D&D 5e has only two kinds of proficiency (well, three, if you count expertise). You either have it or you don't. This is nice and simple, but sometimes one hungers for a more robust approach.

Are there any systems that do multiple tiers to skill proficiencies but still keep it simple and not too much of a headache?

Is there a way to implement such a concept in 5e? Maybe like, if you take proficiency twice in a single skill, instead of it doing nothing, you get an extra +2 or something. The hard part is figuring out how to do it without breaking the game since everything's so tightly set number wise.

What you are describing is a side effect of the scaling proficiency bonus.  If you want to tweak that, you'll have to reduce or even remove the proficiency bonus and replace it with something else.  Whether or not the results will be worth the increased complexity is the question.

After much consideration on that point, I rather reluctantly left out a scaling proficiency bonus in my d20-based system design. Instead, I've got one set of broad proficiency options and one set of narrow ones, with each set allowed to be taken twice and each one giving a +2 bonus (for a total of +8).  The weapons have an analogous but not exactly the same design.  Ditto spells.  Part of the reason was that I explicitly did not want "skills", weapons, and spells to scale the same way.  That was what pushed me over the edge and made dropping a single scaling proficiency worth the cost.

You'll note that it was a lot easier for me do that in building a system from the ground up than in trying to modify 5E that way.  I wouldn't do it with 5E--too many side effects into other systems and their various edge cases would eat up any gain from the change.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 31, 2020, 12:06:50 AMIs there a way to implement such a concept in 5e? Maybe like, if you take proficiency twice in a single skill, instead of it doing nothing, you get an extra +2 or something.

Pathfinder 2e has a similar concept, with skills being broken down into four ranks: Trained, Expert, Master and Legendary. Each rank basically gives you a cumulative +2 bonus. I'm not sure if a +2 bonus is good enough for a whole feat in D&D 5e, though, given that in 5e one feat equals a +2 bonus to an entire ability score. But maybe if the feat gave you one skill rank in three skills or so, it might be worth it.

It's easier to just change the way you interact with skills as a DM.  For example, if you are looking for multiple possible tiers of say a knowledge skill (History, for example), then you can decide certain pieces of information that will be gained for having the skill, certain pieces for having expertise in the skill, and certain pieces for what the player rolls on their skill roll.  It provides more granularity to skills without adding too much complexity and messing up the math of the system.  This way you always get something of value for having the skill (so you don't have the untrained guy who rolled a nat 20 make your skill irrelevant, assuming you even let them roll, which I don't), because you will get info that is not able to be acquired by rolling.  I find this rewards player investment and makes them feel like they are more competent.

There are four levels of proficiency in 5e:

A - None.
B - Half-proficiency.
C - Proficiency.
D - Expertise (double Proficiency).

Most PCs can only access A and C.

Which is a mistake - ANY PC should be able to access expertise with multiclassing, IMO. They might have fixed it with Tasha's, not sure.

I think this is enough. Giving someone half-proficeny is rarely game-breaking; make you can trade one Proficiency for two half-proficiencies, etc.

Of course, you could just let player distribute "skill points" as they with, up to double proficiency. It is not going to break the game and you might have a champion who is a decent wrestler if with a little house-ruling.

(also, TOOLS are a different matter, although the game indicates they aren't; the only tools that are as useful as a skill are thieves' tools, IMO).

Another example:

In my own game, I do primary, secondary and tertiary skills, which gives you a bonus based on your level - three thirds, two thirds and one third. So, a level 12 Fighter has +12 to attack, maybe +8 to athletics and +4 to perception. And so on.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 31, 2020, 10:24:24 AM
There are four levels of proficiency in 5e:

A - None.
B - Half-proficiency.
C - Proficiency.
D - Expertise (double Proficiency).

Most PCs can only access A and C.

Which is a mistake - ANY PC should be able to access expertise with multiclassing, IMO. They might have fixed it with Tasha's, not sure.

I think this is enough. Giving someone half-proficeny is rarely game-breaking; make you can trade one Proficiency for two half-proficiencies, etc.

Of course, you could just let player distribute "skill points" as they with, up to double proficiency. It is not going to break the game and you might have a champion who is a decent wrestler if with a little house-ruling.

(also, TOOLS are a different matter, although the game indicates they aren't; the only tools that are as useful as a skill are thieves' tools, IMO).

Another example:

In my own game, I do primary, secondary and tertiary skills, which gives you a bonus based on your level - three thirds, two thirds and one third. So, a level 12 Fighter has +12 to attack, maybe +8 to athletics and +4 to perception. And so on.

Tasha's does add feats to allow expertise for classes that don't get it.  So most characters have access to A, C, and D on your list, as long as you allow feats.