your praise of a biblical-based origin is biased by you growing up with a Christian background. There are other religions in the world with foundations that could be used with the same emotional impact for people who grew up with those backgrounds.
Except 90% of the people you'd be writing the game for grew up in de facto Christian countries, soaked in that Mythology. I'm not even religious, but Christian mythos resonates with me by sheer dint of where I was born.
If the idea is to have "emotional impact for those who grew up with those backgrounds" then a Biblical-based origin is in fact the way to go.
I still find it too provincial
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 11:28:43 AM
I still find it too provincial
Then the bias is yours.
How is the mythology of Christians more provincial than that of Hinduism? What you actually mean is, you don't find it exotic.
Ok. I see nothing wrong with trying for something more exotic to switch things up.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2023, 01:32:37 PM
As far as my own attempts go, there are multiple avenues I could explore. For example:
No strains: Every monster, or at least every PC, is unique. There are few to no recurring strains with consistent traits. This is the approach taken by Actual Fucking Monsters.
Single strain: The setting only has a single strain of vampirism. At most, there may be a handful of substrains with minor variations. This is how WitchCraft and Nephilim goes about it. This has the benefit of simplicity, as you don't have much to keep track of.
Multiple sub-strains: The setting has a single strain of vampirism, but there are multiple substrains with variant powers and weaknesses. The divergence from the baseline strain is generally small. The substrains don't necessarily have a singular origin, each one may have a separate origin in time and space, but they follow the same template regardless. VTM and its heartbreakers take this approach. This has the benefit of adding additional customizability and unpredictability while retaining a fair amount of simplicity.
Multiple strains: The setting has multiple strains of vampirism with wildly different properties from one another. Strains may not even resemble what we stereotypically associate with vampires. Substrains are rare or absent. Nightlife uses this approach, representing werewolves, demons, wights and so forth within the same framework as stereotypical vampires. This adds more options while keeping some amount of simplicity.
Multiple strains and substrains: An extension of the above, the setting has a plethora of strains and substrains. To my knowledge, the few examples of this are limited to movies or prose fiction like Captain Kronos, Blackcoat Press' Vampire Almanac books, or the American Vampire comics. This approach is very complicated and I'm not surprised nobody has tried it in the ttrpg scene aside from relatively short toolkits like GURPS Blood Types, Feed or Vampire City.
Each choice will have different pros and cons, requiring different approaches to the worldbuilding and game design. In any case, this choice needs to be made before you do any detailed worldbuilding.
Which of these would you like to see me tackle?
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 22, 2023, 11:09:00 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 09:39:29 AM
I think your praise of a biblical-based origin is biased by you growing up with a Christian background. There are other religions in the world with foundations that could be used with the same emotional impact for people who grew up with those backgrounds.
Except 90% of the people you'd be writing the game for grew up in de facto Christian countries, soaked in that Mythology. I'm not even religious, but Christian mythos resonates with me by sheer dint of where I was born.
If the idea is to have "emotional impact for those who grew up with those backgrounds" then a Biblical-based origin is in fact the way to go.
Pretty much.
In terms of demographics, 57% of the global population identifies as Christian, Muslim or Jewish (i.e. recognize Abrahamic religious elements like Cain/Abel).
The next largest religious affiliation is just over 15% who identify as unaffiliated (including agnostics and atheists) who probably grew up a society where one of the Abrahamic religions shaped the dominant culture.
Only then at just under 15% is Hinduism, then Buddism at 6.6%, then Folk Religion at 5.5% and every other religion on Earth is sitting at about 1% combined.
If you want emotional impact in terms of myth and legend, going with something Old Testament (particularly Genesis through Exodus) starts you at 6-in-10 of the global population and, as stated by Grognard, upwards of 9-in-10 of the people you'll actually be marketing to.
Only in the Wokeville and it's satellites will you find any concentration of non-Abrahamic believers as a potential audience and they'll almost invariably be in the unaffiliated category who will probably be offended if the vampires aren't actually transsparkleponies so why even bother trying to appeal to them?
The only other really viable approach unless you're marketing in India would be to invoke things from the past of Western Civilization; Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Greco-Roman or Norse (maybe Celtic) myths as your foundation point.
You don't have to like it, but pretending that all those other religions hold equal weight with the Abrahamic faiths in popular consciousness is just your self-styled elitism showing (ie. if the masses like it, it can't possibly be good).
There's a market for Antiplot structured films too, but that box office tops out at a couple million dollars, not the potential billion+ of something with mass market appeal. The RPG market is already so small that unless it's a pure vanity project (which is fine if it is and acknowledge it) you should probably be aiming for broader appeal.
Ok.
I ask again: Which approach would you like to see me tackle first?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 01:03:20 PM
Ok.
I ask again: Which approach would you like to see me tackle first?
I don't have a dog in that fight, other than that I think "strain" is already a bit of a loaded term by associating with a science-based infection instead of its more typically supernatural roots.
If you want it to be a strain, then make it something that behaves like a blood-born pathogen (i.e. contact with vampiric blood is sufficient to turn you into a vampire and the only way to avoid turning someone you feed on is either to feed on their blood indirectly or kill the person you're drinking from so they don't turn. Most new vampires arise from incidents where the vampire is unable to confirm a kill and the person stubbornly clings to life long enough to turn.
Of course, being science-based, unless its loosy-goosy comic book science that allows radiation to give people superpowers, a lot of their more supernatural gifts (and weaknesses) should probably not apply.
Let me check wiktionary... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/strain
After reading that entry, I decided I'm gonna keep calling them strains, whether it's a scifi pathogen, magical disease, alien nanomachine infection, contagious demonic possession, transmissible curse, or whatever.
EDIT: Not to discount your point about it being clinical. That's my intent. Anything else sounds twee or mall goth pretentious.
Re: Vampires & Religion
Really different vampire myths (non-Dracula) do exist
I've never seen them implemented anywhere except as window dressing, where they change the name and some "powers" but the vampire is vanquished by the usual means of Holy Water, Holy Symbol. Which I'll inform you is something that not only comes from Abrahamic religions, it's a Christian thing.
This is because 90% of the RPG market IS in the western world, and in places like Japan you also see how the Dracula-Type vampires have infiltrated the popular culture.
I compiled a list of different vampires around the world, I'll have to search it but I'll gladly share it here (again, already did in another thread a year or two ago).
I AM planing on implementing them with different mechanics powers and weaknesses for my game about hunting monsters. But it will also include the typical Dracula-Type.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 22, 2023, 03:51:16 PMReally different vampire myths (non-Dracula) do exist
Care to share? I mean Im aware of lots of undead myths, but very few Vampiric specific myths in what they embody. A Juan-Shi is technically a hopping vampire, but is moreso a zombie for instance.
Like this?
https://www.amazon.com/Vampire-Almanac-Complete-History/dp/1578597196
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 22, 2023, 03:56:29 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 22, 2023, 03:51:16 PMReally different vampire myths (non-Dracula) do exist
Care to share? I mean Im aware of lots of undead myths, but very few Vampiric specific myths in what they embody. A Juan-Shi is technically a hopping vampire, but is moreso a zombie for instance.
No problem, but either latter today or tomorrow since my game is about to start and I'm not sure where the file is.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 01:03:20 PM
Ok.
I ask again: Which approach would you like to see me tackle first?
Multiple strains (clans, bloodlines, families, whatever.)
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 09:39:29 AM
I think your praise of a biblical-based origin is biased by you growing up with a Christian background. There are other religions in the world with foundations that could be used with the same emotional impact for people who grew up with those backgrounds.
For example, the Hindu Yamaraja is the king of the underworld and the first man to die. You could use him as the origin of vampires. It won't have the same emotional impact if you're not Hindu. Substitute another mythological figure like Kali, Sekhmet, Ereshkigal, Susanoo, Lucifer, etc. Everlasting had its bloodlines descended from different mythical and historical figures.
But more importantly, after WW drew Cain as a goth pretty boy I can't take the idea seriously. https://www.somethingawful.com/dungeons-and-dragons/vampire-artwork-montreal/11/
That said, I'm not an antichrist who is pathologically opposed to having figures of Abrahamic folklore showup. I had this idea for groups of vampires descended from Lilith and one of her several consorts like Cain, Samael, etc. All these families descend from Lilith, but distinguish themselves by which father they descended from: the House of Cain, the House of Samael, etc.
And I also had ideas for Merovingian vampires who claim descent from Jesus Christ and maybe his apostles too. Yes, I know Dan Brown made that up but I think it would be funny if in the story Dan Brown wrote it as a misinformation tool to discredit people trying to make the truth public.
The above two ideas make use of the idea of hereditary vampires, like those purebloods in Blade, or the legacies in Netflix's First Kill. They were born vampires who knew what they were from the moment they could know anything, never going through a normal human life like the turned/brides/grooms. The children of Lilith are the direct biological descendants of Lilith and her consorts, and can turn mortals into their brides/grooms with a lesser form of vampirism. The Merovingians are the same with Jesus and Mary Magdalene, while his apostles were the first vampire grooms who were turned at the first mass when Jesus gave them his own divine blood. That's what he was referring to when he said they'd be present at his second coming, but the Church covered it up after being horrified to discover the truth.
The Vatican hates the Merovingians more than any other vampires and was responsible for nearly wiping them out multiple times. This is ironic, as the Vatican employs antichrist candidates to hunt them. (Satan has this whole scheme going on where he's impregnated lots of women with potential antichrists, according to the official story).
I love the blasphemous irony of it all. No offense.
Love your Mero's. Yeah, it owes a lot to Dan, but he owes a lot to Holy Blood, Holy Grail.
Quote from: Aglondir on April 22, 2023, 07:59:29 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 01:03:20 PM
Ok.
I ask again: Which approach would you like to see me tackle first?
Multiple strains (clans, bloodlines, families, whatever.)
Are you sure you don't mean multiple substrains? Multiple strains would be something like Nightlife and Nightcrawlers. Multiple substrains would be a VTM clone/heartbreaker.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 08:31:23 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on April 22, 2023, 07:59:29 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 01:03:20 PM
Ok.
I ask again: Which approach would you like to see me tackle first?
Multiple strains (clans, bloodlines, families, whatever.)
Are you sure you don't mean multiple substrains? Multiple strains would be something like Nightlife and Nightcrawlers. Multiple substrains would be a VTM clone/heartbreaker.
Substrains, correct. I messed that up.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2023, 09:15:28 PM
Inspired by the VTM thread and a post from our own BoxCrayonTales pointing to a write up he did : https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ7Nye5r0Dhm8Cp7D81stTbAWsFrl1Gxg7dpmRo5DRNJAtDcyZL0FOwAfNid4-r2yVFSLgATKj4cs89/pub (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ7Nye5r0Dhm8Cp7D81stTbAWsFrl1Gxg7dpmRo5DRNJAtDcyZL0FOwAfNid4-r2yVFSLgATKj4cs89/pub)
So, there's a Bloodlines build, IMHO each line should have some unique power/weakness, also in the write up there's no mechanical info, so let's try and do that for the OSR.
Powers:
Animal Control – bats, wolves, rats, etc.
Charm –
Climb walls like a spider –
Control of the elements – Wind, rain and other natural phenomena.
Create darkness –
Curse –
Flight – Fly without any outside influence.
Fog people's minds (improved implant a whole set of memories) –
Immortal – The power to never age and recover from almost any injury.
Intangibility –
Invisibility –
Magic –
Misting – Turning into mist
Paralyze –
Read memories of it's victims –
Shapeshifting – taking on the appearance of other people or changing into a bat.
Telekinesis – Manipulate objects/matter with the mind.
Telepathy – Vampires can sometimes read/sense another person's thoughts, communicate with them mentally and/or influence their minds/thoughts.
Unnatural Healing – To heal rapidly from any physical injury.
Unnatural Senses – Vampires have uncanny senses. They better sight, smell, hearing, taste, and sense of touch.
Unnatural Speed – Vampires can move at faster than the human eye.
Unnatural Strength – The power to exert great strength.
Vision – Night/Heat or Blood flow
I have been working on a modern New England Horror game (not OSR so it isn't a d20 system or anything like that). With Vampires I initially went very Nosferatu, with them being a product of a pact with the Devil (the setting is steeped in that kind of lore). However I found I really needed the more charming Hollywood vampires as well to round things out. And I also found a lot of other places where I could fold in a lot of variants based on different events and urban legends. One that I drew on was the New England Vampire panic, which is a bit of a misnomer as the people panicking never called them vampires to my knowledge but the papers covering the event did. This one was based around consumption and vampires served as an explanation for why members of a household would follow one another to the grave. They are quite different and something I realized adding them as a variant is sometimes stripping away abilities and powers is just as useful as adding them or changing them.
Quote from: Aglondir on April 22, 2023, 08:38:24 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 08:31:23 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on April 22, 2023, 07:59:29 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 01:03:20 PM
Ok.
I ask again: Which approach would you like to see me tackle first?
Multiple strains (clans, bloodlines, families, whatever.)
Are you sure you don't mean multiple substrains? Multiple strains would be something like Nightlife and Nightcrawlers. Multiple substrains would be a VTM clone/heartbreaker.
Substrains, correct. I messed that up.
Ok, great.
As I mentioned in the other thread, this is structure used by VTM and its heartbreakers. I don't know if VTM invented it, as older RPGs like Chill and D&D used their Eurovampire as the template for other varieties and Tomb of Dracula might have done the same, but VTM certainly popularized it.
Under this structure, the vampires all use the same basic romanticized/simplified template (usually undead, drinks blood, allergic to sunlight) with various RPG classes (or skill-based equivalents) placed on top. VTM explains this as the result of all vampires descending from a single original vampire, whereas Everlasting instead has multiple founders who all independently contracted the same curse from an unknown source, VTR provides no canonical explanation and leaves it up to the GM, The Vampire - Alone in the Darkness instead has several tribes of "shadow demons" that reanimate the recently deceased as vampires (these demons do have geographical origins given because they're partly based on folklore, but what actually created them isn't explained), Vampyre Hack mentions "blood gods" as the origins of vampires but doesn't explain where the blood gods came from outside of unverifiable in-character myths and legends, and Strands of Power says nobody verifiably knows where vampires come from but invent plenty of explanations.
These games generally assume vampires typically come into existence by a vampire turning a mortal like a transmissible curse/pathogen, going all the way back to a hypothetical founder who wasn't turned by another vampire. This initiation process leads to vampires often organizing themselves into hierarchical families based on their shared lineage: vampire son, vampire dad, vampire grandpa, etc. Like any pathogen, they often display a genetic imperative to promote the propagation and continued existence of their bloodline.
Alone in the Darkness is unique in this respect: all vampires come into existence as the result of a shadow demon possessing and reanimating a corpse. These vampires cannot turn mortals into vampires on-demand, though they may make empty promises of this to lure familiars into service. They cannot form families in the conventional sense, at most they can form guilds based on shared skillsets, so they're more likely to fraternize with different castes.
I don't want to reinvent Alone in the Darkness, so I'm going to use transmissible vampirism; although I'm going to give different bloodlines different ways to transmit their vampirism. As a compromise I would include the option for vampires to join a different bloodline by swearing a magical blood oath to that bloodline (this is inspired by the Anita Blake vampires, and you might notice a similar rule appeared in VTR).
In my list of bloodlines linked in the OP, you'll notice I did something similar to Vampyre Hack by making the bloodlines directly comparable to VTM on a 1:1 basis. However, I think I took more liberty with the comparisons compared to Vampyre Hack. With VTM the classes are based on specific vampire media like Dracula, Interview with the Vampire or Necroscope, or even non-vampire media like Sazan Eyes. As the author of Vampyre Hack explained on his blog, they're based on an extremely weird collection of stereotypes. By contrast, Everlasting seemingly picked most of their inspiration out of an academic research book on vampire folklore: bloodlines get their themes based on their founder, like Dracula, Bathory, Kali, Lilith, the Moche creator god, etc. These games usually don't present more than a dozen bloodlines in their rulebooks, if that.
To get it out of the way now, I'm not going to have a fixed number of bloodlines. There could easily be hundreds, or there could just be three. I'll try to avoid forcing my bloodlines to fulfill arbitrary archetypes or stereotypes, as I feel that led to the problems afflicting VTM. The archetype approach works if you limit the number of bloodlines to no more than a half-dozen, but it breaks down the moment you try to add any more than that. For the purpose of comparison, I'll address both extremes.
If I'm emphasizing the game aspect and don't want extraneous moving parts, then it makes sense to limit the number of classes to three or so. We can classify their general themes by Hogwarts Houses: Gryffindor, Slytherin, and Ravenclaw. The Gryffindors are defined by passion, whether that be activist, lover or sailor. The Slytherins are defined by ambition: this is where you find socialites, puppet masters, and self-styled lords of the night. The Ravenclaws are defined by occultism: this is where you find wizards, necromancers, phantom thieves and psychic ninjas. This approach is great if you're making an actual video game, as it heavily reduces your overhead.
At the other extreme is having an unlimited number of bloodlines. Logistically there are probably only a few hundred bloodlines worldwide, but they're not all detailed in the rules so writers and groups have a lot of leeway to invent new ones as needed for adventures. This option is great for creative types who want to make a bunch of adventures and keep players on their toes by introducing unpredictable bloodlines, or satisfy players who want to play snowflakes. However, the downside is that you can pretty much say goodbye to any sense of what constitutes a "typical" adventure in terms of vampire society's composition. Every city and region's social composition would be essentially unique, unless you claim that a dozen or half-dozen classes constitute the majority and everything else is weird outlier. But I don't find that damper any fun.
When inventing bloodlines/classes willy-nilly, I like to imagine a few possible themes, think about where I want to take the class and then organize that into stories. For example, if I want a bloodline of blood bathers then I want to imagine where they came from and how that affects them. At the same time, I want to avoid falling into the silly trap of writing them as cookie cutter high school cliques. That got old for me. Unless they're actually organized into a secret society with a coherent goal, then it doesn't make sense for all vampires of the same class to think and act according to a standardized template. I don't want to encourage players to tell other players "You're playing your class wrong!"
Obviously, I'm never going to get it perfect. But I like to try anyway.
Every bloodline descends from a founder, someone who became a vampire in a way other than turned by another vampire. Maybe the founder was a deity who used their powers to turns their cultists into vampires. Maybe the founder committed atrocities and was damned (rewarded?) by some high power with a twisted sense of humor/irony. Maybe the founder swore vengeance on humanity with their dying breath and their wish was granted by non-specific dark powers. Maybe the founder sought out an archfiend to make a pact with Hell. Maybe they used black magic to turn themselves into a vampire or stole vampirism from another vampire. How ever the founder became a vampire, they went on to found their own bloodline.
Bloodlines can also be further divided by whether they're a mutation of an older bloodline. The older a bloodline is, the murkier its history and the harder it is to verify their origin, so this is as much GM tool as it is lore.
The founder of a bloodline is also its head vampire. If you kill a founder, then all their descendants will die with them... within some exceptions. A vampire who achieves a sufficiently high level will become a head vampire who generates their own animating force, so they and their descendants aren't reliant on another head vampire.
A vampire of a different bloodline can swear a magical blood oath to a head vampire in order to connect to their animating force. This allows the convert to gain the traits of that bloodline and to survive the destruction of their original head vampire. This is the explanation behind multiclassing, if that is used.
A vampire's level/XP is an abstract measurement of their general mystical power (and I guess mundane capacities, if you care). A vampire's XP can fluctuate for a variety of reasons, depending on the needs of the adventure. Your starting PC could have an elaborate backstory as an ancient vampire lord, but starts at level one because their power was lost due to magical injury, too much time in stasis, memory loss, or whatever other explanation you would like to use.
In Everlasting vampires start with a level equal to half that of the vampire that created them (inspired by Anne Rice, again), although at the same time those character creation rules assume that PCs started at a standard value. Your campaigns will probably have a starting level based on the needs of said campaign rather than automatically at 1 or whatever, so I'm leaving the lore behind this part vague for now until I had more concrete guidelines.
I'm not really a fan of intravampire cannibalism because I feel VTM fans turned into loony worshipers of the idea and I feel it distracts from the horror of vampires preying on muggles. So, taking a page from Everlasting (which takes its page from Anne Rice), vampires of higher XP can donate their XP to vampires of lower XP. In the setting, weaker vampires may serve stronger vampires in order to get XP donations and increase their own power, although this steadily weakens the donor because they're donating their own XP. Drinking the XP of higher-level vampires causes the drinker to develop an emotional addiction to that donor's XP specifically, which the donor can exploit to manipulate the drinker. When their respective XP eventually equalizes, this effect fades. The higher-level vampire may in turn desire to drink from the lower-level vampire: this doesn't cause the same emotional dependency, but vampires find blood play among each other extremely pleasurable to the point of addiction.
You can use a house rule to add VTM-style blood bonds, or to add a VTR-style elder vampires must feed on other vampires dynamic, but I'm not using those by default.
In order to maintain the horror of being a vampire (assuming your game is trying to maintain a serious somber horror atmosphere, and adjudicating the sliding scale of horror deserves its own post anyhow), vampires can only gain complete and balanced sustenance by sucking blood from a live human being (or a fresh human corpse). Assuming you care. Bagged blood rapidly loses its ability to provide nourishment, so vampires cannot buy blood bags from a corrupt hospital nurse and store them in their fridge for later. Sucking other vampires provides no nourishment, but to a vampire it feels at least as good as having sex does for the living (see above). Sucking animals can sustain a vampire physically, but their mind will slowly deteriorate to the level of an animal.
As with joining other bloodlines, vampires can suck each other in order to share their powers, a la Anne Rice. However, in order to discourage muchkinism and the dilution of classes, a vampire who makes a habit of sucking other vampires or swearing blood oaths will suffer from... (said in a spooky voice) mutation! Again, assuming you care. If you want to play Mary Sue the Vampiress who triple multi-classes then by all means do so.
I've been describing this in terms of a level-based system, and I'd like to say one thing about that before moving on. A humanity mechanic is untenable under this structure, or even a skill-based system for that matter. The simple fact of the matter is you don't have a choice between playing a vampire versus a human (or vampire trying to be human). Unless the system is built around a darkside/lightside mechanic where advancement in human traits or vampire traits are mutually exclusive (like in
Feed), then it becomes a game of supervillain versus superhero with a vampire theme. Nothing wrong with that, as several of my ideas for splats are vampire superheroes, but I must point it out because this has a direct effect on the horror atmosphere (if any) and ludonarrative harmony/dissonance. As I've said before, VTM has a ton of ludonarrative dissonance in this regard because it ignores the obvious transhumanist supervillain/superhero dichotomy that underlies it.
As for an actual listing and writeups of classes/bloodlines... well, you've seen my lists of ideas and those of others. Some concepts aren't really appropriate for player characters, like that one coven of creepy identical-looking child vampires that use liberal mind control to make adults take care of them.
I actually don't know where to start with writeups. What classes are available to your players is going to depend on what your want your campaigns to be about. I've spent a lot of time on this post already so I'm going end it here and await your advice. Hope you enjoy!
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 23, 2023, 01:07:11 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on April 22, 2023, 08:38:24 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 08:31:23 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on April 22, 2023, 07:59:29 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2023, 01:03:20 PM
Ok.
I ask again: Which approach would you like to see me tackle first?
Multiple strains (clans, bloodlines, families, whatever.)
Are you sure you don't mean multiple substrains? Multiple strains would be something like Nightlife and Nightcrawlers. Multiple substrains would be a VTM clone/heartbreaker.
Substrains, correct. I messed that up.
Ok, great... <snip>... I'm going end it here and await your advice. Hope you enjoy!
Maybe next time, chop that into different posts! (LOL)
Founder/OriginI don't have any strong opinions here; all of your ideas are good. But there is one idea on my No list: No humans merged with demons. White Wolf tried this at least three times (Mummy, Demon, Geist) and it fell flat each time.
TransmissionI prefer a single way to create vampires, for simplicity's sake. As for joining a bloodline after swearing an oath, it robs the game of some of the fatalism I like, but I'd have to see your specifics.
BloodlinesI agree that VTM was all over the place. I like the Everlasting approach (founder-based) and don't like the Gurps Bloodlines approach (worldwide folklore-based.) There's also the game-based approach, where the bloodlines are based on what players do in the game (fighter, magic user, rogue, etc.) but that may be too meta for your tastes. I'm not in favor of sub-bloodlines (sub-substrains?) Again, keep it simple.
Number of BloodlinesI prefer a fixed number, 5 to 9. Less is too limiting; more is too dizzying. Sure it can lead to stereotypes, but it solves the "know your role" issue. Allowing players to create bloodlines is terrible. It will result in snowflakes and world dissolution (as you point out) and also munchkin-ism.
Gryffindor, Slytherin, and RavenclawThis is great! But three is not enough. Again, 5 to 9.
Advancement The donating XP (etc.) model is too convoluted for me, but maybe you can make it work. For my own game (and at this point I have probably forked down a path you don't wish to go) is class/level based. Class = bloodline, Level = power/age. Players normally start at Level 1 (newly turned) but you could start at Level 15 if you wanted to play a vampire from 1307.
Vampire cannibalism Yeah, I'm not a fan of VTM's Diablerie either, but I do like it when ancient vampires must hunt other vampires. Instant badguys! And that's going to be a challenge—who are your badguys? If the answer is another supernatural (werewolves, demons, Cthulu, etc.) then you're going to end up with an Urban Fantasy game. Someone is going to demand to play one of those. Happens every time.
Darkside/lightside mechanicI've never seen this produce anything but arguments, whether it is VTM's humanity, Star Wars' dark side, or D&D's alignments. BUT I do love the idea of "becoming more of a vampire means becoming less of a human" which sounds like what Feed is doing. Not "Oh noes, I killed someone and that's wrong, I lose a point of something" but "When I gained the ability to turn into a wolf, I lost my taste for human food."
My adviceYour writeups of bloodlines is excellent. I'd recommend picking 5 to 9 of your favorites, matching it up to a rules system, and seeing where it goes from there. I think you can probably sense that the game I'd like is about 90-degrees off from your ideas, so I'm going to hold off on any criticism or feedback, unless you ask a specific question.
I'm typing on my phone so I can't respond to your points individually yet. All my ideas are still in flux. If you think a particular mechanic won't work, then removing it would be the obvious solution. I'm not attached to stuff like the XP donation, so dropping it would be fine if you agree.
VTR does the 5–9 splat structure you suggest. I find that its additions are more or less unjustifiable. The Ventrue, Mekhet and Gangrel are directly comparable to the Slytherin, Ravenclaw and Gryffindor respectively. Daeva is a mix of Gryffindor and Slytherin. Nosferatu is "you got hit by the ugly stick." Julii are Slytherin, Akhud are Ravenclaw. I can't really justify to myself doing more than the three, but I can try if I had a really convincing foundation for it.
For comparison, I really like how Nephilim used the classical elements/humors (plus a fifth element of Moon) as the foundation for its splats. These elements had a lot of cultural cache to draw from, while also being broad enough to avoid pigeonholing. You think the five elements would work here? Or something else maybe?
One idea I didn't bring up last post was this: instead of bloodlines having talents with multiple sets of powers, one idea I saw elsewhere (Vampire: Undeath, yes I know it's terrible but it has some ideas) was that all vampires have access to a common suite of powers and each bloodline has one unique talent. The common suite of powers would include physical augmentation, supernatural movement (wallcrawling, levitation, flight, short range teleportation, etc) and personal magnetism. An interesting idea I saw in Everlasting is that every bloodline has affinity with different animals when it comes to commanding animals or shapeshifting, rather than shapeshifting being the shtick of a single bloodline. Everlasting does something similar with magic, giving several bloodlines unique magical styles based on their cultural heritage rather than making a single wizard bloodline.
Quote from: Aglondir on April 23, 2023, 05:58:16 PM
Founder/Origin
I don't have any strong opinions here; all of your ideas are good. But there is one idea on my No list: No humans merged with demons. White Wolf tried this at least three times (Mummy, Demon, Geist) and it fell flat each time.
Alone in the Darkness takes a different approach from those. The demons are a plot device that explain certain aspects of vampirism. They're not characters, they don't have personalities, they don't have backstories... the original human personality and memories are still in control, albeit warped by the demon's hunger for blood. I also think the demonic possession angle better explains why vampires of the same caste display trends in their behavior that cannot be explained solely by their demonic talents.
QuoteTransmission
I prefer a single way to create vampires, for simplicity's sake. As for joining a bloodline after swearing an oath, it robs the game of some of the fatalism I like, but I'd have to see your specifics.
The transmission rules won't be very detailed. I just find the homogeneity boring after a while. Vampyre Hack has this interesting rule where only one of the classes starts with the ability to create new vampires, whereas others have to learn it during play. I thought that was interesting and want to further explore that. But it's largely a fluff thing. Much of the time different methods will be cosmetic, probably, but in other cases the ritual would be vital in explaining aspects of how the class's associated secret society functions. For example, a bloodline who became vampires using a magic ritual have to perform the same ritual every time they initiate a new member and this creates a bottleneck that their leaders use to maintain tighter control. Another contrasting example would be a bloodline entirely of self-made vampires who all independently recreate the same necromantic ritual: they don't have a tightly nit fraternity structure and operate more like subscribers and contributors to a scientific journal.
Joining another bloodline is more or less just an explanation for multiclassing, kits/subclasses, or prestige classes, but only if those are allowed.
QuoteBloodlines
I agree that VTM was all over the place. I like the Everlasting approach (founder-based) and don't like the Gurps Bloodlines approach (worldwide folklore-based.) There's also the game-based approach, where the bloodlines are based on what players do in the game (fighter, magic user, rogue, etc.) but that may be too meta for your tastes. I'm not in favor of sub-bloodlines (sub-substrains?) Again, keep it simple.
Everlasting technically uses a hybrid of the two. Most of the bloodlines are based on real vampire folklore, like the nosferatus, obayifo, lilitu, etc.
It's not too meta for my tastes. It is a game, so designing classes that way may be more helpful than something vague and wishy-washy.
The sublines thing is pure fluff. I'm not gonna add an additional set of rules for it where you take a second prestige class that requires another prestige class; that is just ridiculous. At most it will be an explanation for where subclasses or class variants come from.
QuoteNumber of Bloodlines
I prefer a fixed number, 5 to 9. Less is too limiting; more is too dizzying. Sure it can lead to stereotypes, but it solves the "know your role" issue. Allowing players to create bloodlines is terrible. It will result in snowflakes and world dissolution (as you point out) and also munchkin-ism.
I'm not gonna be able to stop groups from wanting snowflakes. I read B.J. Zanzibar's archives. I figure that I might as well account for it rather than pretend it will never come up. Maybe not immediately, but eventually. Content creep is really hard to avoid.
QuoteGryffindor, Slytherin, and Ravenclaw
This is great! But three is not enough. Again, 5 to 9.
See my last post.
QuoteAdvancement
The donating XP (etc.) model is too convoluted for me, but maybe you can make it work. For my own game (and at this point I have probably forked down a path you don't wish to go) is class/level based. Class = bloodline, Level = power/age. Players normally start at Level 1 (newly turned) but you could start at Level 15 if you wanted to play a vampire from 1307.
As I said, I'm not attached to this mechanic. I can just drop it entirely.
I don't want to put in a strict correlation between level and in-character age. I feel that can be too restrictive and nonsensical. If the campaign starts in contemporary times and don't move very far into the future, then the PCs achieving high levels would break any attempt at correspondence between level and in-character age. If there's no strict correlation, then a starting PC could have a backstory as a centuries old vampire but still be level 1 for whatever reason (injury, laziness, luck, etc).
QuoteVampire cannibalism
Yeah, I'm not a fan of VTM's Diablerie either, but I do like it when ancient vampires must hunt other vampires. Instant badguys! And that's going to be a challenge—who are your badguys? If the answer is another supernatural (werewolves, demons, Cthulu, etc.) then you're going to end up with an Urban Fantasy game. Someone is going to demand to play one of those. Happens every time.
I do think cannibals can work purely as antagonists. I have this idea where some vampires just lose interest in being part of any society and turn into pure nightmare monsters that live on the periphery of civilization and eat any unfortunate mortals or vampires they happen across. This isn't like VTM's feral beast degeneration thing, these nightmare monsters can still possess the same intellect they had in life they just don't value temporal power or social interaction anymore. Some can be packs of feral beasts by an alpha, if desired.
If other magical creatures exist, then they're limited to NPCs or are integrated into the rules as PC options who freely fraternize with the others
Nightlife style. But the latter would require (re)designing the setting and rules from a new/different starting point.
QuoteDarkside/lightside mechanic
I've never seen this produce anything but arguments, whether it is VTM's humanity, Star Wars' dark side, or D&D's alignments. BUT I do love the idea of "becoming more of a vampire means becoming less of a human" which sounds like what Feed is doing. Not "Oh noes, I killed someone and that's wrong, I lose a point of something" but "When I gained the ability to turn into a wolf, I lost my taste for human food."
Yes. I'm glad you like it. The rules in that game were built around this premise from the ground up, so they're much more abstracted compared to other rule systems. It's a pure skill-based system: there's no separate attribute scores or wealth bonuses or status ranks, everything is represented by freeform skills. The downside is that the rules simply don't support concepts like vampires getting more powerful with age because there's no real leveling, but the game isn't about accumulating XP and loot so I don't consider this a big loss. Gaining vampire traits turns into you into more and more of a supervillain compared to other vampires, yes, but that's unrelated to in-character age and the book explicitly states that starting PCs can have backstories as centuries old vamps without adjusting their stats due to the abstraction. Anne Rice only added power levels when started writing Lestat as a Gary Stu, so I think the idea can be safely discounted if it doesn't work with the intended themes.
QuoteMy advice
Your writeups of bloodlines is excellent. I'd recommend picking 5 to 9 of your favorites, matching it up to a rules system, and seeing where it goes from there. I think you can probably sense that the game I'd like is about 90-degrees off from your ideas, so I'm going to hold off on any criticism or feedback, unless you ask a specific question.
I've have a few favorites, but the concepts are often redundant. I have at least two classes with the same vampire superhero shtick flavored for different cultures. Maybe it would make sense to decouple class role from vampire strain? For example, instead of having multiple classes with variants of the lord shtick, you have a single archetypal Vampire Lord class and then different subclasses (or races?) for different bloodlines. While they'd use the same class chassis, this wouldn't represent a shared heritage like say VTR does with its five classes (while I think the idea makes sense mechanically and as a way to organize splats and better inform players of the class roles, the fluff implementation was arbitrarily restrictive and resulted in the writers shoehorning weird workarounds to get certain concepts to fit).
Let me know what you think.
I haven't seen it implemented in any ttrpgs other than that awful Vampire: Undeath, but an interesting idea I've seen pop up in vampire fiction in the last couple decades or so is the idea that vampires can read the memories of their victims or each other when they drink their blood. I don't know exactly how far back the idea goes (some form of the idea is present in Anne Rice's Interview novel), but the Netflix/BBC Dracula series makes it a vital plot point. It summarizes the concept as "blood is lives." Lives plural, not life collectively. I.e. they eat souls.
The Underworld movies use it in some scenes, but as a plot device that isn't really explored.
Netflix Dracula gets a lot of mileage out of the idea. Vampires have to be careful about who they eat or the accumulated memories can drive them crazy, apparently. They can steal skills and knowledge, such as learning new languages instantly. They can share memories the same way. Dracula accumulated some of his psychological weaknesses this way, like his aversion to crosses. He explains it as eating too many Christians who were afraid of the cross (the plot was written by a militant atheist apparently).
Christians derive comfort from the cross, not fear. It would make more sense if he had internalized fear because Christians derive comfort from it: it warped into him fearing it due to their belief it protects them from him. Or he despises the feeling of comfort. Whatever.
Vampire: Undeath does something similar. PCs can steal skills this way, although only temporarily. Vampires gradually accumulate memories from their many victims over time, which stresses them out and causes insanity. Older vampires make new vampires for two reasons related to this: the process allows them to learn about the modern world from the new vampire's memories, while the older vamp can simultaneously offload their excess memories onto the new vampire.
It's an interesting idea. That said, it might not be appropriate or relevant to typical gameplay. Let me know what you think.
Great thread indeed!
I like traditional(ish) vampires for their powers, etc. But more on the darker side of things. Salem's Lot, Near Dark, etc. Basically, any cool thing you see in a movie I've pinched.
I'm currently trying a more Lovecraftian approach for their origin, however. Because I like the cosmic horror element and the idea of different Sects as opposed to different tribes. Because I want to avoid a clumsy meta-plot.
In my own urban fantasy attempts, I've tied each of my vampire bloodlines to one of the Seven Deadly Sins (and ergo, to a demon their founder made a pact with at some point in history). The sexy Anne Rice vampires made their pact with Ishtar/Lust. Dracula learned from Satan himself and so is linked to Pride, etc.
Each type has its own infernal gifts and banes based on the Sin they are tied to. They turn others by feeding them their blood over a series of days with the blood weakening the victim's resistance to their sin. Once they are fully engulfed by the sin (typically taking about thee days) they either kill them so they rise as one of their line or turn them into a slave bound to the vampire by the chains of that sin (but unlike Masquerade's ghouls are not immortal, nor do they gain powers from this... they're just mortals in thrall to a sin).
Dhampirs in this are essentially spiritual antibodies, born of a mortal and a new/weak vampire. They have a degree of the vampire's enhanced abilities, but also, like an antibody, has great resilience to vampiric powers (particularly those of their parent's bloodline).
Vampiric power is purely a function of the degree to which they embrace their sin. The more they indulge and partake in it the stronger they become, but conversely, the more bound by it they become.
As an RPG element I'd essentially tie vampiric power to the morality scale... the more sinful you are the more powerful you can become, but the more inhuman their restrictions become.
For example, the deeper into Pride a vampire falls the greater their physical and mental abilities become, but the weaker they get during the light of day and the more "worthy" those they feed upon must become for them to gain nourishment.
Similarly, the deeper into Wrath they fall the greater their powers to become like and control predatory beasts becomes, but the less control over their higher selves and more savage their feeding becomes.
Thus, Vampire PCs would have to toe the line between the power they need to survive and the banes of falling deeper into Sin.
In terms of origin, there would be multiple bloodlines, each descended from figures known or unknown who made a pact with a demon for their power. Cain may have indeed been the first vampire in this because he was the first to murder and reject God, but he committed nowhere near the atrocities of later monsters and, if he even still exists, likely pales in comparison to the likes of Vlad the Impaler.
And before you ask, no Hitler isn't a vampire. No existing vampire would want the competition in turning him and to become the founder of a vampiric line requires a deep dive into the occult and the enactment of horrific rites to break the new founder of their old life and bind them to the demon's will.
In addition, though both are difficult, there would be two ways to end the curse of vampirism. The first is to radically turn from sin and embrace the opposing virtue to such a degree that it wipes the vice from you.
This isn't just, give a hungry person a meal and you're free of Greed... this would be the radical divestment of all material goods to charity and then continuing to work while giving everything to charity for possibly a lifetime before the curse is wiped clean.
The second is to find and kill the founder of your bloodline; whereupon all of that line revert to mortality. Killing a non-founder only frees any of its mortal thralls from their slavery.
* * * *
Basically, you'd have seven primary "strains" though each of those likely has multiple founders (Dracula isn't the only mortal who swore himself to Satan/Pride, just the most well known... indeed his hubris was such that he inspired Stoker to write about him and thus make his name known to the masses as THE vampire).
Each strain would have certain core powers and banes tied to their linked sin. Each would also have something akin a "hierarchy of sin" to determine how much power they can attain and what degree their banes affect them.
By sharing blood vampires can take on other supernatural sins and their powers and banes in accord with its hierarchy of sins.
* * * *
Anyway, that's my (Sears Tower) elevator pitch for a take on urban fantasy vampires.
Quote from: Chris2460Anyway, that's my (Sears Tower) elevator pitch for a take on urban fantasy vampires
Love it! It hits alot of notes that resonate with me (Chritianity, seperate demon founders makes sense, turning, behavior, redemption...) Nice work.
But I'm having trouble picturing a few of the bloodlines-- what they look like and what they do. Pride, wrath, greed, lust... perfect. But what do envy vampires do? Do sloth vampires do anything at all? Are gluttony vampires like Baron Harkonnen?
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 25, 2023, 08:57:31 AM
Vampiric power is purely a function of the degree to which they embrace their sin. The more they indulge and partake in it the stronger they become, but conversely, the more bound by it they become.
This is essentially how vampirism operates in
Feed BTW. Vampiric traits are quite powerful, but the more vampiric a character becomes then the worse their Hunger can get, the harder time they'll have resisting indulging, and the less human traits they have to do human things. It doesn't have the more personalized approach you describe here (except for the bit about losing human functionality), but the rules are simple and flexible enough that you could add something like this onto the existing rules. You could customize the temptations and compulsions for each strain, or have every vampiric trait inflict a new thematic weakness.
Quote from: Aglondir on April 25, 2023, 01:49:12 PM
Quote from: Chris2460Anyway, that's my (Sears Tower) elevator pitch for a take on urban fantasy vampires
Love it! It hits alot of notes that resonate with me (Chritianity, seperate demon founders makes sense, turning, behavior, redemption...) Nice work.
But I'm having trouble picturing a few of the bloodlines-- what they look like and what they do. Pride, wrath, greed, lust... perfect. But what do envy vampires do? Do sloth vampires do anything at all? Are gluttony vampires like Baron Harkonnen?
Envy is the desire to be in someone else's shoes so they're the shapeshifters who can also steal the memories of others, but are plagued by obsessive behavior (ie. classic stalking naturally but also the sort of OCD behavior that has them counting spilled grains of rice). They don't just steal your life by drinking from you... they steal your LIFE from you.
Sloth vampires become more resilient in mind and body, gain powers related to dream and sleep, but suffer the bane of daysleep that is increasingly hard to shake.
Gluttons gain the ability to feed on more than just blood so long as it is tied to life in some reasonable way; flesh, breath, years of someone's life; and gain the strengths of their victims, but are cursed with ever more insatiable hunger and the weaknesses of their victims as well.
I don't know how it 100% rolls in Christianity, but I feel Gluttony can be more than just eating. It can be about different forms of hedonistic behavior and sensory overload.
Lust on the other hand is about wanting things you shouldn't have (as opposed to hating others for having them). So they could include power-hungry demon summoners and pacters with demons and the like. As well as being the sexiest (maybe).
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 25, 2023, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on April 25, 2023, 01:49:12 PM
Quote from: Chris2460Anyway, that's my (Sears Tower) elevator pitch for a take on urban fantasy vampires
Love it! It hits alot of notes that resonate with me (Chritianity, seperate demon founders makes sense, turning, behavior, redemption...) Nice work.
But I'm having trouble picturing a few of the bloodlines-- what they look like and what they do. Pride, wrath, greed, lust... perfect. But what do envy vampires do? Do sloth vampires do anything at all? Are gluttony vampires like Baron Harkonnen?
Envy is the desire to be in someone else's shoes so they're the shapeshifters who can also steal the memories of others, but are plagued by obsessive behavior (ie. classic stalking naturally but also the sort of OCD behavior that has them counting spilled grains of rice). They don't just steal your life by drinking from you... they steal your LIFE from you.
Sloth vampires become more resilient in mind and body, gain powers related to dream and sleep, but suffer the bane of daysleep that is increasingly hard to shake.
Gluttons gain the ability to feed on more than just blood so long as it is tied to life in some reasonable way; flesh, breath, years of someone's life; and gain the strengths of their victims, but are cursed with ever more insatiable hunger and the weaknesses of their victims as well.
I must be an Envy vampire, since I wish I had thought of this (LOL)
Any chance you could writeup a few sentences about each of the 7 bloodlines?
I like the idea of the 7 deadly sins.
Quote from: Aglondir on April 25, 2023, 06:28:43 PM
Any chance you could writeup a few sentences about each of the 7 bloodlines?
Alrighty, here goes.
Vampires embodying the sin of Pride see their physical and mental attributes greatly heightened to beyond mortal levels. Their weakness is they lose these abilities or even find their baseline abilities hindered in the daytime (i.e. their pride is only justified in the dark of night... in the harsh light of day they're nothing special). Their bloodline founders swear fealty to Satan himself, the great dragon, and so I would label this type the Dracul (Vlad Tepes being the archetypal 'Dracula').
The sin of Wrath brings out feral impulses that allow the vampire to take on animal-like traits and command savage beasts. Their weakness is an underlying rage that grows with their embrace of sin.
The sin of Lust grants a vampire powers of emotional manipulation and inhuman beauty with the weakness of being a growing emotional deadness (outside of rage if they have gained the sin of wrath) outside of sheer depravity as the pleasures of the flesh become too mundane to stimulate them.
The sin of Greed grants a vampire telekinetic control over objects (all material goods belong to them) and an insatiable hunger to possess and flaunt material goods.
As mentioned, the sin of Envy produces a vampire who doesn't just take your life when they feed, they can take your LIFE by adopting the form and stealing the memories of those they feed upon. Their weakness though is obsession and stalker-ish behavior towards those they envy.
The sin of Gluttony allows the vampire to consume anything related to life and take on aspects of what they consume (you are what you eat). They are cursed with insatiable hunger far beyond that of normal vampires.
The sin of Sloth grants a vampire both incredible resilience (resistance to change) and command over dreams and sleep (at high levels they can even feed on victims through their dreams), but suffer from lethargy in daytime that at higher levels is practically indistinguishable from death.
IIRC Requiem Chronicler's Guide did something like this. One of the minisettings associated each of the five clans with one of the seven deadly sins. Since this was adhoc, the association wasn't airtight and two sins didn't have clans. I don't have the book on hand so I can't check the associations, but I don't think that matters anyway.
A conceptual problem I have with the seven deadly sins is that they're fairly arbitrary. Why seven? Why those specifically? I've seen Despair, Vanity and Doubt named as 8th-10th sins, including in rpg blogs (https://eternitypublishing.wordpress.com/2011/08/31/articleredesigning-the-10-hells/). Their scopes are fairly narrow, to such a degree that I've seen many treatments that expand their scope, including in this very thread. The problem with that is it causes the expanded sins to overlap, and trying to protect their expanded niches results in adding more arbitrary distinctions to keep them from overlapping.
This is particularly a problem with Lust, Greed, and Gluttony. These three are essentially the same sin of materialistic indulgence, more so than the other sins, but focusing on different targets. In their original conceptions Lust is the indulgence of sex, Greed the indulgence of money, and Gluttony the indulgence of food. Removing their specific targets causes them to blur together, so you have to add new arbitrary distinctions to maintain the difference. To the degree that you'd need a question and answer flowchart to track which acts constitute which sin, which just makes using the seven deadly sins pointlessly complicated.
Even Wrath is just the indulgence of violence. Dante bizarrely decided to add a Circle of Violence to Hell in addition to the Circle of Wrath, which feels really arbitrary to me. How can one be Wrathful without being violent? Psychological violence may not inflict physical wounds, but it's still violence. Yelling at and insulting someone on a regular basis is obviously violent. Simply being angry all the time but having the willpower and habit to keep it under wraps might fit the bill, but is suppressing violent urges because you know better really sufficient to constitute a sin? That just seems like arbitrarily punishing people for not being Buddhist monks.
Chronicles of Darkness 1e suffered from this in spades, especially since they didn't bother to provide concrete examples. Lust was explained as a vague "victimizing others to get what you want" without specifying sexuality, and one NPC had their statblock specify their vice was "lust for beauty, not sex" (which implied Lust was about sex by default, which the virtue rules didn't specify). Some were vague and wishy-washy to the point of being incomprehensible. How does your PC "forge meaning from chaos" and on a sufficiently regular basis to justify picking that virtue? Although the fandom, as usual, only focused on how offended they were that Christian symbolism was used. Never mind that the virtues they used were the theological and cardinal virtues that originated from pagan thought co-opted by the Catholic Church, not the seven heavenly virtues. 2e simply replaced it with "invent your own virtues," which also broke any rules that relied on characters having specific virtues (such as, oh, the entire book on demons where their powers were themed after the seven deadly sins and even rated these as statistics) and made the entire concept of any rules reliant on specific virtues untenable, essentially defeating the point of having a defined virtue/vice mechanic in the first place. Oh, and all the games other than the core mortals game didn't use virtues/vices at all and just replaced it with nature/demeanor from World of Darkness. You can well imagine why I left that fandom and haven't cracked open any of the books in a decade.
To be fair, Catholic doctrine actually makes those sins much more distinct.
Greed, for example, isn't the desire for worldly things (if it were the starving man sins by desiring food), rather it is the hoarding of material goods past one's needs and neglecting the needs of others. It is all about acquisition. It is the sin against charity.
Gluttony, by contrast is all about consumption; of desire for pleasure resulting in the wasting goods that would be better used for other purposes. Of note, gluttony can include overindulgence in sexual appetites as well.
Finally, Lust isn't sexual desire. God gave us sexual desire to fulfill one of our purposes (be fruitful and multiply). Rather it is in objectifying others, focusing on using them to fulfill your desires, rather than focusing on fulfilling the other's needs. Again, lust is not just sexual, but any time we treat people as tools to achieve our ends.
It is banal pop culture that has watered down the terms to be similar... but language evolves so perhaps the names of the deadly sins must as well; perhaps the sins of Hoarding, Waste and Objectification would make the distinctions more clear.
ETA: Vanity is just Pride by a different name. Similarly, Sloth is defined in Catholic doctrine as not 'laziness' but spiritual despair and apathy... so despair/doubt are covered by it.
People keep trying to pretend they've invented new modes of behavior, but almost invariably it's something very old given a different coat of paint.
ETA2: it's seven because in Christian symbolism it represents "totality." Specifically four (the material world; four elements, four seasons, four directions, four humours, etc.) + three (the spiritual world; the trinity particularly for Christians).
This is also why twelve (three x four) is significant and has a similar meaning of completeness.
Seven is also likely because it's about the limit of elements you can hold in your short term memory at the same time.
Renaming them to more appropriate words makes sense... but then you run into the problem of losing the immediate identification with the seven deadly sins. But whatever.
As for the other three sins being redundant... well, the treatment I linked to added them in order to maintain the nine circles of Hell. Ditching Dante's lower levels for not fitting the seven deadly sins requires adding two more sins to meet the nine circle quota, and at that point a tenth circle/sin doesn't sound so odd. Over in the comments someone asks the author to explain the additional sins in more detail and he said this:
QuoteI think the additional three sins can be seen as derivatives of others, but the 10 Sin format fits the classic 9 Hells of D&D (Or 9 + Lucifer's Prison) much better than a 7 Sin format and I strongly believe that the Devils of D&D SHOULD be linked to the sins otherwise you miss a massive opportunity to give them more character and personality.
I mean the various Devils as they stand basically mean nothing. They are just monsters. By giving them a stronger identity linked to the sins we create far more interesting role-playing opportunities. So Demons are the corruption of the physical; whereas Devils are the corruption of the spiritual.
As regards various subsets (suicide under rage instead of despair) I was probably working from established lists I have found rather than thinking each through individually. HOWEVER, there is nothing to say there couldn't be a Rage Devil associated with Suicide AS WELL AS a Despair Devil associated with Suicide.
QuoteAs regards the other 3 sins 'standing out'. From a physical level that's easy since I already listed energy types, colours, animals and so forth.
On an environmental level:
– Sloth: Swamp or thick undergrowth that always seems to slow your progress to the destination that always seems on the horizon.
– Despair: Dismal 'blank' area devoid of colour (black and white) with sobbing or wailing noises in the background, voices whispering there is no hope.
– Discouragement: Battlements and Defenses sometimes arrayed in multiplicity (ie. a Castle on top of a Castle), Murder Holes everywhere. Voices telling you to turn back, go away, only death awaits here, you have no chance of victory.
Secondary effects could be:
– Sloth: Leading to Filth (setting it in opposition to Vanity) and thus also disease; possible connection to the Daemons.
– Despair: Leading to Suicide (setting it in opposition to Lust perhaps)
– Discouragement: Leading to Prison/Punishment. While the Hells are themselves a 'prison' of sorts, The discouragement sin must always be the most draconian and least compromising. Perhaps the most lawful of the Hells, setting it in opposition to Wrath which is potentially the least lawful.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 26, 2023, 11:44:01 AM
Chronicles of Darkness 1e suffered from this in spades, especially since they didn't bother to provide concrete examples. Lust was explained as a vague "victimizing others to get what you want" without specifying sexuality, and one NPC had their statblock specify their vice was "lust for beauty, not sex" (which implied Lust was about sex by default, which the virtue rules didn't specify). Some were vague and wishy-washy to the point of being incomprehensible. How does your PC "forge meaning from chaos" and on a sufficiently regular basis to justify picking that virtue?
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 26, 2023, 01:08:09 PM
Lust isn't sexual desire. God gave us sexual desire to fulfill one of our purposes (be fruitful and multiply). Rather it is in objectifying others, focusing on using them to fulfill your desires, rather than focusing on fulfilling the other's needs. Again, lust is not just sexual, but any time we treat people as tools to achieve our ends.
It is banal pop culture that has watered down the terms to be similar... but language evolves so perhaps the names of the deadly sins must as well; perhaps the sins of Hoarding, Waste and Objectification would make the distinctions more clear.
To me, the explanation of lust just illustrates BoxCrayonTales' point about the deadly sins being vague in execution. Not talking to one's Uber driver as a person is objectification, for example. However, it's super unclear to call that the Sin of Lust. That's not language drift - it's always been a lack of clarity.
To me, deadly sins vampires seem like a hook maybe for a set of seven vampire individuals as monsters of the week or a team -- but they don't feel like they have enough meat on them to be a large world faction or PC option. My impression of this thread is that it's a replacement for White Wolf's vampire games -- so the vampire types should be interesting as PCs. Or is this more general about how to make vampires as interesting villains for games? I just had a vampire as the main villain of my last two D&D games, so I'd be curious about the latter.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 26, 2023, 02:13:43 PM
Renaming them to more appropriate words makes sense... but then you run into the problem of losing the immediate identification with the seven deadly sins. But whatever.
As for the other three sins being redundant... well, the treatment I linked to added them in order to maintain the nine circles of Hell. Ditching Dante's lower levels for not fitting the seven deadly sins requires adding two more sins to meet the nine circle quota, and at that point a tenth circle/sin doesn't sound so odd. Over in the comments someone asks the author to explain the additional sins in more detail and he said this:
QuoteI think the additional three sins can be seen as derivatives of others, but the 10 Sin format fits the classic 9 Hells of D&D (Or 9 + Lucifer's Prison) much better than a 7 Sin format and I strongly believe that the Devils of D&D SHOULD be linked to the sins otherwise you miss a massive opportunity to give them more character and personality.
I mean the various Devils as they stand basically mean nothing. They are just monsters. By giving them a stronger identity linked to the sins we create far more interesting role-playing opportunities. So Demons are the corruption of the physical; whereas Devils are the corruption of the spiritual.
As regards various subsets (suicide under rage instead of despair) I was probably working from established lists I have found rather than thinking each through individually. HOWEVER, there is nothing to say there couldn't be a Rage Devil associated with Suicide AS WELL AS a Despair Devil associated with Suicide.
QuoteAs regards the other 3 sins 'standing out'. From a physical level that's easy since I already listed energy types, colours, animals and so forth.
On an environmental level:
– Sloth: Swamp or thick undergrowth that always seems to slow your progress to the destination that always seems on the horizon.
– Despair: Dismal 'blank' area devoid of colour (black and white) with sobbing or wailing noises in the background, voices whispering there is no hope.
– Discouragement: Battlements and Defenses sometimes arrayed in multiplicity (ie. a Castle on top of a Castle), Murder Holes everywhere. Voices telling you to turn back, go away, only death awaits here, you have no chance of victory.
Secondary effects could be:
– Sloth: Leading to Filth (setting it in opposition to Vanity) and thus also disease; possible connection to the Daemons.
– Despair: Leading to Suicide (setting it in opposition to Lust perhaps)
– Discouragement: Leading to Prison/Punishment. While the Hells are themselves a 'prison' of sorts, The discouragement sin must always be the most draconian and least compromising. Perhaps the most lawful of the Hells, setting it in opposition to Wrath which is potentially the least lawful.
You're aware that Dante's Inferno is a novel and not theological text right?
In your fantasy you can work whatever into it, but saying that it's in a novel doesn't prove the Christian theology wrong.
If I base my fantasy on Christian theology I don't have to change it to accommodate a novel or what some writer of a different fantasy did. Especially since he himself recognizes his shit is redundant.
Quote from: jhkim on April 26, 2023, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 26, 2023, 11:44:01 AM
Chronicles of Darkness 1e suffered from this in spades, especially since they didn't bother to provide concrete examples. Lust was explained as a vague "victimizing others to get what you want" without specifying sexuality, and one NPC had their statblock specify their vice was "lust for beauty, not sex" (which implied Lust was about sex by default, which the virtue rules didn't specify). Some were vague and wishy-washy to the point of being incomprehensible. How does your PC "forge meaning from chaos" and on a sufficiently regular basis to justify picking that virtue?
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 26, 2023, 01:08:09 PM
Lust isn't sexual desire. God gave us sexual desire to fulfill one of our purposes (be fruitful and multiply). Rather it is in objectifying others, focusing on using them to fulfill your desires, rather than focusing on fulfilling the other's needs. Again, lust is not just sexual, but any time we treat people as tools to achieve our ends.
It is banal pop culture that has watered down the terms to be similar... but language evolves so perhaps the names of the deadly sins must as well; perhaps the sins of Hoarding, Waste and Objectification would make the distinctions more clear.
To me, the explanation of lust just illustrates BoxCrayonTales' point about the deadly sins being vague in execution. Not talking to one's Uber driver as a person is objectification, for example. However, it's super unclear to call that the Sin of Lust. That's not language drift - it's always been a lack of clarity.
To me, deadly sins vampires seem like a hook maybe for a set of seven vampire individuals as monsters of the week or a team -- but they don't feel like they have enough meat on them to be a large world faction or PC option. My impression of this thread is that it's a replacement for White Wolf's vampire games -- so the vampire types should be interesting as PCs. Or is this more general about how to make vampires as interesting villains for games? I just had a vampire as the main villain of my last two D&D games, so I'd be curious about the latter.
Care to explain exactly how not talking to the Uber driver means I'm breaking my and his chastity?
You forget that for each of the seven deadly sins there's an opposing virtue. The sin is indulging in the opposite of said virtue.
In the case of Lust it's about extramarital sex, the constant desire and indulgence in the pleasures of sex for the sole purpose of the pleasure without consideration for anyone/anything else.
Lust, Gluttony and Avarice (Greed) are all about the excess. God gave us sexual desire in order to be fruitful and multiply not to engage in empty sex with anyone we fancy. Eating and drinking are things we need to do to survive, so just doing that isn't a sin either, but doing it in excess, being wasteful is. Greed is about the accumulation of possessions/wealth for the sake of it, without ever being satisfied by any amount.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2023, 02:34:22 PM
You're aware that Dante's Inferno is a novel and not theological text right?
In your fantasy you can work whatever into it, but saying that it's in a novel doesn't prove the Christian theology wrong.
If I base my fantasy on Christian theology I don't have to change it to accommodate a novel or what some writer of a different fantasy did. Especially since he himself recognizes his shit is redundant.
Also of note is that the 1st Circle is actually akin to the Greek Underworld... not a place of punishment, but a place to exist for all the souls of virtuous pagans who never knew God out of ignorance and conditions beyond their control. They didn't come to God through Christ so the theology of the time said they couldn't be in Heaven, but Dante didn't want them punished for something beyond their control so gave those figures the afterlife their cultures believed in. In more recent theological works its become more accepted that while we might be limited by the sacraments, God's mercy and power is not and so he could have saved the virtuous pagans at their death and thus they'd be Heaven and no 1st Circle would be needed.
The 9th and final Circle of Hell was added by Dante for expressly for Traitors, whom he considered the lowest of the low... with Judas and Brutus being gnawed on by Satan himself trapped in the ice for all eternity (which is also not theologically accurate, the official position is that Satan isn't bound in Hell, but is free to walk the Earth until the end of days when he will then be cast into Hell).
Removing the 1st not-Hell layer and the 9th layer for traitors gets you... Seven Layers for the Seven Deadly Sins.
Quote from: jhkim on April 26, 2023, 02:32:18 PM
To me, deadly sins vampires seem like a hook maybe for a set of seven vampire individuals as monsters of the week or a team -- but they don't feel like they have enough meat on them to be a large world faction or PC option. My impression of this thread is that it's a replacement for White Wolf's vampire games -- so the vampire types should be interesting as PCs. Or is this more general about how to make vampires as interesting villains for games? I just had a vampire as the main villain of my last two D&D games, so I'd be curious about the latter.
I thought it was about making vampires interesting as PCs. But that doesn't mean they can't struggle with evil, or be evil from start.
Feed's "Los Satanicos" setting is about playing evil b-movie vampires for whom their humanity is just a pragmatic cover for their villainous activities.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2023, 02:34:22 PM
You're aware that Dante's Inferno is a novel and not theological text right?
In your fantasy you can work whatever into it, but saying that it's in a novel doesn't prove the Christian theology wrong.
If I base my fantasy on Christian theology I don't have to change it to accommodate a novel or what some writer of a different fantasy did. Especially since he himself recognizes his shit is redundant.
I know, I was just using it as an example. Dante's nine circles of hell are structured oddly (https://landofnod.blog/2011/08/30/ruminations-on-the-netherworld/), since some circles are based on seven deadly sins while others are not. But Purgatory has seven terraces for the seven deadly sins. Whereas that ten circle structure I linked uses the seven deadly sins, plus three additional sins from less well-known theological studies.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2023, 02:45:29 PM
Care to explain exactly how not talking to the Uber driver means I'm breaking my and his chastity?
You forget that for each of the seven deadly sins there's an opposing virtue. The sin is indulging in the opposite of said virtue.
In the case of Lust it's about extramarital sex, the constant desire and indulgence in the pleasures of sex for the sole purpose of the pleasure without consideration for anyone/anything else.
Lust, Gluttony and Avarice (Greed) are all about the excess. God gave us sexual desire in order to be fruitful and multiply not to engage in empty sex with anyone we fancy. Eating and drinking are things we need to do to survive, so just doing that isn't a sin either, but doing it in excess, being wasteful is. Greed is about the accumulation of possessions/wealth for the sake of it, without ever being satisfied by any amount.
Yes, that's what the current understanding of those sins is. I was pointing out that trying to expand them runs into issues because they're essentially the same sin but aimed at different targets. Attempts to expand their meaning (or use archaic theological definitions) necessarily run into issues, as Chris succinctly summarized when he said the concepts he's describing need different names entirely to avoid confusion.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 26, 2023, 02:51:18 PM
Also of note is that the 1st Circle is actually akin to the Greek Underworld... not a place of punishment, but a place to exist for all the souls of virtuous pagans who never knew God out of ignorance and conditions beyond their control. They didn't come to God through Christ so the theology of the time said they couldn't be in Heaven, but Dante didn't want them punished for something beyond their control so gave those figures the afterlife their cultures believed in. In more recent theological works its become more accepted that while we might be limited by the sacraments, God's mercy and power is not and so he could have saved the virtuous pagans at their death and thus they'd be Heaven and no 1st Circle would be needed.
The 9th and final Circle of Hell was added by Dante for expressly for Traitors, whom he considered the lowest of the low... with Judas and Brutus being gnawed on by Satan himself trapped in the ice for all eternity (which is also not theologically accurate, the official position is that Satan isn't bound in Hell, but is free to walk the Earth until the end of days when he will then be cast into Hell).
Removing the 1st not-Hell layer and the 9th layer for traitors gets you... Seven Layers for the Seven Deadly Sins.
Actually, that gives us Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Wrath & Sloth (these are one layer in Inferno), Heresy, Violence, and Fraud.
Ultimately, like all theological and occult symbolism I find any structure of sins to be ultimately arbitrary regardless of what sins are picked. Lust, Gluttony and Greed are all manifestations of the same sin of Excess, just like Apathy, Despair and Doubt are all manifestations of Sloth, or Vanity and Arrogance and
all sins really are ultimately manifestations of Pride. At the end of the day, a sin is bad because it places your own petty selfish desires above the wellbeing of others
and yourself. I find any argument in favor of one structure over another to be ultimately arbitrary, because theology and occultism are not science.
Anyway, we're straying off topic here. Just go ahead and write your vampires based on the seven sins. It's your game. I'm distracting you and I apologize.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2023, 02:45:29 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 26, 2023, 02:32:18 PM
To me, the explanation of lust just illustrates BoxCrayonTales' point about the deadly sins being vague in execution. Not talking to one's Uber driver as a person is objectification, for example. However, it's super unclear to call that the Sin of Lust. That's not language drift - it's always been a lack of clarity.
Care to explain exactly how not talking to the Uber driver means I'm breaking my and his chastity?
You forget that for each of the seven deadly sins there's an opposing virtue. The sin is indulging in the opposite of said virtue.
In the case of Lust it's about extramarital sex, the constant desire and indulgence in the pleasures of sex for the sole purpose of the pleasure without consideration for anyone/anything else.
Lust, Gluttony and Avarice (Greed) are all about the excess. God gave us sexual desire in order to be fruitful and multiply not to engage in empty sex with anyone we fancy.
GeekyBugle - your definition of lust directly contradicts Chris24601's definition. As I quoted earlier, he explained:
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 26, 2023, 01:08:09 PM
Lust isn't sexual desire. God gave us sexual desire to fulfill one of our purposes (be fruitful and multiply). Rather it is in objectifying others, focusing on using them to fulfill your desires, rather than focusing on fulfilling the other's needs. Again, lust is not just sexual, but any time we treat people as tools to achieve our ends.
(emphasis mine) If you think this definition is wrong, then please take it up with him. I was criticizing it.
That said, nearly all modern Christians have rejected that sex is solely for procreation. In general, it is not seen as a sin for spouses to have sex for pleasure.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 26, 2023, 04:22:56 PM
Ultimately, like all theological and occult symbolism I find any structure of sins to be ultimately arbitrary regardless of what sins are picked. Lust, Gluttony and Greed are all manifestations of the same sin of Excess, just like Apathy, Despair and Doubt are all manifestations of Sloth, or Vanity and Arrogance and all sins really are ultimately manifestations of Pride. At the end of the day, a sin is bad because it places your own petty selfish desires above the wellbeing of others and yourself. I find any argument in favor of one structure over another to be ultimately arbitrary, because theology and occultism are not science.
Anyway, we're straying off topic here. Just go ahead and write your vampires based on the seven sins. It's your game. I'm distracting you and I apologize.
We're not really straying out of topic since it's relevant to the design.
Now, as for "At the end of the day, a sin is bad because it places your own petty selfish desires above the wellbeing of others
and yourself." This isn't so regarding the seven deadly sins, those are a sin because they harm your immortal soul not because you hurt others by indulging in them. Except in Islam, THEIR deadly sins are sins BECAUSE they hurt the Uma.
Also relevant if you plan on including Islam (or a similar religion) in your setting.
IMHO the Sin based vampires might work on a totally-not-VtM RPG but maybe not on other types of Urban Fantasy, but they fit just fine in a monster hunting RPG as variations on the classic Vlad Teppes vampire.
For the latter I would still include Vampires from other parts of the world, a Vampire that laughs at the Cross and Holy Water? Talk about your players being terrified the first time they face it. (which is also the motivation behind me trying to have different zombies)
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 26, 2023, 10:51:46 AM
Vampires embodying the sin of Pride see their physical and mental attributes greatly heightened to beyond mortal levels. Their weakness is they lose these abilities or even find their baseline abilities hindered in the daytime (i.e. their pride is only justified in the dark of night... in the harsh light of day they're nothing special). Their bloodline founders swear fealty to Satan himself, the great dragon, and so I would label this type the Dracul (Vlad Tepes being the archetypal 'Dracula').
Excellent. What if you did something with mirrors? Either no reflection, since God has cursed them to never see the one thing they want to see the most, or Hideous reflection, where the mirror it reveals all of their inner ugliness (e.g. Dorian Gray)
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 26, 2023, 10:51:46 AM
The sin of Wrath brings out feral impulses that allow the vampire to take on animal-like traits and command savage beasts. Their weakness is an underlying rage that grows with their embrace of sin.
Nice.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 26, 2023, 10:51:46 AM
The sin of Lust grants a vampire powers of emotional manipulation and inhuman beauty with the weakness of being a growing emotional deadness (outside of rage if they have gained the sin of wrath) outside of sheer depravity as the pleasures of the flesh become too mundane to stimulate them.
Excellent.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 26, 2023, 10:51:46 AM
The sin of Greed grants a vampire telekinetic control over objects (all material goods belong to them) and an insatiable hunger to possess and flaunt material goods.
Hmm, not sold on this one.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 26, 2023, 10:51:46 AM
As mentioned, the sin of Envy produces a vampire who doesn't just take your life when they feed, they can take your LIFE by adopting the form and stealing the memories of those they feed upon. Their weakness though is obsession and stalker-ish behavior towards those they envy.
I love the doppleganger aspect. Ever see a movie from the 90's called Single White Female?
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 26, 2023, 10:51:46 AM
The sin of Gluttony allows the vampire to consume anything related to life and take on aspects of what they consume (you are what you eat). They are cursed with insatiable hunger far beyond that of normal vampires.
It works, but it seems a bit unfinished, not sure why.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 26, 2023, 10:51:46 AM
The sin of Sloth grants a vampire both incredible resilience (resistance to change) and command over dreams and sleep (at high levels they can even feed on victims through their dreams), but suffer from lethargy in daytime that at higher levels is practically indistinguishable from death.
Probably my favorite of the bunch.
---
It's a great start. I'm getting an In Nomine vibe from the whole thing, which kinda makes sense. The themes are solid, but the powers and weaknesses need some fine tuning and balancing against each other. For example, the Pride guy and Sloth guy aren't going to want to go out in daytime, and if the rest of the party agrees, they've essentially negated their weakness.
Advancement Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 24, 2023, 09:28:03 AM
I don't want to put in a strict correlation between level and in-character age. I feel that can be too restrictive and nonsensical. If the campaign starts in contemporary times and don't move very far into the future, then the PCs achieving high levels would break any attempt at correspondence between level and in-character age. If there's no strict correlation, then a starting PC could have a backstory as a centuries old vampire but still be level 1 for whatever reason (injury, laziness, luck, etc).
You're right, it's not going to work. Unless every campaign starts in 500 BC (or whenever) and hops forward in time. Not what I had in mind. I wanted vampires to grow in power as they age, but it can't work with PCs growing in power as they do stuff.
Vampires as MonstersQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 24, 2023, 09:28:03 AM
I do think cannibals can work purely as antagonists. I have this idea where some vampires just lose interest in being part of any society and turn into pure nightmare monsters that live on the periphery of civilization and eat any unfortunate mortals or vampires they happen across. This isn't like VTM's feral beast degeneration thing, these nightmare monsters can still possess the same intellect they had in life they just don't value temporal power or social interaction anymore. Some can be packs of feral beasts by an alpha, if desired.
I have something like this in mind as well, where vampires can degenerate and become dark reflections of their class. Although I hate the Sabbat, this is my take on the clan/antitribbu concept. It also owes a lot to Conspiracy X, where the traditional monsters of myth were actually magic-users who became corrupt and morphed into something non-human. One point of difference between your concept and mine is that I intend for these guys to be the badguys of the setting, so (some of them) are very much into temporal power.
Other Magical Creatures Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 24, 2023, 09:28:03 AM
If other magical creatures exist, then they're limited to NPCs or are integrated into the rules as PC options who freely fraternize with the others Nightlife style. But the latter would require (re)designing the setting and rules from a new/different starting point.
The WOD mashups of the 90's were a dumpster fire. I've never read Nightlife, but we played the Dresden Files RPG once. It worked, but it would have worked better if the players were mortals investigating supernatural threats, rather than 6 different monster splats all working together for some very contrived reason. And that's what I fear the game will turn into. "Oh no, we're fighting the evil thing that is more evil than us, which will destroy the world unless we all work together...
for the fourth time?"
But perhaps the inclusion of other creatures in the setting is inevitable. I just don't want to think about it right now.
Your Bloodlines Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 24, 2023, 09:28:03 AM
For example, instead of having multiple classes with variants of the lord shtick, you have a single archetypal Vampire Lord class and then different subclasses (or races?) for different bloodlines.
That's the approach I want to take with my classes. I want broad-based archetypes that are culturally and historically agnostic, so you can make a magic-using vampire that isn't beholden to a hermetic order from Vienna that was founded in the Middle Ages. It's why I want to stay away from the Gurps Blood Types approach.
I'll just throw it out there that my favorite depiction of vampires comes from the Dresden Files. There's the red, white, and black courts, each with a different set of abilities. Plus whatever the heck the boss monster vampire from the last book was; he doesn't seem to entirely fit any of the known types. There's a lot of detailed description of what they can and can't do. There's social structure, politics, and history. In short, enough depth, breadth, and consistency to make them interesting. If I were to make my own vampire game I might just file off the serial numbers and go with that.
Quote from: Aglondir on April 27, 2023, 12:24:10 AM
Vampires as Monsters
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 24, 2023, 09:28:03 AM
I do think cannibals can work purely as antagonists. I have this idea where some vampires just lose interest in being part of any society and turn into pure nightmare monsters that live on the periphery of civilization and eat any unfortunate mortals or vampires they happen across. This isn't like VTM's feral beast degeneration thing, these nightmare monsters can still possess the same intellect they had in life they just don't value temporal power or social interaction anymore. Some can be packs of feral beasts by an alpha, if desired.
I have something like this in mind as well, where vampires can degenerate and become dark reflections of their class. Although I hate the Sabbat, this is my take on the clan/antitribbu concept. It also owes a lot to Conspiracy X, where the traditional monsters of myth were actually magic-users who became corrupt and morphed into something non-human. One point of difference between your concept and mine is that I intend for these guys to be the badguys of the setting, so (some of them) are very much into temporal power.
Nephilim does the same as
Conspiracy X. The PCs are half-human and half-elemental, and there's a risk of the elemental side taking over and turning the PC into an elemental beast. One mostly antagonist splat (I say mostly because they're supposed to be the corrupt version of a much more philosophical precursor) studies this phenomenon and learns to control and exploit it.
Yeah, I don't really like the sabbath either. In
Nightlife there's a similar secret society called the Complex but they prefer to live in secret within human society and secretly work to create a work where they can enslave humanity and rule openly, but they're not sure whether this is even feasible so they keep their options open. They don't see humans as people, but they're not stupid or rabid. Unfortunately, the RAW don't actually make them tenable: they'd suffer from all their weakness at maximum and have no downsides to using their powers (powers cost humanity in these rules), when the rules assume these are problems for the PCs. I think
Feed's "Los Satanicos" implements this concept far more elegantly, and I've even done a conversion of
Nightlife to those rules.
QuoteOther Magical Creatures
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 24, 2023, 09:28:03 AM
If other magical creatures exist, then they're limited to NPCs or are integrated into the rules as PC options who freely fraternize with the others Nightlife style. But the latter would require (re)designing the setting and rules from a new/different starting point.
The WOD mashups of the 90's were a dumpster fire. I've never read Nightlife, but we played the Dresden Files RPG once. It worked, but it would have worked better if the players were mortals investigating supernatural threats, rather than 6 different monster splats all working together for some very contrived reason. And that's what I fear the game will turn into. "Oh no, we're fighting the evil thing that is more evil than us, which will destroy the world unless we all work together... for the fourth time?"
But perhaps the inclusion of other creatures in the setting is inevitable. I just don't want to think about it right now.
Ok, you should try to familiarize yourself with the premise of
Nightlife because it works nothing like what you think. It works because the different "kin" races (they call themselves Kin, one year before Mark Rein-Hagen) share a single overarching society and don't segregate themselves. So it avoids the contrived reasons for working together because they rub shoulders as a matter of course. They're not high school cliques that arbitrarily segregate themselves for shallow reasons. Mixed parties are the norm.
QuoteYour Bloodlines
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 24, 2023, 09:28:03 AM
For example, instead of having multiple classes with variants of the lord shtick, you have a single archetypal Vampire Lord class and then different subclasses (or races?) for different bloodlines.
That's the approach I want to take with my classes. I want broad-based archetypes that are culturally and historically agnostic, so you can make a magic-using vampire that isn't beholden to a hermetic order from Vienna that was founded in the Middle Ages. It's why I want to stay away from the Gurps Blood Types approach.
Ok. Anyway, to go back to the vampire lord concept I was floating...
Giving them mind control is a no brainer, but I was also interested in fleshing out the lord concept further and introducing further powers that aren't just mind control or generic vampire powers. For example, over on someone's homebrew (https://www.rpgcrossing.com/showthread.php?t=157338) they came up with basically a minion master thing. The lord can make magical oaths, augment minions, limited prescience to know who they can trust, that sort of thing. I think devising powers like that would be good to flesh out the concept beyond the traditional stereotypes. Another example is that, in Vampyre Hack, its lord class is the only one that starts out with the powers to turn vampires or empower familiars for free while others have to learn it at cost.
Quote from: Mishihari on April 27, 2023, 01:52:34 AM
I'll just throw it out there that my favorite depiction of vampires comes from the Dresden Files. There's the red, white, and black courts, each with a different set of abilities. Plus whatever the heck the boss monster vampire from the last book was; he doesn't seem to entirely fit any of the known types. There's a lot of detailed description of what they can and can't do. There's social structure, politics, and history. In short, enough depth, breadth, and consistency to make them interesting. If I were to make my own vampire game I might just file off the serial numbers and go with that.
Oh right! I forgot about that. It does something similar for werewolves, which makes it a very unique setting.
I'm reading the Vampyre Hack blog's article on the design process behind the Zoltan. BTW, it shares its name with a ridiculous vampire dog b-movie and I cannot forget that. Anyway, the writer tries to do better with the concept as you can probably imagine. I noticed a huge gaping hole though: he doesn't know that it's originally a rip-off of the Wamphyri from Necroscope. I read the first five books years ago and it's somewhat different from Rein-Hagen's ripoff.
The Wamphyri are themselves shapeshifters, but their abilities in this regard are fairly limited. They can fly by flattening themselves, or grow moderately sized claws and fangs (they eat human flesh btw), but that's about it. However, on longer time scales they can dramatically mutate physically. The oldest one had turned into a hideous walking leech, while another trapped in a pit in Sicily had mutated over the centuries into a gigantic mass of flesh by consuming victims thrown in by its jailors, and one lord named "Vasagi the Suck" had removed his jaw and turned his mouth into a siphon. If they have an alchemical laboratory, then they can direct this process using vampirism-infected thralls as raw materials. On their homeplanet (they're aliens btw) they lived in castles that were composed of the mummified remains of victims they'd used as building materials. This is a universe where your soul remains conscious inside your corpse after death, so the entire castle doubles as a haunted necropolis ossuary thing. In one scene the main character, who is a medium, asks for directions from the dead people used to make a staircase. Meanwhile, still living victims are used to create reservoirs, heaters, air conditioners, indoor plumbing like sinks and toilets, etc. As well as living airplanes and "warrior creatures". You can see examples in the official art gallery: https://www.brianlumley.com/media/artists/paul/paul.html
Although the Wamphyri aren't classically undead (they're called "undead" in the books, but they still have all bodily functions and can reproduce sexually), they're incredibly durable. They can regenerate from anything short of destroying their body. They're human beings whose entire body is infected with parasitic superpowered hematophagous psychic fungus that will attempt to survive anyway it can, so you need to kill the fungus rather than the host. In one book, wamphyri are encountered frozen solid inside a glacier, still alive and capable of holding telepathic conversations, although their metabolism is slowed to the point they're able to survive a really long time without sustenance.
There are different forms of infection, with the overall progression ranging from "human thrall with bits of vampiric proto-flesh attached to their brain" to "hideous walking leech." The mature form of the infection, which what most of the villains reached, is a mostly human form with a giant tentacled leech wrapped around the spine and major organs. The leech is purely instinctive, but influences it host to give it the blood it hungers for by making the host constantly high. If the host is sufficiently incapacitated or locked in a room to starve, then the leech will evacuate their body. This isn't a cure as the host is still infected by its cells and will commit suicide without the constant high provided by the leech.
There was actually a Necroscope RPG in the 90s from West End Games, although now long out of print. Some kind of byzantine legal dispute prevents it from being republished by the current owners of the West End Games IP inventory. It can be summarized as Night's Black Agents meets I Psi. It had a Wamphyri book, which included a section written in-character from the perspective of an E-Branch agent who had been infected by a leech egg. His life turned into a psychological body horror movie.
I find this more prolonged deterioration of humanity more effective horror than something like The Strain, where the horror comes from being enslaved and losing your soul rather than becoming a villain who enjoys eating people because your constantly high. Unfortunately, the actual novels don't really do this sort of thing to any of the characters. E-Branch agents who are infected die in short order without exploring their psychological transformation and two of the heroes get infected but are Gary Stus who can easily resist the leech's temptation. West End Games gave us the best fiction but it's questionably canon and locked behind copyright orphan status.
Anyhow, I've got some ideas for lineage and class concepts. I like Aglondir's ideas for classes: ruler, warrior, hunter, deceiver, outcast, sorcerer, and necromancer. I'm not reinventing the wheel for the moment. But these are just roles: They're not necessarily associated with particular cliques or lineages.
With lineages I wanted to do something that's loosely approximated by race in fantasy. A character may be any mix of lineage and class, with each lineage having their own takes on the classes.
I'll use a lineage I call "Carpathians" as an example:
Carpathian Ruler: classic Vlad Dracul types. Feudal lords.
Carpathian Warrior: Vlad Dracul, but emphasis on combat training. Feudal vassals.
Carpathian Hunter: the classic shapeshifter, assuming the forms of nocturnal mammals like wolves, rats, and bats.
Carpathian Deceiver: the brides.
Carpathian Outcast: academy award winner for vampire makeup effects
Carpathian Sorcerer or Necromancer: I ran out of ideas
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 29, 2023, 12:01:27 PM
Anyhow, I've got some ideas for lineage and class concepts. I like Aglondir's ideas for classes: ruler, warrior, hunter, deceiver, outcast, sorcerer, and necromancer. I'm not reinventing the wheel for the moment. But these are just roles: They're not necessarily associated with particular cliques or lineages.
With lineages I wanted to do something that's loosely approximated by race in fantasy. A character may be any mix of lineage and class, with each lineage having their own takes on the classes.
I'll use a lineage I call "Carpathians" as an example:
Carpathian Ruler: classic Vlad Dracul types. Feudal lords.
Carpathian Warrior: Vlad Dracul, but emphasis on combat training. Feudal vassals.
Carpathian Hunter: the classic shapeshifter, assuming the forms of nocturnal mammals like wolves, rats, and bats.
Carpathian Deceiver: the brides.
Carpathian Outcast: academy award winner for vampire makeup effects
Carpathian Sorcerer or Necromancer: I ran out of ideas
Not sure class+level is the way to go. Probably too limiting. My first idea was to do a VTM heartbreaker, using a modified B/X chassis sort of like what Kevin Crawford does for his Sine Nomine games.
But then it started to morph into my own vampire universe, with noble houses scheming for dominance. The classes became roles within the house: Leader, Warrior, Scout, and Mystic. The nosferatu-equivalent became the enemies, lurking in vast subterranean lairs created from abandoned subway tunnels and sewers. Next, I added in hellgates to other dark dimensions, so I could explain where the monsters were coming from. There were demons, but they were too "big" to come through the hellgates, so they had to act through minions.
I had the traditional vampire powers, which you could use with no concern. But sorcery, the real powerful stuff, was dangerous since it tapped into the dark dimensions for power. This causes the gates to expand, risking the chance that a demon will break through. I wanted to avoid the classic D&D spell list, but make thematic spells based on the powers of blood, shadows, dreams, and death. Seems like I need a fifth one...
Then I started to think of the progenitor, transmission, history, society, laws, etc. and wondered if I was just reinventing VTM. So I took a break, which is where I'm at now.
I'd recommend you stick with your 3 Hogwarts categories (passion, ambition, secrecy) and match that schema up with some of your bloodlines, since it's more original than my work.
Ok. Then I guess the traditional fighter, mage and thief trio could work. Or whatever the modern equivalent would be.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 01, 2023, 09:25:39 PM
Ok. Then I guess the traditional fighter, mage and thief trio could work. Or whatever the modern equivalent would be.
Adept, Expert, Warrior. That's from True 20, and much like what Kevin Crawford uses in his X Without Number games.
Or you could just use your bloodlines, and start buying skills and powers with character points.
My favorite 7 of your bloodlines, with comments. All of them have potential. Some of them I excluded because they have an origin story connected to a dark diety, and that's covered by the Apophians. For a setup like this, it's better to have a variety of origin stories to set the bloodlines apart. But in the end, my choices were arbitrary and represent my own preferences. You can easily swap the Followers of Ahriman for the Followers of Apophis, for example. Or choose the Banshee instead of the Raksasha.
QuoteApophians are an Ancient Egyptian cult that venerate the demon Apophis as their founder. They style themselves enemies of cosmic order and devote their existences towards criminal enterprises that exploit and subtly undermine civilization.
WW's Setites were one of my favorite clans, due the ancient Egypt aspect. Set, per se, not so much.
QuoteCarpathians are indigenous to the Carpathian Mountains; indeed, they must sleep in contact with the mountains' soil. They exhibit a natural talent for stereotypical vampiric powers like hypnotizing their victims and commanding (and turning into) nocturnal animals. A minority demonstrate an aptitude with an ancient (and disturbing) Slavic sorcery whose practices include elementalism, necromancy, and biomancy.
Perfect. I assume this is Dracula's bloodline, correct?
QuoteDisciples of the Necromantion are an Ancient Greek cult that dedicate themselves to studying magic, particularly necromancy. They venerate Hellenic and ancient Near East chthonic deities like Hades, Persephone, Hecate, and Ereshkigal, but members of the bloodline claim no particular descent.
Love the the blending of the Greek with the Near East. Weren't there some pre-Christian Greek mystery cults that focused on immortality, influenced by eastern mystery cults? But you need a better name.
QuoteHouse of Magnus claims descent from the medieval wizard Magnus the Great, who became a vampire by stealing the dark gift with alchemy. As such, the magnates are despised and distrusted by other vampires of respectable bloodlines.
A bloodline of medeival hermetic sorcerers is required. But again, need a better name. House of Anything sounds a lot like House Tremere.
QuoteMerovingians are a bloodline of vampires that claim descent from the historical Merovingian dynasty. Not only that, but members of the secret society the Priory of Sion claim that they are further descended from Jesus Christ. Merovingian vampires exhibit a talent for powers of mind control.
Excellent. But I'd switch "Jesus was a vampire" to one of the Merovigian saints was a vampire. Here's some interesting info from the Wikipedia article: "Many Merovingian saints, and the majority of female saints, were local ones, venerated only within strictly circumscribed regions; their cults were revived in the High Middle Ages, when the population of women in religious orders increased enormously."
QuoteStrigoi claim descent from the pre-Christian Slavic deity Chernobog. All members of this bloodline are cursed with a malaise of the visage, ranging from overt physical mutation, decay and rigor mortis to less obvious tells like a malign odor or an eerie presence. They exhibit affinities with vermin, disease, nightmares, mutation, and necromancy.
A WW Nosferatu equivalent is a must, and this is more interesting.
QuoteRakshasas are Indian vampires that claim descent from the demon king Ravana. They are masters of dark magic, mental manipulation, and illusions.
Included for pure Monster Manual pipe-smoking catman nostalgia.
Quote from: Aglondir on May 01, 2023, 11:15:38 PM
My favorite 7 of your bloodlines, with comments. All of them have potential. Some of them I excluded because they have an origin story connected to a dark diety, and that's covered by the Apophians. For a setup like this, it's better to have a variety of origin stories to set the bloodlines apart. But in the end, my choices were arbitrary and represent my own preferences. You can easily swap the Followers of Ahriman for the Followers of Apophis, for example. Or choose the Banshee instead of the Raksasha.
Ok. For reference, I have a longer brainstorming doc here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRXShVnJvKRhqFBMhqtBGA2j_AYDVKGXPqAsenH26MGPGdrY8phdsGEfsTtJklKT4ZUabvqZ3w5x7xU/pub
QuoteQuoteApophians are an Ancient Egyptian cult that venerate the demon Apophis as their founder. They style themselves enemies of cosmic order and devote their existences towards criminal enterprises that exploit and subtly undermine civilization.
WW's Setites were one of my favorite clans, due the ancient Egypt aspect. Set, per se, not so much.
In my longer notes doc I gave more backstory to the evil cults and suggested they're actually descended from the same demon/antigod because they share many powers in common. The differences between them are mainly cultural and modus operandi: one focuses on subverting civilization from the bottom-up through criminal syndicates, the other focuses on subverting civilization from the top-down through manipulating social institutions and the media.
There's a novel I remember where the name "Second Sons of Apophis" was used. It had this origin myth where, after the Exodus, the priests who'd lost their firstborns adopted the worship of Apophis in vengeance and taught this to their second born sons. In modern times, they've adopted the practice of sacrificing Christian firstborn sons to Apophis. I'd like to use that. Even in-universe tho, I'd have characters speculate on whether it has any basis in fact due to the lack of evidence for the Exodus. One Sethian who was alive during the Hyksos dynasty and Akhenaton's reformation speculates that it might come from a distorted account of the priesthood's conflicts with that dynasty (which he claims were masterminded by the cult of Apophis to discredit the cult of Seth) and the Second Sons cult was actually founded by post-Christian Satanists who incorporated bits of Apophis worship they found without actually knowing the true history.
QuoteQuoteCarpathians are indigenous to the Carpathian Mountains; indeed, they must sleep in contact with the mountains' soil. They exhibit a natural talent for stereotypical vampiric powers like hypnotizing their victims and commanding (and turning into) nocturnal animals. A minority demonstrate an aptitude with an ancient (and disturbing) Slavic sorcery whose practices include elementalism, necromancy, and biomancy.
Perfect. I assume this is Dracula's bloodline, correct?
Yes. These are the classic gothic vampires. The reference to magic is made in case anybody wants to bring in
Necroscope or Elizabeth Bathory stuff.
One idea I've considered is, rather than the stereotypical pagan or Satanic themes, they'd have adopted Christianity and reflavored their practices as miracles granted by God, the Angels and the Saints.
QuoteQuoteDisciples of the Necromantion are an Ancient Greek cult that dedicate themselves to studying magic, particularly necromancy. They venerate Hellenic and ancient Near East chthonic deities like Hades, Persephone, Hecate, and Ereshkigal, but members of the bloodline claim no particular descent.
Love the the blending of the Greek with the Near East. Weren't there some pre-Christian Greek mystery cults that focused on immortality, influenced by eastern mystery cults? But you need a better name.
The Necromantion was an ancient Greek temple of necromancy. I thought it was appropriate, and I enjoy the cross-language wordplay: it's pronounced like "necro mansion". It's also a reference to an old fansite that went offline years ago.
But I leave room for every group to have multiple names. You could name this Twilight Order, Golgothans, whatever.
QuoteQuoteHouse of Magnus claims descent from the medieval wizard Magnus the Great, who became a vampire by stealing the dark gift with alchemy. As such, the magnates are despised and distrusted by other vampires of respectable bloodlines.
A bloodline of medeival hermetic sorcerers is required. But again, need a better name. House of Anything sounds a lot like House Tremere.
It's a reference to Anne Rice's Magnus. His backstory is that he became a vampire by stealing the dark gift with magic. In my longer brainstorming doc I go into more detail in how they differ from other vampires. They need every pledge to perform a magic ritual to become a vampire. They don't have fangs but instead use magic to drain life.
They're not the only vampires who used magic to become vampires. I have a few others in my brainstorming.
QuoteQuoteMerovingians are a bloodline of vampires that claim descent from the historical Merovingian dynasty. Not only that, but members of the secret society the Priory of Sion claim that they are further descended from Jesus Christ. Merovingian vampires exhibit a talent for powers of mind control.
Excellent. But I'd switch "Jesus was a vampire" to one of the Merovigian saints was a vampire. Here's some interesting info from the Wikipedia article: "Many Merovingian saints, and the majority of female saints, were local ones, venerated only within strictly circumscribed regions; their cults were revived in the High Middle Ages, when the population of women in religious orders increased enormously."
Huh, I didn't know that before. I need to do more research.
QuoteQuoteStrigoi claim descent from the pre-Christian Slavic deity Chernobog. All members of this bloodline are cursed with a malaise of the visage, ranging from overt physical mutation, decay and rigor mortis to less obvious tells like a malign odor or an eerie presence. They exhibit affinities with vermin, disease, nightmares, mutation, and necromancy.
A WW Nosferatu equivalent is a must, and this is more interesting.
I decided to give them a theme based on around fear itself and the various things humans fear: death, disease, etc. This provides ready inspiration for developing them further. Maybe they have a magic system that lets them create their own pocket nightmare world that they can pull things out of, or pull people into? Etc.
QuoteQuoteRakshasas are Indian vampires that claim descent from the demon king Ravana. They are masters of dark magic, mental manipulation, and illusions.
Included for pure Monster Manual pipe-smoking catman nostalgia.
They can also cover Japanese Oni and the like. They're similar to the previous in that they're fear-themed, but focused on physical violence and manipulation rather than lingering decay.
I have a bunch more ideas in my brainstorming doc, including things like spider-themed vampires (I've also made these into a non-vampiric shapeshifter splat), vampiric drug lords that need to drink drugged blood but get access to higher consciousness, creepy child vampires that assert and defend themselves with powerful mind control, etc.
About names: Might be a pet peeve here, but I hate the "X of Y" naming convention that WW started midway through the line. Daughters of Cacaphony, Followers of Set, Serpents of Light, Harbringers of Skulls... WTF is a harbringer of a skull? So I like "The Necromantion" but not "Disciples of.." in front.
I'll take a look at your longer document. I think I skimmed it before, since I remember the Lolitas. But In general, you have too many good ideas-- you need to select the best, revise, and refine-- instead of going deeper. Focus on what will make each of these attractive to a player. For example, when I read the Magnus bloodline I think "Sorcerer who uses magic to feed, rather than fangs" and that sounds awesome. Same with the Strigoi.
Another approach could be to do a grid with columns for bloodline, orogin story, powers, and weakness. Not for players, but just to organize your thoughts.
A lot of secret societies have names like that. Temple of Set, Brotherhood of Saturn, Hermetic Order of the Blue Rose, etc. Although they usually make more sense than the word salad titles WW often came up with, yeah.
Sorry this might be a silly questions and may or may not have been discussed and I missed it.
Do the vampires remember their past? Is the person still in there from before they were bit or did they die when they were bit and a monster took their place in the body?
Quote from: GhostNinja on May 03, 2023, 09:46:28 AM
Sorry this might be a silly questions and may or may not have been discussed and I missed it.
Do the vampires remember their past? Is the person still in there from before they were bit or did they die when they were bit and a monster took their place in the body?
Good question!
That varies by setting. Most fiction I'm aware of has them remember their human life, even if their conscience is gone and a demon has taken up residence. In the
Sonja Blue books vampires suffer brain damage that results in them having little memory of their former life, no conscience and limited intelligence. In the ABYSS ttrpg (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/317710/ABYSS--Action-Horror-RolePlay), vampires have no memory of their human life and any promises of immortality to prospective recruits are empty.
In most ttrpg settings the playable vampires having once been human is just a formality to justify the power fantasy, like isekai. They could have been born a vampire, or have no memory of their human lives, and it wouldn't make any meaningful change to these settings. I consider this a weakness of the writing. Most fiction that even has vampires not being ex-human in the first place is paranormal romance where the dynamics are akin to an interracial superhero romance. Christine Feehan's
Dark Prince series being a prolific example.
In my settings I was gonna have it vary according to what themes I wanted to explore. Maybe offer players a choice of origins: "memories of human life," "forgot what it was like to be human," "no memories of humanity," "was never human," etc.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 03, 2023, 10:18:20 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on May 03, 2023, 09:46:28 AM
Sorry this might be a silly questions and may or may not have been discussed and I missed it.
Do the vampires remember their past? Is the person still in there from before they were bit or did they die when they were bit and a monster took their place in the body?
Good question!
That varies by setting. Most fiction I'm aware of has them remember their human life, even if their conscience is gone and a demon has taken up residence. In the Sonja Blue books vampires suffer brain damage that results in them having little memory of their former life, no conscience and limited intelligence. In the ABYSS ttrpg (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/317710/ABYSS--Action-Horror-RolePlay), vampires have no memory of their human life and any promises of immortality to prospective recruits are empty.
In most ttrpg settings the playable vampires having once been human is just a formality to justify the power fantasy, like isekai. They could have been born a vampire, or have no memory of their human lives, and it wouldn't make any meaningful change to these settings. I consider this a weakness of the writing. Most fiction that even has vampires not being ex-human in the first place is paranormal romance where the dynamics are akin to an interracial superhero romance. Christine Feehan's Dark Prince series being a prolific example.
In my settings I was gonna have it vary according to what themes I wanted to explore. Maybe offer players a choice of origins: "memories of human life," "forgot what it was like to be human," "no memories of humanity," "was never human," etc.
Good points. The only vampire game I have ever played is Vampire the Masquerade. As far as I could tell my character remembered his previous life but didn't have a conscious anymore.
Anyway, how do you answer the question of "what do characters actually do?" If you were writing adventures, then what kinds of adventures would you write?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 05, 2023, 09:05:22 AM
Anyway, how do you answer the question of "what do characters actually do?" If you were writing adventures, then what kinds of adventures would you write?
Well, I've given my answer before in some other threads, but I feel like the zeitgeist of playing the 'misunderstood' monster has long since past.
As such my Urban Fantasy concept (into which my demon-pacted vampires fit) would be...
with stake and sword, cross and flame,
we roam the blighted land,
for now we are the hunters...
HUNTERS OF THE DAMNED
Player concepts would be warriors (cops, soldiers, survivors), priests/exorcists, scientists/scholars, blessed (those gifted with divine charisms) and children of the damned (dhampirs, cambions, etc.).
The adventures would be dealing with all the many powers of Hell who threaten the world; vampires, demons, werewolves, witches, malevolent ghosts, etc.
Neat. Monster hunters is something I have a dedicated doc for. There's freelancers, organizations, repentant monsters who hunt monsters, immoral organizations that hunt magic to harvest and exploit it, etc.
But I preferred to ditch the "misunderstood" bit and acknowledge that monsters are monsters. And make fun of it. Like Brian Mitsoda and What We Do In The Shadows.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 07, 2023, 08:53:54 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 05, 2023, 09:05:22 AM
Anyway, how do you answer the question of "what do characters actually do?" If you were writing adventures, then what kinds of adventures would you write?
Well, I've given my answer before in some other threads, but I feel like the zeitgeist of playing the 'misunderstood' monster has long since past.
As such my Urban Fantasy concept (into which my demon-pacted vampires fit) would be...
with stake and sword, cross and flame,
we roam the blighted land,
for now we are the hunters...
HUNTERS OF THE DAMNED
Player concepts would be warriors (cops, soldiers, survivors), priests/exorcists, scientists/scholars, blessed (those gifted with divine charisms) and children of the damned (dhampirs, cambions, etc.).
The adventures would be dealing with all the many powers of Hell who threaten the world; vampires, demons, werewolves, witches, malevolent ghosts, etc.
I see your Hunters of the Damned and rise you my Night Stalkers:
In this game there are no sparkly or angst ridden monsters, the monsters are supernatural predators and only you stand between these creatures and the unknowing masses.
Welcome to Night Stalkers, the Supernatural exterminator team of Bureau 51.
Monsters exist, they are the apex predators of this unsuspecting world. Vampires, Werewolves, Phaeric beings and other things that go bump in the night and prey on the weak.
In Night Stalkers you play the role of one of the few that are aware of the supernatural menace that lies beyond the light.
You have been recruited by a shadow agency that exists beyond governments and organized religion, you can't trust any politician, religious leader, journalist (maybe with the exception of the ones working for tabloids like Weekly Weird World News –and half of them are just con-men publishing whatever will give them the most clicks–), law enforcement or celebrity.
Night Stalkers. Walking the edge between an unsuspecting humanity and the creatures that walk among us.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 07, 2023, 08:53:54 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 05, 2023, 09:05:22 AM
Anyway, how do you answer the question of "what do characters actually do?" If you were writing adventures, then what kinds of adventures would you write?
Well, I've given my answer before in some other threads, but I feel like the zeitgeist of playing the 'misunderstood' monster has long since past.
As such my Urban Fantasy concept (into which my demon-pacted vampires fit) would be...
with stake and sword, cross and flame,
we roam the blighted land,
for now we are the hunters...
HUNTERS OF THE DAMNED
Player concepts would be warriors (cops, soldiers, survivors), priests/exorcists, scientists/scholars, blessed (those gifted with divine charisms) and children of the damned (dhampirs, cambions, etc.).
The adventures would be dealing with all the many powers of Hell who threaten the world; vampires, demons, werewolves, witches, malevolent ghosts, etc.
I like it, but it's more of an urban fantasy RPG than a vampire RPG. It reminds me of the Witchcraft RPG (1999.) I'd love to see that get a 25-year anniversary update, much like the "20" lines of the White Wolf games.
I wonder if the drift into UF is inevitable. Once you introduce Creature X as an antagonist, someone will want to play one. Or Creature Y.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 07, 2023, 01:22:19 PM
I see your Hunters of the Damned and rise you my Night Stalkers:
In this game there are no sparkly or angst ridden monsters, the monsters are supernatural predators and only you stand between these creatures and the unknowing masses.
Welcome to Night Stalkers, the Supernatural exterminator team of Bureau 51.
Monsters exist, they are the apex predators of this unsuspecting world. Vampires, Werewolves, Phaeric beings and other things that go bump in the night and prey on the weak.
In Night Stalkers you play the role of one of the few that are aware of the supernatural menace that lies beyond the light.
You have been recruited by a shadow agency that exists beyond governments and organized religion, you can't trust any politician, religious leader, journalist (maybe with the exception of the ones working for tabloids like Weekly Weird World News –and half of them are just con-men publishing whatever will give them the most clicks–), law enforcement or celebrity.
Night Stalkers. Walking the edge between an unsuspecting humanity and the creatures that walk among us.
Are you a human fighting monsters, or a monster fighting monsters? What is the supernatural menace? Is it other monsters, or something worse?
The strong point here is all of the characters work for the same Agency, which explains why they work together rather than squabble or fight each other. Also, you can have mission-based adventures, which solves the "What do the players do?" question.
There are many games out there with this theme. The latest one I read was Monte Cook's World of Darkness. It's not what you think. The premise is very different than the classic WOD from the 90's. It's worth checking out for theme, mood, and setting.
Yeah, I'm working on an urban fantasy setting where vampires, shifters, magicians, fairies and so on all rub shoulders. It's very kitchen sink. Unlike certain other settings, they're written as coexisting rather than arbitrarily segregated.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 07, 2023, 01:22:19 PM
I see your Hunters of the Damned and rise you my Night Stalkers
I chose my approach because I dislike portraying "shadow agencies" as heroic (when we're living through the evils of unaccountable unelected bureaucrats) and organized religion as something untrustworthy (when its believers are the ones often targeted by said unelected bureaucrats).
If anything I'd be inclined to make such a secret agency a tool of the monsters to conceal their presence and depredations from the world and have an alliance among those the monsters target be more informal where the only reliable resources are what the PCs themselves bring to their fight. The focus would be on relying on each other (and God) rather than having an agency to bail you out.
The State wouldn't be able to save you from the monsters in my setting... they are the thralls of the monsters. It's easier to portray the monsters as horrific when they also hold all the power.
I'm not doing a particularly ecumenical or agnostic setting. As in Dracula, it will be expressly Catholic (Roman or Orthodox) elements that work against the demonic forces. Magic for the protagonists will be exclusively the rites of the ordained, charisms of the blessed, and the innate powers of the children (Merlin, as in legend, is a Cambion... so too any PC spellcasters).
I aim to paint in bold colors rather than muddied tones.
Something I toyed with was the Inquisition actually being masterminded by monsters to get mortals attacking each other, making it easier to prey on them and avoid notice. This works best with emotional vampires and the like.
Also, I don't see a difference between unaccountable unelected bureaucrats in government versus those in organized religion.
Quote from: Aglondir on May 07, 2023, 04:52:48 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 07, 2023, 01:22:19 PM
I see your Hunters of the Damned and rise you my Night Stalkers:
In this game there are no sparkly or angst ridden monsters, the monsters are supernatural predators and only you stand between these creatures and the unknowing masses.
Welcome to Night Stalkers, the Supernatural exterminator team of Bureau 51.
Monsters exist, they are the apex predators of this unsuspecting world. Vampires, Werewolves, Phaeric beings and other things that go bump in the night and prey on the weak.
In Night Stalkers you play the role of one of the few that are aware of the supernatural menace that lies beyond the light.
You have been recruited by a shadow agency that exists beyond governments and organized religion, you can't trust any politician, religious leader, journalist (maybe with the exception of the ones working for tabloids like Weekly Weird World News –and half of them are just con-men publishing whatever will give them the most clicks–), law enforcement or celebrity.
Night Stalkers. Walking the edge between an unsuspecting humanity and the creatures that walk among us.
Are you a human fighting monsters, or a monster fighting monsters? What is the supernatural menace? Is it other monsters, or something worse?
The strong point here is all of the characters work for the same Agency, which explains why they work together rather than squabble or fight each other. Also, you can have mission-based adventures, which solves the "What do the players do?" question.
There are many games out there with this theme. The latest one I read was Monte Cook's World of Darkness. It's not what you think. The premise is very different than the classic WOD from the 90's. It's worth checking out for theme, mood, and setting.
Mostly humans fighting monsters, but I'm toying with the idea of introducing Damphirs and maybe Frankenstein's Monster.
The supernatural menace are all the black witches (White witches are good guys), licanthropes, vampires, ghouls, demons, etc.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 07, 2023, 05:25:14 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 07, 2023, 01:22:19 PM
I see your Hunters of the Damned and rise you my Night Stalkers
I chose my approach because I dislike portraying "shadow agencies" as heroic (when we're living through the evils of unaccountable unelected bureaucrats) and organized religion as something untrustworthy (when its believers are the ones often targeted by said unelected bureaucrats).
If anything I'd be inclined to make such a secret agency a tool of the monsters to conceal their presence and depredations from the world and have an alliance among those the monsters target be more informal where the only reliable resources are what the PCs themselves bring to their fight. The focus would be on relying on each other (and God) rather than having an agency to bail you out.
The State wouldn't be able to save you from the monsters in my setting... they are the thralls of the monsters. It's easier to portray the monsters as horrific when they also hold all the power.
I'm not doing a particularly ecumenical or agnostic setting. As in Dracula, it will be expressly Catholic (Roman or Orthodox) elements that work against the demonic forces. Magic for the protagonists will be exclusively the rites of the ordained, charisms of the blessed, and the innate powers of the children (Merlin, as in legend, is a Cambion... so too any PC spellcasters).
I aim to paint in bold colors rather than muddied tones.
I only said religious leaders, as in the commie at the Vatican, not The Church as a whole. My totally not a cleric is called The Blessed, he doesn't cast spells, he prays for and/or performs miracles, I'm basing it directly from Christian prayers.
The Bureau isn't a governmental agency, it was funded by the Knights Templar, it has had many different names at different places and times. Guess you missed the point about it existing beyond governments.
So I don't get from where you pulled out the Government saving ANYONE, or the part of it being somehow AGAINST religion.
Cambions are the offspring of demons, ergo bad guys.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 07, 2023, 05:38:32 PM
Something I toyed with was the Inquisition actually being masterminded by monsters to get mortals attacking each other, making it easier to prey on them and avoid notice. This works best with emotional vampires and the like.
Also, I don't see a difference between unaccountable unelected bureaucrats in government versus those in organized religion.
Can't speak for ALL religions or even for ALL Christian denominations but the Vatican IS a government filled with unelected bureaucrats that constantly flaunt justice and the law (see the musical chairs game with the pedo priests). As with ANY human institution it can (and IMHO has) be corrupted at the higher levels, but I'm sure the local priests aren't all like the leaders.
Which is why in my game you work OUTSIDE governments and beyond the control of religious leaders.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 07, 2023, 06:33:47 PM
The Bureau isn't a governmental agency, it was funded by the Knights Templar, it has had many different names at different places and times...
Excellent! I love the Templars. But I read somewhere that if you like them you're fascist, or something. Is that really a thing, or is it just woke hysteria?
The Templars have been featured in conspiracy theories and fiction, as both heroes and villains, but I've never heard of any connection to fascism before you just mentioned it
Quote from: Aglondir on May 07, 2023, 08:05:48 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 07, 2023, 06:33:47 PM
The Bureau isn't a governmental agency, it was funded by the Knights Templar, it has had many different names at different places and times...
Excellent! I love the Templars. But I read somewhere that if you like them you're fascist, or something. Is that really a thing, or is it just woke hysteria?
In current year anything and everything is fascism or leads to it. The only connection I can think of is some white identitarians stealing the Deus Vult war cry, and even then I'm not sure that was a Templar exclusive thing.
Lets assume the fascists really like the Templars... So what? Hitler was a vegan and loved dogs, nazis drank water...
I refuse to allow the woketards to gift everything to the fascists just because they hate me.
If they start Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeing once I publish it... Well, that's free publicity.
Just a random reference, the Templars feature as good guys in Katherine Kutz's modern fantasy series, The Adept. What I read there make some think well of them. (Of course it's fiction...)
The Templars are the one "good" faction in the Secret World MMORPG, where they're disciplined monster hunters and crusaders trying to protect humanity from the supernatural evils that plague the unsuspecting world. I use them as inspiration to a certain extent for my own Templars, in an urban fantasy setting I've been working on, on and off, where they're one of the few "good" secret societies in the world. Though, all secret societies are shady to some extent or another.
But my Templars are more like Gnostic mystics in possession of ancient esoteric lore and religious artifacts that they collected during the Crusades, and are heavily involved in occult practices and such, with monster hunting being an important, but somewhat secondary role for them to dealing with esoteric lore. The principal Christian secret society in my world is called Gladius Dei, which was the (made up) monster hunting arm of the Inquisition, and still secretly works for the Vatican in investigating and purging supernatural threats. They tolerate the Templars, but keep them at arms length, for being heretics and dabbling in the occult.
I was thinking of having two groups of templars, one good and one evil. The evil branch descends from the priests who opposed Akhenaton, who was trying to convert Egypt to Christianity but failed and was assassinated, causing his allies like Moses to flee Egypt with their faith and become the ancestors to nomadic peoples like the Bohemians.
Anyway, the same models I described for designing vampires can also be applied to other urban fantasy characters. Is there one type of hunter/werewolf/magician/whatever in the world, or several?
Copyright prevents me from just copying Hunter: The Vigil (though I doubt Paradox would care enough to sue if I did), but I do liberally take inspiration for concepts in my listing of monster hunting organizations. For example: one of my organizations is basically Cheiron with added zoanoids from Guyver, and other references like to Resident Evil (history of causing small scale zombie apocalypses when experiments go disastrously wrong) or Hellsing (artificial vampires created and monitored using magic microchips).
I haven't really delved deep into multiple vampire types for my world, since mine is supposed to be a more broad urban fantasy setting, where vampires are really not the focus, but more like one more out of many types supernatural creatures. And I don't want it to get too bogged down with details. But I do plan on including Feral vs "True Vampires", as part of a transitional process people undergo when transforming into vampire, where those who fail to adapt completely (likely more than half the time) go feral and turn basically into glorified ghouls. And only the top candidates manage to achieve true vampire status.
There are more types of shifters, focused on different animal types, like wolves, bears, rats, cats, ravens, etc. But all shifters are humans who have become infused with an animal spirit that they struggle with and transforms them into shifters. And that spirit may pick people due to qualities observed in them, if they kill a sacred animal of their type or best a shifter in single combat, or when called through special rituals. But the selection process is uncertain and spirits may reject candidates for any number of reasons.
Each shifter animal type has their own variant bonuses along with certain stats common to all shifters, as well as variations in their culture and society. With wolf shifters/spirits generally being more focused on close knit family groups with strong familial bonds. While cat shifters tend to be independent spirits who pick whatever individual strikes their fancy and have little social organization outside of occasional "litters" formed for protection. And rats shifters are notorious for fooling random homeless people, street urchins and outcasts into becoming shifters by performing spirit calling rituals on them without their knowledge of what's going on, etc.
Fey have a bunch of different types, cuz they're a whole category of otherworldly creatures, including elves, dwarves (Nordic style), sylphs, goblins, jinn (Middle Eastern fey), ogres/oni (Japanese ogres), etc. And fey society is divided into regional kingdoms located within realms in overlapping sections of the Otherworld ruled by a king or queen, allied to a Fey Court (factions), including Light Court (light fey), Shadow Court (dark fey), Domestic Court (domestic fey) and Wild Court (elemental and sylvan fey).
I haven't gotten into specific hunter organizations yet (other than Templars and Gladius Dei, which are more like secret societies that also hunt monsters, and I only have cursory details on for so far). But I did work out some common types of monster hunters (which may sometimes overlap), in terms of theme or focus, including:
Clinkers: Monster hunters specialized in hunting fey. Reference to clinking sound of metal, such as cold iron used to hunt fey.
Exorcists: Monster hunters specialized in hunting demons.
Hunter Incs: Monster hunters funded by big corporations.
Lab Baggers: Monster Hunters specialized in capturing supernatural creatures on behalf of labs that conduct secret experiments.
Ragtag Gangs: Monster Hunters without specialty, who will hunt anything that crawls in the night.
Skinners: Monster Hunters specialized in hunting shifters.
Stakers: Monster hunters specialized in hunting vampires.
Undertakers: Monster hunters specialized in hunting undead creatures other than vampires.
Witch Finders: Monster hunters specialized in hunting cultists and magicians.
Most of this stuff is still a work in process and may undergo changes and renaming over time.
Neat.
I'm working on some stuff, and aside from unpredictability in monster hunting, the multiple kinds of vampire thing is useful for devising side quests. Just watch a bunch of vampire movies or read reviews, then use that as inspiration. The multiple types conceit means you don't even need to work very hard to integrate the idea.
For example: a side quest where you help the head vampire of a vampire gang find his soulmate before he turns 100 and he and his gang spontaneously die. Why does he think this will happen? Who cares, it's funny!
As you can well imagine, the tone of my campaigns is campy and tongue-in-cheek. There's no way I'm playing this genre seriously.