How useful do you think having details about this in a setting is?
What about mechanics?
Has anyone actually ran a "trial" (be it where their character was the accused, the prosecution, the defense, judge, or just a spectator)?
I'm curious about people's feeling about this, particularly for fantasy settings. In my FtA!GN! book, I have an extensive set of mechanics on laws, courts and trials in the civilized regions of The Setting.
RPGPundit
I've run one trial in a fantasy setting, after a PC killed a Fey creature that used magic to enchant his companions into a slumber. A few games later a number of Elves tried to capture that PC, and Try him. The trial ended up being held during the combat.
Details are probably always useful in a society where the PC would be running into the legal system. Mechanics, on the other hand, would probably only be useful if the characters where intended to clash with the legal system on purpose. I've been wondering if such a thing would be worthwhile to add to a cyberpunk setting; I haven't had much experience with the setting to know if it would really fit in.
I haven't been the GM behind any trials, but I have been the accused a few times. I believe that everytime it's been done, we were either railroaded by the judge (the npc judge) through bribery, railroaded through evidence manipulation, or it was all merely a show for the public/our enemies.
I do think that a set of laws, even if it can differ from region to region, can add much needed detail to the setting. I GM'd a 4e session a few weeks ago where the PCs planned on letting a thief that had stolen a national treasure escape once they had retrieved the artifact because they thought the crime itself was rather weak. That's a PC for ya... always having their own sense of morals.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256180How useful do you think having details about this in a setting is?
What about mechanics?
Has anyone actually ran a "trial" (be it where their character was the accused, the prosecution, the defense, judge, or just a spectator)?
I'm curious about people's feeling about this, particularly for fantasy settings. In my FtA!GN! book, I have an extensive set of mechanics on laws, courts and trials in the civilized regions of The Setting.
RPGPundit
I've only run one trial and that was in a
Cyberpunk 2020 game where the PCs had to prove that an AI computer should be granted the same rights as a human under the law. I guess it was pulled off OK because the players enjoyed it, but I wouldn't want to make courtroom drama a regular thing in my games. It was a lot of work on my part to make it seem real enough to keep the players involved.
While I had a good experience in that, I don't think the rules would be important enough to keep around for this kind of scene/adventure. Keep a list of common crimes and punishments, but let everything else be at the whim of the individual GM who knows their group the best and can determine if a courtroom drama would be entertaining for them or not.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256180How useful do you think having details about this in a setting is?
What about mechanics?
Has anyone actually ran a "trial" (be it where their character was the accused, the prosecution, the defense, judge, or just a spectator)?
I'm curious about people's feeling about this, particularly for fantasy settings. In my FtA!GN! book, I have an extensive set of mechanics on laws, courts and trials in the civilized regions of The Setting.
Mechanics and use of Law is useful as fleshing out a setting and the type of game you want, but too much of it and in my experience players snap out of having fun in a game and are reminded of stuff in the real world they're gaming to not be reminded of! ;)
2 Examples: Traveller & Tekumel
1) TravellerI helped co-run a trial for a Traveller game. Played the Hiver judge / prosecutor / policehiver. The party had trashed a bar or something and tried to run incurring more violence in the attempt. Some got caught (running into cops is not recommended nor is drawing weapons on them). Took up about 2 sessions, one for prison & prep, the next for the trial and sentence. To this day the players remember blue footballs ("soccerballs") and have little desire to run into any Hivers ever again. (hiverhandwave) Traveller's Bwaps are also good for the more bureaucratic types along with Vilani lawyers, both sticklers for procedure and paperwork. Triplicate is just the start...
That being said, too much hassle, too much red tape, and the players start having flashbacks of waiting in line at the bank, having to pay their taxes, balancing their checkbooks, etc. and you instakill any potential fun in the game.
A good example is the example red tape adventure that's in almost every edition of Traveller under various names. All of them suck. A list of bureaucrats, what departments they cover and what forms they provide + how to bribe or bypass them does not make a fun adventure. This is an understatement. Most groups I know would either head right back out into space and/or blast the entire port into glass. And I'd cheer them on.
2) Tekumela wiki entry on Tekumel's legal system (http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/tekumel_mush/law?wikiPageId=201192)
Tekumel has an extensive legal and honor system post-Empire of the Petal Throne (which boiled down to "Get Caught? Get impaled." x.x). Ranging from exchanges of apologies, proper greetings and/or gifts, to payment, blood payment, courts or imprisonment, to duels, impalings or sacrifice. In T:EPT ruleswise this takes the form of lists of (blood) payments, social duel rules, information on duels and writeups of the relevant Palaces of the Realm (government departments) and Temples for how they deal with violations. One can run negotations, honor slights and gains, duels, and punishments with all that. Oh and assassins, thieves and secret societies.
It worked pretty slick for me, and Tekumel honor is fairly Asiatic enough I could always fall back on wuxia and samurai flicks. Or failing that Biblical & ancient Middle Eastern. Always hewing to form and presentation above all but with that never shutting out the opportunity for personal interest and scheming.
The threat and proceedings were usually enough, when stakes were readied or bureacrats unfurled scrolls the players knew it was usually either time to move on or not to do *that* again. They also learned to use the system as another tool in their toolkit against their enemies and an aid to the party.
I ran a trial once in StarCluster where some of the PCs were captured trying to steal a priceless antiquity - an ancient wooden Guaru mask which had survived the glaciation of Glask, the original Guaru home world. The archeological council put the PCs on trial. One PC successfully argued his innocence with a beautiful defense, but the others were judged guilty and sentenced to various terms. The PCs who weren't captured got away, though without the mask.
The scenario was the Nugik Adventure, which I subsequently published. It's designed to keep tempting the PCs to go a little bit further across the line into wrongness. None of the PCs initiallly knows what they are there to do, but they gradually become more and more involved in illegalities. At each point of decision, the smart choice always seems to get deeper into the mess, until the PCs suddenly find themselves thinking things like "If I just kill this innocent student, I can get away and be rich!" Of course, the stupid choice that is always there - let's just give ourselves up and throw ourselves on the mercy of the court - is the only morally and ethically defensible choice, and the sooner they take it, the better their treatment will be. Few take it.
I've run it several times since, each time with a very different outcome. Once, for example, one of the PCs convinced a couple other PCs to give themselves up to the authorities because he saw the others doing things they would never have normally done to protect the "investment" they had already made in the project. He got off with a very light sentence. In that case, three of the other PCs eventually got away with the mask and murder, now living on the run as rich criminals somewhere in the Cluster. One was captured, and the book thrown at him.
Over the years, I've done many trials, but the ones in this scenario have always been superior.
-clash
Added: I forgot to mention that the PC that was exonerated in the first example above had been a policeman, and had a couple ranks of Law skill. He didn't argue his own case, but primarily designed the case with assistance from a lawyer. He first separated his case from those of the others - on the grounds that he had voluntarily surrendered while the others had been taken fighting - then won big points in evidentiary issues, and was able to successfully cast doubt on his own participation in the mishegas. Since the Council couldn't prove anything against him, he was acquitted. The others had no knowledge of the Law, and were unable to help much in their own defense.
In the Viking campaign I ran most of the legal wrangling took place before the trials began. In an inheiritance trial the PCs paid for a famously long-winded chieftan to speak in favor of the son of their (dead) enemy to give them more time to ransack the estate. In a land dispute case there was a long adventure that revolved around trying to influence the judges before the trial began. One of the judges actually cared about the legal issues at stake, which very much confused the PCs :) Bribery, obstruction of justice and blackmail were very fun for all involved...
In my fantasy settings they are usually very short and involve either truth spells or magic to determine/reconstruct the guilty party/crime. Thus, they do not last long nor are particularly interesting.
Sci-fi or low fantasy can be more interesting and in those I have everything from involved investigations to trial by combat. I don't think I have ever had a special mechanic just for trials though. Skill systems usually cover it well enough.
Bill
In Nobilis, Lord Entropy's decrees enforced by the Locust Court ("thou shall harm none who has done no harm", for instance, or "treat no beast as your lord", or "thou shalt not love another") form a major constraint on the actions of the characters, especially because the most significant negative repercussions of their actions tend to be social in any case. Just about any starting character might, say, extinguish the sun or split the Earth in half or wipe out most of the human species, but something so drastic would earn them powerful enemies among their peers and rivals, as well as cause devastation which couldn't be expected to go unpunished since it threatens the security of the universe. (It also goes together with the setting conceit that the entire world in itself is someone that you have to learn to live with, a living thing that can either love or hate you and act accordingly.) In some ways the Court acts a little like Paradox from Mage: The Ascension, if Paradox sued you before bashing you around. Then again, since these are actual laws in the sense of a legislation, there are of course ways to find convenient loopholes or break them discreetly, and laws can always be overturned.
I did it fairly frequently in an old Birthright campaign. There were no actual rules for it, but we just adjusted the context of current rules within the game. You had Law holdings, which raised taxes. There was also a Construct action in the game to increase the value of your holdings (whatever they were, either Law, Guild, temple etc). You could spend Regency points to affect your chances of success and opposed parties could do the same.
I wanted a prominent Guilder (and smuggler) out of my hair. So instead of going off on an adventure to get rid of him, i wanted to build a case against him and put him on trial. We used the Construct action as if we were improving my Law holding, but instead applied it to the outcome of the trial, with a bit of roleplaying of the court action. We abstracted it that much (like most of the rulership actions in the game) because i was in the middle of a war against a neighbouring nation.
I think it really depends on the setting. By legal system I take it you mean just the criminal aspect of it (which includes enforcement), which would seem the most relevent to the PCs.
For city based campaigns I think it could be interesting.....WFRP at least the first edition paid some attention to this aspect esp City of the White Wolf and Power Behind the Throne and games IMO were richer because ot if.
Generally though for fantasy games I neglect this part of the setting although there Law, it's nothing as complex as the Court system or trials, although it is inspired by present day or historical elements , because I feel that real world court systems detracts from the fantastical elements in my games.
WFRP being the exception for obvious reasons.
Regards,
David R
Several members of my group were jailed and charged with the destruction of a noblewoman's property in our D&D 3.0 campaign. Our campaign is based on (roughly) Greek and Egyptian Mythos if such Mythos had made it to the 13th-14th century. There's an early Renaissance feel (minus any obvious references to gunpowder so far) to the campaign, but the legal system was significantly closer to the British common law system that evolved much later.
My character wasn't around at the time of the incident, but since he was the son of one of the wealthier merchant families, he lent some money and family prestige to the other PCs. Both sides argued their case before a judge and the DM added up all of the bonuses for each side (including a roll on the players' side) and rolled a check against it. I still don't know to this day what his check level was, but whatever it was he rolled incredibly well and the noblewoman won her case. Rather than being jailed outright, the noblewoman decided to use the characters as hard labor to remove the destroyed building. (This led to a further adventure as the building was cleared, revealing chambers beneath, but that's out of the scope of the thread.)
I don't believe that the DM originally intended the PCs to get embroiled in a legal dispute, but when it came up in the course of play he pretty much winged it based on the British and American common law he was familiar with. He did make a nod toward the nobility to slant it heavily in favor of the nobility, but it definitely was a bit out of place with the rest of the campaign. The one thing I took out of this as a player was that you'd better be prepared for anything; fights are one thing, but being embroiled in a legal dispute where you have significantly less control over the outcome is another. As a prospective DM, examining how you want justice handled in a campaign is something you ought to give some thought toward. Not all campaigns have cities governed in a purely dictatorial fashion, and guilds/merchants/nobles will all have an influence on things. How that works is up to you, but drawing upon history is always helpful.
--Mike L.
I have run legal cases in Legends of the Five Rings and Warhammer Fantasy.
The L5R case played out as a race against time to find the evidence and then get a high enough ranking noble to present said evidence before the daimyo simply called for seppeku of the PCs. They failed...went ronin...and died as honorless scum who disgraced their families and managed to slay some innocents along the way while the true villain prospered. A very fun FUBAR was had by all!
The Warhammer trial ended badly too. Mostly because the Trollslayer would not shut his mouth and the other PCs did not disown him fast enough. They were sentenced to hang, but fortunately they had made some strong friends among the nobility who had them snuck out of Talbeheim. And thus began their new life among the Border Kings...
Once, I was going to run a trial in Traveller, but the one character who escaped stole a starship and sent it spiralling into the Lord's palace. I guess he figured it was cheaper than a lawyer.
Quote from: Spinachcat;256586The Warhammer trial ended badly too. Mostly because the Trollslayer would not shut his mouth and the other PCs did not disown him fast enough. They were sentenced to hang, but fortunately they had made some strong friends among the nobility who had them snuck out of Talbeheim. And thus began their new life among the Border Kings...
In my game, the Witchhunter character started accusing the prosecution of being witches/warlocks. She wove a Keyser Soze like tale of witchcraft, demon summoning and kidnap - which had nothing to do with the crimes they were charged with. It caused a riot !
Regards,
David R
Quote from: RPGPundit;256180How useful do you think having details about this in a setting is?
Fairly useful, but it depends on the game. Unless the PCs are expected to interact with the legal system, that space could probably be better used for the main focus of the game. D&D doesn't need legal system information, because its primary focus is on exploration and questing. Shadowrun definitely needs it because you play a bunch of criminals, who are likely to be caught eventually.
QuoteWhat about mechanics?
These are rarely going to be useful unless the game itself is focused on legal roleplaying. Just having some social skills in place is usually enough, with the addition of legal knowledge skills if the characters are expected to come into contact with the law.
QuoteHas anyone actually ran a "trial" (be it where their character was the accused, the prosecution, the defense, judge, or just a spectator)?
In an Exalted campaign I ran a trial where the PC Solars had been arrested and brought before a corrupt court. One PC took it on himself to learn about the local laws during their incarceration, and he headed up their defense. He managed to get them all out of the death penalty, and would have gotten them off if the judge hadn't been bought off by the demon they were hunting. But he couldn't get the boy who was travelling with them released, so they ended up breaking out anyway.
In a shadowrun game I ran a PC was arrested, but we didn't roleplay it. He just went to jail and got out later.
Villains and Vigilanties second edition had a couple of pages on legal matters including a breakdown of criminal code charges that I've found handy in just about every modern game I've ever run. This is topic that just isn't covered in most rpgs.