I recently finished reading this article on level design in Super Mario World, and I've been thinking about how I can apply lessons learned here to building dungeons in D&D.
http://thegamedesignforum.com/features/RD_SMW_1.html
A couple of concepts I got out of this:
'Composite' games, combining two genres and using the tools of one genre to tackle challenges in the other (ex. using platforming mechanics for combat I.E. jumping on monster's heads.)
Structuring levels around a 'cadence' of challenges evolving and mutating from a standard challenge.
As I think about how to apply this to D&D, my favorite trap calls to mind:
A simple rope bridge over a lake with bells and chimes hanging from the bridge across its length. Walking across the bridge makes noises, which attracts enemies.
The problem here is stealth; the party is trying to navigate the dungeon without calling attention from powerful enemies. If the party does call attention to themselves by ringing the bells, they will find themselves fighting on a precariously swaying choke point. The party will need to find some other way around.
If we break this challenge down to its component parts however, we find that this is really two challenges combined: the precarious rope bridge, and the alarm bells. This would be a challenge better suited to later parts of a dungeon than earlier parts, but I'm not sure if it would be more appropriate as an evolution of a standard challenge, and evolution of an evolution, or an evolution/expansion combining elements of two challenges.
Your thoughts?
I like a thematic dungeon or level, where the elements build up to be more difficult. So, it might start off with a rickety bridge over a shallow trench (so not likely to be fatal) and build up to ambushes from above, below or both, with extra traps, over more dangerous environments. And all the better if the players can figure out how to use the bridges to their advantage.
Similarly, I generally introduce unusual monsters in small numbers and a weak version so that the players have a chance to learn about it without getting killed, but so that there are later more powerful versions in greater numbers so that the effort of figuring out the monster is rewarded.
This would only work if you made your dungeon highly linear. I suspect for most D&D games though, the openness of the players' options makes it impossible. You can't control things nearly so much.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;882402This would only work if you made your dungeon highly linear. I suspect for most D&D games though, the openness of the players' options makes it impossible. You can't control things nearly so much.
Well, there's the horizontal dimension of dungeon building (the individual dungeon level) and the vertical dimension of dungeon building (upper levels down to lower levels, with difficulty increasing as you delve deeper.)
You don't want the dungeon to be too linear along its horizontal dimension, but the vertical dimension is generally linear by necessity.
*edit*
Of course, now I want to be cute and build a dungeon that flips the horizontal and vertical dimensions.
The dungeon consists of a long, great hall that starts off easy at one end and gets progressively more difficulty as you get deeper in.
But the hall also has many upper galleries for the PC's to explore. Rooms are generally of even difficulty with the rooms above and below them, and are connected to those rooms by way of stairs, chutes, and pits.
The horizontal dimension is linear, but the vertical dimension has branches and loops all over the place.
Quote from: Cave Bear;882442Well, there's the horizontal dimension of dungeon building (the individual dungeon level) and the vertical dimension of dungeon building (upper levels down to lower levels, with difficulty increasing as you delve deeper.)
You don't want the dungeon to be too linear along its horizontal dimension, but the vertical dimension is generally linear by necessity.
*edit*
Of course, now I want to be cute and build a dungeon that flips the horizontal and vertical dimensions.
The dungeon consists of a long, great hall that starts off easy at one end and gets progressively more difficulty as you get deeper in.
But the hall also has many upper galleries for the PC's to explore. Rooms are generally of even difficulty with the rooms above and below them, and are connected to those rooms by way of stairs, chutes, and pits.
The horizontal dimension is linear, but the vertical dimension has branches and loops all over the place.
That sounds like a Super Metroid type of map that would be fun. But it's hard to visualize in your mind or with a 2d map.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;882402This would only work if you made your dungeon highly linear. I suspect for most D&D games though, the openness of the players' options makes it impossible. You can't control things nearly so much.
It doesn't have to be highly linear, nor an absolute progression. Unless your dungeon is designed so that players randomly teleport to any room, there will be some that are nearer the entrance and likely to be encountered first, and areas that are locally linear. Like dungeon levels of graduated difficulty; that doesn't mean the players can't wander into the seventh level without visiting all of the preceding levels.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;882453That sounds like a Super Metroid type of map that would be fun. But it's hard to visualize in your mind or with a 2d map.
- Swap the dimensions to show height and length like this map.
Spoiler
(http://www.hexapolis.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/derinkuyu_map.jpg)
- Orient the main axis lengthwise and create one long sequence of rooms and corridors.
- Don't use any long vertical shafts.
- Put in a series of short vertical shafts going up or down from the main shaft.
This gives me an idea.
I should literally just take Super Metroid's map and convert it to a D&D dungeon.
People like Dyson Logos have actually done a whole series of side-view/vertical geomorphs that work perfectly for this sort of dungeon; as I recall, Jeff Rients's Wessex game used a dungeon that was almost exclusively of this type. A quick GI search should bring up all sorts of great material to use.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;882711This gives me an idea.
I should literally just take Super Metroid's map and convert it to a D&D dungeon.
At the risk of being banished from the boards (based on the responses on the previous thread on this) maybe you should check out Angry DM's megadungeon series. He's getting into the meatier parts where he is doing exactly what you are talking about.
Link (http://theangrygm.com/category/megadungeon/)
Quote from: KingCheops;882821At the risk of being banished from the boards (based on the responses on the previous thread on this) maybe you should check out Angry DM's megadungeon series. He's getting into the meatier parts where he is doing exactly what you are talking about.
Link (http://theangrygm.com/category/megadungeon/)
While I don't particularly like Angry DMs style in general, I do agree with him that Super Metroid is a great way to think about dungeons and how they're put together. It's not 1:1, but it can give a frame of reference that is often lacking in discussions of dungeon building.
We actually have a thread about his megadungeon series on here already.
Though I have to say I've grown tired of the rambling nature of his articles. Way too much noise.
I recommend the Alexandrian's series on Dungeon Design (he examines a lot of the issues brought up here).
http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon
The whole series:
http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/tag/jaquaying-the-dungeon
The rest of the Design articles:
http://thealexandrian.net/gamemastery-101
What about Pac-Man?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;882711This gives me an idea.
I should literally just take Super Metroid's map and convert it to a D&D dungeon.
I've used Doom maps in the past.
Just make sure your players aren't already too familiar with the maps you are going to use.
Quote from: Morandir;882763People like Dyson Logos have actually done a whole series of side-view/vertical geomorphs that work perfectly for this sort of dungeon; as I recall, Jeff Rients's Wessex game used a dungeon that was almost exclusively of this type. A quick GI search should bring up all sorts of great material to use.
Neat! I like to make my own maps, but I'm always interested in looking at examples for inspiration.
Quote from: Telarus;883118I recommend the Alexandrian's series on Dungeon Design (he examines a lot of the issues brought up here).
http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon
The whole series:
http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/tag/jaquaying-the-dungeon
The rest of the Design articles:
http://thealexandrian.net/gamemastery-101
Will take a look, thanks!
Quote from: RPGPundit;883509What about Pac-Man?
It could be really fun to try and model the ghost behaviors using D&D monsters.
Quote from: Cave Bear;883671It could be really fun to try and model the ghost behaviors using D&D monsters.
A maze full of magic fruits and wandering-monster regenerating undead.
Quote from: Cave Bear;883671I've used Doom maps in the past.
Just make sure your players aren't already too familiar with the maps you are going to use.
It doesn't surprise me that you'd use Doom maps, IIRC the main level designer for Doom was Jennell Jaquays of Caverns of Thracia etc. fame.
Yeah, the Alexandrian blog mentions that, and even had a link to Jacquay's "Halo Wars" video game map design essays. I found them on Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120301111442/http://jaquays.com/paul/gamedesign.htm
Quote from: RPGPundit;883969A maze full of magic fruits and wandering-monster regenerating undead.
A glass maze with blind undead which can only hear (but not see) the characters. Priestly Potions, when imbued, grants the characters high-level Turn Undead for a short period of time. Continued use of Priestly Potions gives the character a magical tolerance reducing the duration of the buff.
Quote from: Crabbyapples;884018A glass maze with blind undead which can only hear (but not see) the characters. Priestly Potions, when imbued, grants the characters high-level Turn Undead for a short period of time. Continued use of Priestly Potions gives the character a magical tolerance reducing the duration of the buff.
Fruit found growing in the dungeon contains seemingly harmless bugs with a reality warping effect; the 256th level of the dungeon drops off into oblivion!
*edit*
Also, the fruits bounce around (and can pass through warp tunnels) and award experience points when eat.
*edit2*
Quote from: Daztur;883995It doesn't surprise me that you'd use Doom maps, IIRC the main level designer for Doom was Jennell Jaquays of Caverns of Thracia etc. fame.
Doom even started as a D&D campaign gone awry!
I'm more of a Metroid-vania style of dungeon builder.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;884068I'm more of a Metroid-vania style of dungeon builder.
Wealths of inspiration those!
So I'm starting to form an image of a dungeon in my head right now.
I'm still going with the idea I had earlier, but now I see it as more of a Pueblo-indian style type-of-deal carved into the walls of a colossal cavern. Ladders and rope bridges abound.
'Levels' of the dungeon are vertically oriented so that you have to climb to explore them, and climbing is basic challenge of this dungeon.
There will be monsters that hide behind obstacles and hurl rocks, spears, and flasks of burning oil. You can't get around the obstacles, but you can get over or under them.
There will be tough, but sleepy monsters you can bypass with stealth. These monsters are often found guarding rope bridges lined with bells and chimes. Walking across the bridges awakens the sleeping monsters, initiating combat against terrible beasts with the adventurers fighting for their lives on precariously swaying choke points. Stealth, here, can be accomplished by bypassing the bridges I.E. climbing/swinging/jumping.
There need to be enemies that intercept our heroes whenever they try to climb, swing, or jump across obstacles. Giant bats seem like a good choice. Maybe stirges for the later levels.
Flying magic-users are a problem. There need to be traps and monsters to intercept them. Maybe giant spiders with large, silvery webs to ensnare flying creatures? Maybe the humanoid monsters of the dungeon harvest webs to make their ropes?
Falling down pits will be a common hazard, but the earlier levels shouldn't have such a steep penalty as 50' deep pits with poisoned punji sticks at the bottom.
Earlier levels should have deep pools of water at the bottom. There should be monsters in those pools.
I'm thinking:
Flying sting rays that leap out of the water to intercept people
Giant man-eating hermit crabs that wear treasures or treasure chests on their backs and fill the same role as mimics.
Carnivorous carp with a taste for dwarven flesh.
Later levels should have magma pits. These can be populated with fire elements.
There need to be undead monsters so clerics have something to do. Maybe skeletons that leap down cliffs on top of adventurers below, or desiccated zombies that fall out of spider webs. These would fill the same role as piercers.
The main hall should have some kind of huge, ponderous monster that the party can't kill right away, but that they can avoid easily enough. The purpose of this monster is to keep the party on the move.
I meant in the sense that you can have backtracking, and areas opened up when you do something in another part of the dungeon/maze, not whether or not it's 2 or 3D.
Ha, awesome ideas in this thread. I love the hermit-treasure-crabs!
Here's a flying stingray (a "Shadowmant") from Earthadwn for some concept art:
http://i.imgur.com/cs0gBWh.jpg
Quote from: Christopher Brady;884071I meant in the sense that you can have backtracking, and areas opened up when you do something in another part of the dungeon/maze, not whether or not it's 2 or 3D.
Definitely!
Of course, this being D&D, we can allow for a more free form approach where they improvise with new tools to find solutions to earlier problems rather than "This specific key opens that corresponding door you couldn't open earlier."
Tthe dungeon I'm brainstorming here should take a page out of Donkey Kong's book and feature 'power ups' that don't merely upgrade the players existing abilities but instead change the kind of game the players are playing (like how the hammer in Donkey Kong takes away your ability to climb ladders but allows you to destroy barrels, effectively changing the game from a platform game to an action game. The Super Mario games do this with power ups like the fire flower and the cape.)
New magic items:
Sword of Tactics; this magic weapon changes the game into a game of tactical grid-based combat. The sword of tactics can grant a variety of different magical effects depending on how the sword's user is positioned relative to monsters and other player characters on the battlefield.
Story Token; this magic item changes the game into a story game. To use the story coin, characters must first charge it by telling it a story about one of their past experiences. Once the coin is charged, the character may drop or throw the coin and expend its charge to alter the scenery in some way. The coin's magic may be used to make a chandelier appear, or a secret door reveal itself, or a river branch off, or anything else the player might imagine within reason.
(Sorry to antagonize the Pundit posting stuff like this, I'm just sketching out silly ideas.)
Quote from: Telarus;884101Ha, awesome ideas in this thread. I love the hermit-treasure-crabs!
Here's a flying stingray (a "Shadowmant") from Earthadwn for some concept art:
http://i.imgur.com/cs0gBWh.jpg
Is that the same game by the creators of Shadowrun? Or am I thinking of something else? Cool illustration in any case.
Yes, Earthdawn was a FASA game and the "lost history" of Shadowrun.
Currently there are no longer official connections between the games because the rights are held by different companies, but FASA Games (a subsidiary of the still existing FASA corp) is the current dev for Earthdawn 4th edition (after it had bounced around a few times).
This came up on RPG.net this week:
Quote from: Zeea;19879398Speaking of Sandy Petersen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Petersen)... he also worked for id Software on Doom and Quake. He made a huge number of maps for both.
You know what's awesome about Doom and Quake (and especially Heretic) levels? They use just enough architectural details and symbolism to give the idea of a location, but don't really concern themselves with realism. They usually have a plot excuse for why there's not as many buildings as there should be, or some normal areas are shaped weirdly, or whatever. But they just come out amazing, with lots of surprises and great ambushes and weird puzzles. And all three of them were heavily inspired by D&D (and Call of Cthulhu, in Quake's case, but the original plans for that were about a guy with a "belt of giant strength and hammer of thunderbolts.")
I really wish more published maps would follow suit. D&D dungeons are often a bit weird, but any other location? It's rather predictable in most cases, which would be fine except it seems like _every_ map is like that. That's a big issue with ruined city urban adventures in particular, since designers are usually more focused on practicality and realism than cool adventuring and surprises (but I do respect them for being able to work within the bonds of realism). Doom's E1M1 depicts a hangar, but it's a pretty weird one. Heretic's E1M1 depicts docks and a building next to them, and E1M5 is a small city, but while they're pretty and their theme is clear, they're not realistic at all.
I wish the old id Software and Raven Software folks would work together to make an OGL map compilation. Failing that, I'd love to just see Sandy Peterson's. He made "MAP 13: Downtown" for Doom II, probably one of the best urban warfare FPS maps ever made despite the buildings having utterly unrealistic interiors. I wonder what he could do with a D&D demon-infested warped city?
Anyway, overall, I just wish we'd see a move away from "dungeons should be practical and realistic" and "dungeons need ecosystems!" It was a bit eye-opening and clever back in the 90s when that started being a thing, but I keep finding dungeon maps and especially poster battlemaps with realistic layouts and I'm getting a little tired of them. Real places are great for reality, but I'd rather have twisting vine-covered spiral stairs up to portals (like one of Map 13's buildings) than a predictable apartment building.
(EDIT: Fixed some stupid wording on my part. Sorry about that.)
Quote from: Telarus;884220Yes, Earthdawn was a FASA game and the "lost history" of Shadowrun.
Currently there are no longer official connections between the games because the rights are held by different companies, but FASA Games (a subsidiary of the still existing FASA corp) is the current dev for Earthdawn 4th edition (after it had bounced around a few times).
I think I saw a discussion somewhere (Dumpshock forums?) about people converting Earthdawn's lizard men and mineral men (?) over to Shadowrun.
What about Candy Crush?
Quote from: RPGPundit;885173What about Candy Crush?
A trap door in the ceiling drops a flood of candy on top of any hapless adventurer who triggers it.
The next room contains a group of green-skinned, pig-faced orcs being terrorized by agitated avians...
Quote from: Cave Bear;885175A trap door in the ceiling drops a flood of candy on top of any hapless adventurer who triggers it.
The next room contains a group of green-skinned, pig-faced orcs being terrorized by agitated avians...
Actually, Pundit makes a good point about Candy Crush. It's a simple match 3 puzzle system that everyone whose ever seen Bejeweled gets. It can also be complex, but the core mechanic is the same. It doesn't change it's rules on you, and it makes sure you know them well, before adding another layer.
How does this apply to a RPG game? Well if a GM puts a puzzle for players to solve, no matter who you're aiming at to solve it, you should also have consistency AND the ability to deduce what is likely the end result. And that applies to mysteries as well as physical (in game) puzzles.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;885176Actually, Pundit makes a good point about Candy Crush. It's a simple match 3 puzzle system that everyone whose ever seen Bejeweled gets. It can also be complex, but the core mechanic is the same. It doesn't change it's rules on you, and it makes sure you know them well, before adding another layer.
How does this apply to a RPG game? Well if a GM puts a puzzle for players to solve, no matter who you're aiming at to solve it, you should also have consistency AND the ability to deduce what is likely the end result. And that applies to mysteries as well as physical (in game) puzzles.
Too true.
I've actually used the boardgame Mastermind as a puzzle in a D&D campaign I ran a while back. I regret that I didn't get to use it more often.
Though now I'm thinking about how one might use more puzzles that integrate more seamlessly with D&D's mechanics rather than introducing a mechanic as extraneous as an entirely different game...
There's a lot of good puzzle possibilities to be had with encumbrance rules, at least if you take the 'river-crossing puzzle' approach (you know, like the one with the fox, the goose, and the bag of beans.)
You introduce the concept of encumbrance with starting equipment. Then you complicate the concept of encumbrance with heavy treasures that may require the players to clear up their inventory. Then you complicate it even further by testing the player's logic with weird dilemmas.
A Bejeweled/CandyCrush style puzzle would make a great "time limit" or "delay" style puzzle. It's not solving it that's the problem, it's How Quickly can you solve it before XYZ.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;885176Actually, Pundit makes a good point about Candy Crush. It's a simple match 3 puzzle system that everyone whose ever seen Bejeweled gets. It can also be complex, but the core mechanic is the same. It doesn't change it's rules on you, and it makes sure you know them well, before adding another layer.
It also has some kind of storyline, which follows into the subsequent games in the series. Not that I have been able to make the least bit of sense out of it!
Quote from: RPGPundit;885702It also has some kind of storyline, which follows into the subsequent games in the series. Not that I have been able to make the least bit of sense out of it!
I just googled that. I should not be surprised that Candy Crush Saga has its own wiki.
Quote from: RPGPundit;885702It also has some kind of storyline, which follows into the subsequent games in the series. Not that I have been able to make the least bit of sense out of it!
Which means that if you take it into a RPG context that the puzzles should maintain a logical consistency within the framework of the campaign world.
Yeah, I admit I'm over thinking a simple match 3 puzzle game, but frankly, I'm having a hard not seeing how it doesn't have good lessons to take, even if I don't care for the game myself.
In Japan it also has the weirdest fucking commercials.
Quote from: RPGPundit;886832In Japan it also has the weirdest fucking commercials.
Japan has the weirdest fucking commercials for EVERYTHING.
I've learned to put in more mushrooms.
No seriously. Put some shrooms in your next dungeon.
Quote from: Spinachcat;886972I've learned to put in more mushrooms.
No seriously. Put some shrooms in your next dungeon.
That's what WoTC did with it's underdark adventure "Out of The Abyss". The 'shrooms man, the 'SHROOMS! Ones that made you grow, some that glow, ones that made you small, others made honest as a doll... *Froths at the mouth*
True.